rohanaka

may have completely misinterpreted this I don't know... the way I was looking at it may not be right either.. but I thought he was not so much concerned about reforming as he was about hitting the "big time" and getting his old life back. I'd need to go back and review that whole thing again.. but I recall him sitting there w/ all his little "party girl" friends laughing it up showing them the plans he had made (but I really don't recall what they were for specifically so I might have missed something) Anyway... when he found out the money was gone.. it was too much for him to bear to think how he was still "stuck" as a penniless playboy and he jumped. Maybe IF the Grey Guy ever shows up (oh SHIFTLESS WONDER!!!!!! ) ha.. he can give us his take on it all. Either way.. what a sad, tragic.. selfish thing to do. I was thinking last night about how REALLY.. by giving the money away.. it was the FIRST time Thymian was given ANY ownership of her own circumstances. And I like that when she DID finally have a choice (about the rest of her life and what it would be like) she STILL (despite all her tragedy) had a kind enough heart to make sure her little sister was spared her own tragedy instead. They COULD have ended the movie right there because really.. at that moment.. no matter WHAT her future held.. it was the first time Thymian was truly free. (but I am glad we got to see the ending the way that it played out instead.. it really WAS a great way to end it all)

I don't think anyone was trying to imply that people who are against the current administration are automatically racist. No one was writing off a whole group like that Respectfully.. the comment that was made several posts back (regarding a group of people collectively referred to as "The Tea Party) to me does seem to be doing just that. But again..that is only my opinion and I do not think this is a good place to argue for or against that point of view, so I will refrain. As to your other comment (regarding the existence of racism today) I did acknowledge the same thing in my original post so we are in agreement. And I also said that it is not as one sided a subject as it used to be. Though it may sound a bit confusing to say it this way.. I think that racism (especially racism in this country in its present day form) seems to be an "equal opportunity" offender for many as it is found in MULTIPLE cultures and ethnic groups and aimed at numerous targets (So really, it can no longer can be viewed as just the standard "whites versus blacks" problem the way it may have been seen as in the past). Tragically, it seems as though some people (no matter their own racial or cultural background) will always seek to find SOMETHING to dislike about one group or another.. perhaps that is human nature. But isn't it sad that so often the choice to do that is based solely on something as inconsequential as how we LOOK or who we are related to, rather than what we do or say.

Ms Cutter says: On another note, DW Griffith was born in 1875, ten years after the end of the Civil War. The South was devastated emotionally, financially and literally. One of the first things to come out of all of that was the building of the myth of the "Old South" being a lanquid, romantic way of life where everything was good and grand and the War (and the Yankees and the Negroes) destroyed all that. That myth conveniently overlooked the real facts of the War and the reasons for the war as well as the realities of Reconstruction. That was all replaced by the myth of the Old South and the "Moonlight and Magnolias" dream of a way of life that had never existed. That myth got handed down not only to DW Griffith but to the majority of Southerners from Griffith to Margaret Mitchell to Molly Haskell and many others in between Wow.. I have to say there is a LOT going on in this thread. Some of it is more disappointing to read (in terms of some folks' attitudes) than others.. but the thing that kept going through my mind was much the same idea as Ms Cutter has touched on here. Much of the issue surrounding this film is a matter of remembering that it was borne out of an ignorant perspective that pervaded much of southern culture (especially during the time this film was made). Now before I say anything at all, I have to confess two things.. first, I have not seen this film (and likely never intend to) and also.. I quit reading this thread (backwards) when I finally reached Ms Cutter?s post (so maybe someone already mentioned what I am going to say.. so if that is true.. then forgive the repeat. But I wanted to say thanks, LZ , for helping to put this subject in perspective. Because to me.. (based only on what little I have seen or read of it) that is what this film is... ONE perspective (right or wrong) on the events of this time in history. I was happy to catch Moguls and Movie Stars the other night because I found the entire program to be very informative, interesting, entertaining. And I remember when the discussion turned to the subject of Birth of a Nation, I found myself thinking then (about the controversial subject matter) that it all more or less had to do with the perspective of the people making the film. Not to defend the **** or folks who agree with them (past, present, or future) in ANY way... but there WAS a lot of devastation that happened to the average (and lower than average.. meaning income) people in that area of the country during and following the Civil War. And though some might think "Well. that's what they deserved for living in an area that was so racist and hate filled" I would have to disagree. Not ALL of the tragedy that befell people (of Caucasian race) was justified or deserved. I would even go further and say that just as there were GREAT injustices done to the people of African American descent in our nation.. there were also MANY injustices done to others in the south during that time as well. And no matter how wrong.. I can see how SOME of these people could have been ignorant and misguided enough to think that the evil and hideous acts of groups like the **** were good. (at least until enough people became better educated about the REAL evil intentions of such groups.. Good gravy.. one thing that I think we all can say for certain is that history DOES eventually teach us about how things we ONCE thought to be true may NOT be so true afterall.. if we are willing to look and listen) So truthfully, I believe that ignorance was the REAL perpetrator for much of the "myth" of the "old south" But isn't that the case with MOST myths that live on and prosper? My golly.. at the time this film was made.. the history books had not even been WRITTEN on this subject yet. (or if they had.. they were few and far between) And if truth (about this.. or anything really) is kept down by ignorance (either willful or not) then how can anyone (apart from an objective look back at historical fact) truly KNOW what really happened unless they were there? Back in this period of history (really only a few decades before this film was made) there were not any sorts of "24 hour" cable news shows doing investigative reports on "INSIDE the REAL ****" etc, etc so people had to rely on their own experience and what they heard passed down from one person to the next about who the **** was.. and what their real agenda was all about (especially if they could not read.. or what they were told by the local press.. if they did not have access to newspapers from anywhere outside their own local area) So myths WERE likely based on some ignorant person's point of view... and allowed to grow and prosper for some time by other (whether willfully or not) ignorant people. That is NOT a new thing in human history. It has happened for centuries (for reasons either good or bad) and not just in the south.... and not just over issues having to do with race. . I do not believe that anyone living in today's "educated" society has any real concept (based on personal or practical experience) of what it must have been like for the people living and growing up then (Caucasian or African American) to hear first hand accounts from actual participants in daily events that happened before, during, and after the Civil War. So having said all that, (even though I have never seen the film) I am thinking, GEE.. maybe we need to keep the PERSPECTIVE of the people who made this movie in perspective ourselves if we are to truly understand it. Is Birth of a Nation a propagandized piece of fiction that is based solely on a hyped up and highly emotional perspective of the "glorified" south? Since I can't base my opinion on having WATCHED the movie.. I can only guess that it most likely is just that. But I will also add that (especially NOW days) t is also likely just that and little more. Do I agree with the point of views expressed in this film? NO. Do I think it is GOOD for the people who made this film to believe the way they did? NO. But neither do I believe there were any sorts of "sinister" motives.. or evil intent to infiltrate and possibly even change people's thinking on this subject. In fact, (though I clearly have no way of knowing it) it would not surprise me to learn that the director even expected the viewer to agree with him already. Because that would be more in keeping with the sort of ignorance this film seems to be all about (but who am I to say.. this is only my opinion, and I am certainly no authority on the subject) This film MAY well be a perfect display of the (perhaps willfully) ignorant mindset of some in our nation's history.. (and I freely admit I do not know this for CERTAIN) but I do not believe (especially veiwed from today's perspectives) that is is anything more than that. To say it should not be shown because it may cause some folks to embrace racism (or that others might be offended by its racist message) is not leaving any room for the sort of THOUGHTFUL way this film COULD be viewed and discussed objectively from an historical perspective, and that is a shame. History (good or bad) is only valuable if it is allowed to be shown in all its "UGLY" along with all it's glory.. and racism (especially the type discussed in this film) is an UGLY part of our history as a nation.. and yes.. does still exist in various forms in our current society as well. (though it is NOT at all as one sided a subject as it may have been in the past) But to say that simply showing this film.. or discussing it is going to spread any sort of hatefull message that someone isn't already feeling in their heart to begin with.. to me is a form of ignorance itself as well. At the very least I see it as an attempt to censor people from thinking for themselves. To me, it would be a GOOD thing to give at least a LITTLE credit to those who do want to discuss this film to be MATURE enough to figure out what is right and wrong to think for themselves. And I value and appreciate this chance TO discuss it even though I have not seen it for myself.. so for that reason alone, I am glad TCM brought this film along as a part of their series on Moguls and Movie Stars. So a having said ALL that.. I guess what I am saying now would be (to those who only see this film as some sort of heinous mouthpiece for the director to spew and propagate his hate and bigotry and believe that Birth of a Nation is NOT worthy of viewing or discussion as a part of filmmaking history in general)... Oh for pity's sake.. lighten up. (But feel free to disregard my suggestion as we are all certainly entitled to our own opinions) At any rate to echo what (I think it was) Mr. Dobbs has said.. for those who think it is not worthy of being watched.. maybe you are right.. so don't watch it. (again..never having seen it, I can't say for sure) And I will also say this (keeping in mind that I am no authority on the matter.. and I am speaking only from my OWN personal perspective) To me.. this film DOES deserve a place in any historical account of early film making if only to serve as an ugly reminder of what ignorance (be it willful or otherwise) can produce.. and so for that reason alone (if one does not want to consider it's value as a "classic film") perhaps it IS still valuable to be viewed from THAT perspective. (And as a side note to those who would deem it worthy to go off topic and malign the character of an entire group of people by calling them "racist" simply because they disagree with the current administration's politics and agenda.. I can only say.. Gee... thank you for sharing your OWN perfect display of willful ignorance. At least that is how I see it... others are certainly entitled to disagree. But dear me.. this is hardly the time and/or the place to go THERE so just for the record, I truly would not be interested in a discussion along those lines.. at least not HERE anyway)

