[Western Movie Rambles]

Hiya Miss Maven... welcome to the western side of town...

 

As for "THE FURIES" I?m looking forward to catching it next Tuesday on the Film Forum screen. I?ve seen it before, can?t take Wendell Corey, but the soap opry-ness of the big emotions is pulling me in. And then there?s Stanwyck?s vengeance and that scissor throwing scene. Check this out when you get a chance:

and get back to me on that

 

Ha.. he has it right... a film noir, although I am sure he meant to say "western" ha, instead of restroom.

 

And OH.. Poor Wendell.. ha. Where is the love??? (I thought Rip was one of the best charcters in that whole movie..ha. But I am... well... still lonely on my mountain top w/ that one. ha. You'd have to go WAY way back in the thread here to find it... but the Grey one and I went around and around.. (and around and around and around, ha) over that guy... and Vance too for that matter. ha. It was a very fun chat. And the best part of it all.. was at the end of the day(s) nobody walked away with a pair of scissors in their face. HA!!

 

Let's make it harder, is it fair based pure and simply: race

 

It truly is an ugly commentary on a part of our history as a nation that those sorts of laws were ever even thought of, let alone allowed to be enacted. But the past does not have a monopoly on that. (but I won't go there)

 

MISS MAVEN says: If you leave the government alone, it kind of leaves you alone. So my only conclusion is that it was Coolan?s doing all this, stirred up the pot and reared the ugly (pathologically jealous) head of racism

 

MISS G says: He was rotten, for sure. But where would the Coolan's be without people who want more and more and are willing to bargain with him to get it?

 

I think (sad to say) Coolen only speeded it up. Miss G is right. Coolen would have been NOWHERE if the people had not been willing to follow him. But I imagine (given time) sooner or later someone else would have come along and put a bee in the government's bonnet (so to speak) and Lance still would have had a fight on his hands. But maybe if it had been a more gradual thing.. Orrie MIGHT have had a chance to truly help Lance put up a legal fight. I don't know. At the very least Lance might have had a chance to consider other possible ways to defend his land and his people other than dynamite. At the end of the day though, I still doubt the end result would have been him keeping that land. It took a good long while before those sorts of laws (againt property ownership, etc) were finally put in their place. (the trash heap of history)

 

I could be wrong, not being a Western aficionado but I?m thinking of Gary Cooper?s ?HIGH NOON? western hero and how he would perhaps CHALLENGE the law and help Lance. Coop did what?s right regardless of the law. (Am I off my nut here? I know I'm being repetitive).

 

I don't know. I think Coop (as Will Kane) would have gone for the "symbollic gesture" (like he did in HN) and tossed his badge in the dirt. Then he might have gone over and fought along SIDE of Lance. (sort of like I was talking about earlier.. that I wished the sherriff in this story had done) But if he (will Kane) had stayed behind the badge (like in DD) I doubt he'd have been able to do any more than poor old "Uncle Joe" did. Unfortunately.. the law he had sworn to uphold and defend was "the law". Sad to say.

 

Very wonderfully put. I believe there are people thinking this as we write

 

It is a desparate thing to think you no longer have anyone but yourself. I have no doubt there are people out there who feel this way. HOW they got to that point could be argued all day. Whether they should or should not feel this way... again.. could be debated. To me, the interesting thing about it all is that there are people on both sides of the political fence now days who have this sort of mindset. And cases could be made for both their points of view. (UGH.. this is something I NEVER thought I'd say, but it is a grey, grey, grey, grey world... or at least it LOOKS like one sometimes) I have always been more black and white and it PAINS me to have to say that. The best thing we can do for ourselves is to seek out what is true and not rely on what all the politicians (and media folk) are trying to spoon feed us. This aint' "THE X FILES" (though it might FEEL sometimes like space aliens have invaded and take over all the politicians' BRAINS, ha) But I guess what I am saying is.. the truth really IS out there.. you just have to dig through all the hype to find it.

 

Are you talking about our Message Board again??

 

Ha.. actually no.. but if the comparison fits...

 

So true Ro. One can stay in the cycle of hate and rage (?the Angry Black Man?) and be able to hide behind that rage to avoid doing something to better one?s life. You keep the blame from you and put it on someone else instead of taking responsibility for what you CAN change.

