rohanaka

Hiya Mad Hat!! :-) Thanks for the feedback on my post.. you know me... ha.. I just like to blab, blab, blab. ha. It is very "GREY" in that the characters all seem to have (at least) that one moment where we gain some sympathetic insight that allows us to say "yes, but.." every time they behave or act badly or out of spite True.. all true. I still wanted to knock them around a bit, though. ha. (but I mean that in a very "I'm only doing this for your own good" sort of way.. much like I have to wield my ROPE from time to time.. ha) It was clear, very shortly on, with Hindley's behavior that the message hadn't gotten through That's the whole problem as far as I could see. I mean.. it is ONE thing to tell a kid to do something.. but it is a WHOLE other thing to expect a kid to do something... (and then reinforce the expectation if they do not follow through) He just did not seem to be much of an "enforcer". By simply living at Wuthering Heights and existing in her world, Heathcliff is haunting her, tormenting her. I guess you could say he haunted her in life.. so she haunted HIM in death. ha. Now hurry up and read the book Thanks for the "kick in the pants" ha. I NEEDED that. I have not been able to get to the library (other than to return my movies) yet. I will MAYBE have some time later this week to stop by there and see if they have a copy of it. (SURELY they will) Anyway.. I do hope to get to it SOMEtime this fall.. (it's nice to have a goal, ha) :-)

Wowsa... now that's quite a line up. I have seen some of them... but several I have not. (will have to see if I can take a look at the ones I have not seen to find out more.. ) woo hoo.... sounds like a "busy" movie watching night for the Western folk for sure!

Dadgum... WHY oh why can't we ever get a "Noir" festival.. or any OTHER cool sort of classic film festival out HERE (you know.... in the great midwestern uncivilized wilderness) ha. Color ME green with envy Mr. Movieman.. enjoy yourself, sir! Meanwhile... PS: my "Noir Walk" pals.. I watched The Prowler this evening.. OH wow.. talk about "dadgum" ha... OH that VAN HEFLIN!!! What a piece of work HE was.

it has two villains, and two Ronald Colmans! Woo hoo!! ha. Well now I KNOW I will have to check it out!! Thanks for the tip!!

Oh golly, Jackie.. I am FAIRLY drooling over those BEAUTIFUL screencaps, little gal. So far I have had NO luck finding a copy of this movie.. drat. Between missing this one (AND Shepherd of the Hills too) I am having a severe case of "backwoodsy mountain folk, hill-ishbilly" WITHDRAWL for sure. ha.) Maybe someday I will be able to catch up w/ you folks on either (or both) of these movies. In the meantime.. THANKS for the fun read (and for lovely caps to look at too)

Howdy there Ms Favell! I agree completely about Linton - even if I was a bit harsh on him for his position. David Niven is marvelous in the role, perfect in fact. He is another reason I love this movie so much....He was able to dig a little deeper and play that bloodless, slightly corrupted British upper class gentleman who has only an inkling of what is really going on I agree. I was really surprised how MUCH he stood out for me when I watched it all again this time. I love the line where he tells her that he is not afraid for her to smile at Heathcliff because now when she smiles at him it would be as his wife... sigh.. poor guy. ha. It was spoken with such love.. but alas.. he did NOT really know what he was saying, did he? It's great that Niven got the chance at such a great role - I would hate for him to have gone on playing Fritz in Prisoner of Zenda all his life Ha.. I have never SEEN Prisoner of Zenda.. I need to check that out As it is, he ended up playing variations on this deeper role all his life He did seem to have a knack for that proper Endlish gentleman, didn't he. PS: Miss G: The book is not that long, so maybe you will be able to read through it one day and find out. It is on my library list.. but not sure when I am going to make it back up there again.. I have a lot going on lately. And THEN when (oh when) am I going to find time to read it..ha. (maybe will have to make it a "lunch break" kinda thing, ha. I have read a LOT of books that way.. it takes longer.. but at least they DO eventually get read :-) ) the story seems to contrasting natural impulse...and love...with the calculated contrivances (and temptations to self-indulgence) of the world They don't usually mix well, do they? It make for a very tragic tale when they do. Emily Bronte loved the wild, isolated moors where she was raised and always resisted the new or the worldly. I think she feared its snares.The "natural man" seemed to her closer to purity and to nobility than the bloodless aristocrat.Her real skilll seems to be in creating a complex character like Cathy, who is torn between the two Thanks for the info on Bronte.. I know next to nothing about her. (and you are right about her "strong suit" on creating complex "torn" characters. (at least from what I can tell) I love your insight into the literary styles and the personality of the authors.. You have helped me better understand a lot of stories (that were movies) that way. You are a pretty well read kid. I think I would have to take a LOT of lunch breaks to catch up with you. ha. PS: Miss B!! I am with Miss G.. hope you will get a chance to chime in soon on WH!! (oh.. and golly.. I can only IMAGINE what mom would say about it all!! ha) Edited by: rohanaka on Sep 17, 2010 12:09 PM

She hated John Dixon. OH who didn't???????????????? ha OH... and that LOUSY James Stenbeck TOO! ha. Why any women would EVER marry EITHER of those guys was ALWAYS beyond me.. ha. Golly guys.. I have not seen this show more than a handful of times since I was a kid.. (especially not in the last 20 years or so, I think) but BOY do I remember it growing up. Gee, our grandma's and mom's must have all been watcing at the same time!! ha. (I have VERY similar memories of all the characters you are mentioning!) Sorry to hear it is going out. Hope it ends well for everyone. (except maybe those lousy Dixon and Stenbeck guys.. ha But who knows.. since I haven't seen it in a while.. ha.... maybe they have turned over a new leaf by now and I am just being too harsh on them. Nah... surely not... where would be the fun in THAT? HA!)

