rohanaka

Aw Wendy... this is all the next best thing to watching it "live"... Great job kiddo. And it brings back all the thoughts I had way back when about how "different" the use of music is in this film compared to a lot of other films by Ford.... that STILL have a lot of music in them.... but not so much acting as almost a CHARACTER in the film too. I don't know... I probably should go back and re-read myself to jog my memory... or better yet.... I STILL would like to just make some time this weekend and go back to re-watch the FILM... (a much better plan..ha.) Anyway... I say again.....TERRIFIC post, little young'un! :-)

Look for the Crime Series to be posted this weekend along with a long-thought lost classic from the Crime Series. Lynn... Now I am on the edge of my seat for sure!!! YOU are quite the quick wit, young'un. Anyone who is a real fan of Gloria Grahame .... or even a just someone (like me...) who enjoys her films but still has a LONG way to go to catch up to "devoted status" (ha) can appreciate your very original and TRULY entertaining posts. What a great way to showcase both her #1 fan here.. (HIYA MOLO) AND the star too... all at the same time. Message was edited by: rohanaka.... because I am a poor speller sometimes... :-)

I want to see Molo's reaction before posting anymore. I think he has PASSED OUT from the excitement!!!!! (and ps... Is this film collection available in a DVD Box Set.... and are there any "Special Features" like the now famous PBS documentary: America's Sweethearts.... Gloria and Molo: A Hollywood Love Story ????? Ha... MOLO... we posted at the same time.... I see you have recovered!!! Ha! Message was edited by: rohanaka

OH MY GOLLY!! The INTRIGUE of it all!! (Sounds like Hawks had a way of keeping folks under his thumb) ha. I wonder now what we missed RE: Cherry's story line.

Howdy, White Hat HELLLOOO Mr. Grey Hat... Boy howdy you are on a ROLL lately... You are a "ramblin' dude" for sure. But Cherry never did anything bad. I think he was presented to us as a red herring. The way John Ireland plays Cherry, it makes you think he's hiding his true face. Did he have the potential to be bad? Most definitely. I could see him turning on anyone. That's a perfect way to describe him.... and I think that is why I had such hard time liking him. He was "the wild card" in this whole story...ha. And again... for a LONG time... I thought that would be MATT... but I guess this was one time when my "movie watching ESP" was a bit whacko...ha (ok... I confess... probably only ONE time of many...ha) That's how I viewed their relationship, as well. Sergio Leone actually steals the shooting competition scene for his film A Few Dollars More. I did not know that... I have never been a big Clint fan... I know I have seen some of his westerns... but I can't recall that one... I may have to check it out now, if only to see that part of it... because it was really one of the better parts of RR. I like how that all played out. But was he right to kill them for doing it? That's where the problem is. Simms (Hank Worden) says it best: Well.. you have me there...ha. I know I said it was gray... but THAT aspect of it clearly isn't.. and yes... I liked the line about trying to read the Lord in as a partner... it was a "wise" observation from someone who did not really appear to be that deep of a thinker...ha. (And ps... I liked this role for him too... he did a great job w/ it... but I always like him...) You, speechless? That'll be the day I know.... sad but true... there is WAY too much evidence to the contrary isn't there??? ( But I DID say... I was ALMOST speechless...ha. At least it wasn't an out right lie...ha.) I've yet to see a poor Duke performance. Not bad. Some are better than others... but I know I am a bit biased since he is my favorite. I haven't seen ALL of his movies yet.... but what I have always liked his performance. I've also seen Clift in A Place in the Sun, I Confess, and The Misfits. I like him most in A Place in the Sun, but he's brilliant in I Confess. I need to go look those up because I haven't seen ANY of them. Although I have read a LOT about The Misfits on here... I am not sure why I've never made a point of seeking that one out sooner... Believe it or not, I always think of the Fonz with this. The Fonz struggled to say he was "sorry" or "wrong." HA!! I still remember that too..ha. ("I was wuh... wuh.... wru...wru"") He never can say it can he??? :-) PS.. Ms Cutter.... According to interviews with Hawks, Wayne was concerned about Clift having the heft to carry the role. He didn't think that Clift would be believable in the fight scenes especially. Hawks convinced Wayne to work with him to make Clift beautiful. In the final fight scene, according to Hawks, Wayne was surprised at how well Clift handled the entire sequence I love these bits of intersting facts that you always bring in here... it is fun to get some of the story behind the story... And PSS... OllieT... DAVID VS GOLIATH...that's it exactly... OH.... and GREY DUDE: It's either that or Quiet Gal's burning supper again. Keep talking Mr. "I eat sawdust and LIKE it"... and I will get old Dunson to ride into town and plug YOU full of holes.... (and little Joanne Dru and I both will do NOTHING to stop him...ha) Oh... hey... I just thought of something.... I know of a self professed HAWKS fan... who has been STRANGELY silent in all of this..... WHERE IS that Mad Hat MOLO??????????? I figured he'd have mosied along in here by NOW for sure... (I dont' think he ever showed up for Rio Bravo either....) Don't tell me we have another one of those "Man From Laramie" situations.... Grey Guy.... I think this desperado has picked up some of your old bad habits...) WHAT HAVE I done with my rope?????