 

The only thing hanging on to bitterness and hate will do for you.. is make you more bitter and hateful in the end. And yes, taking responsibility for your own life and future and not just blaming others for the past is exactly what I am talking about. Moving forward in the face of all the wrongs that may have been done to you (and taking the strengths you have had to learned to develop over time because of all the adversity you faced ) and making a better life for yourself despite all the challenges is truly the only way to break the cycle. . In a way it is the best revenge. (as in... you might have kept my ancestors down but you didn't get ME)

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Jul 2, 2010 11:55 AM

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

Hi there Miss Maven...

 

I am so glad you got the chance to see DD and that it bowled you over the way it did. It truly was a very poweful and absolutely thought provoking story. Great write up on your impressions here as well, ma'am. I love how you lay out the facts and come up a great synopsis while sharing your thought as well. It makes for a very fun read. (I will go over to western rambles and check out your comments there, too)

 

our politicians should watch and our citzenry as well. I'm telling you, I see more and more Coolans every day in politics).

 

The only tough part about today (vs way back then) is that it is happening on every side. The way our political climate seems to be today, very often one group of folks will yell and complain... and call the other side and it's followers "sheep" and then before you know it... the OTHER side is doing the same. And depending on who is doing the talking.... and who is doing the listening... a case could be made either way. The truth is still out there in the mix somewhere, but BOY OH BOY a person really has to do his homework to find it all out.

 

It is much easier to see a movie like DD and KNOW who was the bad guy right up front... But nowdays...

 

(Oh let's not go there... )

[Western Movie Rambles]

Oh Wowsa... I am too busy today to keep up in here the way I wish I could. ( :-( ) But I just have to pop in and make a few quick comments. (ha.. you know me.. blab, blab, blab) HA.

 

Ms Favell... I salute you! I ABSOLUTELY cannot say enough about the great job you are doing w/ the screencaps. OH MY GOLLY your last post (showing the downward spiral for Lance and his general appearance.. his eyes going from bright and engaging.. to literally dead inside) what a PERFECT catch. Thanks so much for bringing that into the chat. (It's been just long enough since I watched this that I had completely forgotten that one where he is looking at the baby and likely speculating what sort of future he will have.... heartbreaking)

 

PS: Miss G:

 

there is no real running forever from the truth. We all know what happened and people can pretend or ignore, but in the end, you pay for what you are---this holds true for societies as well as individuals. Coolan eventually got what he deserved, he sowed the seeds of his own destruction

 

Well said, little young'un. He got the just punishment (here on earth... and I am sure afterward as well) that he so richly deserved. Sooner or later... we all get our paycheck. And I am glad to see that he was well paid. (PS: Jackie..ha. I hated him too!! It was a TRUE pleasure to see him go. OH me, we are ruthless, aren't we?? ha)

 

PS: Mr. Movieman, sir:

 

The things he fought for are not extended to him

 

That really was it in a nutshell, wasn't it? I think I mentioned it before but it more or less just made him a "man without a country". All that he had fought to defend now belonged to someone else without any sort of justification whatsoever. It is not hard at all to see how quickly things ended up going downward for him (as Jackie pointed out) to suddenly become so disillusioned by it all. Very tragic.

[Western Movie Rambles]

OH Ms. Favell... I am so happy you have dropped in to share all this. You have raised the bar here, little lady w/ your insight into Lance and the situation he was in. What a terrific post. (and THANK you for the screencaps too... you always have a great eye for detail... that first one /w the four men at the bar.. and the perspective it creates.. GREAT catch, kiddo)

 

His wounded performance moved me deeply. I was surprised at the look of hurt on his face throughout the film. That any man should be treated in such a way is insupportable. That he actually believed that he could live amongst white people without incident is heartbreaking, and almost unbearable to watch.

 

"Wounded" is a great word for it. And he was hurt and surprised too, I think you have nailed it all kid. It truly was heartbreaking to see it all unfold.

 

That one man could manufacture out of whole cloth such evil around him is stunning, but all too true a situation, as we all well know. We know what it is to be swept up by events, to fight a bad situation as hard as you can, to try to color within the lines as everyone tells you to, and finally to come out on the bottom, worse than when you started. It hurts. In fact, it can kill. To wound the spirit is the worst thing a man can do, I think

 

Perfectly said, little lady. The tongue has such a capacity for GREAT evil and that man had it down to a science didn't he? VERY sinister methods..but you are right... it is all too true a portrayal of situations we can see all throughout history. Very sinister indeed.