Hello my rambling friends!!!!! It has taken me a bit longer than I intended but I have finally gotten a chance to re-watch Wuthering Heights again. (at last!) Wow. There is a LOT to sort through and I know there is no way I will be able to answer back to all the points that have been raised in this ramble. Though I did go back and try to read through most of it all, I am going to focus more on the recent ones (in part because of Mr. Grey?s BIG turn around on the movie, and also in part to keep this from being perhaps one of the longest posts ever in recorded history. HA) First I have to tell you something that struck me as funny this morning when I was thinking over the whole story and all the characters.. ha. THIS movie could have been called PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, ha. because there sure were a WHOLE lot of "prideful" and "prejudiced" people running around all over it. ha. (but maybe it was just the "era" for that sort of thing, ha.) And then next I have to say that I still have ?comparison? issues between this version of the story and the 1992 film. I REALLY did not realize how different they are (in terms of even the story and some of the characters) and I have NO idea how the two films compare to Miss Bronte?s book (never having read it myself) but there are some major differences (among other things, in the newer version Cathy and Edgar have a daughter, also named Cathy and Hindly (if I remember right) has a son and at the end of the film, they sort of form a relationship, etc) Also Heathcliff and Isabella have a son (who dies) and I think Isabella dies too (but I am not sure about that one) ANYWAY, all of those details aside, the most NOTABLE differences between the two versions of the story are Heathcliff and Cathy characters. I said this before, but will risk repeating. The newer film is MUCH darker and far more ?grim? (especially Heathcliff) or at least that is how it seemed to me. And in some respects, to be truthful I LIKED the darker ?spin? on things because it made it VERY easy for me to be TOTALLY disgusted with both him and her (more or less) so I have carried my prejudice against them in my heart despite the fact that I liked the story a LOT. And Heathcliff and Cathy seem more ?brash and passionate? (and MUCH harsher)in the ?92 version, most likely because it was filmed in 1992 I am sure, but I wonder. COULD they have been written that way in the book, (more ?passionate and harsh? I mean) and then toned down for the sake of the 1930?s movie going populace? I have no idea. I guess what I am saying is, (perhaps not TOO well) if I had seen the 1939 version BEFORE I saw the other story, my opinions on Heathcliff and Cathy would likely be much different. But because I saw the other film first, I have ALWAYS held a very strong dislike for them and what they do to one another. But in truth, THIS version of the story makes me rethink a LOT of what I used to feel for them. (oh great, now I am sounding like FRANK GRIMES! Ha) I can?t say that I have given up my ?disgust? for them as people, but (especially after re-watching it all this week) and then also reading through some of your posts, I feel the Oliver and Oberon performances paint BOTH of these characters in a far more sympathetic light than I have ever remembered them in the past. So let?s start from there and move forward from that perspective. (and in the meantime, I am strongly considering reading the BOOK now so I can figure this all out from THAT perspective too, and then maybe I can reconcile (or add to, ha) all this confusion in my cluttered mind, (ha) First of all, I want to comment on something Jackie mentioned (because it lays the groundwork for a LOT that will follow in the story afterward. Miss Favell says: Cathy's father destroyed Heathcliff by taking him out of the gutter and then forgetting about him, allowing Hindley to torment him. Where was he when Hindley was tearing the wings off of flies and beating stable boys? These landed "gentlemen" were either cruel, or hopelessly weak or, more to the point, blind I think you have made an excellent point. If Earnshaw HAD been more aware of the needs (for better attitudes) in his OWN children, his attempt to help HEATHCLIFF have a better life might have been more successful. It is not enough to just ?take someone out of the gutter? if all you are going to do is throw them to the wolves instead. I wonder if he was away a lot (on business?) or if he fell ill soon after Heathcliff came into the picture and did not really have a chance to be a better benefactor to this new ?charge? he?d taken in. I don?t know. But he certainly was either CLUELESS or unable to stand up to the behavior and attitude issues in his own children. He was like the ?weekend? daddy who shows up w/ presents, pats the kids on the head, and then moves on to his own wants and interests and leaves someone else to supervise and care for his children. He expected them to adopt HIS good will and morals..but he did not seem to be able to instill them in an effective way (for whatever reason) and it truly did more to HARDEN Heathcliff?s heart (in many ways) than to help it. I LOVE the moment where the young Heathcliff gives him a hug when he THINKS his life has finally gotten better and he has found a home. But sadly it appears that he was later to find out that although Mr Earnshaw had helped him ONE way, he?d just harmed him as well, in a completely different manner. I think Heathcliff was ?savable? and I see Hindley as THE major set back from him truly being ?saved? as a child and then later on CATHY became the ?set back? for him instead. .As time went on, and they all grew up, I think Heathcliff COULD have (and maybe should have) just packed up and left to get out from under Hindley?s HIDEOUS treatment of him. And he most likely would have, IF ONLY it were not for Cathy. So as badly as he was treated, time and time again, there came a point where it really was as much his own fault as anyone?s as he WILLINGLY placed himself in that role. (BOY! talk about ?The things you do for love?, ha) After he runs off (because he THINKS she has rejected him, all bets are off. He is a TOTALLY lost soul from there on out. COULD he have repented and finally just moved on to start his life over? Anything is POSSIBLE, (it should would have made at least HIS life much happier in the end) but I think his heart hard by then (and his HATRED for the names Earnshaw and Linton was too overpowering) For all his strength of personality.. he really was WEAK in character that way. As for Cathy, well I have to say I really tried to pay a LOT closer attention to her this time (more than before, for sure) and I saw a LOT in her I never really noticed before. First of all, early in her relationship with Linton, Cathy is sort of ?swept off her feet? with the idea of having all the ?pretties? she thought she?d ever wanted. It really was an attractive package for her to gaze upon and she WAS immature and very irresponsible. (and self centered too) All of which are a VERY bad combination of character traits for someone when a big ?glitzy? carrot (like the Linton lifestyle) gets dangled out in front of her. Miss Goddess says I think she was rash, thoughtless, a childish slave to her impulses. NONE of these are excuses, but I think Emily Bronte was sketching for us a young woman of mecurical, wild nature You have described her to a ?T? ma?am. I think you have her pegged exactly right. Another thing I would add is that she really isn?t a ?mean spirited? person, though sometimes she ACTS that way. She reminds me of a toddler who is just HONEST enough to not hide the fact that he (or she) REALLY (really, really, no, REALLY!) wants that luscious chocolate COOKIE on the fancy plate on the table. Once they see it, no matter HOW many times Mama might have said ?It?s not polite to ask? their every waking thought will become, ?HOW CAN I GET MY HANDS ON THAT COOKIE?? And Cathy REALLY (really, really, no REALLY!) wanted all the ?pretties? and excitement and perhaps even the romance that a relationship with Linton would bring her. But that was only a