By saying thank you in the most civil of tones she acknowledges the business arrangement as if it were like any other deal?almost as if she didn?t have to grovel for the letter at all, as if the humiliation didn't even happen. ?Yes, you made me bend my knees at your feet but as you see I'm looking you straight in the eye and behaving better about our business arrangement than you are,? Leslie might be saying. There might be reason to argue as well that Leslie might not have looked upon Mrs Hammond as her equal, as woman-to-woman, considering some of the ways in which Leslie had referred to Mrs Hammond at other times. When she has the letter she stalks out---defiantly, I thought---as a sort of punctuation mark. Laffite... I think you have it... She was "humbled" by having to pick up the letter... but she was far from being humble. I think she was almost mocking Mrs. Hammond and had CLEARLY underestimated her. You can almost hear her thinking: "Here is the ignorant painted woman who NEVER loved her husband the way that I did... and only wants money now that he's dead.... I am FAR above her even down here on the ground than she is looking over me now...." I liked you comment about her leaving being a "punctuation mark". PS... Jackie... She would rather die with her dreams of the man she loved and plugged six or eight times than live with that weak man looking at her with a lack of reproach That's a good point... and I think this can be seen in how totally "beside herself" she gets in the scenes leading up to her blurting out the big "I still love the man...." statement. She can't STAND the party and all that is going on around her... as if she really WERE this innocent victim she'd been portraying all along... and it wasn't so much because she felt secretly guilty about getting away with murder..... it was more because the life she loved (and the love of her life) were gone and now she was STUCK there. I think when she knew it was finally "over" for her... she had a certain level of natural fear (she did try to scream) but... I do feel like all that long walk down the path leading out there... she really was glad it was almost over.

Woo hoo Miss Maven... thanks for the heads up on one of my new favorite actors.... I CAN'T go as far as to call him a "crush".. but lets just say I have a whole new appreciation for him the longer I hang out in here... ha. I am going to go request some "remind me' emails from the database right now!! :-)

Hiya Jackie... it has taken me all day to get back her to tell you.... I LOVED the screencaps you posted w/ the shower scene... Now, how romantic is that? On a scale of one to ten..... I give it a 35!!! :-) PS... OllieT... you are cracking me up!!! ha. Would we REALLY be worse-off?!! No...sad but true...

Even seeing her on her knees to Sondergaard was a jaw dropper for me the first time I saw this film. I know what you mean... it was a shocker...I agree with you... to see Bette Davis in that sort of setting was really shocking... I rather expected her to give Sondergaard a smirk instead and just turn and leave and tell the lawyer to pick it up on the way out... ha. But I think that Mrs. Hammond was NO shrinking violet either... ha. I meant to mention that I liked your comment to our beloved Mr. Osborne about how that scene played out w/ Sondergaard stepping back like that. I almost caught my breath... when she started to move... I wasn't sure which way she would go... because I half expected her to pull that dagger out.. THEN and THERE. And then when she moved back... it was as if.... she didn't want to even sully her own shadow w/ Leslie's hand.... Do you (the universal you) think she thought she might be reunited with Hammond, the man she still loved though she put enough holes in him to send him to the great beyond. Hmmm Ms. Cutter.... I hadn't thought of that... (I took it more that she was just relieved that it was all going to be over soon) But it could be possible she was hoping for an afterlife w/ him as well... I just had a thought... ha... if I believed in Karma and the whole reincarnation thing.... she could come back as a black widow spider... and then she'd end up devouring him all over again... ha. But at least she could go back to her "web spinning" again. :-) (There.... Miss Maven.... my first screenplay...That's probably about as good as I could get with one... ha.)

