[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Woo hoo! Nice to still be here. ha. (Glad to see we did not all dissolve  away into cyberspace somewhere. ha.)

 

And, wowsa, Mr. Movieman.. that is a pretty fun feature you figured out. I bet we'll find all sorts of fancy new add ons as we get better acquainted with it all. 

 

PS: Grey Dude, look at this..

 

HA!! Now I can really roll my eyes at you (instead of just telling you to PICTURE me doing it!)   (did I mention Woo hoo??) 

 

Now if they only had a hat pin feature.. hmmm..  

 

 

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Aw, Mr. Movieman.. I tried to post a pic for you with an m&m cupcake.. ha. (because I figured I would just give you a little cybersnack to hold you over until we could get that whole 7K party going, ha) But alas.. I am not educated enough to figure out how to post a pic yet,

 

(so instead, you'll have to take my word for it.. it was delicious!)

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

 

Ha.. thought I'd better "Noir Walk" my way over here and just say how much I enjoyed this thread... you know.. in case it ends up in archive-land after the big upgrade. I know not all threads are going to make the cut, and it's been a good while since we went for a "walk" in here, so don't know if we'll make it back alive when the new board comes up or not. (Boy, would I hate to be the guy (or gal) who has to pick and choose that sort of thing.. there are some really good threads on this board, but I know sometimes you gotta move on, so I guess we'll have to see what happens)

 

Still.. I do remember some fun chats in this one.. , so I guess since we don't know what tomorrow will bring yet.. ha.. if we SHOULD end up on the list of fond memories when the new board comes along... I just want to say THANKS everyone, for the fun time, and we'll see you on the "Noir Side" again, sometime.

 

And.. ha.. if this message is all for naught, and we DO end up on the "saved to post another day" list.. that will be ok too. Either way.. ha.. (to borrow from Carol Burnett) I'm so glad we took this walk together....

 

 

(PS.. HEY look! Even Frank Grimes is out for a walk tonight. ha. Late to the party as usual)

[Western Movie Rambles]

she loved him! And what she was craving for he gave her at the end

 

UGH.. there is that "L" word muddying up the waters. ha. And don't get me wrong.. I DO love a good "love" story.. but I don't see what they felt for each other the same way you do. You say "love".. I say "love-wannabe". I think you had it right in your first post.. it was more about "passion" (and it was passion being disguised as "love", perhaps) But I do confess I have a pretty specific definition for both of those topics, so it could all be just a matter of semantics. And I could see how this could be portrayed as a "Hollywood' version of love, just for the sake of a story.

 

 

And you are right.. he DID want her with him at last.. at the end. But it was not for her sake. It was just all about him. He was afraid.. he wanted her by his side. Not much regret for the way he had lived or treated her. But for the first time I really do think he realized what he MIGHT have had with her, if he had been a different sort of guy. Maybe.

 

She has a lot working against her. She no longer has her parents, she's a half-breed, and now she's living at her father's cousin's place as an "outsider

 

She DID have a lot against her. She never really stood a chance. You can WANT a different life for yourself.. you can even try to make one.. but for someone like Pearl, with so many strikes against her, she didn't have the skills to care about herself. That is something she really needed.. or at least someone to come along and TEACH that to her. But unfortunately, she just ended up making the same bad choices over and over. (and over again) Even knowing the whole long while that what she was doing was self-destructive. She was just living up to what most of the world expected from her.

 

You thought Charles was going to be bad

 

I did at first. (but that was because I missed the very beginning of the movie, so I didn't know if he had a part in the story early on.. I was still sort of trying to figure out who everyone was (and where their allegiance was.. after the big blow out w/ Jesse and his dad)

 

There are many men in this world who would make wonderful husbands. But is that love? And what defines a good life

 

Well.. that really is in the eye of the beholder in some respects. But overall.. I guess I was just saying.. he would not have treated her like dirt. He would have loved her. And even if they might not have had the be all/end all PASSIONATE love that she felt for Lewt.. I think she could have been happy with him.. if she had decided that she wanted someone who loved her and respected her.. instead of someone who just "wanted" her. (when it was convenient.)

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not discarding passion.. when it is accompanied by real love (with someone who treats you as a real person of value.. with goodness and respect). But I will also add that sometimes love does not always come with a great "big bang" moment. It doesn't ALWAYS have to be about "passion" to be of value. Sometimes it is shown to be valuable over time.

 

But that again, would just be my take on it.

 

But you're not! She loved Scott Chavez (Herbert Marshall)! She wanted to go to him but thought best of it. I believe she viewed Pearl as her daughter with Scott

 

Agh! You are right.. that would not be me either. ha. (I missed all that at the beginning) Still... I did admire her. I really do believe she was a good woman who loved her family. At any rate.. I am NO Pearl. (I don't know WHO I would be. ha. Probably NO one. Or maybe I must be someone out on a different ranch living nearby. Maybe I am just an "extra" in this movie and you only saw me on screen for a couple of minutes or something. HA!! Was there a "woman #2 listed in the cast or something?? ha. Yeah.. that would be me, then maybe.)

 

She waited too long to do it! She waited a lifetime to do it. By then, it was too late

 

She did. I do agree. And I think she and her husband BOTH realized it, way too late, sadly enough.

 

 

don't believe it was about self-respect. Pearl had a fire burning in her. She liked Lewt's passionate love for her. I think she was trying to be a good girl for her father's sake. She wanted to do what the respectable people wanted her to do. But deep inside, that's not who she was. Lewt turned her on like no other. Those were honest emotions. So many people sit on their honest emotions because Society makes them do so. In the end, she was with who she wanted to be with

 

And I don't disagree with that entirely. Except for the first sentence. Because I think it is both. I DO believe you are right.. she liked the thrill of being with Lewt. (and I totally missed the parts with her dad, so can't really say anything there) But you are right in that no matter what she tried to do to be "better" she couldn't.. because that was "not who she was" and I still say that is because she had zero self respect. Did you notice how she kept calling herself "Trash" (with great disgust) because that is what she really thought she was. I doubt she felt she deserved anything or anyone better than Lewt. He treated her just like what she thought she was. And even though she HATED being "trash" she couldn't help herself from acting that way. She might have really liked the way he made her feel.. sometimes. But she absolutely HATED the way he treated her at other times. And STILL she kept going back to him.. knowing full well he would not change (no matter how often she kept trying to get him to) It was self-destructive behavior. She didn't know how to make a better choice, so she was locked into that version of "love", with no opportunity to ever be truly happy.

 

I could have sworn you would have defended me

 

Well.. I WOULD... if it weren't for the insurmountable evidence to the contrary that keeps piling up against you !! (meanwhile. where DID I put that hat pin??)

[Western Movie Rambles]

HELLLLLLLOOOOO there, Dude in the Sun.

 

It's great! It perfectly fits Lewt (Gregory Peck) and Pearl (Jennifer Jones); they are going to do each other in

 

It was amazing. I absolutely just did not even hardly believe my eyes. I don't think I could have thought of a better way for the whole thing to play out.

 

Well, yes. Now that I say that.. I think I COULD, ha. (because I would have had poor Pearl not only see the error of at least LEWT's ways.. if not her own, but also send him PACKING!! (even if at the end of a rifle barrel) much MUCH earlier on in the story. If it had been up to me, he'd have been gone a whole LOT sooner. But then it would have been a lot more BORING movie that's for sure!

 

My goodness ME, I just kept waiting and WAITING for her to tell that boy to take a HIKE.

 

I'm shocked that you watched it! It's a passion play

 

Well to tell you the truth, I am too! ha. I didn't know what it was when I first started watching. I had the tv on while I was fixing lunch and I heard Joseph Cotten's voice.. and I went to see what was going on, and then I was hooked, ha. I probably would have passed it up if I had known more about it.. (me and my silly pre-conceived notions, sometimes) So I guess it was good that I stumbled into it. Because I really did enjoy watching (even if it DID bring out some of the Peacemaker in me, ha)

 

I think that Pearl was such a tragic character. Very hard to get a fix on her.. on one hand she utterly broke my heart. On the OTHER hand, all I wanted to do was knock some SENSE into her. I found her to be extremely sympathetic, even while she was making me so angry. ha.

 

Lewt on the other hand.. he just needed to be dealt with. (with a big stick.. or a brick.. perhaps a 2x4 upside the head, ha) What an awful guy. (I had NO idea Gregory Peck could be so despicable!)

 

And Walter Huston and Charles Bickford

 

Wasn't that SinKiller something??? ha. I usually struggle with the way characters like that are handled in movies, sometimes. But I must confess, I thoroughly enjoyed him. (At least in the portions I saw with him... don't know if he was in the beginning parts or not)

 

And poor Charles Bickford.. UGH!! He broke my heart. I wasn't sure if he was going to be a good guy or not. He'd have made her a good husband, I REALLY do believe it.. if she'd have ever been able to find it in her heart to love him even a little. At least she'd have had a good life with him, I do believe.