TEMPORARY happiness (much like cookie will only make you happy until it is gone) Because her REAL heart and her REAL passion were for Heathcliff. But she was just to immature to realize it and revel in it. She wanted Heathcliff AND the cookie, but reality was just ?real? enough for her that she KNEW she could not have both. She wakes up to this truth gradually, and it takes her several tries to get it right. I like the part where she comes home from the Linton?s (all dressed up quite nicely, a WHOLE new ?Cathy? and she is very ugly toward Heathcliff (and he leaves) but then she comes to her senses and takes off the ?pretty? dress and puts on her every day clothes and runs out to meet him on the Moors. But then she falls back in love with her ?dream? again and gets all ?goo goo eyed? over Linton and his finery and leads him on to the point he proposed to her. But then she comes to her ?senese? again (but SADLY doesn?t FULLY realize her REAL heart without having to talk it all the way through first. And then TRAGICALLY that is what causes Heathcliff to only hear PART of what she said (because she starts out talking about how much she ?loves the cookie? first and he leaves before she says that BIG all powerful revelation ?I am Heathcliff?. So what DID Cathy mean by the whole ?I am Heathcliff? speech? I know that you, Mr. Grey, had a lot of issues with this part of the story (at least early on) and I have given it a lot of thought. The whole build up to that moment where the ?lights? come on for her explains it for me best. She sees life at The Grange akin to ?heaven? and all the ?Lintons-like? people as being ?above? her (and Heathcliff) socially and perhaps in temperament and even in ?morals? but she has reached a place now where she is HAPPY being lower and actually LONGS to be lower than ?the angels?. She finally wants (and embraces) the truth that it is ok to be happy without ?the cookie? (ha. I am getting HUNGRY for cookies now, ha I think I need a snack!) It is GOOD to be ?like? Heathcliff. She IS the same as he is (in terms of what will make her happy in life) and I think THAT is what she means by saying she is ?Heathcliff?. (When I married the QT, our pastor used a phrase in our wedding that sums it up well, I think: ?You are no longer two, but one. One in interest, one in destiny, one in purpose?) Anyway, THAT is what I took Cathy to mean by what she said. Frank Grimes says: And this is actually where I stopped hating Cathy. When she chases after him in the storm and cries because she hurt him, drove him away. I still doubt her sticking with Heathcliff, but I at least see the conflict I am like you and Molo, I want to know WHAT would have happened if she had caught up with him that night. I don?t know if she?d have stuck with him or not. I think she might have. (THEN) but only because of her ?recent revelation? but who?s to say. You could be right and the attraction of all those ?cookies? she was missing out on (ha) might have been more than she could handle. But I also wonder what would have happened if he had walked in and yelled at her (before she finished talking) OR even MORE tantalizing is the thought of what MIGHT have happened for them if he had just stuck it out in that little room behind the kitchen a BRIEF moment longer and he had heard the whole story. Those are the ?fascinating? questions that make talks like this so much fun. WHAT would have happened. IF only.... But alas. Miss Goddess says: It's an ironic twist that her resultant illness from that night landed her in Linton's "lap of luxury" and made it that much easier for her to succumb. I can't say I blame her but I just know what her feelings were deep down about Linton himself. I know she never responded to him in any except gratitude and appreciation for his kindness. Otherwise, I'm sure she was well aware of the difference in her feelings for him and for Heathcliff I have to say that at first it seems like GEE, Cathy just bounces around all over the place, from one ?true love? to another. (and early on, before her big revelation, I think that was true) But after Heathcliff leaves her, she is ?done in?. Not just by the illness from being out in the storm. I think she really felt as if he was gone forever from her and she had NOTHING in life to look forward to. And I think she was grateful to Linton for helping her. You are right, her love for him WAS more about her gratitude and appreciation for his kindness. It was as if her first love? had died and this was the ?kind man? she married in her grief. She loved him (for being so kind to her) but she NEVER had that passion for him that she had for Heathcliff. And I have to say that (despite his ?entitled? and perhaps somewhat ?superior? attitude at times, (he WAS an elite and wealthy ?society? gentleman afterall) I really do see Linton as being a decent guy. (and I need to go back sometime and revisit that ?92 movie because I do not remember him being that way as much in that film. (but I also did not remember David Niven?s version being that likeable either, until I watched it all again this time, so it COULD just be the faulty memory of an OLD woman, ha) Jackie says: And the worst thing is that someone like Edgar never even knew he was doing anything at all - by simply living his life as a manor born "gentleman" - taking what he wanted when he saw it , no matter how benignly I have to confess that although he was not necessarily KIND toward Heathcliff (in general) in fact on a couple of occasions he was downright AWFUL in the way he spoke to him, I don?t think he was any WORSE toward him than you?d expect someone of his ?breeding? to be. (no I am not making excuse, I am just trying to understand his mindset) And I think he absolutely WORSHIPED the ground CATHY walked on. I felt SO sorry for him during that scene on the stairs (where he just got the note from Isabella and Cathy is begging him to go kill Heathcliff, Because then he FINALLY gets it. She wanted him to kill Heathcliff, not to save Isabella but rather to save herself from having to live in a world where Heathcliff was not HERS. And now he has to face the ugly truth that (despite the fact she wants him dead) she REALLY does still love the ?other man? in a way that he will NEVER ever be loved by her. And I liked HER response to that revelation as well. I think she really HAD tried to deny her feelings for Heathcliff up to that point. But then she knew that the truth was just HANGING out there for them both to see and it pained her that she had hurt him. (Because despite all her love for Heathcliff, I really do believe she WANTED to be faithful to her husband and that she had TRIED to care for Linton the best way that she could) It was a powerful moment to be sure. Miss Goddess to Frank and Molo: +And you and Molo have made me appreciate that these two really were in love with a dream, a childlike fairytale as much as with each other. That dream was clean and born of innocence...reality, human weakness and the world intruded to ruin it+ You have it exactly right ma?am. I think if they had been allowed to just stay out on the Moors without the real world intruding on them and if they had just been able to be themselves (without the ugliness of reality creeping in to steal their dreams) they had lived ?happily ever after? But life is NOT a fairy tale. And they WERE very flawed people in a very impossible situation. This actually is a ?grey? moment, ha. If their life had BEEN more ?black and white? then they MIGHT have been able to make better choices. But because it was not CLEAR to them what they should choose (in order to be TRULY happy) they made choices they BOTH regretted and it led them to make even WORSE choices later on down the road and ultimately they destroyed not only their OWN happiness, but the happiness of most everyone around them in the end. Wow.. this is a long post.. my apologies for blabbing on and on and on.. and thanks for letting me get in here so late.. I aplogize that it took me SO long to finally get to see this film again. I appreciate you folks putting up with me! :-) Edited by: rohanaka on Sep 16, 2010 3:28 AM