Is that your original material Oh my... thank you so much, Mr. Dobbs... for saying that... and yes... all that meandering musing came from me... ha. But I don't think I could ever write a screenplay... I am more of a "this is what I saw... and this is what I thought about it" kinda gal. I'm just glad that for once something I said may have come out making sense..ha. But thanks again (to you and others too) for the feedback. ( it means a lot) PS... Miss Maven... glad to hear I wasn't too off base on the rest of my theories on the money (I guess I am just a suspicious person..ha. I must watch too many crime shows) but that is how it all sort of played out for me. And I am glad you brought up Bette's hands.... when she was in the clinic and all you could see was the back of her head and her hands... some actresses never act THAT well w/ their face to the camera... it was perfect. SPOILER: Also... I agree w/ you thoughts on the dagger... It was definitely a sign that it was "judgement day". But I also wondered if they left it for her to take care of things herself.. (almost like a challenge) and then when she refused... by leaving it on the ground... then she was "called out" to meet the executioner instead. There is no denying she knew the end was coming. You could see it in her face... and she met it head on. It was almost like one of those prison movies where the condemned man takes his last walk down the long row of cells past his fellow inmates.... only this was a private prison and a private execution.... so she was all alone (maybe that's why the moon looked away at the end). Hmmmm.

Uncle Shiloh boxed them in - not really trapped by their faith. He knew their convictions and played out a hand knowing all along what their answer would be. In other words, he played them. Well there you have it... that it it exactly. Isn't it funny that in this musical movie, Travis is drawn to the soft music coming from Denver's guitar? I love the otherworldly quality of it..... here our boys are, out in the desert, and they almost think they are dreaming I really liked that part... "otherwordly" is the right description. And the sight of that wagon and those characters all set up out there in the middle of NOTHING.. just like they would have been in the middle of town.... almost comical.. and yet... nearly heartbreaking. I think they were all expecting to more or less just die where they sat. She's no angel. Ford brings us right down to earth I like the way Ford often uses women with less than perfect histories in his stories... they are often MUCH better people than the "pristine" perfect women in a lot of respects. Which makes me wonder.... why Frank's not here Well... last I saw of him... he was wading around in the Red River. Ha! Now I would have to get a map... but surely that can't be ALL that far away... Ha. :-)

Hello there, Miss Maven... Thanks for all the feedback. I feel like I am back in school reading my teacher's remarks on my latest book report... ha. I was up so late last night when I wrote all that, I was worried a bit that some of my ideas were a little out to lunch... or I guess I should say out to "early breakfast"..ha. That you have elevated the moon to a character elevates my entire raison d'etre in terms of my love for this movie There was just no getting away from that moon for me (or for Bette...ha) I really saw it as the silent witness.... but then again... not so silent. Wife vs. mistress angle. How pedestrian of me; paying accomplices...priceless. I hadn't thought of that. How many times have I seen the movie and hadn't thought of that. Geez!! Now this was the part of my post that I worried over the most... because I had not seen anyone else come to that conclusion. Yet that is how I started viewing it all as the whole thing played out. I hope I was not too off base... but it just seemed that way to me. I even went a little further with it in my mind...than I did in my post last night.. When it came time to "talk turkey" about how much the letter was going to cost.. I wondered if the entire thing was a set up from the beginning....because of Ong's comments about the price of the letter and how much money Crosbie had in his savings account. Fancy that amount was JUST the right amount of money to clean Crosbie out financially... and then how odd later on that this property comes up for sale owned by.... a "Eurasian", wasn't it?? And if it was a set up.... those who did it already KNEW he would not have the money needed to buy it.. because they made sure of it by making the amount he would need the same price as the letter. I don't know.... I may need to go back and watch that part again... but it just seemed to be ALL put together to torture her ( and all those connected to her... her husband and the lawyer) as much as possible to exact as much revenge as possible. Ok... maybe I have been watching too many "conspiracy" movies.... ha. I want to ask you about the dagger at the door.... Why do you think it was left there at first... and then removed? I have some "theories".... but I wondered what your take was on it. I won't say anymore just now, but would like to hear your thoughts. At any rate.... Thanks for letting me ramble on and on here. I really enjoyed this film a lot, and I am very glad to have had the chance to see it. And PS... thank you for the nice words... but NO... I would NEVER have been chosen to be the one sitting in that big red chair. I have NO doubt... TCM picked the cream of the crop for their fan programmer week. You all did a fantastic job.