when personal responsibility is avoided, evil happens That's it exactly. And BOY, did everyone avoid their responsibility.. at least everyone but little Thymian. What a dear girl with such an abiding goodness. I don't know how she was able to rise above all she went through and (despite all the bad experiences she endured) she kept her integrity in tact. What a MEAN and cruel hand she was dealt by the actions of others.. and yet not a mean nor cruel bone in her body when it was over.. amazing. His death was so useless, and you're right, so unexpected! I wished he had waited one moment, until Thymian came to him - I think she could have helped him, I really do. She had such strength of character, maybe she could have lent him some of hers I'd like to imagine she could have helped him.. but do not know.... I just saw so little proof in him that he was able to overcome his own "playboy" mindset and "grow up" I love how she tells him what she did with the money.. What a selfless and amazing choice for someone in her shoes to make. And she is so HAPPY about her choice (despite the fact that it left her just as destitute and "stuck" in the same old life). Meanwhile HE jumps out the window. Go figure. With that sort of range between them.. For her to be a help to him (in terms of building a stronger character) she'd likely have had to be almost a miracle worker. I like that Thymian really did not let her situation dictate her heart. Instead.. she let her heart dictate how she responded to each situation. That may be what helped her rise above it all and not grow bitter. HE, on the other hand was more concerned about "stuff" and having the creature comforts and plenty of entertainment all around him. It would have been a LOT to lose (when he was disowned by the uncle) and yet instead of learning a lesson and moving forward w/ it.. he just more or less let the whole thing do him in. (or at least cause him to do himself in) What a shame.

Congrats to you, Mr. "In Hollywood" for another really terrific Movie Poster thread. You truly do a remarkable job finding some amazing and captivating pics!! So far my fave has to be today's for The Wild Goose Chase. I don't know a thing about the movie (though judging from the picture, it looks like it could be fun) but really, it is my fave so far just because I just like the way it looks. Also really like those handbills.. way cool. (and love the Hart posters too, by the way) Thanks very much for all the hard work you put into these threads of yours. I don't get a chance to look in everyday, but when I do.. it is always a treat!

Hi there, little missy!!! I thought that the ladies needed a kick in the rear.... the more I think about it, the more I think they WANTED to be deluded - they wanted to pay their money for good works that they didn't have to dirty their hands with, so they could feel good about themselves. You hit it on the head when you say that they needed to figure out WHAT was the best thing for these girls, since they actually had no clue about life They needed a wake up call for sure. I think you are right in that they likely did not want to "sully" their lily white hands to insure that their good works really WERE good. It was more about that whole "oh what a kind and generous soul I have" feeling they got for their efforts. But OH the great tragedy that was the real end result of what they were doing. Charity IS a good thing.. but just blindly giving money out to someone because they spin a good yarn about helping others is a recipe for disaster in some circumstances. There should have been SOME sort of "oversight" to ensure they were getting what they were really paying for. but NO one was concerned enough to even THINK about checking up on anyone else.. pretty much the whole MOVIE was like that come to think of it. In fact, a recurring theme that I just kept seeing over and OVER again in this movie was how a lack of accountability (both for one's own actions.. and also for the actions of others) REALLY was a dangerous thing. Sooner or later all the little chickens running around out there in our daily lives DO come home to roost (if you will pardon the expression) and there is an end result for every choice that is made (either by us.. or for us) in this world. And I noticed that most of the people in this film just went about more or less doing as they saw fit with NO worries at all about how all their little "chickens" all seemed to end up roosting on the shoulders of poor little Thymian. So long as everyone got what they wanted (even the society ladies got SOMETHING if you think of it.. a sense of having done their "duty" to the poor, so to speak) then no one THOUGHT about who was really paying the PRICE for it all. Look at the first best example.. the dad. Not only did HE have no sense of accountabilty for is own actions, but the "family elders" did not keep him accountable for his indiscretions either (The very beginning of the movie shows how he just went from one housekeeper to another until one FINALLY got him on her "hook" so to speak) And then, the pharmacist.. OH my gosh... who was keeping HIM accountable??? (NObody!!!) He was free to do more or less ANYTHING and everything.. and he pretty much did. (UGH, what a slimy guy!!) And OH that poor Count Jr. His uncle (or at least his other family) did NOT try to keep him accountable until it was too LATE for any sort of accountability to help him get his act together. And as a result it made a bad situation worse (for Thymian) and it drove the young count to suicide even. And then of course.. the society ladies had NO sense of accountability.. either TO the young girls they were trying to help.. or FOR the people they were giving their money to (the MONSTERS running the reformatory (who were.. OH my golly.. clearly in their own little "torture chamber world" and loving every minute of it.. until I guess the victims of their torture finally had enough) Good gravy! Most of this film was just one huge "accountability" deserted wasteland! And LOOK at all the damage that happened as a result. Poor Thymian was more or less trampled underneath by EVERYONE else because there was no one keeping anyone in check. Instead, they ALL more or less had a hand in keeping HER... not in check but ENSLAVED to their own irresponsibility. As a result, she was the victim of her father (and his new wife).. the family "elders", the pharmacist, the reformatory workers, the madame, and even the well meaning society women. I would even go so far as to say she was Osdorf Jr''s victim too (in a way) He made her THINK he could help her.. and even TRIED to help her.. but his help was so weak it did little good at all. And when he saw he was taking on more than he could chew (in finding a solution for her) he just gave up, leaving her with no options (or at least very few) More or less, either directly.. or indirectly.. she was made a virtual slave to her circumstances by EACH of these folks who were just going along out there doing whatever they saw fit any way they wanted. And I imagine most of them did not even realize (or if they DID realize they did not care about) the harm they were causing this poor girl. (Well, obviously SOME of them were less "ignorant" of the harm they had caused than others) But truly.. the more "willful evil of the more sinister folks (like the pharmacist, the reformatory workers, etc) was only made possible by the ignorance and lack of care from the people who were supposed to care for her the most. Very tragic indeed. I think with Osdorf, it would have taken more effort than anyone in his family had to give... he would have needed to go back to the beginning, taking time to learn a profession of some kind, and to learn the discipline to stick to it.... a taskmaster, but one with realistic aims and a kind, warm and loving, but firm hand. Someone to guide, not force him to do something. I think you, peacemaker probably could have shaped him up in no time! Ha.. well.. I don't know.. I have such a poor track record with some of the "hard cases" around here,ha.. (You know.. like the "shadowy grey kind) I may lose my Peacemaker license. (perish the thought.. HA!) But maybe I have been too easy on him.. ha. I guess you either have to whip some folks into shape.. or just break out the rope. HA! All kidding aside, I just don't know WHAT the right solution would have or could have been for Osdorf. He really seemed to have NO backbone (or interest) in taking on responsibility much at all. (in fact given the way he more or less ended up for most of the story.. I am suprised he was able to even do what little he DID manage to do for Thymian) It is easy to look at the uncle and say he let his nephew down.. but I don't know. He DID try to help him.. but again.. it was TOO late to try and change someone who had NEVER been taught any better. So in that sense, the real "letting" down for Osdorf Jr happened long before the uncle disowned him. And I do believe some folks CAN learn later in life (if they have the "inner stuff" that makes them WANT to change.. but many folks NEVER learn that lesson. And I guess Osdorff was that sort of guy. And sadly I have some personal experience with this, as I know a couple of people (very well) who have spent most of their lives fleeing responsibility for their own choices and actions..and it is a very sad thing to see indeed. And I have come to learn something very important in my dealings with these two people: No matter HOW much you love someone (and I do love both these people like family.. because they ARE family) Sometimes...if a person does not WANT to change.. all the love and patience and "working with them" in the world will just fall on deaf ears. And I guess that is why I said it CAN be possible to over-love someone. In the wrong hands.. all that love and "encouragement" to try and help them just enables them to continue to dodge their own consequences. And sometimes .. (and UGH. it is an ugly painful thing) the real "loving" thing is to let them go their own way.. And then, whatever happens happens. I think if a person really WANTS to make something of themselves and get out of a bad situation then they deserve a chance to get all the help they can (especially from family and those who love them) But... if a person just keeps hanging on to the same old BAD choices and falling into the same wasted "thrill" seeking behavior and dodging all responsibility in the pursuit of their own personal (so-called) happiness.. then there comes a time (after expending all fair and reasonable attempts to help them) that you have to let them go and let the chips fall where they may. And I do not say this lightly. There are NO easy answers. And I have to also say that "Disown" is an UGLY word. So I don't think I could EVER do that to someone I love. (And I do not understand anyone who could) But I CAN see how it could be possible to let someone you love (who willfully chooses to keep remaining in the same bad behavior) chose their own path, and then, no matter how much it hurts, if tragedy is the end result.. then sadly that will be the end result. Ultimately.. you CANNOT make someone else do something they should do just because you want them to do it. (and believe me when I say.. it IS heartbreaking to go through watching that person fall) but MAYBE (sometimes) when they DO finally fall.. it will be what is needed to finally turn them around. That is the story of the prodigal son. And I LOVE the way that the Father in that story is just literally WAITING (and hoping), looking down the long dusty road for the long lost son to return. (and of course I also love the way he welcomed him back with NO hesitation whatsoever.. no words of "Well, it's about time you learned your lesson, young man" etc) Just love.. and a willingness to forgive on the father's part. And just TRUE and genuine repentence and a willingness to make things right on the part of the son. Now THAT is the dream of every parent who has a child who is "lost" to them.. or at least it should be anyway. (But GOLLY.. having said all that, if they do not come back.. you have to hope they do not one day decide to just throw their papers up in the air with no warning at all and take a header out the nearest open window, though... OH good gravy.. I never saw THAT coming!!) Good golly.. did I mention there are no easy answers???