 

liked the tone and style of the film - the way it becomes more and more clear that they will not win any battle because the deck is stacked against them. I found it remarkably similar in tone and style to The Ox-Bow Incident. Some of the shots seem as if they came right from the other movie. The severe closeups of men looking with suspicion as the action and events go swirling around them...the tension....it all seemed very similar to me.

 

You raise a good comparison here. I can see some similarities at least to the way people allowed themselves to be steered and led... and also by the whole "stacked deck" sort of situation that Lance had working against him. It really did not matter what the truth was anymore to some of those folks. They began to take on a "righteous" attitude about it (even though they could not have been more wrong) And then some of them simply could not see the evil of their wrong thinking at all, anymore. Very frightening to think that people could be that willfully blind to what should be (to quote the founding fathers again) "Self-evident".

 

Thanks again, little missy, for raising the bar on our conversation here. :-)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Hi there Mr. Movieman!

 

He wanted to wait it out, rationalize with them and, in a western, that wasn't going to work

 

You are right... those westerns weren't much for for "Now let's be rational folks." ha. And taking a "wait and see" attitude usually only served to allow enough time to get a bunch of townfolked organized against you. Sometimes in Westerns, a person can talk a "mob" down either by intimidation or by appealing to their guility conscience (there are great scenes for that in a LOT of really good western movies) and there are other times when the mob rules (and then there is that whole "necktie party" thing going on) but rarely do you get a scenario where they pull up a table and sit down and say... now if we can just talk this out... I am sure we can make this all better. Diplomacy and reason just weren't a western sort of theme in most movies of that genre. ha.

 

If money equals power than Coolan was there. I think his bigotry just added fuel to his fire when he whipped up all the anger against Lance. He gets the crowd to do his dirty work for him. He is great at making speeches but he's back in the tent when it all comes to a head. He is just waiting. He'll come in and run things when it is over. Or so he thinks.

 

That is a great way to describe him (based on what I remember of him as well) He was very much a "pot stirrer" and perfectly willing to let others do the "dirty work" once he got them led in the right direction for his purposes. What a low life.

[Western Movie Rambles]

HELLO Harry

 

if you truly don't approve of something and you're in an authority position that comes in conflict with this, then you probably should get out. But the sheriff and others weren't strongly against what was going on, they just disapproved of it. They'd rather it not be that way, but not to the point where they would stand up and fight for it not to be. Like so many civil rights issues, it's ultimately going to take a portion of the majority to help the minority.

 

I think you have it right. Truthfully.. I wanted him to take off his badge and go stand next to Lance.. but that just was not going to happen. It goes back to what I was saying before.. it is best to know in advance what you believe (about right and wrong sorts of things) so that when it is time to make a moral choice like that.. you already know where you are going to stand. It is one thing to say "I'd never do______." Or to say "I think everyone should _________" with regard to certain ideals and truths that "should be "self evident". (like it says in the Constitution by the way) Our forefathers made it clear.. "We hold these truths to BE self evident"... But the trouble is... unless you already have that moral compass clearly pointing in the direction you SAY you believe... it is not always "evident" what way you should go when the "chips are down" and you have to decide.

 

This is why I have always maintained such a strong "leaning" toward black and white truths over "gray/grey" ideals. To me.. gray is ok for some things in life.. but not for the stuff that REALLY matters in the end. (UGH!! Oh me.. I am not trying to go down THAT rabbit hole either.. ha. WHERE did these little bunnies all COME from anyway???) :-)

 

Still, families were being driven from their homes because they were poor. There's some discrimination involved with that, too.