So how's that for a quick turnaround and admittance of being wrong? What is the world COMING to??????? Now I HAVE to rewatch this again soon... Mr. Grey.. you have given me a LOT to think about here... OH. this is a dramatic moment on the old message board!!

Sure... you say that NOW.

Only most of them! Oh Molo.... and I thought you were my friend.. HA!!!! I can see I have my work cut out for me now. I guess I will have to go stock up on more supplies. (It is going to be a LOVELY season for rope freezing this year)

hope you like that episode. I thought it kind of fit nicely into our discussion, and showed a lot of the strengths of the show. It did!! I will have to check out some of the other episodes for sure! For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them Poor Pappy.. (sniff) talk about a sympathetic bad guy!. (I KNEW he was not going to get away.. but golly he was likeable enough.. )

When confronted about her leaving she concedes that, in her words, she is a coward. She has no family and no place to go Could it be that these women, save for Hallie, marry as a security measure more than love? Possibly. Mr. Moviman... between you and Miss G, you have both hit on what I have been remembering of my impression for at least some of Cathy's actions.. so I will hint at where I will most likely be leaning when I do finally get a chance to watch again.. as this is the comment I have been holding back until I watched again as was I wondering if most of her trouble was the "lack of courage" in the face of the few options she had open.

Hellooooooooooo Moloooooooooooooo!!!! BOY oh boy oh boy!! I turn my back for one night and when I come back LOOK at all the fun I have missed, ha. (Miss G and Jackie are HOLDING that Grey Guy's feet to the fire.. I don't even need to bring my ROPE! ha) And Mr. Mad Hat.. I want to thank you for getting into the fray as well. Okay let me set the scene for you I LOVED your story about your "late night" movie moment out on the sun porch. ha. (WHERE was the snake this time???) Oh wait.. he was on the tv... that lousy HEATHCLIFF!! ha. (sit down, Miss G.. I am only kidding!! HA!!! ) Rohanaka writes: (I have to paraphrase because I can not find your quote anymore) "I hate both characters". (is that about right?) Close enough.. ha. I don't know if 'hate" is the right word or not.. I certainly found very little to LIKE in them and even less to love.. I know for SURE you could say that I was DISGUSTED with them.. OH they just made me so mad.. ha. (but I was mad at them for their own good.. because I DID want for them both to end up happy.. mushy romance kinda gal that I am.. ha) I think so far (based on what I read from your post) you and I are coming down pretty close to the same idea on most of the story... but I want to watch it again (because it has been a while) I am waiting... not TOO patiently for the library to come through for me) And again I want to refresh my memory before I say too much more... especially now because the discussion on Cathy is REALLY intriguing me.. and to be very truthful.. my memory for Heathcliff's character (and who he was) is much better than my memory for her.. so I will have to see if I can get this watched (soon I hope) and then will maybe be able to comment more... But PS: I have to ask this.. ha... because I am starting to take it PERSONALLY. HA!! WHY do all these "troubled" women (who go around making trouble for everyone else too) have variations on the name KATHY?????????? ha. How come they are not named something like "Eloise" or "Mathilde" or "Gertrude" or SOMETHING???? ha. (I am probably going to have to turn in my "Kathy" membership if this much "upset" and "drama" all the time is a pre-requisite for my name.. ha. I am WAY too boring to keep up with the likes of THESE gals. ha. Edited by: rohanaka on Sep 12, 2010 5:19 PM