The Hanging Tree ...is coming to TCM!!! Yippee!!! Nice to see this one "dusted off" to be shown soon. It is a very overlooked gem of a movie. I am glad to see it getting some well deserved attention, for sure!

Hello there Pirate Dude.. thanks for the fun post on Myrna and her horse!! What a lovely senorita she was!! (that would be Myrna.. ha... not the horse!! ha.. though it IS lovely too, I am sure!) I am glad to see you diving in to the westerns, sir. And I like you are finding the "rarer" finds, too.. way cool. ROTRG is not one I have heard of before, but it sounds as it if were a fun one. OH.. and speaking of "El Malo".... PS: Grey Dude!!! (HA!) You (and others) have a nice chat going on w/ The Bravados. Very interesting post, sir.. and the screencaps you chose have really piqued my curiosity even more. This one is on my wanna see list for sure.

Hiya Rey.. thanks for posting these. Way cool. I once (way back in the very late 80's) drove w/ my brother and some friends from Kansas City to Telluride for a Bluegrass festival.. I love that whole area. I wish we could have traveled around a bit and seen even MORE of it than we got to. It was a pretty quick trip so we did not really get to do much more than look as we drove past everything.. but BOY was it gorgeous when we got there. Our trip was over way too soon.. but I have always remembered how nice it was out there in those mountains. Thanks again for posting.

