rohanaka
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Posts posted by rohanaka
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Wow....just dropping in to say thanks Metsfan, Whistling Gypsy and everybody else for the great pics and posters, etc that you folks have uncovered on Tom Santschi. I mentioned this earlier in another thread...but I bet he had no idea whatsover that 80plus years later he'd be the focus of so much "fan club" excitement!. He has fast become quite the favorite around here.
Thanks again everybody.
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What do you think, could this be Tom in his early twenties
Hi Whistling Gypsy...
Boy those photos do share a lot of similarities....I am wondering myself if the younger one could in fact be our beloved Tom...
The chins are a little different though...it could just be shadowing and the angle the younger man is holding his head...I don't see that slight 'cleft" that is present in the older man's chin (that we know for sure is T. S.)
It is a mystery....hope someone can find a source to let us know for sure.... pretty cool stuff!
Thanks again!!
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If you recall, we don't actually see Mr Stanley die on screen, that's because he got up and ran home to me.
:-) THAT truly would be the perfect ending to the story!! :-)
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16000!! Woo hoo!
Congrats little lady....I was so caught up in the emotion of your screencaps I never even noticed you had hit that milestone... Our beloved Tom and I are looking forward to many more terrific posts to come!!
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Oh........ (sigh) (sob) (sigh)....
April..I want to thank you for three things right now...
First...thanks for reminding the Grey Guy about his obligation yet unfulfilled...I was planning on doing that myself but not in nearly so eloquent a fashion as the one you chose...(I would likely have said something like..."So..What? Are you finished already?") So extra points off the chart to you my friend for outclassing me!! :-)
Second...thanks so much for posting those beautiful screencaps.
Third...thanks a lot for reducing me to not only tears...but genuine gasping sobs as I relived one of the most heartwrenching moments (yet again) of this film.
The "family" aspects of this story are really becoming a focus here in our discussion of this film lately. And for good reason. As you and several others have said it does seem to be a major theme in a lot of Ford films so it should come as no surprise.
For purposes of this discussion about the scene you posted...to me, it's all about the word "Brother". I have always felt that "family" titles are a very solemn thing. Now granted I throw the words sister and brother around here from time to time....but in a lot of ways we are like a family, as has already been stated...so I don't mean any disrespect in my use of those titles on here w/ all of you... But in "real life" when it comes to words like:
Mother...Father....Sister...Brother....Husband....Wife...Daughter....Son
Well... there are times for me that these words almost deserve a hushed reverence at their speaking. They are in many ways almost sacred words. Now I am not suggesting that families are to be set up as objects of true worship in the same way as deity...I reserve that spot for only one and HE alone has a name that truly is sacred to me...but the next closest after that would be the titles in the list up above.
And Millie (in her agony and despair) reaches beyond the name of the person "Bull" and goes instead for the relationship. Brother. And in my mind...he is her "big brother" and she is calling to him in that way, much as a baby or young child would do...perhaps as she used to do long ago before all her innocense was lost and tarnished. She has reverted back to needing the safety and comfort only her big brother can afford.
This is a bit personal..(and when oh when have I ever shared anything personal w/ you folks?) :-)
But I have 3 younger brothers. I was the oldest and the only girl in our family. And all 3 of my brothers were and still are very dear to me. We were all close (though in different ways w/ each of them) and we all relied on one another. But I am closer in age to the first 2 boys than I am the baby of the family. I was 6 years old when he came around (how my mom was able to put up w/ 4 kids only 6 yrs apart must qualify her for sainthood I am sure)...but that baby boy was MY baby. I loved to hold him and care for him and help my mom w/ all the "baby chores". I was too young to do these sorts of things when the other two boys came along So if there is one among the 3 brothers that I always felt more 'motherly" toward it would be the baby of the family.. And to this day, (though we are probably not the closest among all the four kids) nearly 40 years after he was born, he is the only one of the 3 that calls me "sis". And that is because when he was a baby my mom would always say things like..."go w/ sissy" or "let sissy help you" and that is what he started out calling me... And I am here to tell you that as a child, I wore that name like a badge of honor. I still do.
And when Millie is crying out "Brother"....there were lots of brothers all around her....many of the men there that night was likely somebody's brother...but the only one there who could answer Millie's call was Bull. And (remembering that he did not know she was anywhere around at all) he turns his head at first as if he doesn't quite believe his ears...and in that moment...despite the roar of the fire and all the gunfire and the screaming and the yelling that filled the night air (and yes...I heard all of that even though this was a "silent movie") ...the only sound HE could here was the familiar voice calling HIS name... Brother.
Talk about sacred.
Oh..I have to stop..I am crying again.
Thanks a lot April...it's my first day of Christmas vacation and I needed to be a bit of an emotional wreck today (only the slightest hint of sarcasm) ...now what am I going to do?? I have a house to clean...I am supposed to go get groceries....I have party to finish planning for the scouting troop I am coordinating...and yet I am sitting here blubbering like an idgit....(and loving every minute of it, I might add) :-)
Truly...you have hit the heart of this man in your post. Bull...a bad man?? Perish the thought.
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1936 version and have heard wonderful things about it---many
people actually prefer it so I'm looking forward to the comparison myself!
I am going off of some really old memories here...but as I recall it is a bit more "gritty" and the characters seem a bit more "real" in some ways than in Ford's version... and in that respect it might be more similar to 3Bad Men than the Duke/Ford 3GF... but I would not be ready to really make any comparisons without having seen it in so long. Hope you get to see it.