The thing that makes the Cleggs or at least Uncle Shiloh so awful is that they know the mormons won't let them starve, due to their religious beliefs and their good-hearted ways. Uncle Shiloh is just as good at judging character as the other two men, but he does it for his own warped and selfish reasons. He sees that they are trapped into it by their beliefs. He then takes full advantage of the good people, with an aim from the beginning to take everything he can get from the group. He lets them do the hard work, while he and his sons sit back and wait, watching, like snakes. The well deserved whipping that his boy gets is simply used as an excuse for their future bad behavior.... the Cleggs would have done exactly the same thing had no whipping occurred. It just gave them a little extra venom..... Wow Jackie... nicely said. I think this aspect of things really serves to show the "bully-ish" nature of the Cleggs better than almost anything else. Because aside from being "users"... that is what they were... big, fat, ugly bullies. It is one thing to go head to head against people who may be willing to fight back... but it is another reason altogether to prey upon those who either can't... or have chosen not to... fight back. (and ps... not a criticism, but I don't know if I would choose "trapped" when it comes to the hold that their beliefs had on them, so much as I would say they had chosen to be "willfully obedient" to their faith.... because that sort of committment to turn the other cheek takes a VERY conscious effort... some are better at it than others. And some are still a work in progress.) :-) PS... Terrific Screencaps, little lady! Woo Hoo!! More REALLY terrific pics of Ben!!! (that was both a complement.. and a request!!) ha!!

Again, we have a hero, like Shane,. who takes his time, waiting to size up his options and his enemies..... I can't tell you how many shots in this movie are taken from over Ben Johnson's shoulder, so we see what he sees. In much of the movie, he is simply looking down.... I like Ben in these scenes the best. It indicates someone who really listens. He doesn't have to look to know what's going on. He is also a man who thinks before he speaks. Great insight, there Ms Favell... I really admire the way you are always able to find those "motivations" behind the camera angles and directing. This is so completely Bond's movie! He is just so huge an actor, and he carries off the role perfectly. This is my favorite performance, he is just what you want in a leader.... he is strong, persuasive, a little bombastic, but good-natured.... but most of all, he is open-minded. Because of his own faults, he knows life, and he knows what's right and wrong in the world, but also because of his own nature, he is non-judgmental. Adam Perkins is a righteous man, full of indignation and hatred of all things not like him.... we see the contrast in the two men. Elder Wiggs is a good man. This IS a great role of Bond... he is just so perfectly suited for the character. And you are right about the comparisons between him and Perkins... very well said. And PS... I get the impression that Bond is a little bored with brother Perkins as his constant companion and would love to have someone who he could play cards with. I bet you are right...ha. He had a hard time "fitting" into the mold all the way, didn't he? And PSS... I am jealous... because I have been trying to find a way to use the word "bombastic" for several days now... Wish I had thought of it sooner..ha You stole my thunder. HA!!