*Diary of LOST SPOILERS*: Oh little darlin'.. my eyes are so blurry from staying up so late last night to finish watching. But I had to see what her ultimate outcome would be.. oh me. thought it was really good, but I wasn't so sure up until the final ten minutes of the movie. I was very surprised at how moved I was by the ending I liked the character (Thymian) more than I liked the movie as a whole. She really was something. And if I had not found her (and her situation) so compelling, I might not have stayed up so late finishing the film. But I truly did hang on simply because I HAD to find out what happened to her. And I was like you.. the ending was pretty emotional. But I felt that (emotional tug) pretty much throughout.. at least for Thymian, anyway. She really was such a poor little "lost thing" and yet VERY strong in spirit all at the same time. And I was surprised (at myself) that I was able to keep my emotions together so well at some of her more tragic moments (considering how MUCH she went through and for so long) but I think the reason I was able to hold it in check for so long was that my anger (at her circumstances and all the poor treatment, abuse, and neglect she received (especially by the ones who should have loved her the most) was so HOT that it outweighed the compassion I felt for her (and that is what kept my tears in check) I don't know if that makes sense.. ha.. but let's just say my "mother hen" came out in me and all I wanted to do was protect her and get her OUT of that mess. But again.. like you said... the ending really got me. Then the tears finally did flow and I had a good long cry after it was all over. But OH boy.. it was close a few times.... when they took that baby.. I almost lost it then for sure. (but again.. I got mad and it overruled my "sad" if only ever so slightly) I liked that the underworld characters seemed a little bit nicer than the upper classes, but then in the end Thymian realized they were not really any better They certainly were "equal opportunity" users and abusers. Almost the entire cast would have to rate among the most vile and lecherous bunch I can ever recall in a story like this. There were a few kind people in among the monsters.. but OH my golly, they were few and far between. And you are right.. it was coming from BOTH sides.. the haves and the have nots.. the upper class and the lower. There were good souls and bad to be found in each. I liked that Thymian did not let her horrible past drag her down.... she was a survivor, and not only a survivor, but a great woman, who gained strength from her troubles I agree.. I like how she overcame it all with her own genuine goodness and her pureness of heart still in tact. She never let them lower her to their level.. even when she WAS (more or less forced to be) at their level, she still managed to keep her spirit above it all. I truly admired her for that. The character that gave me the most confusion was the boy - Count Osdorff junior. I wasn't sure what his deal was... I guess he was just another of those sad, bloodless, overbred spoiled boys who are unable to get it together to help themselves. He was a parasite, but I liked him. He had a good heart. I wasn't epecting his despair and plunge out the window, which I thought was the best directed scene in the whole movie What a tragic guy. I was SO angry at him after they left that reformatory. The way he more or less let her land out of the frying pan into the fire. Oh sure.. he helped her escape.. but he had NO concept of what was needed to even help himself live out in the real world.. so I guess he was lost in terms of having any idea how to help HER as well. And the way he let her fall into the life she ended up with... even helped in the "celebration" of it all.. OH I just wanted to hit him with a big brick.. right upside the head, ha. I kept HOPING he would prove to be a decent guy.. but he really only had just SO much backbone in him and I guess it was all used up just getting her free from the reformatory, I suppose. And when he was at the end of his rope, (figuratively speaking) I thought it was just so (oh for LACK of a better word) "ridiculous" for him to jump so suddenly like that.One minute he is laughing it up making plans for his future.. and the next minute "kersplat"?? That just did not ring very true. But I guess they had to resolve his part in the story SOMEHOW to get her to the next place she would finally end up at herself. Still.. utterly wasted are the only two words I can use to describe his life.. very sad. But wow.. I really liked the uncle. OH my golly. I was not sure how to read HIM at all. Was he a heartless old rich man? (like he MIGHT have proven himself to be w/ his nephew? Or did he just make the wrong choice (in cutting him off and expecting THAT to wake him up?) What IS the right thing to do w/ someone like Osdorff Jr? It is one thing to unconditionally love someone.. but it is also another thing to "over -love" them and enable their bad behavior. So I guess I can see why he cut him off the way he did.. but it was just too late for him to use it as "character builder". There was just SO very little character there to build on. He had been given so much FREEDOM from responsibility for so long.. he was utterly USELESS as a responsible adult. No one ever taught him how to do anything when he was young (except play and have fun) so who could expect him to know how to be able to handle real life when it showed up? It was a sort of sad take on the whole "prodigal son" story.. only this time the "son" (or nephew) was forced to leave (instead of leaving on his own) and he never wised up enough to come back and repent.. very sad. Such a waste. And I loved how the Uncle (out of the regret that he had over his nephew) stepped in to help Thymian in the end. (All with NO questions asked) Talk about an emotional moment. But truly.. she had just been so much.. I spent the first few minutes after that waiting for the other shoe to fall so to speak. I wasn't sure if the uncle could be trusted or not. I was SO glad when he proved to be THE stand up guy he was appearing to be. And wow, I admired him so much as he said his closing line.It truly reinforced the depth of character and the sadness he felt over the loss of his nephew. (and I think also the love he now felt for Thymian as his neice) And I like how he just completely reinforced her statement of only just a moment before as he was walking out. You know they both really NAILED the real need that was so lacking in the whole entire PROCESS those ladies were trying to work under. "Good Works" done in ignorance (of what the need TRULY is).. as Thymian said, and "righteous teaching" and "discipline" applied without love are of little or NO use at all (in terms of how they truly affect those whom you are trying to teach or help) In fact.. more often than not.. they cause far more damage than they prevent in the end of things. Very sad waste of time and effort on the part of what I truly do believe may have been the otherwise well meaning society women. need all the help I can get here with Bowie the kid Ha.. well THAT is a "need" we know all too well. (and I don't think there is a "reformatory" school open anywhere around these parts yet for Shiftless Rambler Shadow Dudes.. but if there WERE.. ha. He could be their first "inmate" ha. So I guess until THAT happens.. I will just have to go put another rope in the freezer (Oh, and maybe I will have to go sharpen my hatpin too! This IS the torture thread, afterall!! ha) Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 8, 2010 7:10 PM

Parts of it did sound rather modern.. but a lot of it was very "traditional" sounding too. It was an interesting score. Very amazing film, too, by the way.

I think I said earlier in the thread that I had decided that Harry was a rat - I mean that almost literally -He lives high off of other people, unconcerned about the garbage he creates, he escapes to the sewers....etc. No wonder that cat likes him And there you have it. THAT is the perfect description of him. ha. No matter how likable a fellow he might have SEEMED to be.. OH what a rat he was (UNDERneath it all) But I had to go on it, it could have been the same cabin that Orson and Joseph Cotten were in! Wouldn't THAT have been something!! Too bad you could not have found a long lost "carving" somewhere where they scratched their names in it. HA!! ("Orson and Joe were here") ha! Now see? It is like M. I am so glad you saw that in it. It has a balloon man too. That shot of Harry's fingers, with nothing but wind on the soundtrack.... wow! Is there another shot so vivid in the movies It is so sad and so pathetic. I was thinking the other night that if you JUST saw the final scenes playing out in that sewer (and did not have the whole rest of the movie to watch first) he would be SO sympathetic it would make it VERY VERY easy to even CHEER for him to get away. It was almost that heartbreaking. Without the proper context (of the whole entire DOT thing, for example) he was literally almost HEARTbreaking with those little leaves rustling around out there along the pavement as he fingers were only grasping at the freedom he would never have again. VERY poignant. But of course. ha... we DO have the context and I imagine you are right.. the "dot" thing was likely the LAST thing on his mind. (except that I wonder if he was MAYBE finally gettting a feel for what it was like for his chickens to come home to roost) I mentioned this the other day.. WHAT a fitting end for someone so low. wonder if Holly wrote better books afterwards? Maybe he quit writing altogether. I can't exactly picture the "after" in this movie. We are left with no future to feel good about. Just dead leaves I don't know. I get a feeling for Holly that he IS going to move forward (even if Anna left him in the dust) I like the almost "lackadaisical" way he is leaning there waiting for her. Even though she has just walked away. It gives me hope for him that he is going to roll with the punches anyway. And I like the idea that he would become a better author as a result of all he just experienced. (I like how he says earlier on that "I'm writing my next book now.. it's called the Third Man" or something like that.. as he is trying to be "subtle" and yet "crystal clear" all at the same time. He definitely DOES grow as a person throughout the story.. which sort of culminates with him taking that gun and walking so purposefully through that tunnel. You made me gasp at the thought that maybe Harry did it! I have always seen it that Harry gave his permission to Holly to shoot him, because he knows Holly will be kind. As much as I LOVE your idea that there is a question about who did the shooting (and you really made me think about it!), I don't think Harry could have killed himself. He loved himself too much and was a weakling, really. He did not want to die. And if Holly didn't shoot him, then Holly would not have really grown up, and he wouldn't have felt the betrayal of his best friend, no matter how reprehensible Harry was I am sure you have it just right. But ha.. I just like to hold onto that "nagging little seed of doubt" sometimes. ha. I guess it is just my imagination working overtime, ha. think I just enjoy wondering "what if". But I do usually lean toward Holly pulling the trigger and I imagine that ultimately it is just as you say.. Deep down, Harry was a coward.. AND you are right.. he loved himself too much Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 8, 2010 4:31 AM