Barb....your mom sounds like she is quite the laugh riot...and the gravy sounds... interesting?? I think it is very sweet how you two are so close. I am sure she appreciates you being so near to her. And she is doing a great job (through you) of keeping us all entertained!! :-)
(PS...hope her toes are ok.)
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No "expertise" here, ma'am
Oh sure...after reading your post...tell me another one April... :-)
Thanks you and Jackie too...you guys helped me understand the process a lot better. I imagine Ford really was a very "hands on" director from reading everything you wrote plus the few things I've learned just in watching. I also remember reading some things by Ms. Ohara in her autobiography about all the work she and he put into the Quiet Man....so it is all coming together at least a little clearer for me....thanks.
was in a hotel in Beijing once
I am going to start putting a little pin in a map everytime you list another location and track all the gazilion places you have been, kid. I tell ya....I thought I had travelled around at least a bit w/ me being an army brat and all...but you make me look like...oh what was that phrase...oh yeah...a wannabe again....(I will can the lowlife part at least for a while...there is already so much evidence out there anyway) :-) I bet you have some great traveling stories...
Is TCM airing it? Good. I wasn't sure if they were planning to.
Actually I went back and looked it up...they are airing the Ford version from 1948 on Tues 23rd at 4pm and the 1936 version (a little lesser known..) on Christmas morning at 8AM...I saw that other version a long time ago, if memory serves....there are a lot of similiarities...but it ends way differently andt there are some other big changes in it as well...Ford must have been at it again w/ the writers when he made the version he filmed!! (which is WAY my favorite of course) :-)
Just in the space of the time between my posts...(drum roll please...) The QT helped me move the furniture and we got that vcr hooked up!! Woo...hoo...and I didn't even have to act pitiful...but I did have to remind him I was still needing his help... It DOES tape too...it is fairly new looking even for a used one..and the remote looks brand new...so I think (I hope) it was a good investment of my 20 bucks. I am hoping to tape the Ford 3GF for sure...maybe I will tape the 36 version too just to have as a comparison...Oh....the taping possibilities are endless now...and aren't you all glad you don't have to hear me whine anymore...give me time though...I am sure I'll find something else to cry about... :-)
TCM is January 16th at 1:00 PM---they're finally showing Wagon Master
Hey..thanks for the heads up..I don't think I have heard much about that one..I will check it out!
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I think you're just asking for trouble
HA!! When ever my husband says..."Are you lookin' for trouble"...I always say..."Nah..I already found plenty..firstI married it....then later on..I gave birth to it!!" So trouble makes me feel right at home!! :-)
I can visualize the director carrying around the germ of a film scenario in his head after reading it, building on it in his imagination until he'd formed a rough but defined idea.
Here's where your expertise can clue me in on something I've been wondering about....I know this was based on a book....when a book gets adapted for film, I am wondering how much of the actual "story line" gets left to the director and how much to a screenwriter. And I am sure I could look this up...but who did Ford rely on for such things and how much influence do you think he had in the actual process of the "written' aspect of the story? His influence in the presentation is obvious since it is like he is the "storyteller" in a sense...but who and how and where did the script and the dialogue and the events of the story come from?? I wonder about this with all his films, not just this one. And again....I am sure he held sway over the story...I am just wondering how the process worked (and still works in today's films as well for that matter) This is one of those "lowlife wannabe" moments I was talking about. :-)
I keep thinking if someone can imagine and create these things, why can't
they live them as well.
Boy if you can figure that one out, you deserve some sort of prize. How human beings can have the capacity for such great beauty and wisdom and such abominable behavior all at the same time...almost makes you want to go start some sort of "eastern cultic paradise" in some frozen mountain region somewhere so you can begin hoarding all the "beauty" before we all do each other in....oh wait....someone else already made a movie about that didn't they?? :-)
just finished watching Three Godfathers
LUCKY!! It is showing a couple of times later this week...I am hoping to get it taped...and of course...the VCR is STILL not plugged in yet..I am really hoping to get that accomplished by the end of the day as there are a couple of others I want to catch this week too. .I am about to deploy my famous...."act all pathetic and try to do it myself tactic" to try and get the QT to help me...the night is still young!! :-)
It's such a beautifully photographed story and I love the songs, especially "Streets of Laredo" as sung by Harry.
Whenever I think of that song...it is HIS voice singing that I hear in my head. I love this story so much. It truly is one of my favorite Duke films and that little Robert William Pedro is just WAY too cute!! :-)
PS..Jack...if you get the chance...you really want to see this one...I think you will like it a lot.
PSS...April, enjoy your new TV...I bet in the end it will be worth all that hassle, but I am sure it was not fun going through it at the time. Gotta go fix some supper. Talk to you folks later!! :-)
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I have to confess, I watched 3 Bad Men three times in the last seven days
HA! That is exactly what I did the one little week I had my copy here from the library...If ever there was a time that "Oh..Mrs. Librarian..I don't know WHAT you are talking about....I don't have a copy of that DVD in my possession...you folks must have made some sort of computer error" ever entered my mind....Well...let's just say that little angel on my one shoulder had to do some serious whacking w/ a big stick to beat back the little devil on my other ...it was a struggle there for a moment!! HA :-)
PS...Never once have I ever heard a "boring babble" from you...when the time is right, I say again...ramble on baby!! :-)
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Poor Andrew needed a break today, though
Sounds like we both hit the jackpot when it comes to patient men. :-)
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I may have to take over the basement bathroom and convert it into a dvd room.....