BEWARE: RED RIVER SPILLING OVER Hello Grey River Guy... What's with all this: "I agree with you" stuff??? ha. I was expecting to be "dunked" in the river by the likes of you...ha. :-) thought Cherry VALANCE (John Ireland) would turn on Matt, but he never did. He ended up being good... and the hothead in the film That's a GREAT way to look at him. Although I can't quite see him as necessarily "good"... I think maybe he just "chose the right thing at the right time" though and stuck with Matt. His OTHER choice (stand up and fight Dunson by himself) could have gotten him killed... if not by Dunson, then certainly by Matt.) And I DO think he liked Matt, for what it's worth. I think he saw him as a "friendly rival". (and Matt more or less saw him the same) And I kept waiting for the big "betrayal" moment too. I guess it DID happen... in a way... but not w/ Matt. He DID turn on Dunson. I guess everybody did. But Cherry seemed to be one of the few men who actually LIKED it. Really? I didn't see it as being all that grey of a film Oh... there might not have been "grey" but there WAS "GRAY"...ha. I think mostly what I was referring to was the "right and wrong" being a little blurry sometimes. WAS it wrong for Dunson to expect those men to follow through w/ their committment? He told them up front from the very beginning what they were getting into and he specifically told them DON'T sign on if you can't take it. And he didn't judge ANYONE who didn't want to go. So.... when things got a little "edgy"..... they got a little "gray".... sort of. There were other things too... but that is the biggest grey... I mean GRAY.... patch for me. (HEY!! Do you know that because of YOU I know can't even SPELL Grey with an A anymore w/out first changing it from an E... you've corrupted my spelling!!! ha!!) You never want to embarrass a man in front of other men, especially HIS men. Would a "father" want to kill his own "son" over such a thing? That's where it does become more of a stretch. But pride can be a dangerous motivator. Some will stop at nothing to be right, particularly men. Admitting one is wrong is a sign of weakness to some guys I think you have nailed it there.... reason takes a back seat when pride steps in. rohanaka: But honestly.. I thought the whole "woman" angle was not really done as well as it could have been Grey Guy: I agree with you. Ahhhh, Hawks Your kidding.... I am SHOCKED... you AGREE with me about the WOMEN???? I am almost speechless... (almost but not quite..ha.) You are right, the film didn't really need the female aspect, and it would have helped the ending if it wasn't in it. However, I do like the female angle of the film. I'm one who does believe a woman can make a man listen, even the toughest of men. Ok.. now I'm shocked....and confused...ha. Not really... I do see your point.. and Chris's too..(Chris.. I'll be back in a minute). It just didn't work for me as well as I wanted it to. Red River was one of the first westerns I watched when I got into westerns. In fact, it was my first Wayne film. I really liked it after my first viewing. I think the biggest reason why was because Wayne played a character I never expected to see from him. It made me look at Wayne in a very good way. Wow.. I'm impressed. And I like that you have been giving the Duke a fair chance.... And it probably stands to reason that you DID like him in this film.... He did a great job and his character was just so dark.... Mr. Noir. I like Clift and I thought he was very good in this film. I prefer him in other films, though What other Clift films do you like him in? I have only seen him in a couple... and up to this film... my favorite role for him was the slimy Maurice in The Heiress. My favorite scene is whenDunson and Groot (Walter Brennan) are attacked away from the first wagon train. I love the "flaming arrow" shot. I liked that part too.. I think that whole bit is one of the better parts of the story... I like how they decide not to outrun the Indians but rather just more or less sit down and wait for them to show up.... However, I believe the film really lacks high points. There are a few.... but not as many as I would like... I thought the scenes with the cattle (sometimes they flowed over the hills and rocks like water) were pretty well done. And I liked how they drove them into town and there were so many of them, they had to leave them in the street. That is STILL why I just can't "get" Dunson not "getting over" his "I'm gonna kill Matt" mindset. When he see's all that... but again... it's that "pride" thing, I guess. Fathers spend so much of their time showing and telling their sons how to become a man, just as Dunson does with Matt. Fathers want their sons to be strong and to make decisions, to stand on their own feet. Where fathers sometimes struggle with their grown sons is when they disagree with them. Here they teach their boy to do for self but when their boy goes against their wishes, they sometimes feel betrayed. The balance between pride and proud. Wow, look at you... that is TERRIFIC. Very well said, sir. Now it is my turn to agree with YOU!! :-) (I like how Jackie put it too... "stand up for vs stand up to") Good job wading around in the river here, sir. Very nice rambling. PS... Chris: The more he loses control the more I think he tries to keep it. It then escalates to him being by himself. That is a PERFECT way to describe Dunson and his state of mind. Though the female angle is small I can't imagine what else would have brought father and son together again. I doubt it would have been the money. I think between reading your words... and now the Grey Guy's... I am letting up a little on my thoughts about the "woman" thing... I guess they both DID have an integral part in the story line... I just wish maybe Dru's character at least had come off a little different.