Howdy there, Kid! I am always a big fan of movies with ironic music Ironic! That is the perfect word for it. It just doesn't FIT with the story.. and yet.. It is PERFECT!!! There is something so good natured and energetic about the way Harry betrays every last bit of trust Holly has in him, and the music somehow portrays that - it sounds like the dizzy feeling of falling into bed, just as you are about to wake up from a nightmare That is a great way to say it. (the dizzy feeling) And you are so right about Harry too. That is what makes him (to me) so VERY hideous.. his "good natured" way of being so evil.. very sinister. I love Joseph Cotten too. It's very hard to just play a normal, even foolish, guy. Cotten is perfect, because he just lets stuff happen to him. Whenever he actually tries to act, it turns out all wrong. Every single thing he thinks, the opposite turns out to be true. He's a noble man in an ignoble world, very much a Don Quixote. I never thought of the comparison before , but I think it's a good one I am only "familiar" with the whole Quixote story (but have never read it.. or seen the film) but I imagine you are right on the money. And I like the word "foolish" too, to describe Holly. For all his good natured ways, and the fact that he was such a decent guy.. he was a pretty easy victim (for Harry to take advantage of). Poor Holly. What a bad lot he fell into. It is easy to see where we make bad decsions (to trust or not trust) someone AFTER the fact.. but sometimes it is way to easy to put your faith in the wrong "friend" when you are suddenly thrust in the middle of things like he was. The Third Man is totally a balancing act. Tip the scale too far or too heavily one way, and the whole thing falls apart. The movie is so perfect, I don't want to think of anyone else in the role! That is a good way to describe it. It is almost like a seesaw.. going back and forth, up and down. And if the heavy person gets off too soon.. whammo. You go flipping up in the air. I kept waiting for someone to go flying over head any moment. He's slimy, but the truth is, I STILL like him. And that is what it's all about, isn't it? He had such a 'way" about him it really WAS easy to see how he instilled such loyalty in people. He really was a likeable bad guy that way. His face was just so amiable.. and his manner of speaking was just so "smooth" . He almost "purred" No WONDER the cat loved him so much. He was so "cat like" himself. But OH me.. scratch the surface, ha. A WHOLE other animal underneath. Did I say I've ridden on that ride? I got a chill when I stepped into the compartment. And there were no safety locks or anything, even when I was there. Yikes! Yikes indeed!! ha. You are braver than ME for sure. (I am not much of a carnival person.. but gee... I DO love a good cotton candy so I have to go ONCE in a while just for that. HA!) SPOILER ALERT: The sound is incredible in this movie. Someone else, maybe fredCdobbs? talked about the voices in the different tunnels, when they are hunting for Harry. And the gunshots - the one that always gets me is when Sergeant Paine goes down. He is a wonderful character, so completely nice that, if you hadn't already realized how awful Harry was, that act alone would put the nail in Harry's coffin for the audience. Harry has to go! He shot that nice Sergeant! Oh man.. when the Sergeant went down.. I was M-A-D mad! ha. I really liked him a LOT. (talk about a "decent" guy) But you know.. I have to say... those folowing scenes.. where Harry was at the end of his rope and those little stubby fingers were slipping up through the gates of the manhole cover.. and he is TOTALLY trapped... I have to confess.. as MUCH as I was ready for him to pay the piper.. I DID feel sorry to see him so "alone". I had NO idea I could EVER find any sympathy for him at all like that. but shock of shocks.. I DID. (very much in the same way that I felt sorry for poor Peter Lorre in "M".. though I still find it amazing I could even cal him POOR.. after all the evil he had done.) Dadgum these movies that make me THINK like that... ha. OH WHERE is my easy "white hat" moment at a time like THIS?? ha. But really.. that feeling only lasted a moment for me, because it IS pretty easy to say "HOORAY!" when he goes down.. even though I felt just the tiniest twinge of "sorry" for him. Despite all his "nice" ways, he was a MONSTER and he had to be dealt with.. NO question about it. Maybe that was the difference between Holly and Anna. They BOTH cared about Harry.. they were BOTH loyal to him and they BOTH were on his side even (once they found out he was alive) the difference is that Holly finally came to see the "monster" in him and knew he had to be stopped.. whereas Anna (even if she DID see it) was more forgiving. Even at the end of it all, Holly is still calling out to him to give up.. trying to encourage him NOT to have to end things badly. But BOY, I liked the look on Holly's face when he takes that gun out of the dead Sergeant's hand and starts to walk away. His shoulders are squared and he knows that only ONE of them is going to get out of that tunnel alive. (at least that is the way it seemed to me) And I liked that you don't SEE the final shooting. I MAY be making too much of this, (and have just missed something obvious) but when Holly walks out of the shadows, I always catch myself wondering (if only for a moment) "WHO fired the shot?" The look on both men's faces SEEMS to indicate that it was Holly. And that is the way I usually lean.. and yet I still wonder. I MAY need to go back and watch again. It COULD be that I am just missing something or imagining scenarios that aren't there... But that part of the movie ALWAYS sets me to thinking: COULD Harry have "offed"himself?? Because to me.. just a little bit (and without words and using ONLY the expressions on their faces) it could almost go either way. It looked at different times like BOTH men COULD be giving each other permission. (or it seems that way to me) But I still lean more toward Holly pulling the trigger in the end. But (and I confess, ha.. it may just be my imagination is working overtime) I truly do see a scenario where it COULD have played out the other way (with Harry killing himself) There is just enough of a question mark there for me to never be quite sure... and that always bugs me because.. ha... you know me.. as I like to say.. "Inquiring minds wanna know".

OH Jackie.. your post made me remember that this was one of the youtubes I had been waiting to watch (sometime.. always sometime.. ha) Anyway.. at leastI have it started now and have made it past the 4th part. OH my goodness.. what an emotional story.. and somehow I think I am just getting started.... (I am hoping I can finish up tonight.. but don't know if I will make it or not. At any rate.. I have GOT to watch the rest of it now.. it really has me hooked.)

Miss Maven says: Hey, I watched a Western Monsieur Laffite replies: So did I?and so I have been?of late And John T wonders: Meanwhile, Rohanaka exclaims: WOO HOO!!!! I love seeing you folks over here on the western side of town!!! (and PS: I only WISH I had seen the Bravados.. I have been enjoying reading about it though) Thanks everybody for giving me yet ANOTHER movie to look forward to watching sometime. As for the other films mentioned.. I l-o-v-e LOVE Rio Bravo.. not my MOST fave Duke western.. but one of my most faves for sure. (and likely tied w/ Only Angels Have Wings for my most fave Hawks film.. MAYBE) Anyway.. Mr Pirate.. feel free to chime in on that one anytime. I remember the chat we had on it.. it was a fun ramble for sure.. but I agree w/ the other folks.. new thoughts are always welcome. Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 7, 2010 4:25 PM

No need to walk the plank on this one, sir.. HA! But I hope you DO get a chance to watch it sometime soon. It is a terrific film. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it!! (and PS: if I had to admit all the films I have never seen.. oh golly.. the outrage!! ha. (I would be drummed out of the "so you call yourself a classic movie watcher" club for SURE) HA!