 

Ugh.. that Lewt.. where is my 2x4?????????

 

He's fantastic! It's great to see Peck playing such a guy. And I love his smirk! You are his girl, Pearl

 

HA!! Not me.. I'm Lillian Gish!! (oh me.. I loved when she stood up to Lionel Barrymore.. "You have screamed at me for the last time." Woo HOO!! That was my favorite line in the whole movie!!

 

 

She's a good girl

 

I really do agree with that. Deep down, I think she at least WANTED to be. She just could not get a grip on her self-respect. She really believed she was "trash" and so she let herself act that way.. over and over again. Poor kid. She never saw what Jesse or Laura Belle (or even Sam Pierce) saw in her. Too bad.

 

I've been on the receiving end of these

 

Of COURSE!! And you deserved it EVERY time!

[Western Movie Rambles]

Duel in the Sun.. oh...so THAT's what they mean by the title, ha.

 

Oh... my.. goodness.

 

That has to be one of the most pathetic endings for a movie I have ever seen in my LIFE!! (and I DO mean that in a GOOD way, oh my goodness, me!)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Woo HOO!! Duel in the Sun! (who knew???) ha.

 

Actually.. a lot of YOU folks did, as I recall some of you mentioning it to me in the past. ha. And I have no good reason for not seeing this story sooner. I am not really sure why I overlooked this film before because I am really enjoying it today.. (even if I did miss a portion of the beginning.)

 

Good golly.. I will need to come back sometime when I can see the beginning too because wowsa what a story. And wowsa! What a cast! Lillian Gish and Jennifer Jones (and Buttefly McQueen even!) And that's just the GIRLS.. because may I just add... oh that Lionel Barrymore, and what about that Joseph Cotten too.

 

And OH me oh MY, that Gregory Peck. Boy, oh boy.. I just want to reach into the TV and hit HIM upside the head, (if only to knock that irreverent SMIRK off of his face, ha.) But maybe that's just me.

 

But getting back to Jennifer Jones for a minute.. what's up with HER!! (I go back and forth with pity.. and disgust). She's just about to bring out the PEACEMAKER in me, for sure. ha. Good gravy girl.. can't you see he's NO GOOD!! ha.

 

Did I mention wowsa??

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 29, 2014 1:22 PM

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Here is what I have just recently watched

 

Hello Mr. Grey..

 

HEY! What do you know I have actually (ha) seen a few on this latest list. (though still not very many) But some I am not sure about.. would have to go in and look them all up to be sure.. so will not be able to comment much until I have more time.

 

What I can remember:

 

Band of Angels

 

I have NO idea for how you would rate this other than I would imagine not TOO high. (sort of a soap opera, perhaps,) And maybe not the most politically correct movie ever made, either. ha.

 

But I remember seeing it for the very first time way (wayyyyyy) back when I was a kid and being totally intrigued.. just by the concept of what it would be like to be Yvonne DeCarlo in that movie. wowsa..

 

Anyway.. I have seen it again since then and likely would have to say I still feel the same. It is thought-provoking just to be able to step outside your own self and imagine if you were her.. OR Sidney Poitier for that matter. Both characters give you something to think about.

 

Born Yesterday

 

I love this movie, if only for the way she comes into her own (eventually) I also like the remake from back in the 80's (I think?) with Melanie Griffith and Don Johnson (ha.. and that may be the ONLY time you'll ever see me tell you that I liked Don Johnson.. but I really did enjoy it)

 

The Gold Rush

 

Woo hoo! Hope you liked it. (not sure if it will be a favorite for you, but hope you found some of it to your liking.. at least as much as the jr high girls in my scout troop did, ha)

 

State of the Union

 

Seen it.. but it's been a looonnng time (I think) I do enjoy some of those Hepburn/Tracy movies, but can't recall where I'd put it in my list.. (if I made lists, ha)

 

Sunset Blvd

 

What a disturbing movie. To me its almost kinda like driving past a train wreck, ha. You know you SHOULD look away, but you just can't. I have not seen it in a long while, but I do recall being very intrigued by how it was all going to play out (given you know at least ONE of the characters' outcomes before it even starts) Will be interested in hearing what you thought of this one.

 

Will have to look into a couple of the other titles before I can say for sure if I've seen them or not. Some ring a bell.. but I can't say for sure why. Maybe just familiar with the title, but I may have seen one or two more too. ha. (what can I say? it's late and I am old.. and my brain cells aren't what they used to be)

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 25, 2014 12:39 AM

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

I should just watch the show to see how ridiculous we really are

 

Ha.. you really should. (it is just a fun screwball sort of show) As for Fred and Ethel..

 

They are ALMOST as nutso as Lucy, ha (except maybe Fred has a LITTLE more sense.. MAYBE) Ethel and Lucy get into one goofball mess after another and Fred is usually on Ricky's side. But sometimes Fred gets dragged into the hairbrained schemes Lucy will cook up too.

 

Still.. somewhere along the way, in nearly every episode, Fred (that's ME) and Ethel (that's YOU) ha.. we bicker back and forth.. and back and forth.. and then we bicker some more.

 

Basically.. you can't live without me.

 

 

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Now I know who I am! I'm still waiting for you on the roof

 

HA! Oh yeah, sure. I'll meet you up there.. (hey.. we can even go together, let's take the truck. You go first)

 

I'm leaving you with the final words

 

Aw man.. what? No HAT PIN??

 

All kidding aside, thanks for talking it out with me. I enjoy the fact that for all our cutting up.. we don't rip each other apart, ha. I like that I can have a chat like that one with you and not end up in a shouting match. Respect is a two way street and I appreciate that you feel secure enough in your own opinions that you don't feel like you have to beat me up with angry words if I tell you my own (and equally certain) points of view. It is nice to have a friend I can chat with that way.

 

All I can say is, Ethel.. we are a rare pair, you and I. HA.

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

You liked The Tender Trap ?! That shocks me

 

Oh good grief. DUH!! No.. I have NOT seen that one. (ha) I looked it up online the other day and I must have had it confused with a DIFFERENT Debbie movie though don't ask me what one.. because whatever it was it HAS been a long times since I saw it (oh for pity's sake, I am a doofus) After reading the synopsis for TTT, um.. yeah. I am with you.. I would be shocked if I liked that one TOO. Ha. (silly me)

 

I believe you'd like the "Maisie" films

 

I likely need to check them out.. they are something that to be honest was TOTALLY off my radar. (I don't even remember hearing about them before, that I can recall) until you started talking about them.

 

I'm all of those! Well, with the exception of Bud Abbott

 

Um.. wrong Bud. HA! (meet me out at the ROCK QUARRY and I will

try and explain it to you)

 

As for Miss Brodie.. ha. I won't keep beating a "DEAD" horse (ha.. did you like how I worked that word in there for you??)

 

I am sure we are viewing this film from our own respective little corners of the world, ha, so that is pretty much how we will choose to see it all. Still, it's been fun to toss her back and forth with you a bit.

 

As for some of the other topics we've covered with regard to that conversation... again, I think this is just one of those areas where you will see it the way you do because of the more liberal ideals that you ascribe to. I have a different take on it.. and I think that there can be room for discussion on the topic, so I appreciate you hearing me out. I will add one more comment though because to me.. I really do think you have a misconception on why at least some parents may think the way that I do.. and it is regarding this:

 

I don't believe in micro-managing a child's life. I feel they need their own space to become a person.... We can't have mom and dad come in and attempt to remove all the bad for us. We have to learn to handle these things on our own

 

I don't think insuring your child receives a quality education is "micro-managing". Now yes.. there ARE some parents who do try to do that.. insinuating themselves into every aspect of a child's day at school (I have seen it myself, so I do understand that is a problem) But I also have seen that in some circles of education, there is a movement to "teach" an agenda.. along with reading, writing, etc, etc, etc. And please.. PLEASE know that I have nothing but the greatest respect for teachers and their profession. I know (and am friends with) several very good and dedicated school teachers. I respect their job and I respect the hard work that goes into it. But what I am talking about is something that goes deeper than even the classroom level. Curriculums that are used today are NOT what they were even back as recently as when YOU went to school (you whippersnapper, ha) and the politics that have become a part of every day teaching can sometimes even be a very subtle thing (and other times it is flagrant) and before you know it, it can become an "us vs them" situation in terms of what the school says about certain topics and what some parents may say.