Wow..... Miss Maven..... It has taken me a couple of weeks (oh who am I kidding?? It has taken me since SEPTEMBER) to get here.... but I have FINALLY gotten to see this film. Way back in late September: Miss Maven wrote: I hope I haven't over-hyped "THE LETTER And then Rohanaka replied: Well...you may or may not have...but it still sounds "list worthy" just from reading your post and viewing the trailer...I will keep an eye out for it. Woo HOO!! Cross another one OFF my list!!! And whoa BABY.... did you ever NOT "over-hype" this film. I have NO difficulty understanding your choice for THIS movie as your fan programmer pick. It sets a "standard" for good classic film drama to be sure. And I have never been a huge Bette Davis fan, and have only really liked her a LOT in a few different roles.... but I have to say... THIS film makes me totally rethink my opinion of her in a whole new way. Oh my golly... I really enjoyed re-watching your chat with our beloved Mr. Osborne too... a very nice way to put the whole movie into perspective both at the start... and at the finish of the film. Now before I go any further.... it is going to be next to impossible for me to talk about this movie without talking about THE STORY... so... *SPOILING* will occur.. reader beware. First I have to say... there is just so much "poetic" justice in this story. It is almost as if the whole thing is one big epic "poem". And the one doing the reciting... the watchful moon. After the opening credits.... the MOON is the first thing you see.... shining down on EVERYTHING. And let's face it... THIS is one crime that is NOT going to be able to be hidden.. I mean she more or less empties out a gun on a man w/ dozens of "ear" witnesses within a few hundred yards hearing the whole thing. But the moon is the only eyewitness against her... the moon sees it all... and for a moment... hides its face.... and hers as well... and a dark shadow crosses over everything. Is it the shadow of guilt? We don't know yet... but the moon does... and refuses to stay silent. And this time, instead of shining down on HER... it shines on the man laying dead, and shows her crime instead (as she retreats into the shadows). And then off and on... over the course of the film... the moon is there to remind her, "I saw what you did" and at times she seems willing to stare the moon down... as if issuing a challenge almost. Other times... she looks away, as if it is too much to bear. But it was really interesting... at the end of it all... when "justice" is being served (more on that in a minute) the moon hides its face and will not be a witness FOR her this time. I say again... poetic justice. I went in and re-read a lot of the posts and something I got to thinking about was the whole "money" angle with regard to the selling of the letter. Someone said on here that for Mrs. Hammond... it was NOT about the money but rather it was about making Leslie "grovel" at her feet. But I got a whole different perspective on this as I was watching. For me... The money was not to buy the letter.... it was to help Mrs. Hammond pay off her accomplices... because she had this whole thing planned out. And EVERYONE (including Ong) helped her do it... and it WAS both a judgement on Leslie.. as in.... "you killed my husband, now you have to pay" but it was also about what has already been mentioned by others on here... a judgement on "caucasian privilege". Mrs. Hammond did not have any desire to place justice in the hands of the European Court system... she wasn't ever going to give that letter to the prosecution. She just used the letter to draw Leslie out... it was her "summons'" to show up for court, if you will. And by the very act of "being there"... Leslie confessed to her crime. And then by throwing the letter on the ground... Mrs. Hammond pronounced sentence. It was almost a cruel joke.. she gave Leslie what she needed in order to be set free from the "legal" trial... so that she would be free to face the REAL sentence when the time came for Mrs. Hammond to carry out justice. The widow was the judge, the jury, and the executioner.... the wife of the victim carrying out the sentence on the one who murdered her husband. (again... another bit of poetry) I thought all the performances were very well played. The character of Joyce was SO well done... OH MY GOLLY... when he was giving his summation to the jury... he almost choked on the words. He HATED himself maybe even more than he hated HER at that point... because now... everyday for the rest of his life... he was going to have to look at himself in the mirror and realize what he'd allowed himself to become. But I thought that Crosbie was well played too, and of course... the(almost completely) silent and menacing Mrs. Hammond... OH me... And ONG... OH WOW..... I am thinking he must have left a trail of "oily slime" behind him everywhere he walked.... what a creepy little guy. But this is Bette Davis' movie... SHE is the one that makes this film just bust wide open with her performance.... Mention was made of her "spinning her web" of lace... that is a PERFECT way to describe her... a beautiful, innocent looking little VENOMOUS spider... whiling away her time spinning lace one moment... and lies and deceit the next. It is interesting when she tells Joyce that she'd taken up making lace "a few years ago".. and then I wondered if it was the same time she began her affair w/ Hammond... as if she needed to busily work out her guilt (first for the affair... and then later for the murder) ... by keeping herself constantly moving.... Because THAT is what crochet is if you think about it... a CONSTANTLY moving activity that it deceptively quiet and introspective. If you watch her sitting there just busily working the thread and the needle... she just keeps going and going... because she can't really act that way on the outside... or everyone will know her guilt... so she keeps her nervousness hidden in plain sight by just keeping her hands busy instead. Again... an almost "poetic" thing... Ok... I am likely "overselling" the poetry angle... but it's late and I am an old woman... ha... please forgive my "rambling" on and on in a "non-rambles" thread... I will stop for now... (I think I am hearing snoring...are you still awake after reading all this?? ha) But I will say one more thing... and that is THANKS again, Miss Maven... for introducing me to a REALLY wonderful film!!!