 

Maybe. I'd really have to sit here and think about it a while. "Poor" is a relative term. And "discriminate" can also be one too. Sometimes people were placed in unfair economic systems through no fault of their own and kept there by ruling classes with no chance to make a better life for themselves. THAT would be a case for "discrimination" with regard to the poor. And maybe you could say that some "rich" people look down on those less fortunate than themselves and value them less because of their social status. And that would be discriminatory too. But not all "poor people" who are forced into situations where they must leave the home they love (and perhaps have worked on all their lives) are made to leave because they have been discriminated against. It is just an unfortunate side effect of a poor economy. (or perhaps a bad choice on the part of the person who "lost out" when their finances went belly up. Things happen. It is not always the "rich person" who is at fault. And while it is sad.. tragic.. and very disheartening.. it is not discrimination to hold a buyer to the contract they signed of their own free will. (and believe me... I am no "financial wizard" here.. and have very limited resources myself.. so it is not like I am a "pro-rich" person. I am just trying to be careful in how I answer here.... those doggone rabbits, you know.)

 

The similarity, for me, was in the strong-arming of a man and his stake by the powers that be. A "little fish" is the minority and a "shark" is the majority. Some would say, the strong eat the weak. That's how life works. You may not like it... but tough. That's the whites and indians or any other race and civilizations. That's Harry Fabian versus Kristo. Don't feel sorry for Harry Fabian, he was overpowered and outnumbered. It was wrong for him to believe he could be somebody, to have his place.

 

Well.. I just am not seeing this the same way as you do. (because I can't see Harry in the same light you do) But I do agree w/ you on the "concept' of what you are saying. I just don't think it applies to Fabian VS Kristo. (and we could go on and on about that all night.. ha. I think we already did, once!! HA!)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Hi there Miss G!

 

The Peacemaker is BACK, ha

 

Ha.. well thank you. But I think you and Mr. Grey are way ahead of me though. I am still trying to fill in the gaps on some of the stuff I have forgotten (in the last few weeks after I watched it) ha.. I think I mentioned.. I am old and forgetful. HA.)

 

Remember his comment? "When I was in the regular army they were more careful about who they allowed to serve...." or words to that effect, implying that Lance's military experience was somehow not as legitimate as his own.

 

I do remember that now that you have brought it up. Isn't that a horrid and ghastly commentary on the sort of man that "what's his name" was? Ha (now I can't remember it EITHER. ha) It is bad enough that he is using the unfairness of the law to his advantage.. but he is taking pleasure in it and making "bold" with his good fortune (that only was coming about at the expense of another) I hate seeing anyone who tries to make others look small.. just so they will appear "bigger". That to me is among the most arrogant sorts of behavior a person can display. VERY low.

 

You don't need to go into any rabbit hole. I was just thinking that if you feel that way about how Ford filmed Steinbeck's novel, you'd lose your lunch had he stayed strictly true to the source. I for one am glad he (and Zanuck) toned it down.

 

Yes, I do think I recall you mentioning that to me once before. I don't know why some of the things I dislike about that story resonate more with me than some of the things I DO like about it. It IS a good film and a very powerful performance by several.. especially Fonda. I must have a loose wire to be so critical about some of the "issues" I have, ha.I know it is a beloved classic for almost everyone who sees it and there is so much history and humanity in it... it is not that I dislike the film.. I just have my weird little "things" that bug me about it (who do I think I am, anyway??) :-)

 

anybody can look at Lance and think, what if someone came and told me what I owned was no longer mine just because of my race (or culture or religion)? Of course, the banks/credit card companies are the real owners of my stuff!

 

Well.. when it comes to ownership of property.. there are basic rights we all deserve to share.. to be FREE to own it... and then there are "risks" we take by signing on the dotted line in order to own it. Those are not the same thing are they? You are right... The "basic right" is only ours when we have cleared whatever debt we may have put ourselves in to OWN the property. (and OH.. that can seem to take forever sometimes, can't it?? ugh)

 

Mann really uses violence to "purge" characters and stories of their conflicts. He rarely uses any other method. But it's interesting that they aren't the shoot-em-up blazes of glory, but painful and costly to all involved.

 

I have not seen as many of his films as you, but I have noticed that about him. There is no "easy road" to resolve the conflicts for most of his characters. At least it seems like that. I think you have it right.

 

PS: thanks for the tip on Raw Deal.. to get a good word on it from both the Grey Guy and YOU.. that gives me the "Miss G seal of approval"... ha. Because I KNOW I can trust YOU. (ha)

 

(Oh Grey Guy.. you know I am only kidding w/ you.)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Howdy there My DEAR Mr. Grey:

 

They were in a tough spot. Their livelihood was in danger yet they considered Lance to be a good friend. How far are you willing to go for a friend? Very "civil rights," to be sure.