 

And to me, that is where I draw the line. No one has the right to "un-teach" my child the things that I want her to learn about moral issues. I am not micro-managing her.. I am her parent. And she should not be taught that her respect for me (and the things I teach her in my home) is somehow less valuable or worthy to be learned than the things she hears about at school. And yet things like that happen EVERY day (and a lot of parents don't have the slightest idea) So it is important to stay involved. NO.. not peer over the teacher's shoulder or try to boss the school district around.. etc., etc. But just know what your child is learning.. and be their advocate if you feel there are issues to be concerned about. I guess that is all I am saying.

 

Today, it's a parent's ego that is completely inflated. They believe that everything they believe in must me taught in their child's school. Little do they even consider that there are other parents who don't think as they do. But it's never about the others. It's always about them and their child. It's way too much today. Way too much. But the genie is out of the bottle. Everyone thinks they are right... vanity

 

Well again.. I think I can understand what you are saying. Which I guess goes to MY point as well. It is not the school's responsibility to have to choose one parent's point of view over another. They take too much on themselves in promoting ANY "world view". Words like liberal and conservative really have no place in most school subjects. (unless you are teaching civics or perhaps history.. maybe) And yet you can find all sorts of leanings (one direction or another.. but you would likely agree they are mostly NOT to the conservative side, I may add) And this is true in most school districts (at all levels of education) all across the country. So yeah.. there IS some vanity maybe.. but to me it is on the part of those who seek to promote their own agendas in the classroom at the expense of the parent's rights at home.

 

But, ha.. let's don't get TOO much further down this road, dear friend. I know we've had these sorts of chats before.. and we get all muddy from our heads to our feet.. because we really do come from completely opposite sides of the fence on this. But while I truly do respect your opinion.. I know you are not going to change your opinion and I won't be changing mine. It is fun to bounce the ball back and forth.. but I just know that I have to answer to my own conscience. on this one, and this is how I feel led to think on behalf of my child. It's a very personal matter, to me, and my "vanity" has nothing to do with it, despite what you may think.

 

But HEY! Thanks for putting up with me, all the same.. ha. I promise not to fling any more mud at you.. (at least not with regard to THIS topic) But you never can tell.. I may have to sharpen my HAT pin.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 19, 2014 2:48 AM

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 19, 2014 9:39 AM because I have to answer to my "conscience" not my "conscious' HA!! (Hey.. it was late when I was writing, and I am old.. you do the "math") Ha.

[Off Topic: Favorite Classic TV Shows?]

Liberal with my thinking but conservative with my being

 

Ha.. you are all over the map, aren't you? I am sure we opposite thinkers (but when it comes to our "beings' ha.. I would likely give you a MUCH bigger run for you money than you THINK on who is more boring. ha)

 

I get a kick out of your list. You go from The Closer to Little House on the Prairie

 

Ha.. yes.. and that is where I am "all over the map" too, I guess I love Little House on the Prairie (the books and the tv series.) And I love the Waltons too. But I DO like my crime shows and The Closer to me was just about the most perfect assembly of characters and story for a tv "crime" show I can think of. Very well written stories.. and really fun (and often thought-provoking) characters.. not just Brenda Lee either.. but all her supporting characters as well. They were a fun bunch.

 

And hey.. talking about that show puts me in mind of one OTHER that I should have had on my list. ha. Columbo. I L-O-V-E love him. And the reason talking about The Closer makes me think of HIM is that I always used to say that Chief Brenda Lee Johnson was more or less like a female Columbo.... only without the cigar and trenchcoat.. and with long blonde hair instead.. and way too much lipstick, (OH.. and a REALLY over the top southern accent. ha). But it was all a part of her "persona" and she used it JUST like Peter Falk's character did.. to disarm her "opponents' into underestimating her. And then she'd lower the boom. ha.

 

She was brilliant, cunning, and tough as nails.. but you would NEVER suspect it hidden under all that blonde hair and southern "charm", ha. (and a big plus for YOU.. ha. She was a very "flawed" character. She could see EVERYONE else's shortcomings but her own. it always took her longer to admit her OWN issues than it did to point out everyone else's. And oh me.. she had a LOT of issues, sometimes. (but again.. that was part of her "charm" maybe) ha.

 

 

I think it's great that Quincy was on your list

 

I grew up watching whatever my DAD watched, ha. We only had one tv most of the time I was a kid.. and if dad wanted to watch a show.. that is what we watched. (Guess you could say he had the "bridge" as it were when it came to the tv set, ha.. to borrow from my Star Trek lingo ) Quincy was one of the shows that he liked.. but I really liked it a lot too. It was a LOT different than your standard run of the mill "cops and robbers". It sort of laid the groundwork for all the CSI type shows now days (that frankly don't interest me NEARLY as much.. with all the blood and guts and nasty goo squishing out everywhere, ugh) ha. Quincy was a class act.. the new shows may be good, in some respects.. but they are just too much "shock" value for me.

 

I would struggle to watch TV with you! It would have to be westerns

 

Ha.. yes. We'd both get on each other's nerves with our different tastes. ha. I'd last about 15 seconds with the Simpsons.. and then I would throw a BRICK through the TV just to shut that BART kid up once and for all. ha.

 

We likely could find some common ground with the Westerns.. If you never watched Maverick.. you might enjoy those. A nice mix of wit and adventure.. and of course a little card playing thrown in now and then as well.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 19, 2014 1:39 AM

[Off Topic: Favorite Classic TV Shows?]

Is today "Freaky Friday

 

HA!! No but it IS "freaky" all the same.

 

Meanwhile.. if YOU are Ethel Mertz.. um.. that quiz has GOT to be rigged.

[Off Topic: Favorite Classic TV Shows?]

mr and mrs mertz

Ay yi yi yi yi

 

Ha!! I KNOW! I wonder how scientific that quiz WAS anyway?? ha. I am sure there must be some sort of clerical error or SOMETHING. ha.

 

I guess I will have to live with it.. As long as I don't have to call him "Honey Bunch"

 

I think at the very least, the roles are reversed. Frank definitely would be too lazy to fix the leaky faucet and might not buy his wife a new dress more than once a decade

 

Ha.. I must be a combination of Fred AND Ethel all at the same time.. I don't know HOW to fix a faucet and I am the cheap one.. ha. I likely haven't bought MYSELF a new dress in almost that long (sad but true)

 

Hmmmm... All Time Favorite TV Shows.. hey.. finally a list I MIGHT be able to handle.. but these are NOT ranked in any sort of order (I don't think I could handle that sort of pressure) ha..

 

I Love Lucy

Andy Griffith

Dick Van Dyke Show

Mary Tyler Moore

The Rockford Files

Bonanza

Maverick

Wild Wild West

The Carol Burnett Show

The Twilight Zone

Monk

Little House on the Prairie

Quincy

Law and Order

The Closer

Star Trek the Next Generation

The Golden Girls

The Cosby Show

The Waltons

Newhart (the show with Larry, Darryl, and Darryl)

 

And last but not least.. ha.. honorable mention goes to... (gasp!) Starsky and Hutch (HEY.. I have to list it because I USED to have SUCH a crush on that Starsky. ha. oh the shame.. oh the embarrassment) HA.

[Off Topic: Favorite Classic TV Shows?]

Ha,, let me guess. Ethel, is that YOU? (oh me.. we make quite a pair, don't we?)

[Off Topic: Favorite Classic TV Shows?]

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hello.. My name is Fred Mertz!! (tell me you didn't see THAT one coming from about a million miles away) HA!

 

And here I always used to joke with Jackie that she was Lucy and I was Ethel! Silly ME. Ha.

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Hello there, Mr. Grey,

 

I enjoyed reading your comments on your latest list. I really look forward to that because it helps me get a feel for why (or why not) a film got rated as high or low for you.

 

3. Life with Father

 

You have NO idea how surprised I was to see you rate this one so high. ha. I am glad you enjoyed it. And I can (sort of) see the Archie Bunker angle..ha.. but I am not sure I can stretch FAR enough to see Homer Simpson.. ha. I just liked the way he more or less got led into wife's way of thinking every so often.. even while he was spouting off all his own objections. It was a fun character for Powell to play.

 

6. Hobson's Choice (1954) Now this is a film that Quiet Gal would go for

 

I have seen this one.. a few years ago. I don't remember as much of it as I WISH I did to be able to comment much but I DO remember liking it. I have really enjoyed getting to see Laughton in a variety of roles and settings over the years. I will have to look for this one again, if only just to jog my memory sometime.

 

And although I can't recall it as much as I WISH I could (in order to be able to talk much) I was surprised to see you rate State Fair as low as you did.. it really had some fun moments in it (at least between the mom and the dad). Wish it had not been so long since I saw it so I could comment more.

 

And I have also seen The Tender Trap and A Connecticut Yankee. (though again.. not recently.. ha. You are making me reach back too far into the dark recesses of my far-too-cluttered memory banks to say very MUCH about them.. but I think I likely enjoyed them more than you did.. I think.