Oh!! Just think of it...a place to watch movies...w/ indoor plumbing too!! Put in a little mini fridge and a microwave...and you'd never have to hit the pause button again!!! :-)
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Hey there April...
I enjoyed your post very much and you make some excellent points (the fact that some of them were in total agreement w/ old Mr. Grey....well..we'll just keep that under the old hat if you want to!) :-)
I haven't analyzed 3 Bad Men on my own as yet, I'm still savoring it,
And THAT is the ramble I am personally waiting for. You have made some really good comments and brought up a lot of thought provoking ideas and elements to the story. But w/ all your insight into the book as well....OH PLEASE OH PLEASE...I would really enjoy an indepth ramble from you. (Just put a little water sealant on the keyboard and get an extra large box of Kleenex for when those tears start welling up) It IS a very emotional movie and I think that if that were not true..we'd all have just made a few passing comments and moved on a long time ago...SO....I know how well you have rambled already....but I would look forward to all the many gems you have held back from us... No pressure...just whenever you think you can do it...I am all ears..(or eyes as the case may be) :-)
He is definitely brotherly in his regard, but he and the other two admit to themselves how unfit they are even to be indoors with her and sitting at the same table (she has a ranch in Mexico in the book, instead of being out West seeking a home---and she's transformed into a flower of the South in Ford's story ) Anyway, a neighbor of Lee's is a widow woman with a little daughter who falls for Bull and he is attracted but holds back because of the aforesaid reasons. Finally, there is a scene where he tells her as he leaves her that he will return to her and he promises himself while he is away he won't drink and will change his ways. Ultimately, he weakens, goes on a drunken tear, is filled with self-loathing afterward. Tragically he returns to find that the widow and child were murdered and Lee kidnapped. In Ford's scenario, he interstingly eliminates the widow and instead gives Bull a sister who is taken. It's brilliant, really, becuase it's a neat way to explain why he's so chivalrous with Lee. I've brought all this up from the novel because, like Jackie, I like to speculate on characters lives outside the boundaries of the film. I feel that since Bull's character is so like he is in the book in every other way, that he probably would not have been able to just hang around Lee and Dan, nor could his pals. They might speculate and daydream on it, as they do in the novel, but they'd know they are too unreliable in the long run, and are born to wander outside the bourne of respectable folk.
Whoa! Now see... a lot of what you wrote explains a lot...I think you are right on the money about his motivations based on the aspects of his character that are left out of the film. Now you HAVE to keep on rambling for us, because I bet there are lots of interesting tidbits like that.
In John Ford movies---I agree again with Frank. In real life, Kathy, I tend to believe what you say more. At least from what I've seen and experienced, though I have also seen a slightly mitigating influence if the woman is fairly adamant and unequivical about expressing herself. Those like Millie, however, they succumb.
I was speaking in a more "universal" sense about things that would apply to most people..so what you say by dividing it between films and the real world makes a lot of sense as well.
Kathy shame on you!! Frank has that title covered back to front so don't be putting yourself
in his league!
HA!! Maybe I am a lowlife wannabe and he is just a lowlife??? Oh...I didn't say that did I???? :-) Grey Guy....you had it coming w/ all those nasty little remarks about my cooking!! :-)
Seriously, young lady, I really would like to hear more when you feel up to it..ramble on, baby!! :-)
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the cheap side
You say "cheap side" I say tight fisted!! HA. I am the queen of that to be sure...I hope old Santa's ESP was working for you. I am sure I am too far gone off the old nice list to dare to hope for such a thing myself.
April...did you get your TV situation straightened out????????
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Hi Jackie...
My nose and toes etc had to thaw out all over again this afternoon after going back out to church this morning....but I think I am finally at least half way warmed up now :-)
I really enjoyed your ramble...I think you are so right about the importance of the family themes in this one...and in a lot of other Ford's as well. And I think you are also right on target about the reason for Mike and Spade to follow Bull's lead...at least in the beginning. I think eventually they were also won over by Lee and her faith in them as well...but their allegiance to Bull and their friendship most likely has to be the motivating factor.
I liked your "imaginings" about that low life Liberty Valance as well....parenting and childhood influences have a huge bearing on our final outcomes as human beings (though they still are not an excuse for bad behavior). And I would imagine your "imaginings" are right on the money. :-) It's fun trying to get into a character's head and try to figure out what makes them tick...especially when you don't always have a reference point....like w/ Layne or Liberty. And even Bull for that matter. And that is one of the things that makes all these ramblings and musings so fun....any of us could be right or we could all be dead wrong...but it is fun to try and work the puzzle w/out looking at the cover. We might each walk away w/ a different picture in the end...but it is a nice way to get to know the characters all the more and each other as well...
Which brings me to the other thing I liked about your post...there is definitely a family feel around here...at least w/ most of the folks I seem to find myself chatting w/. And I am very grateful to all of you for your patience w/ me. Think of me as the "chatty old aunt" who sits around and just talks and talks all the time but rarely knows anything about what she is saying. I am sure you all have one of those in your family....so in this family it might as well be me. But I am glad to be here and it is fun to get to know all of you like this. You are some of the nicest folks I've (n)ever met!! :-)
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Hi Jack!! I want to come back in here and comment about what you wrote...I LOVE what you said about the family aspect (of both the film and this gathering of folks here) but now I have to go fix supper and see if I can get my nose warmed up....I was bundled from head to toe out there today..but my nose...oh my nose... Rudolph has NOTHING on me.