I'm hoping to jump in the Red River later tonight It's about time you showed up here, Grey Dude!! I was afraid I was going to have to go get my rope... and then before it was all over... we'd all be singing a chorus of "Shall We Gather at the River"

What have these two been doing in the back of that wagon? HA!!!!!! Why do I suddenly imagine I hear Ben saying something like: "Aw shucks, ma'am".... :-) Looking forward to your rambling!! (and your screencaps) I am sitting on the edge of my seat little lady....

How cool is that? You can also pay $46.00 for his book and get it autographed like MissG did.... Awesome, if I only had $46.00. I think from what I hear about him (I remember Miss G's comments from some time ago) he seems to be pretty accessable to fans.. that is a nice thing to hear... and ps.... I once had $46..... it was about as long ago as it has been since I actually made the time to sit down and read a book.... ha!!! (I am such a slacker...) Why doesn't TCM have him on as a guest? Oh.. I would LOVE that. I bet a lot of his fans would enjoy it too. (Hey... TCM Dudes... are you listening??) Now... for a little blast from the past: There is nothing I can add here SO... kiddo.... that was way back in JANUARY.... what do you have to say NOW.... (ps.. any more screencaps?????????

Was there a shoot-out at the Moulin Rouge? STOP STOP!!! I can-can hardly take anymore...ha. (you guys are too funny...) Available in Europe, not in the US Well now, that just doesn't make good horse sense. :-)

And the one in the middle.... could look like Jimmy Durante.... (minus the cigar...ha)

I don't want to digress too much here, but....you took the words right out of my mouth - it IS almost a musical... and it's a perfect one. But you know how much I like the Sons of the Pioneers. Heya young'un... As I recall I took the words out of my OWN mouth all over again... because I remembered that Miss G started a thread way back at the first of the year....and I think I said that same thing back then too... ha. And NOT that we couldn't go ahead and talk about BOTH movies here as well because THAT would be totally OK.... but I just thought I needed to go back and look up some of what was written there before since I could not remember some of the "finer" points... and I wanted to) When I looked it up, I saw that YOU had posted some really nice screen caps in there.... and Miss G's opening post in this thread is TERRIFIC and VERY well worth bringing up again.... So hop in there.... or keep hopping here.... and we can chat about Ben and Harry along w/ Dunson and Matt in one place or another!! :-) Now I need to go find my Wagon Master tape that I made and watch this one again!!! (so many movies... so little time) Ha!!!! http://forums.tcm.com/jive/tcm/thread.jspa?threadID=139084&start=30&tstart=0

Hello there, Jackie!! I liked your comment about turning your head and missing the end of the movie...ha. It really IS almost that quick of an ending...ha. And Chris... you are right about Dru's character being needed to bring the two men back together at the end (especially since she left the wagon train and tagged along with him to get there) BUT if they HAD left her whole story out altogether (or at least REDUCED it) .... they could have just used the cows (ha) as in.... "Hey look at all the cattle and the RAILROAD here together in the same place... gee.... you were RIGHT after all Matt" And at least for me... that would have worked just as well. And then Walter Brennan could have given the whole... "you two love each other too much to want to kill each other" sort of speech... HA! :-) (I don't know.... I am sure there is a reason I don't get paid to write movies.... ha. I just think however they ended this movie...they could have done it BETTER than it was.) And Jackie and Chris... you are both right about Dunson being angry. I am sure Matt taking charge had a lot to do with it... but I think he was a bit "over the top" with it all... And I also think the whole "hang the deserters" part (that led up to the whole incident where Matt steps in) was a bit far fetched. But I am starting to sound like a whiner...ha. I am beginning to think this may be one where you just have to take this story for how it was presented if you want to really enjoy it. PS.. Jackie... glad you go to see Wagon Master.... I watched that this past winter... it's really a fun film... almost a musical. And YES.... there's BEN!!! (and sweet little Harry about as cute as I've ever seen him, too!)