 

There comes a time when we all have to choose what we stand for and what we believe is right or wrong... and it is BEST to do that before a situation like the one in this story comes up. If you already know what you believe (about certain moral situations) it is easier to know what to do when you have to choose. But with the new laws and the arrival w/ the homesteaders, the whole "world" was changing around them all so quickly (at least their own little world rigth there) that it was hard for some folks to keep up. The sorts of choices they had to make w/ regard to Lance and what was RIGHT (regardless of what the law said) really do wear on people who don't like to get involved too much. I think the sherriff WANTED Lance to be treated as fairly as anyone else... but he did not want to stick his neck out and "buck" the system. But truthfully.. what more could he do? If he had walked away from his sworn duty.. it might have been a "symbolic" gesture... but it wasn't going to change the outcome of what eventually happened, sad to say.

 

But then again.. if EVERYONE just went along with things (because they think their protest would only be "symbolic") I suppose nothing would ever change. It is a tough call, I guess. At least he tried to keep the peace and keep things from escalating.. even if only for a time. Still... I wanted him to do SOMETHING other than just try to be a "go between". THAT obviously didn't work out so well in the end, now did it?

 

It's as if his fighting, commanding, and valor (medal) didn't mean squat. He was being used. He was merely a pawn

 

To feel you have been "disenfranchised" by the very government you once were sworn to protect and defend (with great honor and sacrifice I might add) was like adding insult to injury for him. It truly was a slap in the face to all the things he did to earn that medal. To say he no longer had the right to be treated as an equal "citizen" after giving so much for the sake of the ones who were now working against him... very tragic.

 

It reminds me of The Grapes of Wrath

 

Maybe a little bit. But to me it is even deeper than that. It is a more basic human right that is being violated for Lance. We all want to have a home and feel like we should be entitled to live in our own homes.... but money was the issue for the Joads. (or the lack of it, maybe) The "haves" were taking from the "have not's". And we could likely argue the rights and wrongs of that.. but the sorts of problems that their poverty brought about for them were NOT all the fault of "the haves". There was more to it than that. (Though I DO confess they were likely made WORSE by those who sought to capitalize on thier misfortune)

 

But it wasn't for any reason other than his race that everything was being taken from Lance. THAT is about as basic as it gets. Anybody can try to make a go of it.. and fail.. based on finances and fortune.. but to deny someone their rightful property because they had the wrong skin color.. THAT is a different thing altogether.

 

So I don't see the same sort of comparison to the situations w/ TGOW... mainly because (oh.. I KNOW I am likely more in the minority w/ this one) to me.. the problems in TGOW did not involve the same sort of fundamental human rights issues that are in DD. (But then I have a few issues w/ more than a few of the themes in TGOW that maybe others here do not.. so again.. I may be in the minority on that line of thinking) Oh great.. ha.. now I will have everyone saying.. that cold hearted Kathy.. no sympathy for the Joad family. (NOT true... by the way.. but it is just WAY more complicated than I want to be w/ this conversation. So I will stay out of that little rabbit hole for now, ha)

 

So to get back to DD.... to me... what happened to Lance is a WHOLE other kettle of fish from what happened to the Joads (and it happened for a whole other reason) So I don't know if I can compare the two films too closely in that regard.

 

To be truthful I have thought and thought about what story I COULD compare it to and I still have not found one yet. To me.. this film really is a "ground breaker" in that respect.

 

It's not the means so much as what they incur and the result. The "law" is telling them they cannot have their piece of the pie.

 

I am still not on the same level with you in comparing Harry w/ Lance. But you and I never really have seen eye to eye on what Harry was doing (in terms of his motives) and who he was as a person... so that is likely why. If I viewed Harry more in the same light as you do.. I might be more inclined to see what you are saying a bit more closely. But I am w/ Miss G... he tried to get something for nothing. Sure.. he had to work hard to do it.. but it was not the same. And when he lost it all, it wasn't because he was the victim of the same sort of "prejudice" as Lance. He wanted to get in on the action and make a name for himself w/ big wig "gambling" kings who played HARD ball. He tried to be like them... but he did not have the "polish" to carry it off... and they ate him for lunch as a result. He was a little fish who tried to be a shark.. and he lost out.