I will talk to YOU later, my sister!! :-)
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AGGGHHHH!! This has been bugging me all day! I was trapped in a long line of cars....all of us waiting to turn down the main road that takes us to THE BIG CHRISTMAS SHOPPING EXTRAVAGANZA locations in our area....and was I concentrating on my driving?? NO!! Was I thinking of my future purchases and who I needed to still buy for?? NO!! Was I even thinking YIKES! It is 17 degrees w/ a negative 10 windchill factor and what was I thinking for coming out here?? Again...a resounding NO!! All I could think of was....Pharaoh did not go after the first born of EGYPT....which is what I typed in my previous post....duh....I am going to go back and edit it and I only type this now for anyone who may have read it earlier and thought....that girl is off her rocker again....(but it should come as no surprise...and even if I fix my boo-boo...I am sure to give you yet many more future reasons to believe that I am off my rocker!!) I am blaming you Grey Guy for this one though....I was just up so late reading your post from last night that I still had morning brain fog going on when I was typing earlier...(yeah..that must be it!!! ) :-)
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Hiya There One Bad Man...
Yes, "don't judge a book" is also a major theme in 3 Bad Men, and it just may be
the most prevalent. I stand corrected
Wooohooo..chalk one up for the old worn out hag of a grandma....PS...don't judge the book by it's cover now... :-)
You'll find many wayward men in the lawless West, and many can become heroes for this very reason.
The best aspect to me of heroism is the way a person can overcome their biggest obstacles...and for most people...(and that finger is a pointing way back at myself on this one as much as anyone else) for most people their biggest obstacle are their own human failings. Overcoming one's lesser qualities and worse natures (sin if you will) is a big challenge and way tougher to do that to fight off any pistol packing mob of bad guys chasing after you for gold. Which is why I think our 3 friends were able to do THAT part so willingly....they'd already worked on the hardest part...and YES...they still were "bad" to a degree....they were criminals after all, as you said. I keep trying to work out whether they would have gone back to crime apart from Lee or not...I am just so torn now after reading your post. I must give it some more thought.
You are right, Layne doesn't look to hide his inscrupulous ways. But I do believe he is attempting to be duplicitous in that he's wearing a white hat. He is putting on a facade for some reason. Why?
He IS duplicitous....at least in making his "first"impressions...but once you get passed that moment...it is almost more like he is using his appearance to MOCK what he despises...and that would be the good and decent people and their dislike of his practices. And his tongue may be "coated" in silver...but that is not where his speech is really coming from....so the tarnish shows up pretty quick just about as soon as he opens his mouth. (From out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh ...so to speak.)
My feeling that Hunter is Herod stems from the "Massacre of the Innocents."
You do have a good point there...(I liked how you included the picture of the babies...it IS very telling of his actions...) but I don't think Herod was after ALL the innocents. Only one in particular...and he was willing to get all to get one...so maybe a more accurate comparison could be Pharaoh...going after all the male Hebrew children ?? Because Layne was clearly after all... I don't know...maybe not.
I also think Layne saw himself as the true leader of the people and he wanted to get rid of anyone else that posed a threat to his "sway" over them...and certainly...that "Psalm Singer" would qualify. And that is a huge reason for his actions.
I believe Millie can be viewed as an angel since it is she who warns of the impending danger. Like the "3 Bad Men," she also sacrifices herself for others
You are likely right...Millie could be maybe be seen as having an "angelic" moment in her sacrifice...but angels don't get redemptive moments like that...once they "choose up sides" that is where they stay....(I am very glad those rules don't apply to the rest of us) And while I can see the potential for a bit of an angelic reference there..I also think her actions were VERY human. She is such a tragic character all the way around...led astray by a mistaken concept of love...treated as a **** and yet content to stay there in that role (at least she did for some time until she found out he really wasn't going to marry her) rather than go back to her brother. I wonder what would have happened had Bull not shown up....I still think she'd have stayed because her whole "love" for Layne still was dragging her down even after he mocked her and tossed her aside when she begged him to marry her.And when Bull DOES show up....she hides from him from the very beginning. Is she afraid of him and how he will react to the knowledge of what she has done? Ashamed of herself? Worried something bad will happen to Layne if Bull finds out HE'S the one...I am thinking it was all three. But in the end....she is "hungering and thirsting after righteousness" maybe more like the woman at the well than an angel. But that is where the comparison might stop. Because her own final redemption is found in her sacrificial act. VERY dramatic and heart wrenching. When she is crying "Brother...BROTHER!" I was bawling my eyes out... and the way Bull just stops everything to go find her... UGH!! I am getting tears in eyes right now just thinking about it.
I'm not as sure about that. I'm still of the belief that he would return to his old ways,
Again..you are making me rethink some of what I said...I can see her being the drive behind their actions...and for Mike and Spade especially...they did not have the emotional bond that was spurring them on. But the fact that they were willing and ready to die for her shows that they had a committment level that might have lasted beyond her "physical" reach...sort of like...if I act this way now...what would Miss Lee think of me?? So it is possible they might have gone on to improve themselves but I agree...you are likely right...they might not have "stuck around" after Lee and Dan were finally together.....but the thought of them staying on and helping to raise the little one is intriguing....I can see Spade teaching him "card tricks" and Mike telling him off color jokes and then the two of them getting scolded by Lee...and Bull would be the one who taught him things like roping and shooting....It could have worked....but then again....who knows??