 

From your list.. The ones I have not seen but am really interested in would be:

 

12. Thunder on the Hill (1951

19. Horizons West (1952

25. Heroes for Sale

36. Comanche Territory (1950

 

Any others you think I should be on the look-out for??

 

Meanwhile.. back to Miss Brodie:

 

I can't that's truly harming them. It's only making them less of a person

 

I don't think we see them the same way.. because I don't even think "less of a person" is a fair way to look at it. ha. I think they just had a different perspective on what a quality education looked like (and their methods were maybe rooted more in time-honored traditions of teaching that were becoming outdated.. but the education itself was not.) But I can see how others might not agree.. we all have our own thoughts and opinions on the matter.

 

It's as Miss G describes: you would love to hate it

 

Ha.. I do sometimes enjoy a good "ticked off" feeling from a movie now and then. So anything is possible. I may have to see about it sometime, if only to satisfy my curiosity now.

 

I have two teachers in my family and I know what they face on a consistent basis with parents. It only takes one or two to make the school board cower. It's a much different world today. In the past, schools were entrusted. Not anymore. Parents today think they have all the answers and they are always right. Everything has reversed

 

I do see a lot of what you are saying.. but as a parent, I also see the other side. I have worked pretty closely with some VERY good teachers over the years and have witnessed some of what you are saying. But I have also seen some not-so-good teachers and the effects their teaching has had on entire classrooms of children. So there are times when a parent really does need to have more say. It is not so easy to "entrust" your most valued treasure into the hands of just anyone that comes along with a teaching degree. And the word "professional" (as it applies to teachers) doesn't always have the same meaning in one arena that it does in another. School districts, individual schools.. and even individual teachers within each school really do come on a case by case basis these days. At least that has been my experience.

 

At any rate, I think it is a parents obligation to their children to make certain that the education they receive is going to be the one they deserve to have... and not just one that they end up with because of the luck of the draw (based on what school and/or teacher they end up with)

 

But you can see by the dress of the faculty and students the filmmaker is suggesting they are boring, unimaginative, even "dead". Jean is wearing vibrant colors, which means alive. You get the idea that the other teachers are just going through the motions as they have always done. There's nothing new with them

 

I certainly agree with you. But I think what we're being shown is shorthand for "dead" and "alive". Again, I'm not speaking in literal terms. The faculty is breathing, after all

 

You may be right. It could well be that this was his intent in the way they are written and presented.. I just did not see them that way. (maybe because I was on their side more than hers, ha)

 

That's correct. That's always the fear of any kind of teaching or parenting. You don't want to produce a mindless follower who cannot think for themselves

 

Any good teaching (that is of real value) will produce the ability to think and reason for one's self. But having said that.. you have to show a child HOW to do that.. by giving them parameters and reasons. It is not enough to say 1+1=2 if you can't show them the value of what "1" is.. and it is not enough to say this is what is right.. or this is what is wrong.. unless you can show them the value of THAT sort of thinking too. And then when they are old enough.. they can think and reason their way through more complicated problems (the mathematical and the moral ones alike)

 

I've yet to watch that one but I know you and your daughter like it, so that's a good starting place

 

It is a family favorite to be sure. One thing I can say about Chaplin is how much I enjoy the way he can crack you up and break your heart ALL at the same time. He comes through with this story in every way that I enjoy. It is just one that I always think of first for him.

 

There's always one or two who can appreciate the humor or romance, even if it's really old. I remember watching the Three Stooges with my cousin's boys and they both died laughing at it

 

WELL... I am happy (and a bit proud of myself, ha) to report that they ALL loved it. I heard back from parent after parent how much they all enjoyed it. That whole slumber party (and the various different badge requirements they worked on that night) ended up being one of the most fun events that unit had all year. It was a huge success. (ha.. score one for whacky old "Mrs. Ro" and her nerdy old "silent movie")

 

Well, now I'm older and I can find myself in these films. I'm in many of these films

 

Well yes you are, Harry Fabian.. I mean Jabez.. I mean Bud.. Um.. I mean "Difficult Boy" HA!

 

I don't see you as being dead! I think you have too much energy and spirit, and I'm sure you project that with the girls. But the faculty at Marcia Blaine sure doesn't exhibit much energy and spirit

 

I think they did more than you realize. But it is all in how you PERCEIVE such things. They were presented as being silly and outdated for the most part. You were supposed to look down on them (and yes.. ok.. perhaps even consider them.. or their ways "dead" but that is really just a matter of your point of view on what it was they were teaching (and the way in which they taught)

 

And thanks for saying that you don't see ME that way.. ha. as old fashioned and "quaint" or un-important as some of my points of view may be, to me they are just as alive and valuable... and needed in our society as much of what a lot of more "modern" thinkers may believe.

 

And that is true. But I do think we all bring our personal lives into our teaching in some way. It's just that with Jean it dominates her teachings

 

It did not just dominate her teaching.. it WAS her teaching. I think I mentioned it before, but she really was her own "curriculum" She was her own private school within the school.

 

And I wouldn't have liked that film nearly as much! It's Mary Poppins

 

Well no.. I wasn't exactly seeing it THAT way.. ha. But I have seen other films of this "genre" that had a much different spin on the REASON the teacher sort set up his or her own "school" within a school. This is one of the few where I can honestly say in NO way was I at all on the teacher's side of things.

 

She wanted them to be free and alive but that can be dangerous for the majority

 

Oh I did not see that at all. She wanted them to be like her.. or be who SHE thought they should be. (the drama queen, or the one who go on to have her portrait painted, etc,) She had their roles all hand-picked for them. They were free.. and she didn't want them to be. She wanted to mold them into her own pre-defined roles.. or at least she wanted to mold their minds so they would all think like SHE did (because her way to think was the only right way) At least that is how I saw it.

 

If you and Jackie were in Miss Brodie's class, you would be rolling your eyes and Jackie would be inspired. That's your personalities. You are weeding in the garden and Jackie is dreaming in the meadow

 

Ha. maybe. I am not TOO fond of weeding altogether (literally of figuratively, ha) So it may surprise you to know I have done my share of dreaming out there in the meadow along with her, now and then too. But it is what value we place on the dreaming that may be different. I do have a far to practical take on that subject I know. In fact.. it is likely a case where I can be TOO practical for my own good, I confess. So after I got up from dreaming in the meadow.. ha.. I WOULD have to go get my rake, I suppose. ha.

 

And yes.. I agree.. I WOULD roll my eyes at Miss Brodie and probably have something to say BACK to her too, if I had half a chance, ha. (Never let it be said that I am a good "silent sufferer")

 

That's a common conservative fear

 

I don't think "conservative" has anything to do with it.. I just think it is a matter where parents do have the right (and again.. the obligation) to teach their children basic common moral concepts that should not be denigrated by those in positions of authority in the education system.

 

But at those ages, I feel children are now young adults and should be able to think for themselves

 

Some of the girls in that classroom (at least the ones they showed in the WHOLE class... not just the small group) were pretty young. Not teenagers yet. Those were not "young adults" and they were very (very) impressionable.

 

What has been taught in the home is either accepted or not by the young adult. Sometimes a young adult rejects the teachings only to accept them as they mature. Some just march in line as their parents wish. Others are going to rebel

 

This has always been true since the dawn of time.

 

You will find many parents fearing their child thinking and believing differently than them. I've always told myself that I'd be proud of that. I'd want them to find who they are, not who I am. This is where vanity really shows up for parents

 

Maybe it is somewhat a case of "vanity" for some parents. But I am not talking about likes and dislikes and preferences. (I don't care what sort of movies or music or sports team my child grows up to enjoy or dislike, etc.. but I DO confess I enjoy it if she does like some of the same things I do, ha.. so yeah.. that might be vanity) And I know.. so many parents get caught up in producing "mini-me" of themselves in that regard just because that is what they WANT their child to be like.. but what I am saying goes deeper than vanity.

 

Because to me, it is not vanity to teach your child moral principals that you believe they need to learn so they can live and prosper and make sound choices later in life. It is just good parenting. It is just as you mentioned earlier.. some kids WILL adopt their parents ideals, some will not. But it is no one's right but the parent's to say what those ideals and morals SHOULD be for your child. (until the child is old enough to say for himself)

 

And I can almost hear you saying.. well what if a parent teaches a child things that are harmful in the name of "moral concepts". Well.. I could ask the same question about what if the SCHOOL teaches that?? I guess in the end, society DOES have a way of working that all out as well. Because, for example, if I teach my child that certain behaviors and attitudes are the RIGHT way (or the WRONG way) to think or behave, etc.. and they go on to adopt those ideals for themselves as they grow older (or to ignore them, as they see fit) they will end up facing either the social, ethical or legal consequences of that sort of decision later in life. (because if I did my job right.. they WILL be able to think for themselves whehter that really IS the moral compass they want to travel by or not) And the reverse is true as well.. if I did NOT do my job well.. they will likely not know HOW to think unless someone tells them)

 

So the thing that I find disturbing is that there are some in our society perhaps that think parents shouldn't burden a child any sort of "moral" concept either way, and just let them choose for themselves someday what to think or how to act (either based on experience.. or popular opinion.. or whatever the "winds of change" may blow their way) But in the meantime, I am left wondering, how CAN they think for themselves.. or even decide what is right or wrong if they have never been taught?