Hiya friend Chris.... Are your reservations because Wayne is mostly so nasty. He's all business isn't he? No actually that part did not bug me as much as I thought. (ha) I have seen him get a little on the ugly side of life before in some of his other roles... so I can handle that aspect. Mostly I just kept thinking... this story is GOING to get better and THEN there will be a point to all the killing and such.... Because it was more the believability behind the "motivation" of some of the characters I struggled with from time to time... specifically Dunson, but even Matt from time to time. (I wasn't sure HOW I felt about him for a while... because I saw the potential for him to be a HOTHEAD show off.... and I was surprised when he ended up to be nothing like that at all.... but actually he ended up being more like the DUKE.... than the DUKE... ha) The only one I DID have a clear fix on ... (well TWO) actually were Brennan's character and the Indian (who owned half interest in his teeth) ha. And I STILL haven't quite worked out what I think about "Cherry" and a few of the other men... were they good/ bad/ grey?????? ha. I just can't quite figure all the way. (PS.... don't tell the Grey guy... .there is a LOT of GREY in this movie...ha.) And w/ Dunson..... I just did not think that after all that driving ambition to get the herd to market and to make his ranch so strong again that he would have gotten so "kookoo" over Matt wanting to head a different direction... especially when there seemed to be pretty good evidence (particularly the guy who came riding in half dead) that it WAS possible they could go to Kansas instead and come out better off. He just totally lost all reason at that point. (Mini spoiler alert) And then when he DOES finally catch up to him at the railroad tracks.... and sees that he'd been wrong all along... That doesn't even seem to phase him... he just wants to kill poor Matt. (who he SHOULD have known well enough by now.... since he half RAISED him... that he would be able to figure out that he had NOT really "stolen" what had been intended for him to have someday anyway.) Dunson was just MAD (and I don't mean "crazy" at this point).... and I never really thought his character was the sort to let his temper "rule' him like that. He made "quick" decisions a lot of the time (especially early on over the property he'd settled on, etc) but he wasn't acting out of anger. So for him to go all "I'm gonna kill you" .... well to me.... it was a bit TOO over the top for me to believe. And I agree w/ you about Dru's performance... she was terrific. (Oh my golly... when she got hit w/ that arrow I about jumped out of my chair)...ha. But honestly.. I thought the whole "woman" angle was not really done as well as it could have been (and don't hit me... but I half thought maybe it wasn't needed at all... BOTH women for that matter) At least w/ Dru's character, it did not need to "continue on" the way that it did w/ her and the Duke having that ONE (baby) conversation etc, etc And then with her going w/him... blah blah.... I just did not need THAT part of the story to keep going on and on. (Ok... I'm probably in the minority on that... don't everyone hit me all at once...ha.) (More SPOILING!!!) And you are right about the end.... it was WAY too quick.. especailly considering how LONG and GRUELING the rest of the story was. And with the way she "jumped in at the end" and made them turn all "buddy buddy" again.... just seconds after CHERRY was just gunned down in the street. And I'm not saying he SHOULDN'T have been "gunned down" by the way (because HE was aiming to kiil too) but the whole ending was just WAY too lighthearted for such a violent and "bleak" film.... especially with the shoot out and fist fight only moments before. Ok.... it is STARTING to sound like I didn't LIKE this movie... and that's not true, because I DID... I think I was just more disappointed than I thought I would be by some of the plot elements.... because if it weren't for THOSE issues... Then for me... this WOULD have been a great movie. I think the Duke DOES do a stand out job as Dunson (but I don't know if I would put this role up as high as you did w/ The Searchers) and again... I think this is as fine a job from Clift as I've ever seen (though admittedly I don't have a LOT of experience w/ his films) And it was wonderfully filmed... (I think my absolute favorite scene was when they were just about to head out for the first leg of their journey and you get to see ALL these guys give their "cowboy yell".. I liked how they each got a close up and you get to hear their own "personal" call.... And it is a much more "psychological" drama than the average western would be... so much mention is made of Dunson's state of mind and how he's sort of "lost it," etc. But even before that.... I thought the music just before they leave was appropriately "eerie" in a way... as if already warning you that things were going to be a bit "nutso" eventually. .And the use of the fog later on when the men are getting a bit jumpy already...that added a nice layer to the whole thing too. Overall.... an enjoyable film.... I think I was just expecting something a little different from the plot... so I can't put it way up on the top of my list..... but it IS on my list.... ha. :-) Message was edited by: rohanaka

Hello Ms. B... I thought he did a REALLY good job with the "EDGY" as you say. I have only seen him in a few other films... but I thought this one is one of his better performances. PS... RedRiver... glad to hear we are not on "opposite" sides of.... "the River' on this one!! :-)