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLO MS Favell.... or should I say.. " Hello, my little Oklahoma Kid!!" (ha. I have called you that nickname before, but that was the first time I recognized the title of the book they kept showing in this movie as they were talking about him being an author, ha! When I saw it, i IMMEDIATELY thought of YOU! ha) Too funny.. Excuse me while I blow a little bit of dust of this thread of yours, if I may. I recently got the chance to re-watch The Third Man. I had seen it back about a year or so ago, but have never really gotten the chance to chat on it. .and so now AFTER getting to see it again.. I just want to say.. WOO HOO, what a movie! I want to go back and re-read this thread (sometime) but in the meantime.. if I may... I have some "blabbish" thoughts that have been rolling around on the tip of my tongue just dying to get out, ha. (or should I say.. on the tips of my fingers.. ha) First of all.. before I go too far.. I want to mention that I absolutely L-O-V-E love the music in this film. And I have to start out talking about it simply because it is SUCH a strange and yet completely PERFECT choice of music, played all throughout the story. Jaunty.. and a bit "off kilter" with the dark and menacing themes of the story.. but then.. the whole MOVIE has that sort of feel to it as well. It is almost "topsy turvey" with the way it is filmed at so many odd sorts of angles. It leaves me with a decidedly " whole world gone askew" feeling. (And I am sure this is intentional as that is LIKELY how Holly felt as he made his way from moment to moment throughout the entire story) Now from here on out, I will be mentioning some things about the plot as I go along with my "blabbing" so reader beware... *Possible SERIOUS SPOILAGE ahead* Wowsa.. this is one of my all time fave rolls for Joseph Cotten. He really is something in this film. He is more or less just a decent guy.. caught up in stuff he NEVER dreamed would happen to someone like him. Very unsuspecting (of the mess he has walked into and been made a part of) VERY determined to get to the bottom of things (once he believes there is more to the story than he is being told) and VERY VERY committed to finding the truth (and then EVENTUALLY commited to STOPPING Orson Welles) once the truth comes out. Ok.. so maybe he needed a "nudge" now and then from the British.. ha. but he DID make up his mind.. eventually. And alll the while he is looking out for the poor girl (Anna) caught in the middle of it all. What a great character and what a terrific role for Cotten. I had heard (from one of the commentaries on the film) that somewhere along the line James Stewart was considered for the role of Holly.. I can see that as a good choice.. but WOW... as MUCH as I like Stewart (and I DO like him a lot) I think this HAS to just be Cotten's role. He did a stand out job. And THEN.. there is Orson Welles... OH MY GOLLY! If this film is among my faves for Cotten.. I think I would have to rate it my MOST fave for Welles. GOOD gravy does he ever just "sink" into the character. He doesn't even really appear in the story at all (except the shadows perhaps) until LONG after the movie has started and really only has just a very few "moments" on screen. But BOY oh boy, he makes VERY good use of them. UGH.. that Harry Lime. WHAT a low-life, down right MONSTROUS dirtbag!! Bone chilling. EVIL to the core. Talk about pathological.. That "boyish" face with the "Cheshire Cat" smile.. OH my gosh.. bone chilling doesn't even begin to describe it. His shining moment of course is the conversation he has with Cotten's character (Holly) on that carnival ride ((and I LOVE how Holly grabs ahold of the post the minute he finds out that his former friend MIGHT be ready to do more than talk) And then when Lime writes Anna's name on the window.. and taps the window to draw Holly's attention to it.. YIKES!!. Did I mention he was bone chilling?? (and yet SEEMINGLY harmless all at the same time) And he had NO concern for ANYONE but himself. And NO concern for the evil he was doing to the most innocent of victims. The little speech he gives on the carnival ride (about the "dots" that ends with the whole 'cuckoo clock" thing) GOOD GOLLY what a menace... I just wanted to jump through the TV screen and push HIM out of that ride myself!! And boy... it REALLY made me think of something far too close to home. We had a HUGE trial several years ago in the KC area with a pharmacist who was selling BAD chemo drugs ( he watering them down to make more money off of them) Several of the patients who bought the medicine from him died (and might not have if they had received the proper dosage, etc) so it was a REALLY big trial around here. In the end he was convicted and sentenced for his crimes.. and I hope he has a GOOD long time to think about (and pay for) what he did. But I have to say.. I just don't know of an earthly punishment BAD enough for someone who would get rich off of the pain and suffering and utter MISERY of some other innocent person like that. (but GEE.. getting chased through the sewers of Vienna and dying like a dog in the gutters WOULD be a pretty fitting end... so I guess THIS movie had a bit of "justice" to it that the folks here in KC might only dream about). Ok.. I know.. that SOUNDS bloodthirsty. I don't REALLY wish that for the guy here in KC.. but I have to say.. I was VERY happy to see old Lime go down.. (or at least HEAR it when it happened anyway) Wow.. what a powerful moment when that gun echoes all through those tunnels... and then along walks Holly out of the shadows into the opening. The whole movie COULD have ended there and would have been completely satisfying. But then again.. I LOVED the ending. I really liked the way it ends almost exactly how it starts.. with Liime's funeral. And the same 3 characters leaving the way they do. Poor Anna... I KEPT hoping and hoping she would turn around and we'd see her back as she was walking back toward Holly at the end.. but we never get to see that. I guess for Anna the hurt ran far too deep. What a sad thing for her, because GEE, that Holly.. did I mention what a DECENT guy he was. There is way more I wish I had time to say.. but will have to stop for now. Thanks for letting me blab a moment, Little Miss "OK Kid" (ha) :-) Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 6, 2010 2:52 PM Edited by: rohanaka on Nov 6, 2010 3:28 PM

Oh Ms Favell.. you have raised the bar yet again, little darlin'. (In fact my hat is off to you and the Grey Dude and the Pirate too) I only WISH I had time to stop and reply to your posts (and the screencaps you chose) point by point because you have made some TRULY fascinating and very thought provoking observations For now, I just have to say well done and give you a "pat on the back" sort of post instead.. at a gal.. way to go.. YOUR THE TOPS!! (ha.. I COULD go on and on.. but I am running out of time) It's always a "feast for the eyes" with you bringing so much to the table, little darlin'.

Oh my gosh, my golly... I see I have a GIANT bit of catching up to do around here...

What's the word, Quiet Gal SCIENCE!!! ha. Make that SUPER Science.. .no.. make it SUPER SCIENCE SATURDAY!! ha. OH my golly... am I ever ZONKED!! I have just spent the last several days getting thing prepared for an ALL day (early this am until after dark) "day camp" event with the scout troop kids.. OH me, oh my.. Science "rocks" ha. (the badge work I led for this was "Geology" ha.. so I have to say that.. ha) Anyway.. it was a LOT of fun..and a HUGE success.. (thankfully) but boy oh boy.. I see I have fallen woefully behind here. Wowsa.. I am loving the chat I am seeing on TLBN. I want to go back to re-read some of the stuff you folks have been bringing up (when I am not nearly so "bleary eyed"... but wanted to say that I think it is really fun that this film has generated such good "chat" (Ms Favell.. I am really glad you got to see this one) I will get back w/ you all soon.. but ha.. well.. it may still be a day or two.. tomorrow is going to be another busy one.. (Gee.. I USED to know what sleep was.. but I am so tired now.. I think I have forgotten, ha) think Quiet Gal would absolutely love On Dangerous Ground. I think she'd really go for the entire story, the characters, the look, the music, the emotion. The film pretty much has it all That is one I am really looking forward to (after reading your comments here. Thanks to a couple of friends, I have been able to come by a copy of it.. so it USED to be on my "Wanna See list" and NOW it is on my "Hopefully SOON to see" instead. I will report back in when I get a chance to let you know. (I still have a couple of others I need to get to first though.. so it might be a week or so) Did I mention I was falling "woefully" behind?? Ha. (Oh golly.. if I don't get w/ the program soon. I am going to have to go on the lamb.. ha. The Grey Dude will start calling ME "shiftless" for SURE, ha) Edited by: rohanaka on Oct 30, 2010 10:45 PM