 

To me, it would be doing your child the worst sort of injustice to leave them with no moral underpinning to work off of that way.

 

We Americans drag our feet with progress but we usually get there. It just takes time. And every generation gripes about how the country is going to pot because their views start to become the minority view

 

How my grandma thinks is slightly different to her kids. How I think is different to my parents. And I'm sure how my niece thinks will be different than me. And who is right? We all the know answer to that. We always choose ourselves. Again, this is the vanity I speak of

 

Well again.. I don't call it "vanity" to want your child to adopt moral principles that you feel truly ARE the right way to live.. but at the same time, I do agree that there is something to what you say. There are things we can do and accomplish NOW that most people never dreamed of back in the day. But when it comes to right and wrong.. don't you think it was ALWAYS wrong for a parent to pass down concepts of racial discrimination.. even in the way they describe a person's ethnicity? (as in the use of the word "colored" that you mentioned.. or even far WORSE words that were often used, back in the day)

 

Vanity doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it was the right thing to do to teach your children that we are all valuable people regardless of our race, (or that we all have a right to be treated fairly, so we should treat others as we'd have them treat us). Some things are about "vanity" (if you are talking about parents who want to dictate.. or have overt influence over what their kid likes to do.. or how they dress.. or where they go to college, or whether they are interested in the same things you are as they grow up, etc) but SOME things are really just right or wrong. Teaching your child the moral concepts you believe are of value to them to adopt in society as they grow up is not a "vain" thing so much as it is just what parents have the right (and again.. at the risk of repeating myself) the obligation to do.

 

And YES.. we can do damage to them (and others) if we teach them the wrong things.. OR if we don't teach them at all. So in the end, we must strive to teach our children well. (ha.. sounds like the line to SONG, now doesn't it??) And at the end of the day, (and this may only be what I believe personally so take it or leave it, but) I believe ultimately we will answer to God for what we did or did not teach them.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 15, 2014 6:18 PM

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 15, 2014 6:28 PM

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 15, 2014 6:44 PM

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 16, 2014 12:14 AM (because, well.. I keep finding REASONS to edit. Evidently, I am getting pretty sloppy in my old age.)

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Hello there, young'un,

 

In London, I think her ego would drive her to try to seek the highest "level" but when she found out how viciously outclassed she was, it would have probably given her quite a blow

 

I imagine you are right about that.. ha. It would be hard for her to stay at a "low level". But even if she did suffer that blow.. I do think she would put on a show.. even while she went down in flames. ha She just doesn't have it in her to not be the center of attention and take a lower profile place in life.

 

Now I never would have thought of that comparison but it's pretty sharp

 

Ha.. well thanks for saying that but to be honest I worried if I stretched my example TOO far. Because I know Miss Brodie and Harry are nothing alike in MOST of the ways that you could compare them.. ha. But I guess I was just thinking about how they both liked to "put on a show" and reel people in, even if their methods (and motives) were completely different.

 

Miss Brodie really should have been an actress...on the stage. Then her behavior would have been not only tolerated but expected...and she'd have gotten paid for it. But being an actress in real life can cost you

 

She would have made a fabulous actress.. she really knew how to captivate an audience and spin a good yarn. But it was her motives that got in the way. And yes.. it did cost her, eventually. But oh me.. she did a lot of damage along the way.

 

I know I've sounded harsh about her, but in fact I understand her perfectly as I've almost always been the perfect 'actress' in my own life. The difference is I don't care about influencing others to think like me. I do tend to chase rainbows like Jean, to exalt art because I can identify with people in it more than with people in real life, and like Blanche, I prefer a Chinese Lantern to a bare bulb

 

Well you could NOT have been anywhere near as harsh on her as I have. I know I have really taken a hard line with her.. but wowsa.. she really got my goat. As for being an actress.. we ALL have our own way of letting our "wishful thoughts" lead us now and then. And some are that way more often.. but I think even the most "dreamy" dreamer can still live in the real world too. You have a good head on your shoulders, kid. So I say.. decorate those bulbs with all the Chinese Lanterns you like.. and dare to dream. I am too practical for my own good sometimes, I know. It is not good to lean TOO far one way or the other. (something like that old saying.. "reach for the stars, but keep your feet on the ground makes the most sense.. ha. But I am likely too afraid of heights to reach TOO far up there, I guess.)

 

Well, I do think you'd find a lot of things to "love to hate

 

Ha.. well you know me pretty well, because I DO love to hate a good bad guy (or gal, as the case may be) I may have to check it out, soon. I remember how you and several others talked it all up one side and down the other a while back. If it is the movie I am remembering you had quite the conversation on it.

 

There are lots of confrontations, long speeches, yes. But they do get at the heart of many things people work terribly hard to avoid confronting, including nice things like the need for love, beauty and to matter somehow

 

And see.. that is where my pre-conceived notions have been a hindrance to me all these years.. because I hold back from films I think I won't like for whatever reason.. and then I I miss out on stuff like that sometimes. I will try to keep an open Tennessee mind in the future, ha. (hey.. maybe it is one of those TOMATO things)

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Hello there, Miss G!

 

She makes the art teacher seem honest, he at least doesn't pretend to be anything but a wastrel

 

TRUE!! ha. He was at least an admitted low-life. ha. He really had very few illusions about who he was and what he was doing. That is what (to me) makes him really just so detestable. He was completely aware of his own (and her) bad influence on the girls.. but he just didn't care. It was all about what HE wanted for his own pleasure. (no matter the wife and kids at home, or the fact he was involving himself in the lives of these young ladies in wholly innapropriate ways. Ugh)

 

Why the men are crazy for her I don't know

 

I think it was for the same reason the girls were.. she was different.. exciting.. and a breath of "fresh air" in terms of the splash of color (literally and figuratively) that she brought to such formal and staid surroundings.

 

I can see how young girls would be crazy for her, though. She massages their dreams while in reality she's only massaging her ego and protecting herself from the truth about her life

 

PERFECTLY said, young'un. It really was all about making herself feel better about her own life.

 

She can get away with fooling herself because she's in a small pond and dealing with impressionable young people...but put her in the big city shark tank and she'd lose a lot of that ego....and her illusions

 

Maybe.. but I have also known people who will still (even that sort of little fish, big shark tank setting) just scream to be noticed. They go out of their way to stand out and be different in any way that will get them the most attention. (I call it the "Hey Look At ME syndrome' ha.)

 

She likely would have had to try harder., but I bet she would have still found a way to surround herself with weaker, or lesser people who might not "stand-out" much so that she herself would stand out more. It's a vicious cycle.. but no matter the "pool size" people like Jean will usually seek out those who are weaker and more easily impressed.. just so they can impress them.

 

Ha.. don't ask me why, (because these two movies do NOT have any sort of common theme) but this makes me think of Robert Mitchum in Night of the Hunter and how he would break into his sermon with his tattooed fingers. Most of the folks he would tell that story to were not as strong (either mentally or spiritually) as they needed to be in order to not be fooled by him.. but Miss Cooper didn't buy it for a second.

 

 

 

I guess what I am saying is.. people who seek to hide themselves behind a persona are only successful so long as their "audience" is willing to either buy into.. or be bowled over by the image that is being presented. But there are always those.. like Rachel.. and Miss MacKay who can see the "real" behind the fa?ade from a million miles away. (And then there are those like Sandy.. who maybe can see it.. but will play along so long as it is to their own advantage)

 

Ro, I know Tennessee does use a lot of sarcastic dialogue, but in the midst of that he actually is one of the most compassionate writers, especially toward the weak and those who feel "different" (that would be me, so I love his plays for that reason). He isn't all about "cat fights", like his pallid imitators

 

I am sure you are right. I have to be honest and say that Cat on a Hot Tin Roof is actually the only one of his stories I can ever recall seeing all the way through.. and as you may recall, after all our back and forth gab session (and back and forth some more, ha) I actually ended up discovering that I really DID like that movie.. even if I've always hated it.. ha. So I am sure it is likely just all my Tennessee William misconceptions working against me. ha.