Howdy Tall T!! (I am liking your new nickname, ha) :-) I believe Patrick would have made sure Mrs. Mims was safe and sound, and then go about tracking down Usher for the murder of Hank, Jeff and Rintoon. With Brennan's hearty determination, there would be no where safe for Usher to go. You might be right. At the very least he would have joined in on any posse that might have set out for him once they made it back to town. You're listening to this tinhorn? Naahhh Rohanaka, you're most likely right. Can't look rough and tough with a candy cane in your mouth. My explanation was being fancy-schmancy/ artsy-fartsy. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or a piece of candy Oh girlie.. don't listen to ME either. ha. It is only an "impression" I got.. anyway.. that is the beauty of these sorts of conversations.. we all bring out thoughts to the table and ramble around about it. It makes for a fun chat when we all see something a bit different in the same thing like that. Me a Western gal? I've got neon & asphalt in my blood. I visit here as a mere pretender to the throne you all own. Well.. you must have a little "rawhide" in that blood as well, little darlin, ha. This certainly has been a banner year for the two of us.. ha. You are feeling all "westerny" and I have dipped my toes in those dark inky "noirs" (though not lately. I need to go find a good one to watch again soon, sometime) Now if we could only get the GREY Dude to lighten up and like Bronte (and/or Austen)stories, ha. Of course the earth would likely go spiraling out of control and fall off its axis or something if THAT were ever to happen.. HA! (guess two out of three aint bad) PS Jackie.. made it through part of my first Paladin!! woo hoo.

I am! I guess "Cathy" is the female "Harry Fabian YIKES!! ha. Perish the THOUGHT, Grey Dude!! (Ms Bronte likely just rolled over in her grave!! ha) I am going to wait until I get a chance to see this movie again (I HOPE not too much longer on my wait w/ the library.. I was #1 on the wait list for it.. so lets hope it will come in soon) and then I will try to answer more fully on some of what you said.. and also some of Miss G's comments too. But I will answer this part of your comments now: It is my belief that girls/women have ideas in their mind of what they want their guy to be. They will run down a "list" of these items. It is also my belief (and experience) that guys do not think this way. I rarely hear a guy going over any kind of list about a girl. "She's this, she's that." I just don't hear that from guys. Women, it's completely the opposite. Even on this board, you will hear all of this from the women but never the guys People often say, "your 'dream girl'," but I just don't have one. I don't think many guys really think this way. What about girls? I'll give you an example. My cousin's ten-year-old daughter and my brother's girlfriend's 7-year-old daughter talk about kissing boys. That's their "thing," right now. Boys ain't talking about kissing girls in the same context I've had women tell me, "you'll find some girl that likes sports... " But I have never thought that way. I just think it's undefinable You DO have a point about some of this. I think the answer is two-fold.. first of all.. little girls are sold a MUCH different set of stories (fairytale princess stuff) than boys. (generally speaking )and so I can see why you are saying that. (And PS: boys are sold a bill of goods too... look at the "ideal" women that get paraded around on TV and movies and magazines... we don't all come in the same package that you see in those images) so it starts early on for both boys and girls.. But there is more two it than that as I still maintain that once we reach a certain age (and level of maturity. or lack thereof, ha) we all have our "lists" (males and females alike) for what we want and THINK we want to find in our mate... and I have heard you say on here yourself in some of our rambles some of the qualities YOU would like to see in a woman or at the very least in a relationship. So you do have a list, whether you realize it or not. So let's take a step back for a moment here and reason this out. Maybe the women you are thinking of (who have such a long list) are just more specific because they have been working on their lists a lot longer..ha. (you know.. way back in that fairytale princess stage) Anyway.. all I am saying is... (and I am speaking ONLY in a general sense here and not specifically of anyone) that men make their lists too.. and sometimes a person (whether a man or woman) needs to step out of their "dreams" to be more objective when looking at potential love interests.. because let's face it... not TOO many "dream girls" or "dream men" are running around out there... but I don't mean that to sound as negative as it may seem. I did not marry until I was almost 30 years old.. and I did not just casually date a lot of people while I was single (just to be 'dating") because I did not see the point.. I was more about "relationships" because I wanted to really get to know the other person.. so in those nearly 10 years of sometimes having a relationship and sometimes being alone, I had a little time to think about all of this. And I guess I am saying that I ONCE used to think (back in my foolish childhood) that I had a vision of what the perfect man would be (and BOY did I have a list and a half) and I never seemed to find that guy no matter where I looked. But later in life... I realized I did not WANT the "perfect man" because ha.. then he'd just spend all HIS time finding fault with me (because I am about as far away from perfect as you can get) :-) It really is not about lowering your expectaions either.. but instead it is more about deciding what your expecations REALLY are.. and washing off some of the "glitter" to make a better list. And what I found out was that what I REALLY wanted (instead of someone "perfect) was someone who was "perfect" FOR me And to find THAT person... you have to REALLY know and be honest about yourself (flaws and all) to be able to recognize that other person (who is just right FOR you) when you find them. It is a process. (and rarely do the bells and whistles and fireworks that can sometimes come w/ all the "passion" of attraction at the beginning of a relationship let you SEE that other person clearly.. you have to step back from all that at some point and look at their true character objectively to see if they really are the right one for you) Ok.. ha.. listen to me blabbling on and on.. sorry..again. And gee.. this has LITTLE (if anything) to do w/ Wuthering Heights.. (sorry Miss G to babble on and on out of context here) Enough is enough... So Grey Guy.. I will spare you all my "marriage" advice here.. ha. Instead, Dr. Rohanaka will be appearing live to sign autographs and will have a question and answer session at the next "How to Find your REAL True Love in 10 Easy Lessons" book signing tour.. coming soon to a Barnes and Noble near you. ha. Rohanaka says: And PS: some men WANT to impress the girls and will LOOK for dragons to slay if they think it will win them points The Grey Guy replies: And I would probably be one of them. But I'm a sap Ha... not true. (at least about being a sap, anyway) For all the kidding around we do, (and we DO kid around a lot.. and MOSTLY at your expense... it is just TOO fun not to, HA) I have found you to be a VERY good "dragon fighter" for the sake of some of us gals.. when there have been dragons on this board. And those of us who are getting the fire breathed on us do appreciate it. Oh gee.. that sounds too nice for the likes of you.. I need to go think of some more "slams" to throw at you instead.. I can't be having you thinking I am turning "softie" here. (where is my rope?? What have I done w/ my hat pin.. I need to go find an octopus) HA