Well, look who finally stepped out of the shadows!! Good evening, Kloser HA!! I wonder how her signature phrase ("Thank YEW, Lieutenant") would come off sounding in German.. ha. ("Danke schoen, herr lieutenant" just doesn't have quite the same ring to it w/ a heavy southern Georgia accent, ha.) What a wonderful surprise! I didn't expect you to watch M, but I'm thrilled that you did It was on my "wanna see" list for a very long time.. but I never came across it until the other day. (sometimes I completely forget to check youtube.. duh) So I sort of found it by accident.. and I am glad to have gotten a chance to see it. Does this mean I'm going to get hanged All in good time, my pretty... ha. The brilliance of the film is the collision of emotions and thoughts. Can the two work together? The film makes us do both. "How do you feel? What do you think? Are they independent of one another? Must they be? Some movies are not MEANT to be thought provoking and just are there to entertain.. and some films do both.. enterain AND make you think. But THIS film.. really.. not at all what I would think of as "entertainment" but VERY very thought provoking. I think it would be very hard for most people to just "watch" this movie and "space out".. so to speak. It would (and I submit SHOULD) be hard to see it without giving it a LOT of thought (both while it is playing.. and then for some time after it is over) I'd like to at least imagine that the average person would have a hard time just "walking away" saying.. "ok.. seen it" and then moving on. Many times, a community will band together to rid itself of a "monster Well.. not all "communities" or "monsters" are created equal.. but I am glad that at least the "community" in THIS "monster" movie was successful... finally. But I like that they were stopped from "lynching" him. I think (no matter who does the "catching" those sorts of things are best handled by the ones in authority. Otherwise, we'd end up w/ a whole lot more "Ox-bow Incident" chats... I like how you brought up the point about how there is a danger to "neighborhood" watches. There ARE ways to do that more effectively that are more about "protecting" and "prevention" than about catching a criminal. But I am sure they were also just so focused on trying to find him and stop him, so it was hard to seperate the two ideas at the time. I think the BEST way to handle a "neighborhood watch" effort is for them to do just that.. watch and report.. And then it is time for the authorities to act (in terms of prosecuting the offenders) At least. .that is the way it SHOULD work. But it does not always happen that way. Sometimes it IS up to the citizens to step in and "take care of business". But it is a very dangerous idea unless it is handled with care. It is not hard to understand WHY those neighbors began to turn on (and turn in) each other. NOTHING is so horrifying as the thought that the very people you are living in and around MIGHT just be the ones who are out there stalking you and yours.. And again.. it was all about protecting the kids.. so all bets are off when it comes to letting cooler heads prevail with that, sometimes. (But as your screencaps showed... mob rule is a dangerous thing too.. so gee.. we are right back with that whole "there are no easy answers thing, arent' we?) love the usage of silence. I'm glad you brought that up. Is there a better "sound" for tension? We are not being manipulated my music, told how to feel. We are being told to pay attention It was a very "attention getting" method, to be sure. Wow! If Lang did that, that would be absolutely brilliant. I didn't catch that. I'll have to watch it again, myself. I still need to go back and re-watch it again myself. It COULD likely have all just been the music playing over and over again in my head and a whole lot of "imagination" ha. But BOY it sure seemed like it sounded that way to me at the time. Now that surprised me. I was expecting you to be tougher on Beckert (Peter Lorre). No mercy Oh, don't misunderstand. My "sympathy" for him only goes SO far. I have a way of seeing things sometimes that may sound like I am trying to have it both ways.. but truly I am not. I feel there are times when a person DOES deserve (and should receive) death as the just punishment for their crime but that does not mean I have to "celebrate" it. Ok. I confess.. sometimes I do.. because it IS hard not to... it goes back to what April was saying.. sometimes I DO clap when the Duke lets the bad guy have it.. blammo!! (And I know that if I had been there, I likely would have been dancing right along w/ the Mexican peasants out in the street when Liberty Valance went down) I guess that is one area where movies can let me enjoy something that I might not otherwise do. ha. Because TRULY.. in the "real world" I STILL feel a level of sadness at the thought of someone paying the ultimate price for their crime. (no matter how richly they deserve it) To use as the example.. one of the most heinous crimes of our modern times.. on 9/11. I was VERY glad that the men who committed those acts died too.. and I know that there is not a hell hot enough for them to pay for what they did throughout eternity.. but I still tremble at the thought of the "judgement" they must have received. And it is because I DO believe in not only earthly justice.. but justice in the hereafter as well.. that I know they have not yet even BEGUN to pay for what they have done. And it gives me pause to think of just how tragic that will be for them throughout eternity. Talk about "sobering". So despite the fact that I firmly believe they deserve whatever punishment they get.. and despite the fact that I am glad they are gone.. I am not REALLY a "grave dancer" in that respect. It is NOTHING to celebrate when someone is made to die for their crimes. (and yet..ha.. I still know that I every time I watch TMWSLV, I will end up singing the happy little "la la la la la" song along w/ the mexicans in the street. ha. GEE... I really AM trying to have it both ways, aint I??? ha) This is true. If he knew he was a menace, he could become a hero by "capturing" himself. But it rarely ever works that way Sad but true. It's the inability to control seriously dark urges. Thankfully, this is seen in a very small minority. But, still, why does it exist? How does it come to be? The easy way to explain anything is to say, "they are evil." That's the easy way out. The difficult part is finding out why they are evil. Why is it that one person can cope with things but another cannot? It is not something that can just be "explained" by the phrase "evil" At least not in my way of looking at it. I think of "evil" as a process sometimes. And I am speaking in a very "general" sense here.. not just about Lorre's character and his crimes, but more about "evil" in general. It starts with an "idea" that is allowed to grow.. and it becomes a "thought" and eventually a " desire" and before you know it.. it has consumed your heart and your mind.. and becomes an outward act. Sometimes it is a "slow" process.. other times it happens almost all at once. But some folks are definitley carried away by their "sin" (oh no.. here we go again. ha.. I PROMISE this is not a Sunday School lesson, ha) And the more we give ourselves over to wrong doing... the harder we become until we no longer CARE if what we are doing is right or wrong anymore.. so long as we get what we want (or THINK we have to have) And again.. sometimes this is a LONG process.. other times... it happens in the blink of an eye. I'm innocent! Ha.. that'll be the day! Look at my white hat! Yeah, but just putting tapshoes on a horse does not make him Fred Astaire. HA. ANYONE can wear a white hat, Sherrif Layne, but not everyone can BE one, ha. think the toughest part of the death penalty is, can a person personally pull the trigger? It's much easier when someone else does it for you. But can you do it? If your answer is "yes," then you know you're for the death penalty I don't know if I totally agree. I think it is not so easy to say "if" you can pull the trigger.. you must be for the death penalty. I think it is a more complex issue. I don't think of death as "vengence" when it comes to a legal punishment for certain crimes against societly. I see it as a "just consequence" for a choice that someone made to cause willful harm to another person. Consequence is a natural order of life. Things happen.. that cause other things to follow... and when someone is found guilty of a crime.. they can expect a penalty for that crime. And to be very honest.. sometimes I think death is TOO GOOD a punishment for certain people. I wonder if it would have been even MORE horrible type of a punishment to let Lorre's character LIVE.. in a tiny cell with NO outside contact to the world.. and only the photos of his victims plastered on the walls to keep him company. That to me would be more "vendictive" and "vengeful" than a death sentence. But I admit others may not agree. Yes, very sobering. We do bear responsibility for our children, but it's impossible to be everywhere. We must rely on others to help us out. That's part of the "we I don't know. I have never been much of a "village" person (as in "it takes a village, etc) Though I do still hold to the "neighborhood" watch idea.. of parents joining forces and being mindful of the kids in their area.. and working together to make sure they are safe. Because I DO buy into that whole "no man is an "island" thing and at the end of the day.. I understand that we really ARE all in this together. So I can agree up to a point a point that part of the "we" is everyone working together. But truly.. for me.. there ultimate "we" is me and my husband. There is no one (from an earthy perspective) who bears a great responsibility for caring for my child than her daddy and I do. Because ULTIMATELY.. I belive it is a parent who is given this job by God.. and we are accountable to him for the way we care for our kids. Do I think I will ALWAYS be able to watch her ALL of the time everywhere she goes.. no. EVERYDAY as she grows up, I am finding that out, more and more. So because I know I can't be with her 24 hours a day (like I used to be) I am very choosy in the situations I allow her to be in and I am very careful who she is with (when I cannot be there myself) And I am very mindful of what sorts of situations I allow her to become invovled in apart from my supervsion. As she grows and matures.. I let her have more and more opportunities to make good choices.. but I do not just automatically assume that because I have taught her to choose well that she will. And more importantly, I also know (as I mentioned before) sometimes no matter HOW well we try to protect our kids.. evil will come looking for them. So I am very careful about how MUCH I let her do on her own. Right now.. it is not so hard because she IS only 7 and so she is too young to want to go TOO many place on her own. But as she grows up.. I know this will be a changing thing.. and over time she will be allowed (and should be allowed) to take on more decision making in her life. But for now.. her choices (about where she goes and what she does) are going to be MY choices. And I know that sounds like some sort of "hovering mothering" technique... and it may well be. But I that is a choice we have made in our family and this is where we have drawn the line. And yes.. I understand that as she gets older.. and older.. the apron strings DO have to be let out. So (ugh.. no matter how MUCH I hate it) every year.. they get a little longer. But BOY oh boy.. it is a "sobering" (there's that word again) thing trying to decide how MUCH string to give her. And in the ugly reality we live in these days, I take it very seriously.. because at least for now, (while she is still so young especially) a little string goes a long, long way.