 

I don't think I have seen any of his other works (at least not completely) I know I have seen portions of The Glass Menagerie, but wow, it's been SO looooonnnnnnggg ago, I don't remember much at all.

 

I think I am most interested in checking out the Elizabeth Taylor/Katherine Hepburn one that you all chatted about a good long while ago.. (can't remember the name right now and am too lazy to go look it up, ha) But I just never have been interested enough to really seek it out.

 

And again.. I confess this is likely due to my pre-conceived ideas that all the folks do in his stories are rip each other apart verbally, ha. (So maybe I should give more of his stories a try before I write him off so harshly.

 

 

PS: Miss Maven... hope to read you thoughts on all things "JEAN" sometime.

 

PS: Grey Dude:

 

You are right. Quiet Gal would absolutely adore Brando in this one

 

Ha.. to borrow from the Duke. "That'll be the day" I can safely say (even though I have no idea about him in this film) that "adore" and "Brando" are two words I don't think I would EVER find myself using in the same sentence together (other than this one maybe.. ha)

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Laffite.. for you:

 

 

 

(the quality is NOT the best.. but not so bad it is unwatchable)

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Hi James..

 

This must be one of those rare movies where the really isn't a clear line drawn for who to root for. You are right.. you would THINK it should be Miss Brodie.. because she is the title character and she is the one you really get to see in all her "glory" (flaws and all)

 

Still having said that.. I am so with the Grey Dude.. the end was spot on perfect. I loved the resolution between Jean and Sandy.. very well carried out. Because at THAT point, you really do SEE who's story it was in the end, (even if only for that portion of the tale).

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Hellloooo there Mr. Grey,

 

Your personality tends to me more literal and "black and white". And that's not a criticism

 

Well thanks for NOT making it a bad thing to think that way. ha. (that would be very black and white of you!)

 

To be honest.. for all my "black and white" ways.. I DO also have compassion for some of the "black" or even the "Grey" characters in stories where they get caught in those sticky moments and can't get out of trouble.. or when the "ax" falls for them (either literally or figuratively) . I may agree that they got what they deserve.. ha.. but I might still feel sorry for them anyway. I just depends on the issue at hand. Some "bad guys" can be very sympathetic.. but there are others, where you just have to cheer when they finally get what's coming.

 

For Jean.. when she finally got hers.. ha.. I almost gave it a standing ovation,

 

There ends up being a sinister side to Jean, without a doubt. But I find her to be a tragic figure. Sure, it's her own doing. But I still feel for her because she's a damaged soul

 

Ok.. she is a damaged soul. But she CAUSES damage too.. and to young children. That is just too hard for me to overlook, ha. (I am not kidding.. I got very defensive for those girls.. it really took me by surprise)

 

With Jean, what makes her so attractive to the young girls (and to me) is undermined by her selfish motivations

 

She was fun and flamboyant.. almost 'other-worldly".. at least to a bunch of impressionable young children. She had them more or less captivated by her beauty and her elegance. She was like a living "fashion model" to them.. someone you only see or read about in a magazine. Only here she was for real, telling them how to think, how to act, what to do if they wanted to be as wonderful as SHE was.

 

But what's interesting is that there are selfish motivations found with the other members of the faculty, as well

 

Possibly.. but other than the men, perhaps.. I did not seem them making choices that were hurting the students.. they were not being selfish on the same level as she was, and not in the way that she was. They just wanted to maintain the status quo.. mostly. Perhaps they were a little bit jealous of Jean too. (maybe?) But again.. I don't think they were going about doing things (directly or indirectly) that were causing harm. (other than the art teacher.. ugh.. did I mention how hideous I thought HE was, ha)

 

A Streetcar Named Desire is another film that would drive you nuts, but for different reasons. I can't see you liking Blanche (Vivien Leigh). She's another woman in her "prime

 

That is one of those movies I have to confess I have avoided over the years. (ha.. I think overall I am not a huge Tennessee Williams kinda gal.. all that shouting.. and everyone cutting each other to pieces.. that is how I always PERCEIVE his stories. I could be wrong) but if that were not enough.. I am NO huge Brando fan either. So it is likely a double whammy for me, ha.

 

I'm sure of that! And in today's world, schools are facing much stricter guidelines and greater pressures thanks to individual parents being given far too much power with the boards that it's nearly impossible to be too creative. We live in such a "touchy" world

 

And see, I look at it from a completely opposite point of view. I don't think parents get enough say, most of the time, in what their kids are being taught. I guess it is all in your perspective. But I don't think that is a good road to go down right now.. ha. So I will leave that alone for another day (one mudfight at a time, don't you know. ha)

 

I loved the ending. It's very "Julius Caesar". And I loved that

 

Hey.. that's it! ha. Et TU Sandy??

 

Miss Brodie is attempting to soothe her own personal failings and regrets through her girls. She views herself highly and feels the girls would benefit to be just like her. Jean is lying to herself. She only sees herself how she wishes to be seen not how she really is

 

I think we ALL do that sometimes.. but she made a career of it. (ha.. literally) You have her described just right. She really thinks everyone wants to be just like HER (or ought to want)

 

I know quite a few people like Jean

 

Me too.. alas.

 

I actually had a family member say they were a "visionary". And guess what? They firmly believe it

 

Ha.. that reminds me of a line from one of the kidling's movies. (Underdog) when someone calls Simon Bar Sinister "insane" he says.. "I prefer the term 'Visionairy') ha. We quote that line around here all the time (and I don't THINK any of us really mean it.. or DO we??)

 

I think it's more of the first two than the third one. I feel Ronald Neame was drawing sharp lines with the faculty. They were shorthand for "by the book, unimaginative, non-individualistic". They are very much old-fashioned and outdated compared to Jean. Jean is "alive" and they are "dead

 

Hmmm. I don't know that I would agree completely. I think you are right in that he did draw pretty sharp lines between Jean and the "old school" faculty members. But I don't think they were as strong as "alive" and "dead" Because I think those old gals had a lot of life left in them.. and showed it more than once. I think they were just more or less portrayed as you mentioned earlier.. very conservative vs very liberal. Or perhaps very "old school' and very "modern" in the way they thought, acted, and dressed. The other faculty (with the exception of the art teacher, of course) really seemed to embrace the "old ways" as the "best way"

 

And I will take a side not here to just add that maybe that is not TRUE entirely.. (because they may not be the best way if something new comes along that is better) but it is not wrong entirely either. Sometimes you have to find a middle ground. Just because something is "old and traditional" doesn't make it invalid or dead.

 

Anyway.. I do agree.. there were some pretty sharp lines of contrast being drawn to be certain.

 

The four primary schoolgirls are part of a cult with Miss Brodie being the leader of this cult. She's going to have great sway and influence over them but for different reasons. I think it's as you say, it can be more of subconscious influence

 

OH "cult" is a perfect word. I agree that is just what it was too. They really were her "followers" even if they did not exactly embrace all her teachings in the same way. They were all influenced by her (to the extreme) in their own way.

 

You would! There's no way I was going for any of these folks. Not to say that any of them weren't likable or kindly. It's just as a student, I wouldn't be thrilled with any of them

 

Ha.. and I can understand that. It goes back to what I was saying earlier.. just because something is "old" it doesn't make it invaluable.. just unpopular, perhaps. Look at the movies we watch here.. most "young" people.. kids especially don't give them a second thought. They can't even stand the THOUGHT of watching an "old movie' or a black and white movie.. and HEAVEN forbid.. a SILENT movie.

 

Which is funny.. because for as "old" as they are.. we all sit here and talk about these movies like we just watched them for the first time yesterday. Oh wait.. I DID just watch this one yesterday.. or ha.. two days ago, anyway.

 

And ha.. here is the REALLY funny coincidence.. even as I type this, the junior high unit from the scout troop I am with is having a slumber party tonight at one of the unit leader's homes. so they can watch a silent movie. (NO kidding) They are earning their cinematography badge and watching a silent is of the requirements. And the leader for that unit is not even ALL that much younger than I am. I think she just turned 40 maybe... and SHE had not ever seen a silent movie herself.. so she did not have any idea what one to choose for them to watch or where to find one.. ha. NO I am not kidding and I am not making this up.. ha.

 

So she came to me and asked me what I would recommend and I told her they should see Chaplin's The Gold Rush (because I figured it had comedy.. romance.. even some action. ha.. all the right "mix" for Jr. High age kids)

 

So I am looking forward to hearing what they all thought. I just watched it earlier tonight myself so I can have it fresh in my mind the next troop meeting so I can ask them about it. I really do hope at least some of the girls enjoyed it.(but having said that.. ha.. I won't get my hopes up TOO high.. those "old dead silent movies ARE out of date and "uncool", don't ya know, ha)

 

Anyway.. I guess what I am saying is.. that it is likely one of those "perspective" things. I don't say that their ways of teaching in that school were the ONLY way to go.. but I think they were maybe being presented a bit "silly" because they were not as "valuable" in the minds of the girls.. and probably the writer of the story too, ha, if the truth was told.