One of us would probably backhand the dragon and possibly slit its throat without thinking when it tried to interrupt us. Ha.. well.. at least it would still be dead. (there is more than one way to kill those rotten dragons, ha)

Have Some Candy, Ro? HA!! No thank you.. not if it is as well traveled as the candy in THAT movie.. HA! Miss Maven.. I am so proud of you!! ha. You are DEFINITLY turning into quite the western gal!! (see.. If I can learn to like Bogart.. there is hope for us all!! ha) What a fun read your ramblings are and this one is not exception. :-) I love when movies gives the bad guy a touch of humanity...but still keeps ?em bad to the bone! He wishes he could/he knows he cannot And there is that "touch of gray.. I mean GREY that the Grey Guy finds so fascinating. ha. (And that I have to confess.. oh don't tell Grimes on me, ha.. it is becoming more interesting to me as well than I ever really realized) I DO like to see my "white hats" do what is right... no matter what. (even if they have to stop and think about it a while first) But OH those Black hats.. I am a bit torn. ha. Sometimes it is good to just watch them plow a field w/ their evil ways and not look back (so I can enjoy them getting mowed down later on.. sort of like ****, maybe) but lately I must confess it is also WAY cool when they have those "moments of conscience" that turn their black a little gray too (more like Boone's character). And yet.. at the end of the day.. unless they repent (which I also ALWAYS enjoy).. they ultimately stay black as night.. There are sometimes more possiblities with a villian in movies like this one (than in other movies maybe) and it makes for a more interesting (and multi-layered) black hat that way, I guess. And you know me.. I am always wanting to know why they do the things they do.. so those little glimpses inside their heads (and/or hearts) are fun that way. (I must confess) ha. I?ve come to think that Brennan had such horse sense that he probably could see the good in a bad guy and give him a chance to work it through on his ranch. And I think he talked plain to him b?cuz he thought maybe he could reach him on some level. Naaaah, that little boy down the well offered no redemption for Frank Usher. Besides, real cowboys don?t show fear. Here is where I?m going with you, Movieman. Maybe you can say you?re afraid, but don?t, for Pete?s sake, SHOW it I am with you Miss Maven on this.. I think he used those conversations as "distractions" while he looked for opportunity. He might even have used them as a chance to make himsel look "weaker" and less of a threat than he was.. so they would lower their guard a bit more when his chance came. I think it worked on two out of the three anyway.. (****.. I don't think ANYTHING would have made him less willing to take out anybody.. all he wanted was to kill.. oh.. and then go back to those women..ha) Anyway.. I don't think Brennan was at all interested in helping any of them to reform.. and I also don't think he was about letting Usher just "ride away" a free man, either. I think if it had just been him and Boone (without the woman present) he'd have fought him on his feet (not shooting him outright) to keep him from getting on that horse to ride away. But he did not want to risk anything happening to himself or her (because of HER) so he played it safe and just kept the gun on him... he wasn't going to shoot an unarmed man.. and it was wiser at the moment not to fight him... and that was the ONLY reason Boone was getting a CHANCE to get away. (that is how I saw it anyway) I think if Brennan HAD been able to stop him from riding off.. (and not have had to kill him to do it) he'd have taken him straight to the sheriff because I do not see any way he'd have let Boone just "up and leave". (I kept wanting him to shoot Boone's horse and make him walk in front of them all the way to town... (I know... ha. that would be mean.. and I guess was likely above his "cowboy code" too.. no sense making the HORSE pay for someone else's crime, ha) I believe the one pang of conscience he had was exhibited in the way he batted away those striped candy with his gun. With the candy, the Boy (?s ghost) came back and it was a devilish reminder. Conscience, regret...and fully understanding and accepting his part in all this...no ma'ams hmmmm.. I had a whole other take on that. I thought he swatted it away because he was annoyed at how "childish" Billy Jack was acting at such a "bad guy" moment. To me it was a sign of impatience with his cohort more than guilt.. but you could be right. The Grey Dude says: ?So is Doretta the "Charlotte Vale" of westerns?? Miss Maven replies: HA! Man, that gave me a big laugh. I love the cross-referential thing. Shows you know your oats movies. ?Don?t lets ask for the moon. We have the cave HA!!! I totally missed that in Mr Grey's original post.. GOOD one, Grey Guy!! RE: the Kipling Poem: If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you; If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or, being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise; Wow.. those lines are PERFECT for Brennan. This may be the first time I can ever recall Kipling being quoted in a western ramble.. ha. But it fits very well. (golly.. I am getting shades of that actor (and Doc Holiday) quoting Shakespear in My Darling Clementine ha) Way to raise the bar and add a touch of class for us here in the old west, little missy.