I don't believe Bull changed any
Oh....I do. But maybe change is the wrong word....I believe he OVERCAME his past in the way he just melted at the sight of Lee. I always tell the kids in Sunday school that repentance is like "the big U turn of life" You are going one way down a road....and you turn around and go the complete opposite direction. And Bull was going one way.....and then.....whammo...the little horse of his heart did a big 180 w/ his reaction to Lee and his complete devotion to her from then on. And I don't even really think it was a conscious choice on his part...And I'll grant you that he still had his own nature....but the traits and inner qualities that made him strong (that he used to use for "bad") were now being pointed in a different direction.
Would they react the same way if a man accepted them and believed in them?
Hmm....I could only see a few scenarios where that might have worked...what if the man had been the pastor? Possibly . Their motivation would CERTAINLY have been for a different reason...but it is possible that certain men might have held sway over them in the right setting....it is an interesting possibility. But I think you are right....Lee was a "she" and that is what made the biggest difference.
believe everyone has the capacity for white and black and that most everyone is white but no one is pure, hence my feeling we are a grey people, sinners, if you will.
Well...since you used the "s" word(and at the risk of getting too theological) ... if we try to look at this from a universal aspect as it applies to all things white/black/ or grey for purposes of this discussion....I will agree we all have the potential for white and black...but the black degrades our "white"...since we all have some sort of "sin". Because even if there are degrees of sin (and certainly there are) ...all sin is still sin...and totally "black" in contrast to the "whiteness" of good. Some of us have more black than others....some of us have more white....But if you have a spotless white glove...and even get one tiny spot....it is no longer "spotless" And we ALL have spotted gloves....because we all have "sin" in us that we can not erase...otherwise the black or the white would be forever gone. But the attempt to erase is where the Grey happens.....By smudging at the "black" in effort to make it seem more white...But the truth is the only way for us to get rid of our true black is the complete covering of someone else's "white".... ... oh....this may be a conversation better left to a different venue....but I do agree that there is a lot of grey in people...
Ford was WAY ahead of his time with this film... have been amazed by the depth of character and emotion in all the Ford films I have seen to date.
I am with you my brother on that one....every new film I see of his is a lesson in what a good storyteller can do if he puts his heart in along w/ the story.
Ohhh, that's not The Wild Bunch.
I probably worded my post wrong...I didn't mean to say that this story was like the Wildbunch in terms of their sacrifice....
+The Wild Bunch is a very masculine film about male friendship and honor.3 Bad Men features this, as well. This is on full display at the end of the movie, and I'll
comment on this in a future post+.
I hope so....because in truth...I may have "avoided" this film in part for the "macho" in it...I might need to rethink that now....
A lowlife wannabe?
Oh yeah....when it comes to film knowledge that's me all over...but I appreciate your "confidence" in me. And you are right.... And if there is one area where I would bow down to Miss G, it would be in knowledge of classic film. OH but you are SO wrong... But that's it.
She's wrongheaded everywhere else. April...HOW do you put up w/ him?????
I love Sunrise because I believe it's a wonderful lesson on love.
And there is that whole...repentance/redemption thing going on....
I'm impressed that you gladly watched a silent film; not everyone is willing to take such a plunge. But now knowing that you really like Sunrise, it makes sense
It was the first "silent" I ever really payed any attention to...and I was just overwhelmed by it....still am.
And I am a full fledged member in the newly formed 21st Century edition of the Tom Satschi Fan Club.
I thought you had a thing for Layne, non? Or is that Miss G?
Hmmmmmmmm...would it surprise you to know that my "interest" in our beloved Tom is purely platonic?? I admire his character in this film so much and his acting abilities...as well as some of the things I have read about his personality and personal life...AND he IS pleasant on the eyes...in a scruffy sort of way...but the truth is...I am a one woman man... and it is the QT for me all the way.... but having said that... I CAN appreciate beauty w/ out romantic entanglements...hence the "sigh" when it comes to those blue eyes... :-)
Once Upon a Time in the West. UGH!!! I am glad you did not make that comparison!! Leave it to YOU to try and sully this beautiful tale w/ the film of my nightmares...(where IS that pepto bismol...)
I didn't call you a mistress! Miss G did
Now do I really have to spend the rest of my post instructing you in the use of CONNOTATION?? OH!! The PEACEMAKER is NOT happy.... :-)
not to mention your personal attack on my COOKING!!!!!
Well, um, uh...
Uh huh!! THIS from the man who eats "sawdust" And LIKES it???
I'm not full of bull. I'm full of sweet loving kindness
You're usually full of ...something.
your original ramble on 3 Bad Men really is the best of the
bunch. It made it easy for me (and others) to respond to. Nicely done!
Oh stop...my white hat still fits too tight from all those nice things you said over at the Oxbow...I won't be able to wear it anywhere now!!
found the attack on the church in 3 Bad Men and the attack on the Edwards homestead in The Searchers to be quite similar
Good points here....and I like the way you compared/ contrast with the screencaps...I think you are right on target.
The following cap also made me think of Star Wars. I believe George Lucas took from The Searchers.
You may be right...just looking at this together makes a good case for it..(Aunt Beru!! Uncle Owen!!)
Do you find anything similar between these two gentlemen?
Why...yes...especially in terms of their "sliminess" ...But I don't know...Liberty was just way over the top...he was like Layne...maybe on steroids or something. However..Layne was "slicker" and more "slithery" maybe...but I think they BOTH must have been the other's evil twin.