 

Quit dancing around the point! They are YOU! There's nothing wrong with that. You identify yourself more with the faculty

 

Ha.. I do. (maybe that is why I am trying to defend them as NOT being dead. ha. How unhappy would I be if someone said that about ME. I would just have to reach out and kick them or something and say, ha.. Does THAT feel dead to YOU?? (ha. you really should not have given me that word "dead" ha.. I am just milking it for all it is worth, now)

 

Now let's ask Jackie who she identifies most with

 

I think I saw you call her name in one of your earlier posts.. I imagine I can guess too.. but will let her tell us both.

 

Don't worry, I ain't the art teacher

 

Thank goodness.. because as Mrs. MacKay, I would have to kick you.. I mean kick you out too.

 

But she'd hate me. I'd challenge the heck out of her. Then again, maybe that would turn her on

 

Ha.. and I bet you are right about both.

 

But all kidding aside.. that is why I think she was such a waste as a teacher. She did not WANT her kids to think for themselves. She only wanted them to think what SHE thought. (the question about the painting was a perfect example.. when she asks something like who was the best or most important Italian artist in history, and one girl answers Michaelangelo and she says NO and tells them it is HER favorite artist instead (I can't remember who it was) They were not allowed to think critically or individually.. they were just allowed think what she wanted them to, and nothing more.

 

How they feel about themselves comes out through the mockery. This is especially so with Sandy (Pamela Franklin). Sandy wants to be Jenny (Diane Grayson). She wants to be put on a pedestal by Miss Brodie. She wants to be the beautiful one. It burns her that Miss Brodie doesn't think of her in those terms. So what does Sandy do? She goes and does what Miss Brodie wishes Jenny would do. She's attempting to prove Jean wrong. It's all in spite. Everything Sandy does is really cloaked in envious spite. She really is an assassin, because she does so for selfish reasons

 

I think you are right. She was smarter (and in a lot of ways, stronger) than her teacher and more or less saw everything that she was doing and pretty much just capitalized on it. At least as she got older, anyway. She may not have started out to be as harsh as she ended up.. but she ended up that way, none the less.

 

If I were to take the film literally, my issue with Jean would be with her pushing sex with an older man on such young girls. That cannot be. I also have issues with her teaching one-sided (Fascism) and not allowing for a dissenting opinion or just the idea of another opinion. That's too close-minded

 

Those were just symptoms of the problem. The real issue was that she took her "personal" life and made it the curriculum. Everything they studied was a lesson in Brodie... what to think, how to act, who to like (or love) and why. Close-minded doesn't even begin to cover it.

 

But I definitely love her romantic style and her willingness to show a bigger world

 

I think that if she had just used her 'powers" for good instead of evil ha. (in terms of the influence she had over the girls) she could have made a MARVELOUS teacher, just for the reason you say. It COULD have been a whole other movie.. especially if she other faculty were presented as you say "dead" and cruel even... and then along comes this free spirit to break them all out of the mold of the cold, dark, girls school way of life and add a splash of color to their wardrobes while she's at it. ha.

 

THAT could have been a totally different movie where that sort of teaching style FIT and made sense.. and even was GOOD for the girls to be exposed to.

 

The way it was portrayed in this movie.. it was reckless, selfish, and totally corrupt. That is why I used the word I did earlier.. damaging.

 

To me, teaching is about inspiring one's students. You will find a more receptive class, one willing to listen and imagine if you are inspirational and romantic. This is Miss Brodie. The rest of the faculty leaves one cold

 

Well.. I do agree that a llarge part of teaching IS (or should be) about inspiring your students to learn.. but then you still have to TEACH them something valuable once they are inspired. I think Miss Mackay said it best.. (something like) "Culture cannot compensate for a lack of hard knowledge"

 

It's always difficult to know what truly is harmful to children and what is not. I'm speaking emotionally. We may feel as if we are raising our children well but we may be instilling emotional qualities in them that could prove to be harmful to them and others. This could be done so indirectly, and it's often done unintentionally

 

And see.. I agree with that one hundred percent. (and that is why I DO have such a hard time with Miss Brodie) She was instilling very harmful ideas (and ideals) in all those girls. (sometimes directly even, and very intentionally) And yet I don't think she had a clue (or even cared) that what she was doing was at all the wrong thing to do.

 

Some of what Miss Brodie taught could prove to be terribly helpful to those girls. It may encourage them in some areas they would not be otherwise

 

Ha.. that to me is like saying that it could be valuable if she taught them to put their hand on the hot burner of the stove.. just so they could learn later in life they would get burned.

 

She may challenge them to think and feel differently than they are. That can be helpful or harmful or both. Basically, how children are raised from birth through the school years can be extremely "gray". We all wish it were "black and white", but it just isn't

 

No.. it isn't all black and white, you are right. And that is where the "gray" comes in, for certain. However.. I think many teachers (especially those in institutions of higher learning.. high school and college) take way too much on themselves to "un-teach" parental values that their students learned at home. .

 

As in: How "intolerant' of you to say that there are moral standards that are always true or not true. Or "How "STUPID" you must be if you hold to "traditional" values these days" etc, etc. Intellectual intimidation to me is one of the worst forms of bullying.. and it happens a LOT to kids who come from more conservative backgrounds when they try to speak from that point of view in a lot of schools these days.. but again.. I won't go much further than that, because I don't think that is the mud fight I want to have with anyone here right now. ha.

 

I always say we humans are awfully vain. We are absolutely convinced that how we view things in life is the "right" way

 

It's true. Sometimes it IS about vanity.. but sometimes it is about what really is right (or not) It is a fine line now and then, I know.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 8, 2014 1:22 AM

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Oh, this is going to be fun

 

Well it HAS been a long time since we had a good ole fashioned mud fight...

 

You have certainly absorbed the film how I thought you would. And I can tell that Jackie saw it a little differently. It's all about our own personalities. I think my view is going to mirror Jackie's, for the most part

 

And that would not surprise me. I can see you and Jackie coming down on the opposite side of the fence from me on this and I already mentioned that I likely watched this film from a much different point of view than it was intended to be viewed. I will likely end up out there on my lonely mountaintop again with this one.. ha.

 

It is possible, if I had a different mindset about films of this nature in general (as they really just are not my "thing" most of the time.. ha) maybe I would have found a different spot to land on for the whole situation, perhaps. So I can see why you and Jackie can find more sympathy for her than I do. I bet most folks do. Because I DO feel I viewed her pretty harshly. And I said some things that maybe on the surface, sounded pretty judgmental even, I am sure. If you view this film from a more open minded perspective.. what I said is likely going to sound mean. But I don't mean for it to. It is really just how I saw her because I could NOT view her from such an "open" mindset. (due to some of the situations that took place in the story)

 

I agree she was lovely.. and very engaging too. She was one of these sorts of teachers that I think most girls would LOVE to have had at that age. She was fun.. and she bucked the system.. she was very "in the know" about all the various more sophisticated ways of looking at life. Who could blame those kids (and the men in the story) for falling under her spell.

 

But looking at it from the lens I have in front of me (from my own life perspective and the jobs that I have had where I have spent a very large portion of my life working with children) I just have too hard a time with some of those situations I mentioned (specifically the responsibility she had to her students.. and the way she treated them, not to mention the way she MIS-guided them to the point that they made some really awful choices) and so I find it very hard to have any affection for Jean Brodie at all.

 

I took her pretty literally.. so from that point of view.. she just makes me mad.

 

And I think that is the issue. It is most likely in the way she is presented that makes it so possible for us to see her so differently She was not shown from a "one-sided" point of view.. so if you can embrace BOTH sides of her.. you can find the sympathy that I can't. Because she WAS very charming at times.You almost enjoy some of her little "picnic" chats.. almost. But it is the context in which the story occurs (and the end result of all her teachings in the lives of some of her students) that really made it hard for me. It loses all that 'happy charm" when I see the sinister side of it.

 

Even though she is presented both ways (charming with a side of sinister) I just can't see her that way. It may be my "black and white" mindset getting in the way, perhaps. But I just have too a hard time with some of the things that happen in the story to find any affection for her.. despite her charm.

 

I think Jackie's comparison of Jean to Blanche is as spot on as it gets. I feel Jean is a damaged soul, just as Blanche is. Their days (prime) have passed them by and they are left to cling to their dreams and delusions

 

I have never seen that film.. so I really don't have any comparisons. But ha.. it is funny that you two should mention Blanche.. because when she was telling her story about Hugh.. just for a moment I caught a glimpse of a completely DIFFERENT Blanche.. ha.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQhHud7aCps

 

Of course.. I imagine Jean would be THIS Blanche's evil twin.