 

Lance was a man who worked hard for the life he had made for himself and the people he cared for. He did not try to "pull" anything on anyone to get what he wanted.. He wasn't just trying to make it big and was being denied a piece of the pie. The law was trying to TAKE the pie that he had already made away from him (and only because of his race) And he only went against the law when he saw that the law he SHOULD have been able to rely on for protection had turned on him instead.

 

To be truthful (going along the line of thinking Miss G brought up about Coolen and his motives) I would put Harry more in line HIM (instead of Lance) but Harry was just a "nicer" guy and not so "cut throat" about it. (OH.. I know.. you are sticking your tongue out at me for THAT one.. ha. Now I am just being mean.. ha. WHERE is the love for HARRY?? The poor guy) The truth of the matter is he COULD have had all the love and sympathy from me in the world if his "sorry" at the end of it all had been more abuot knowing the WRONG of all he'd done rather than just feeling bad that he never quite got the big break he'd always hoped for. I think he DID feel bad.. but it was too little.. too late... but I digress.

 

Anyway.. going back (again) to Harry VS Lance... I can see why you are comparing their situations (based on your point of view of who and what Harry was all about) but I still can't quite reach that far for him.

 

What he has already witnessed with young eyes could definitely make him bitter and angry. A vicious cycle may continue.

 

You are right.. and I bet circumstances like that (vicious cycles, if you will) played out in the hearts of MANY people like Jimmy (and there offspring) It is not hard to understand why many still have hard feelings about what happened to the Native American people back then. But holding on to bitterness forever eventually only hurts YOU in the end. And sometimes taking responsibility for your future (by using the GOOD things one learns from bad situations like that) can truly turn out to be a great thing in the right hands. I guess I am just saying that I HOPE they were able to somehow rise out of the ashes and use the things that made them strong (in spirit).. the things that made them GREAT... to make a better life for themselves in future generations. (And again.. NOT trying to dive down any unwanted rabbit holes.. I am just saying that some Native Americans did succeed and find a better life for themselves and their families over time.. and others were not as able to do that.. for a variety of reasons)

 

 

Hello there, Miss G:

 

I should have said things wouldn't have been brought to a boiling point as quickly. Lance might have agreed to come to terms with the sheepmen, he was on the verge of doing so, until Coolan meddled.

 

That is a good point. He DID have a reasonable side to his nature. I think that Coolan was definitely the fuel on a fire that MIGHT have burned out at a different level had it not been for Coolan's constant presence. The end resutl might still have been a sad one (for Lance) but a lot of lives might have been saved in the end... and that can only be a good thing. I hated to see it all unravel so quickly once there was "no turning back".

 

(and PS: I am with you.. I thought that poor Jimmy was a goner.. THAT was going to be an awufl sight had it played out that way. No matter what his future held for him.. I am glad it did not go that direction)

 

(AND PS some MORE: ha... thanks for mentioning Sgt Rutledge.. it is on my "to do" list for the very near future I HOPE)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Well, I guess I can put my rope back into the freezer now..ha.

 

Thanks Mr. Grey for stopping in and chatting a little Devil's Doorway!

 

Even though I'm a huge Anthony Mann fan, I actually entered my viewing of Devil's Doorway with some trepidation. It was all because of Robert Taylor playing an indian. How could he possibly pull off such a role?

 

You know... sometimes I think about stuff like that... but this time I didn't. For whatver reason it did not really even enter my mind to worry about it. But I do know what you are saying. Sometimes it makes you wonder what folks are thinking casting certain people in roles that are not their natural "ethnicity". But all that considered, I do think Taylor did a good job in this film.

 

It was feeling too "heavyhanded." And the film is this, to a definite degree.

 

It was heavy handed sometimes. But I think it was a good way to demonstrate the "change" that had come to town (in terms of the laws and the newcomers and their whole mindset being different from what he was used to knowing before the war) I really liked the emotional struggle that the people who he had considered "friends" were feeling (especially the sherriff) He did not like the changes he was seeing... and he really hated what his job was forcing him to do.

 

Where the film really turned for me was when Lance and his people use dynamite against the homesteaders.