Thanks for the info on Ray, Mr. ChiO, sir. I appreciate the listing you gave of some of the titles for him. I am only familiar with just a couple of them so I will have to look up the rest and see about giving some of them a try. I am finding that the longer I hang out here, the more I learn... and I am having a lot of fun finding new (old) films (not to mention directors and actors too) to enjoy along the way. Thanks again.

helloooo, there, queen of the CSI Ha ha.. oh yeah.. that's me. (You know ever since the 70's and Starsky and Hutch I have always had this secret desire to go into law enforcement.) HA! i just want to say i really loved your passionate post about the kids and how we all need to watch out for them Thank you. I appreciate you loaning me a space here in your thread to set up my soapbox for a while, ha. I know I do tend to rant sometimes.. but that subject (the need for parents to care more for their kids above all other things) has always been an issue that is REALLY at the top of my list of things that can really get me "blabbing". I will try to "temper" my temper while here, though, ha. and it's pretty cool that a movie that old can still be so relevant I completely agree. I am finding that in a lot of the films I have been watching lately. I hesitate to bring up a "Bible' verse in your thread (after the Grey Guy and I had our "moment' over in westerns.. HA!) But the part in Ecclesiastes where it says something about how there is "nothing new under the sun" really rings true. Sometimes (for better or worse) the more things change (in terms of our society and all the many problems we may face in the world) the more they stay the same. have never seen any of these shows, so i take your word for it. i have seen enough clips or commericals for them to get a feel for how they are presented and i would even throw in an older TV series for comparison Some of them are better than others.. and not all "crime shows" are created equal for sure. I tend to lean more on programs that really focus on the investigative process and how they come to catch the bad guy (instead of the bang bang shoot em up stuff".. ha. I have come a long way since Starsky and Hutch, I guess. HA!) Truely.. some of my more favorite shows are not the dramas.. I like The First 48 on A & E a lot.. it is real detectives doing real detective work. (and they do a pretty good job of respecting the victims and their families by "blotting" out a lot of the more "gruesome" crime scene evidence. It is a very intriguing show. But again, The Closer is TOPS for me right now in "drama". I absolutely LOVE my Deputy Cheif Brenda Leigh Johnson.. ha. (or as I like to call her.. the "mouth from the South" ha) Hill Street Blues. I mention it because my mom was a huge fan of the show and I remember that some of the officers did an awful lot of undercover work where they had to enlist the cooperation of the "underworld" and criminal types in order to catch a BIGGER crook/murderer. I did not know that they used those sorts of techniques on that show. That is a program I think I have only seen maybe just a handful of times.. and that was when it was on way back in the 80's. (that was back during my "retail management" days and I MISSED a lot of night time prime time TV. It must have shown on a night when I normally worked til closing.. but I can't say for sure ( Since I was the manager I made my own schedule and for whatever reason I usually chose to work Tues and Thurs as my days that I worked until closing.. and then also either Friday night or Saturday night.. depending on if I worked Sunday) The rest of the week I more or less worked daytime hours. UGH.. I do not miss that retail schedule for sure. (talk about BLECH!!) But thankfully.. that is all just a memory now.... those guys (the detectives) certainly needed some real psychological, or understanding of human nature as much as the more technical skills when ferreting out the truth. One good "psych out" can save hours of time in more straightforward detective methods Funny how once he thought his goose was cooked.. his mouth just opened right up, ha. He couldn't blab it all to them fast enough. (and you are right.. the look on that inspector's face.. ha He NEVER expected THAT to be what they were up to, did he? would also like to hear more about what tracey brought up...about the background on the relevancy of the film to what was going on in Germany. FrankGrimes might have something to add there. Where IS that Grey Guy hiding lately.. because I though he would chime in on that too.. but I am glad some folks are bringing in some interesting facts. I never knew any of that stuff.. but in truth.. I know next to nothing about Lang in general.. so this is all interesting to me. RE: Fury... Oh boy, it's tough for me to watch, just for that ONE scene...and the build up toward it. I really CANNOT watch it too often. It gets to me like few movie scenes ever do I DO remember it being very intense like that. (and the "ONE" scene you are referring to.. GASP!! Intense does not even begin to cover it. I need to rewatch it again to refresh my memory.. but as I recall.. let me just reiterate...ha.. GASP! Edited by: rohanaka on Oct 24, 2010 11:30 PM

They Live by SPOILAGE: (ha) that someone so young and who'd basically spent most of his "adult" years in jail should even have ANY sense of loyalty (even to fellow cons) is remarkable in itself I imagine (and this is a TOTAL "presumption" on my part) it must have been a VERY scary world to be cast into and he was happy to have made some "bigger and stronger" friends. But again.. with friends like that... he might have done better to have just taken his chances. I do think "T-Dub" (I think that was his name) was a bit less "mean spirited" than deSilva's character. He seemed to understand (and maybe even sympathize a bit) when he told them he was not going to be working with them anymore. But still.. he let his own selfish plans take precedent over anything else, so his "sympathy" only went so far. look how we all went back and forth over "dixon steele" and "laurel grey Well now see.. I did not even know that it was the same guy making both movies. (DUH!) :-) really have only just started noticing his name, I guess. I need to look at his "filmography" and find out how many of his films I actually have seen. you are right...they could have tried to just use every expedient to make their life easier...to keep on robbing to live better, flashier, but they resisted this and kept quiet and to themselves, just trying to live like a normal, young couple starting out The QT started watching this with me (but fell asleep before it was over) Anyway.. when it first came on, he had never heard about it before and when I told him what little I knew about it (from what had been said here) he asked, "Oh boy.. this isn't going to be a low-budget "Bonnie and Clyde" is it?) ha. (I hate that movie by the way, ha. So I am GLAD he was wrong about THAT!!) But you know.. it COULD have gone that way. (sort of along the lines of Gun Crazy even) if those two had been more in "LOVE" with the lifestyle and mindsets they had been raised in (rather than repelled by them) I really like that this time.. they were NOT looking for the "high life" but just wanted to find whatever happiness they could. That was a nice "twist" for a "cops and robbers" type story. i tell you i had to look away whenever Ray gave him a close up. and it's not because of his affliction, but because of his inner venality and meanness that just made him so repulsive. I gotta confess.. ha.. it was BOTH for me. UGH.. he was definitely one guy whose "INNER" ugly was just as apparent on the outside as well. He was loud and TOTALLY "mocking" in his attitude toward anything that might be "good" or "pleasant". Talk about a hate-filled, hateful, totally UNsympathetic guy... You said it earlier.. "gaaaack!" is the right word, ha. thought another interesting character was the woman who owned the motor court, the one who's husband the 'gang' were trying to spring. she represented what the girl could become if she wasn't made of better stuff. talk about bitter I did not have much sympathy for her.. until right up to the end when you could TELL her conscience really DID work afterall. At first I found her to be truly just a mean and (as you say) bitter woman. But as she really began to contemplate on the trade she was making.. her husband's life.. for someone else's husband, I think it finally "sunk" in and she hated herself for it. But not enough to change her mind.. not enough. OH boy did I keep hoping and hoping she'd call him back into that room with her as he was leaving... sniff.. (Oh WHERE is Frank Grimes with my box of KLEENEX already??)

i give them so much credit for trying to be happy and get a piece of the "normal" life so many take for granted, and did so without any desire to hurt anyone else. When he pushed that jewlery store clerk out of the way (for his own good) that told me EVERYTHING I needed to know about his real character. He did NOT have any interest in getting ahead by hurting others (as his cohorts clearly did) I think he was just trapped in a really "impossible" situation. I like how he REALLY tried to get out too.. but still had a level of "compassion" for the men who at one time must have been the only "friends" he had.. though admitttedly they WERE some pretty lousy friends to be stuck with. nicholas ray really goes for the heart and guts in his movies I really don't know anything about him as a director.. but I have to say THIS story was all of that. "Heart and Guts" are right It was as the Grey Guy says.. very "emotional" And the two characters were filled w/ "heart and guts" too.. They had REAL "hearts" that truly did want to do good and find a way to just be happy and love one another without as you say.. huriting anyone.. but it took a LOT of "guts" for them to live the life they were dealt.. It had to be a hard way to grow up.. and in many ways they only JUST were really starting to find out what REAL happiness was all about. They really did have a lot of inner strength that only just was starting to work for them when things went bad.. I say again.. very tragic. that howard da silva character....gaaaack! he gives me nightmares OH my gosh my golly.. what a bad, bad, BAD man.. and TOTALLY creepy.. inside and out. (ugh)