This is turning into a fun ramble...nice work there....Mr. SMARTMOUTH....keep up the good work. :-)
Message was edited by: rohanaka
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I shall retire forthwith
HA! Then I shall retire "fifthwith" because I was about to call it a day myself...it's been a long time since 5:45 this morning...
Mr. Grey...you have the proverbial floor...
PS...April...I wonder if he will talk about us behind our backs while we are gone...OH surely not..NO gentleman would!! :-)
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Yep...he planted a big smacker right on top of old Walter's head. Watta surprise for both Walter and me, I am sure!
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what Ford movie you're watching next?
Well...sadly I have to regroup now and rethink my list...I am out of Fords at the moment. I think the library has hit the bottom of the well of all the ones I have ordered...I am going to go back over my list and see if I have any that I may have forgotten to ask them to order...but there were a couple they were not able to get for me so those I will have to either rent or wait for TCM to show, or find another resource...will have to see what happens.
Enjoy the Informer...though that is not a word I would think of when describing how I felt about watching it....there is not a lot of 'joy' in that film..but it is a very interesting story and features some very fine performances.
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Behave yourself!
Always
NEVER!
Me, too! I simply adore those two, especially my sweet "Mike" (J. Farrell MacDonald). I
think it's so touching how the dynamics of the relationship of the three is presented. You
can tell that Mike and Spade are closer to each other than Bull is to either of them, in terms
of relating. They are alike. Bull is a little different. This is perfectly brought to life from the
book. In the book, these two guys acknowledge the greater capacity for good in Bull, while
they two are more rascally and really enjoy being naughty and a bit lazy. They are
almost like a pair of youngsters, irresponsible and not to be trusted too long unsupervised
especially if there is booze to be had nearby, or in Spade's case, cards and a few prospective
suckers. Bull keeps them in line but Lee makes them want to at least try to stay
in line.
Mike and Spade are my kind of guys. Although, I contend Layne is the best man in the
film. Mike and Spade are definitely closer because they are very similar. They are like
twins. Bull is clearly the most "responsible" of the "Bad Men." He can be very serious and
very focused. He's also driven.
Again....you two...very nice insights...perfect take on these two and how they relate to Bull....and vice versa....
I love when they are coming in after a night of partying...and Bull says..."Drunk again" and they answer back...."So are we!" Too funny.
Interesting mention about the fences.
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They were so real. I continue to marvel
at the extreme sensitivity Ford showed from early on toward elderly characters.
I'm not sure I can think of anyone else who so consistently gives them not only
"cameos" and meaningful bit parts, but also seems to convey a personal statement
about how intrinsic their place is in all our lives. They are not "they", they are US
in his movies. He doesn't just leap over the generation gap, he fills it in or creates
a bridge, or heck, maybe he was too wise to even believe there is such a gap at all.
April....I love this...You are so right on target. If '"they" are NOT us....WE will be THEM soon enough....so it all comes together in the end...nicely said.
I consider Bull to be the original incarnation of "Tom Doniphon" (John Wayne in The
Man Who Shot Liberty Valance); he is willing to sacrifice himself for the happiness of
a woman he cares about.
That is the very thing about the Bull Stanley character I felt the strongest. I remember
saying to myself (I talk to myself a lot) "here is 'Tom', full-fledged in '26. Ford would
reprise some of his characteristics, namely the self-sacrificing nature, in other
characters but in '62 he emerged again fully formed.
You guys are exploring an aspect of Bull that I never really considered before...but I think there are comparisons that could be made...nice insights...(and PS...I talk to myself too...I am famous for it sometimes) :-)
PSS....thanks for telling you know who to behave with his nasty little name calling....but you might as well tell the sun to stop shining.... :-)
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What I find to be the prevalent message of 3 Bad Men is: all that glitters is not
gold.
Hmmm...
Hiya Man of the Thousand (or so) words...Grey Guy...that theme is definitely present throughout the story...but I also think a more universal message might be Don't judge a book by it's cover because out of the major characters in the story..only Lee and Dan were really what they first appeared to be...everyone else more or less were revealed to be who they really were. Now obviously...The Sheriff of Rottenham :-) was revealed pretty early on...but our 3 friends got a nice, gradual lifting of the veil so to speak...and it was a wonderful revelation.
The "3 Bad Men" are far from pure. They are definitely running afoul
of the law. They are not wrongly accused. I love this aspect of the film.
True...all true. And that is what makes their "revelation" so emotional...the repentance angle is one of my favorite themes in a story like this. A lot of westerns seem to turn on that sort of wheel and it has always been such an appealing aspect of that genre for me.
Do you find the "3 Bad Men" to be an offshoot of the 3 Wise Men? Is "Sheriff Layne Hunter" similar to King Herod?
Hmmm...my short answer on that would likely be no....not really. But there could be some ways of looking at it that may escape me at the moment...the Wise Men were actively SEEKING the one that Herod wanted to destroy...but our 3 happened on their object of worship in a way that was not of their own choosing. And Herod was far more duplicitous. To me, Layne didn't really try too hard to hide the fact he was scum...other than maybe in a few select moments....like offering Lee the water and his brief visit at her wagon. Most of the time, he seemed proud of his sinful ways. He seemed to flaunt them every chance he got. And it was little secret to everyone (except poor Millie) that he had low morals and a love for evil by the way the more "respectable" townsfolk complained to the preacher about him....and by the sway he had over the less respectable folk in town. But again...there could be aspects of the biblical story I am overlooking. What are YOUR thoughts??
the "Wanted" posters are very legit, though. They truly are bad in the sense
they are doing bad. That doesn't mean they are completely bad through and through. We
learn of their goodness through "Bull," who is looking for his sister, who he deeply cares
about and dearly loves. But I don't believe there is any mistaking their being criminals.