 

Once he decided to fight.. all bets were off and it was all or nothing.I watched this with the QT and he said the same thing. Once he started it all.. theere was no turning back. So the dynamite was shocking.. but not out of line with what he was doing. IN his mind, it was a war. So if you are going to fight a war.. fight to win. SHOULD he have used it? I don't know. I am thinking from my own point of view and would likley not have made that choice. But he meant to defend his home and he meant to do it all the way. So I can see what led him to do it. And wow.. you are right. It was an eye opening moment.

 

The very end of the film is where I was moved to tears. To see Lance walking to his death in his cavalry uniform and then salute before dying, that did me in. It really struck a chord with me

 

It truly showed the irony of what had happened. He was a hero.. and an outcast all at the same time. A man without a country, more or less. Very emotional, indeed.

 

It's funny, but I was reminded of Night and the City with Devil's Doorway. "Why can't a man just accept things as they are," is what is often asked. Why not just do it the way others say you must do it?

 

Well... that is a big stretch for me. Maybe in the loosest sense of what you are saying I might be able to see a comparison. But I never saw Harry the way you did so I find it really hard to compare his situation (trying to scam people and "make" his way in the world in a "less than above board" manner) to Lance's... a righteous man being denied his right to live in peace and defend his home and family. But it could be that you are seeing it in a "bigger picture" sort of way, so there may be some comparison.

 

As for comparing the two women.... I don't know. I honestly don't see the comparisons there eithere but that may be due more to the fact that enough time has past and I am not as familiar with either woman's career as I should be to recall them well enough to compare them.

 

I liked that Orrie was a new lawyer and that Lance initially walked out on her because she was a woman lawyer. Yet another nice little "civil rights" twist in this very "civil rights" film

 

That was an unexpected (and nicely suprising) twist to the story. It made me think a bit of the two women in The Man From Laramie. Stronger, capable, and not "foo foo" yet still very lovely and "womanly" too.

 

John Alton, the masterful cinematographer, was once again brilliant. Love the look for the film. It's very dark.

 

It was gorgeous. And dark. (but I am w/ Miss G.. it is almost too dark to see sometimes.)

 

Boy, do I ever love Anthony Mann. He rarely ever disappoints. And his westerns are definitely my kind of westerns. The ones I have seen center around a man on a mission, a personal mission. Oftentimes, they become blinded, obsessed by their mission. This makes the character and the story fascinating to me.

 

You are describing the impression I have of his westerns too. I have not seen all of them, but of the ones I have seen... that is how they play for me.

 

Devil's Doorway is now my second favorite Mann film, behind only Raw Deal. That's saying a lot because I'm a huge fan of Mann's westerns

 

I have seen Man of the West (Miss G's fave) but I have not seen Raw Deal (your fave) I will have to check it out and give it a try sometime. It's not a LEONE (ha) so maybe I will be ok!) ha.

 

If I had to pick a fave for Mann.. hmm.. It would likely be The Furies. But after that.. I would say Maybe TMFL or Bend of the River. What can I say.. ha. I am a Stewart gal. ha.

 

Is it me or did Mann have Side Street, Winchester '73, The Furies, and Devil's Doorway ALL come out in 1950? That's remarkable to me

 

Wow.. that is remarkable. He was a busy guy indeed. .

 

And I must say, I love 50s films. There is such great depth and substance to be found in so many of them. For Mann to make such a film like Devil's Doorway in 1950 says a heckuva lot

 

It does make a pretty blatant statement about racial inequality and the way we view certain people or groups in society.

 

One of the things that was really sort of an "eye opener" for me personally was the perspective of WHERE he was fighting (and what for). Most films involving the removal of Native Americans from land center around "reservations" or tribes getting pushed off of one place and taken to another. This was different. He wasn't fighting for some vaguely defined "open range" of land. It was a "settled" ranch. It wasn't so much of a possible "manifest destiny" issue ( as in the settlers were bound to come west sooner or later and that is what happened to the land as the country grew) It was much more clearly defined and easier for a non-native american person (like me) to identify with as a result.

 

That is not to say that a scenario where you end up forcing thousands of people off of a "reservation" is a more "right" way to do things in terms of the way it all was carried out much of the time back then... but this sceanario w/ Lance and his home was (for me) much more easy to relate to.