I love it. Never hear that one Ha.. it's an "oldie but a goodie" around these parts. ha. When you get ready our friends and I can make any number of acceptable suggestions Thank you sir. Between you and Miss G, and Ms Favell.. and now mrsl and wouldbestar too.. I will have a lot of Scott movies to sort through. (and I am sure there are more where those came from!)

Hiya mrsl!! Here I am sticking my nose and it's two cents in Your two cents are welcome anytime, ma'am. My absolute favorite of his movies is Ride Lonesome, for a couple of reasons. Just as he is kind and gentle with Mrs. Mims, he is equally so with Karen Steele, not at first, but after a while you see what a fine, warm, and good gentleman he is. Talk about an expressive face!!! Now that is a good recommendation if I ever heard one.. and OH boy.. Pernell Roberts too... yeehaw. I will make a point of finding that one for sure.

Kinda like my stupid original opinion of John Wayne all over again Ha.. or me and Henry Fonda.. or me and BOGEY.. (or me and tomatoes for that matter!! HA!) And how about that scene where he is telling her how awful her husband (who he just killed) was, and how she should be relieved! I actually loved that scene.... he was right, that Mims was a snake. He would have made her life a living .....well, you know Ha.. yes he would have for sure. And it was a "healthy dose" of grim reality for her. But in the end.. she saw it for the truth and so it was a good thing. It is never easy to face those sorts of truths. and the timing was pretty lousy.. but in the end, I think it helped make her stronger to face it.. and I actually think it was a good thing that it came from Boone (and not Scott). She already HATED him.. so there was none of that "hate the messenger" thing to worry about. Be careful! It's addictive! You'll be running to the library asking for season 1 before you know it Ha.. I am already trying to see when I can plan some time into my weekend the next few days to at least get started watching the first youtube. I really am looking forward to it.

Hello My DEAR Grey friend.. They annoy me. Ha.. they ticked ME off. I just get so MAD in movies (and in real life too) when I see people let their own stubbornness and selfish behavior keep them from their own happiness in life. What a waste! BAH!! This has become one of my least favorite of films Now that is sad and surprising to hear. I thought you were Mr. Tragedy and Darkness. ha. And what kind of love is it if you leave it so easily? I'm speaking of Cathy. I do believe Heathcliff loves her. In fact, I believe he's paralyzed by his love of her. He shovels "dirt" to be with her. She wouldn't do the same for him. They are both victims of their own pride (and selfishness) in some way or another. The tragedy for both of them is that they discover TOO late that all the "obstacles" they thought stood between them and their own happiness were mostly of their own making and they waited too late to do anything about it. find it odd that she says she's "Heathcliff." She isn't. She's definitely "Cathy I want to wait until I get the chance to see this again before I answer you. I think you are right (to a point) but I want to hear all of what she said in that conversation w/ the housekeeper before I say for sure. I don't view Cathy as sacrificial. Not at all. In a way, she's very similar to Vance (Barbara Stanwyck) in The Furies. Vance would always ride to Juan (Gilbert Roland) whenever she was upset. But after using Juan for her selfish needs, she'd ride away from him to where her real interests lie I can see the comparison you are making between Cathy and Vance as far as them both turning to the men they know will make them feel better emotionally when they get upset. But to follow your lead and contrast the men they turned to: Juan was selfless.. (in his love for Vance) and Heathcliff.. was not. So the similarity more or less ends there for me. I give Heathcliff the benefit of the doubt since he did sacrifice for her. Unlike Heathcliff, Juan never sells out. He's truly a sacrificial love. He stays true to himself. Heathcliff actually becomes what Cathy wants him to become but it leaves a bitter taste in his mouth I had to put both of these statements by you side by side and read them a couple of times because at first I thought you were trying to have it both ways.. either Heathcliff was willing to sacrifice or he wasn't.. but I THINK (if I am understanding you) that you are saying that his real sacrifice was in "selling' out because he thought it would put him in the right status to finally be "worthy" for Cathy. (is that what you are saying?) If so, I am not sure if I agree totally that those were his motivations entirely (or not) and again.. I will watch it more closely this time so I can answer you better. And PS: I agree w/ the last part you said regarding Juan.. he stays true to his love for Vance (by giving himself up for her)and Heathcliff did sort of "sell out' to become more or less everything he did not like (in others). (but again.. I want to re-watch before I say for sure why I think he did it) She's like Dr. Frankenstein, looking to create her monster. And this plays into my belief that women do dream of their ideal and men really don't OH I will likely go way further with this than you might have intended but by golly I am still waiting on my copy of the movie.. ha. so I have to talk about SOMETHING.. so here it goes. HA! I think you are painting w/ a pretty broad brush to say that. (I can't tell if you are being serious or not) It is not always the WOMAN that wants to "makes the monster". I think that there could be a lot of examples we could find where men THOUGHT they had the "ideal" woman only to be made fools of and find out how wrong they were. I think it is a common thing on both sides.. Some PEOPLE spend all their time idolizing an "ideal" of the perfect mate and then they try to create (or RE-create) someone they want to fit into that mold. And other PEOPLE (men and women) are the opposite of this in that they try to look at a potential mate for who they really ARE and try to see them for themselves (instead of trying make them fit a pre-conceived notion of how they ought to be). Nothing is SO blind as someone who has deluded himself (or herself) into believing someone is "something" they are not. ( Look at poor Edward G Robinson in Scarlet Street) You can't MAKE another person BE the person you THINK they are.. they either really ARE that way or they are not. But having said ALL that.. do people.. men and women alike... have "dreams" of what they WANT to find in a "perfect" mate?? Sure. Everyone does. But the happier person is the one who is more willing to look at things honestly (and w/out the "rosey" glasses) when it comes time to decide if someone else is the "right one" or not. Better to be loved "clay feet" and all than to be put up on that pretty pedestal and be found TOO late to have those feet of clay... OH the fall out from that is NEVER a pleasant thing. Ok. ha I apologize if I took that too far. You know me.. blab, blab, blab. :-) And maybe that's Emily Bront?'s point. That girls expect boys to go off and slay dragons for them and then come back to spoil them royally. But isn't that one-sided Well I do agree that SOME girls are like that. But it would be pretty sad if ALL girls were.. because YES it IS one sided. And PS: some men WANT to impress the girls and will LOOK for dragons to slay if they think it will win them points. For me and my money.. it is WAY more rewarding (in a relationship) to tackle the dragon as a TEAM. The QT has HIS strengths.. and he brings them to the table.. and I have mine.. and I bring those to the table.. and then it's "DRAGON WATCH YOUR BACK" We are one team working together.. and that is a beautiful thing. Miss G was right, I don't like Cathy because I feel she's the worst of woman. There are women in this world who say they believe in love but they'll quickly toss it aside for other things. What do we value most in life? Well that's what it really boils down to in the end, isn't it? And you are right.. women like Cathy make all us gals look bad. ha. (But men like Heathcliff don't win TOO many points in my book either. He was cruel, spiteful, and very bitter.. He lashed out like a spoiled child to hurt the one he loved (and the one who took her from him) Not exactly a "model" fellow in the true love department... and not at all "selfless" and sacrificing, was he? Don't misunderstand.. he was certainly "the wounded" party.. and a very "tragic figure" in that regard. But HOW LONG (especially after the ones who hurt him are DEAD AND GONE) did he have to carry THAT grudge around and let it destroy everything he touched and all he came in contact with.. what a sad way to live (and die). PS: Miss G. I NEVER knew that about Bronte and the Austens... golly.. what a thing to say.. I will take those roses ANY day over this "reality". At least (most of) Austen's characters FINALLY came to their senses.. before they DIED!!