Absolutely. And I agree w/ April about Bull coming from some sort of family where he was "taught" better. I think he knew right from wrong...possibly they all did. But they fell into a life that let them follow a path that was wrong. And they seemed content to stay there. Until.....
once he saw "Lee" was awoman, he froze. He immediately went from taker to giver. Ahhh, the great power of woman. And there was great reason for why a woman would make such an impact
with Bull...
I think it was important that Lee was a young woman in need of protection. I'm not saying that Bull would have robbed an old worn out hag of a grandma like me either...but he likely would not have had that soft spot aching to be filled in his heart without the grief he felt over his sister...which will lead me to maybe break w/ the idea that some may have that Bull's choice to avoid "romantic leanings" was a conscious one. I don't think the thought ever crossed his mind. To him it was like finding a baby bird w/ a broken wing and he only saw his duty to help and protect her above anything else. Had it not been for his sister....perhaps there could be another way for me to see things...but his attitude toward Lee is strictly brotherly supervision and protection...at least from the point of view of my soft and cozy couch....I know others might not agree. As an "oldest" sibling...it is a very deep abiding almost instinctive thing to watch over you little sister (or in my case it was brothers) and you never get over that, no matter how old they get. And I think Bull saw Lee almost like his "second chance".
And I LOVE the look of disbelief on Mike and Spade's faces when they realize he is not going to let them carry out their plans....this is a side of him they have never seen....
When the true identities of the "3 Bad Men" were reveleaed to Lee, they ALL looked at her. They all looked to see how she would react to them being naughty, just like sons to a mother.
They were "3 Bad Boys" at that moment. She didn't flinch... she "forgave" them. They
were her boys, her "3 Bad Men." This helped to bring out the very best in the
"3 Bad Men." And, you are right, her belief in them to be good opened the door for them
taking great pride in their newfound responsibility to her. Again, the power of woman
Never underestimate the power of a woman!! :-) But I have to confess that I think there was more to it than just her being a woman...it was the whole idea of her acceptance of them and her "belief" that they were the men she saw them as...they HAD to be that way now...or they would be letting her down....and THAT is where her true power over them had the biggest effect...they would have likely moved heaven and earth to keep from letting her down once they realized her opinion of them was what gave them their greatest worth.
*And I think that the GOOD in these bad men was there all along. And they had just been living in contradiction to there own true selves until Lee came along and made them see their own potential.*
I believe that. This is why I say humanity is grey. We all have our bad moments, be they
intentionally or unintentionally so. We sometimes have to learn our lessons through our
bad, our mistakes. This does not make the bad all of a sudden good. It's still bad.
Again with the Grey!! :-) I don't know....maybe everyone of us has a potential for Grey when we make wrong choices that lead us away from who we really are....but to me..and here comes that muddy little hill we seem to always slide down....I really do believe that in terms of our true character...we are mostly either black or white.
I believe the 3 Bad Men would have gone back to rustlin' if they would
have lived and left the side of Lee. Left to their own male devices, I believe they would
have returned to their vices.
You do make a good point here. I'd like to think that they would have kept themselves out of the muck of their old lifestyles...but I don't know. I think because her effect on them was SO transforming...they likely could not have left her even if they tried...except in the way that the did in the end...as a sacrifice to her...out of the love they had for her.
It is my belief that if you put a good woman by the side of a man, his chances of being good increase dramatically.
Whoa...I am almost afraid to touch that one w/ a ten foot pole...let me think...I believe what you are saying here is true...if the man is truly good. If he is NOT...then I think he will more likely either drag her down w/ him and/or end up breaking her spirt and her heart (a la Millie and Layne)
So the white hat good guy was one thing and the black hat bad men were another. Don't judge a book.
Ha! I knew I stole my earlier idea from SOMEWHERE!! :-)
I find it amazing that John Ford made such a film in the 20s. It's quite impressive.
The more I hang out in the realm of "classic" film...the more I lose a lot of my pre-conceived notion that movies made before the 1960's somehow had a more wholesome quality to them.... some did to be sure...but there were likely just as many that did not. But having said that, I think the attitudes I see in this story were a little more "cutting edge" than most ....because back then...(based only on my limited knowledge of such things) the good guys usually DID wear the white hat. It seems to me that Ford liked to explore the whole concept of looking for the character under the hat so to speak and this film is a great example of that.
I LOVED the ending to 3 Bad Men. It's one of the greatest endings to a western
(or film) I have seen. It's very similar to The Wild Bunch, but far more emotionally
powerful. I just love "tragic" endings and this one is easily one of the best
.
I have never seen The Wild Bunch...but it is on my list. I like a good "tragic" end...when it is done right. I HATE a wasted sacrifice. And the end to this story shows that the "all" that they gave was SO worth it in the end. The happy family on the prosperous homestead....very appealing ending.
I told the QT that I thought this film ought to be "required viewing" as a predecessor for anyone wanting to study westerns as a genre...To me it is a "standard setter" which is something I like to look for in a really good film. I can see this one being held up as a measuring stick for other films as a comparison...and many would fall short of the mark.