 

I will answer your message later on

Ha.. good! I will go sharpen my hat pin right now!

 

.

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

Hello Jackie!!

 

Gosh, Maggie Smith was great! I can't think of another actress who could have played this role - she's deluded and magnificent and strange and wonderful and messed up badly. Her need to shape someone into a do-over of herself is really potent and awful. You can see why her 'little girls' are so taken with her and her dreamy, romantic but dangerous ideals. And she's beautiful too. I forgot she was ever that pretty

 

She literally had them all eating out of her hand (at least at the beginning) It was like a little stage show all for them.. on her life and her opinions and how she thought the world ought to be. Every lesson was a soliloquy. ha.

 

The one girl who just sat there sobbing at the telling of her story about Hugh dying on Flander's Field... OH me... ha.. I actually laughed at that part at first. And then I saw how really.. that was JUST what she expected from them. (I bet she wished they ALL had been driven to tears.. but one was enough. Anything to add to the "drama" of the moment (to get the maximum effect) And the way she used MARY for that purpose there towards the end.. AGH. (if she had been allowed to continue.. she'd have been telling THAT story for decades to come, making young girls cry even MORE, at every telling.

 

 

Don't ever cross Miss McKay. She'll wait for an opportunity and take you down in the end. (Ro!) hahahahahahaha

 

HA. Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 6, 2014 2:58 PM

[The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread]

HELLO Mr. Grey..

 

You're killing me! You definitely are Miss MacKay

 

Ha.. when it comes to defending my "gehls".. and the integrity of the education they receive from our organization.. ha. I make Miss MacKay look like an amateur. OH for pity's sake don't get me started.

 

I have to confess.. what little I knew about this movie.. I did not go into it with very high hopes for liking it. And I STILL can't say I "LIKED" it (because it would be like saying.. I like a tooth ache" ha. But I HAD to keep watching to see how it was going to pan out.. I had to know what the end result was going to be for everyone. (would it be an ambiguous ending..where nothing ever really resolves.. and it was just going to be a commentary on the experiences of this ONE group of girls.) OR.. was there going to be SOME end result to all the different ISSUES at hand. (And boy, oh boy.. was I glad that there was an "end result" ha. I DID so love the way it ended)

 

So to be honest.. despite the fact that stories like this are not really my "cup 'o tea", I think this film affected me in a lot of ways I didn't expect (because I did not count on feeling so defensive for those girls.. but I DID) I usually do not have much patience for "coming of age" type stories (set in private schools or summer camps, etc, etc, etc) ha. So my tolerance for the type of student mischief to be found in stories like this is usually pretty low. But they really didn't FOCUS so much on that (as I expected) it really was more about Miss Brodie's influence over them.. and the way she more or less worked to mold and warp them into the people she THOUGHT they out to be (to suit her own need to be worshiped and adored) and it was about how that all sort of came to a head and the resulting backlash for it. Very unexpected scenario for me.. I must confess.

 

And you know.. I must confess, too, that I likely had a hard time watching this film in the spirit it was intended..because at first, I wasn't sure what to think of it.

 

Was it:

 

1) A coming of age story about Miss Brodie's students and the impact she had on their lives? (for better or worse) Or...

 

2) Was it a commentary on Miss Brodie and her unorthodox methods of teaching (or not teaching) the girls about how to enjoy more "cultural" pursuits (as opposed to all that "hard knowledge"). OR...

 

3) Was it a really (really) dark "comedic" portrayal of some of the various types of teachers to be found in an all-girls school setting? (the philandering hypocrites.. the too-tightly-wound and by-the-book administrator.. the "nosey goodie-goodie old-maid out-dated teaching staff.. etc, etc. They were all there.. and in some ways.. I think I was supposed to find them humorous.(or was I???) ha. Because the fact of the matter is the humor is not too obvious in most of the story and when it IS obvious (and clearly trying to be funny) it is so dark.. you almost can't see it. (at least I couldn't)

 

 

And now after watching it all. I think if I am honest... to me it must have been all three.

 

But then again.. I am not so SURE about #3 ha.. and that is another reason I found it more able to be watched (than I might have otherwise) because while the "stereotypes" for some of the teachers were mildly amusing... I was on their side. ha. I wasn't sure if they were SUPPOSED to be LIKED (or if I was supposed to find them somehow "un-cool" or "pass?") But I DID like most of them. And I felt sorry for the fact that they might have even been portrayed in the manner that might have tried to make them look silly.

 

I enjoyed the music teacher who loved to sing (to the point of almost being annoying about it) ha. Poor guy.. he finally gave up being twisted and turned and used and found someone to really love him.

 

And the little "spinster" secretary with her beady eyes.. I do admit she was entertaining the way she sort of just "stared" but never said anything. ha.. but what about the little "spinster" ladies with the sewing class.. I THINK I was supposed to find them silly and old-fashioned.. but I LIKED them. (ha) I liked the chemistry teacher.. I even liked the GYM teacher. ha. (though to me she was the least-likable perhaps)

 

The only two teachers that just got on my nerves.. or that I felt were wholly DIS-likable were Miss Brodie.. and the art teacher. (ugh.. what a hideous guy HE was.. bleh)

 

And you know.. we were joking about me "being" Miss MacKay. but to be honest, to me, she was an alright gal. (I only wished she'd tried harder to figure out a way to get rid of Miss Brodie SOONER.. but then of course that might have made it a much shorter movie)

 

And ok, I admit.. maybe the reason that I LIKE all the "silly" characters is because to ME they aren't so silly. They enjoyed their jobs.. they LOVED teaching and showing the girls how to improve their minds and their lives.. (and they KNEW that she didn't) and that to me is what makes them much more relatable to me.

 

From the very beginning I just wanted to take Miss Brodie outside and knock her around a bit. ha. (never let it be said that I don't take my movies personally) But when she starts talking to her students and telling them all how wonderful she is... all the world was a stage to her (or at least that little corner of the world was) and those poor kids were her captive audience. They never stood a chance. Either way.. by "loving" them or just "tolerating" them.. she expected their worship of her.. without question. (and if you DID try to question her... you were cut down and ridiculed for it) I say again.. those girls never had a chance. Most of them she just tolerated. She'd cut them down and insult them.. and then accept their worship of her for doing it.

 

But worse still.. those she "loved" she propped up and attempted to create little mini-versions of her own self (the drama queen "actress" the "pretty face to be adored", etc). And poor Mary.. the way she is insulted and put in her place from the very start.. and then she is placed in the "inner circle" as a pet-project (because Miss Brodie saw it as her DUTY to fix whatever was "wrong" with that made her so unworthy. How benevolent of her.)

 

Agh.. I just wanted to scream at all of them.. get away!! ha. Poison!! Back off, girls!! I'll handle this! ha.

 

But to be honest.. I LIKED that the inner group of girls was really her undoing.. because the only one who really had any respect for her.. overall. was Mary (poor kid) The others made fun of her behind her back.. and really did not have much "love" for her as much as they just fantasized what it would be like to "BE" her.

 

Did you notice that Sandy wouldn't even let Miss Brodie "define" her the way she attempted to do the others?? She popped up saying "I'm the dependable one' when Miss Brodie was at a lack for words to describe her. She was an "independent" thinker and Miss Brodie underestimated her (because she TRULY believed they all worshiped and adored her. It never entered her mind that any of them would have a thought in their heads that she didn't put there for them.

 

Mini spoiler:

OH good gravy was it ever a rich moment for me when she realized that at least SOME of her students did NOT worship her as completely as she thought for.. and then for her to realize it was one of her PRIZED students who had hit her with the worst possible betrayal.. Poetic justice. Very gratifying to see that play out.

 

Because at the risk of sounding all "high and mighty" here.. I just have to say that it is a privilege to work with children.. to teach them and be a mentor to them. And I take that pretty seriously. And what makes Miss Brodie so despicable to me is that she takes that privilege and tramples it under her lovely designer-shod feet! OH for pity's sake indeed! Miss MacKay may have been stern.. and she may have even been hardnosed.. but.. ha.. she is no "Peacemaker".

 

And all kidding aside, I may say all that "peacemaker" stuff as a joke.. but if you want to bring out that side of me faster than anything.. harming children.. either physically, or mentally, or spiritually is one of the fastest ways I know. And to me.. Miss Brodie wasn't just a bad excuse for a teacher.. she wasn't just a poor role-model.. she wasn't even just a "drama queen". She was harmful, and in some very direct (and also indirect) ways. I just about wanted to crawl through the computer screen as I was watching her and shake the living daylights out of her. ha. I say again.. Miss MacKay would not have had anything on me.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Mar 6, 2014 2:35 PM