Helllloooo Ms Favell!! Brian Donlevy is definitely growing on me as an actor - especially in the roles where he shows a soft side I need to check out that softer side more.. ha.. because USUALLY when I think of him it is either as A) a sniveling coward.. (like this movie) or a TOTAL monster and menace.. like Beau Geste.. he did a good job w/ BOTH those personas.. sometimes TOO good a job, oh my golly.. ha. Have you seen Ride the High Country? Because McCrea and Scott are sooo..... GREAT in it. Yes, GREAT is the only word I think I actually have seen the ending to this movie.. but not enough to get a feel for what it was all about. I think I need to check it out again sometime from the sound of it. I totally understand what you are saying about Randolph Scott - for years I thought he was just a terrible actor, with cold slitty eyes and a really twangy Virginia accent. I could not see what the fuss was about I likely sounded more negative about him last night than I intended. I do like him in some of the films I have seen.. he has just not really registered all that high on my "favorite" scale before. He just seems to often wear the same "stone" expression in everything.. I guess... But wow.. those screencaps you posted really tell a different tale.. you really CAN see the emotion under the surface... especially behind his eyes.. like in that cap you posted where he hears the news about the little boy. He must be one of those "still waters run deep" kinda guys.. you picked some REALLY good examples to hilight deeper side for sure. I really do think he did a very good job in this movie.. and I also liked him in Seven Men from Now too.. so I think most of my issues w/ him will get resolved if I spend a little more time w/ some of his films. (Like they say.. ha. "Ignorance can be fixed" But I won't finish the rest of that quote.. it might work against me somehow.. HA!) Richard Boone is just fantastic - and you have hit on his strength - he IS very conversational... I LOVE the way he tosses off his lines as if you were right there in the room with him. He doesn't seem to be acting at all. I love how he talked to Mrs. Mims by the campfire (that first night) "Lady, you sure can cook" (or something like that) For some it might come off as a "ho-hum" passing line.. but for him.. you could hear the suprise.. the admiration.. and a hint of insult (as if he were "taunting and teasing" his prisoner) all at the same time. If you EVER get the chance, I recommend HGWT - I don't think you will be disappointed. There are some episodes on you tube Woo hoo!! Thanks for that, little lady. After reading comments about it from you and Miss G and others.. I will look forward to it. :-)

She ironically got more attractive as she "came undone", too She did, didn't she. I think her voice even became stronger.. and yet softer (in some respects) though that likely does not make any sense. ha. PS: Mr Movieman: Scott and McCrea made only westerns after about 1947 or so. If you love westerns.... Does a one legged duck swim in a circle? ha. I will take your advice sir.. I am always open to finding new favorites.

I don't like him in this film or Pride and Prejudice. He annoys me. Not my kind of guy, at all. I find him to be very off-putting. You might be one who would like the 1992 version of this story more (maybe, I don't know) I found the characters to be very "grim and dark"... way more so than in this version.. And boy oh boy, that Ralph Fiennes is no Olivier. :-) (but for you that might be a good thing) ha. To be truthful the later version has its merits, but overall.. I prefer the "romanticized" version of the 1939 film... (which I HOPE will be in at the library soon for me so I can watch it again to refresh my memory and then maybe I will talk more about IT and less about the more modern film, HA!) .