SUNRISE...More George O'Brien! And that's a GREAT performance by O'Brien.
You are so right....and now...a confession...I had NO idea that this was the same guy!!!!!!! And I am so embarrassed because Chris mentioned him the other day too and I looked him up (but truthfully I was looking for Ford titles...he was in several) UGH!!! I am so unworthy of all you film gurus....you all have so much more knowledge about who was in what and such....I am a lowlife wannabe...
Sunrise is such an emotional film for me...I saw it a LONG time ago for the first time...and have seen it a couple of times since....I don't think I could say enough good things about it...but having said all of that...oh...I just have to lean toward these 3 Guys....(I can't call them bad anymore) they have won me over as my favorite silent film ....but boy oh boy....Sunrise is neck and neck w/ them to be sure. It is airing again on TCM I think in March...so if I watch it then...I might have a real dilema on my hands as that little pendulum starts swinging back the other way....it is a reallly close race....
I'm impressed.
Oh...don't be...I got a long long way to catch up to everyone else's expertise here...but I am having a LOT of fun learning about all these films. A year ago...I never even heard of 3 Bad Men...and now..it is among my all time favorite films. And I am a full fledged member in the newly formed 21st Century edition of the Tom Satschi Fan Club. :-)
Enter the "3 Bad Men." Another western pays homage to this, but with an evil spin.
Tell me more...PS..thanks for posting my favorite shot!!! :-) I kept a copy in my files because it is just so cool. :-)
I love this small little moment in 3 Bad Men. It says a helluva lot.
The little side stories in this one...with the landrush and the "settlers" etc...I love that aspect of this story too...and the whole bit about the soil being the true treasure was really nicely done. It could have taken the story a whole other direction if it had become the focus...but it was a nice little bit on the side just to add some very nice flavor.
Let's get ready to ramble. I'm a big-time talker.
I don't know if I should talk to you anymore for that "mistress" wisecrack...not to mention your personal attack on my COOKING!!!!! Perhaps I will be benevolent and try to overlook such unkind behavior....or MAYBE I will just believe in your "goodness" and hope you will act good as a result...it worked in the movie...but then again...I am no LEE....and well...you are NO BULL...or was I supposed to say you are Full of Bull??...it's getting late and my mind might be wandering....
Seriously...I am so happy to finally hear from you on this one.(Hopefully we didn't hound you too close to death!) A very fine ramble Mr Grey...and THAT is no bull!! :-)
I will talk further about the ending in future posts
Ramble on my Grey friend...you are off and rolling...(yes...I said you are off...make of that comment what you will!!) :-)
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Only 8 days later. I'm improving!
OH!!! Yippee Skippee Do!!! April is so right. Grey Guy, WELL worth the wait...but there was never any doubt. But I was getting worried after all that wait I was about to have to give you another of my old Grandma's sayings..."What are you waitin' for..the Robert E. Lee?? (I think that is a song....about a train) Thank Goodness I didn't have to sic GRANDMA on ya!!
I am so happy to see your post!! Let me go get the kidling ready for bed and tend to a few chores...and I will be back (if you can't wait for me...I understand...just check in when you can) I've got lots more to say. April...feel free if you want to start chatting. This is just too good to wait on any longer!!
Grey Guy....you sure know how to keep us on the edge of our seat!! Thanks so much and I'll talk to you soon!!!
Movie Rambles
in Films and Filmmakers
Posted
Hi April...
Oh I'm sure you would have given him a classic, "Peacemaker" reminder. In fact,
you may get your chance because I see no sign of his heeding my own.
I don't want to get too pushy now...maybe he will turn himself in ... we will just have to wait it out a little bit longer and then I will go get that rope....
You never wrote truer words. Though I can only appreciate those words indirectly for the most part (I'm not at all close to my family except, within limits, to my mother), I do have these idealized conceptions about family very similar to how you expressed your feelings.
Well, thanks for the inspiration...but I likely should have put a small disclaimer on what I wrote because I did sort of "universalize" (is that a word?) and perhaps idealize things just a bit. And having said EVERYTHING that I did earlier about those solemn words and the bonds that create those sorts of emotions...I should also have made mention that those same words can sometimes evoke the greatest capacity in some for the complete opposite emotion as well. Those specific familial titles seem to carry with them a set of emotions (whether happy or not) that go deeper than almost any other title a person can wear. And the order I chose them in (parents first then siblings, then spouse, then children) was based on how I personally think we are framed (in most families) in terms of character and personality from the very beginning. I think the biggest and first impression made on any child is usually from the parents and most specifically the mother....but certainly w/ the father as well...and from then on...we are influenced in all the other "emotional ties" we will ever have. This again is a "universal" way of looking at things...there are specific people who may or may not match up to that, but I think in most people, generally speaking, this is the way they are "wired" whether they are even aware of it or not.
It is an interesting thing to watch my nieces and nephews (who are quite a bit older than my daughter) as they are approaching adulthood. I am seeing a lot of my brothers in them....and of course as a result I am seeing my parents as well....and I am already seeing little miss smarty pants quoting and mimicking me all the time...so I am constantly being made aware of the influence I have on her.
Family ties run deep and as already mentioned...when we use the titles those ties create it often seems to evoke specific emotions that are equally as deep in all of us just at the mere mention of the words.
My goodness...how did we end up here?? Weren't we just talking about Tom and his curly hair and blue eyes???????