 

What if the government suddenly said I no longer could live in my home and that the land where I grew up and was raising my family was no longer mine? That is not always a point of view that is as easy to see (maybe) in some westerns (especially when talking about a traveling group of people living on an open "territory" of land... unless of course you are in that traveling group of people).

 

But issues of race aside, almost ANYONE could relate to the feelings Lance and his family were experiencing in the situation they were in. It made it much more personal (at least to me) and gave me an even greater sense of empathy for him.

 

Ok.. I don't know if I am even explaining that all right or not. I guess I am just saying that this particular fight (to protect one's home and way of life) was even easier for me to relate to than it might have been otherwise because it was so much different from some of the other sorts of similar stories involving Native Americans than I have seen in the past.

 

I also wanted to bring up the young boy (I can't recall his character's name because you DID make me wait a few weeks and I am old and forgettful... HA) I love how he fit into the story all the way through but found his role especially moving toward the end of the story. That to me was one of the more emotional aspects of this movie as much as the bit w/ the uniform at the end.

 

Thanks for "darkening" the doorway here, Mr. Grey. (ha) I have been looking forward to the chance to chat on this one for a while now.

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Jun 28, 2010 1:59 AM

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

DD, (is that FrankGrimes' home?)

 

Maybe just his summer one....

 

And I can use a hatpin. Can I get it with a custom hair-trigger, like Paladin's gun?

 

Coming right up!! (anything for you, little darlin'!)

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

Where's Piecemaker with the hatpin

 

RIGHT here... Jackie.. you go ahead and get him w/ the hatpin you have now. (I am going to get one for the Goddess too.. that way we can all have one, ha) He deserves it. And in the meantime I will go sharpen my new evil cane!! (HA! I picked up THAT handy little tool from our chat on Gilda a while back. I figured that rat Mundson won't need it anymore where HE'S going, so we might as well put it to good use ourselves. HA!)

 

And then after that.. I am going to go get the frozen-est rope I can find for Mister "I saw Devil's Doorway and it made me cry". He is way OVERDUE for his ramble, isn't he ladies? So we can let him have a little bit of a jab or two HERE and then we will string him up over there later... not bad for a Sunday afternoon.

 

Let me just check the old arsenal and make sure we are well supplied...

 

Hatpin.. evil cane.. scissors... toaster.. electric griddle... and of course.. the frozen rope. Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah.. Jackie.. you mentioned something about mace, didn't you??

[ROBERT RYAN - The Real Quiet Man]

Hiya Miss G...

 

I caught only portions of this film last night. We started watching it.. but stuff happens.. blah, blah blah. (ha) It was just one of those nights when we had a lot going on.. and the QT was in the mood to "surf" instead of just watch one thing... and I was so busy doing other stuff.. it wouldn't have mattered anyway... SO... I guess what I am saying is.. ha.. the channel go turned a lot, etc.. but we kept coming back to this movie from time to time here and there. And usually when we really stopped and watch was w/ scenes like you mention below:

 

The conflict between Ryan and Aldo Ray was fascinating. I think this is Aldo's best work,

he was terrific. I felt so bad for the Colonel (Robert Keith). He was great the way without

a word he expressed his inner torment.

 

The scenes that stood out for me the most (of the ones I watched) were between Ryan and Ray for sure. OH there was one moment.. when Ryan was telling Ray to do something and Ray was refusing.. .because he did not know who was going to care for the Colonel if he did... and OH the look on the poor man's face as he tried and tried to get the words out... inner torment is a great way to describe it.

 

I hope this comes on again sometime and I can try to sit still in one place long enough to give it the attention it deserves next time. (Did I mention.. stuff happens?) ha.

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

No.....I'm ashamed to say I never told that woman

 

Ha... well.. we all have those "if I could only go back in time and change it" kinda moments.. ha. (I will spare you some of mine until another day) :-)

 

Maybe you made that lady's day. You never know. She might have found all that lost "treasure" and thought she'd been visited by the Popcorn Fairy. Goofier things have happened. ha.

 

At the very least you gave her a "top this" story she is likely still getting mileage out of to this day.. It was the strangest thing.. I once went to the movies and ... HA!!!

 

PS.. sorry to go off track Miss Maven.. here ya go.. Anthony Mann films rock. :-)

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

I am still on the edge of my seat here.. did you rat yourself out (about the popcorn) or let that lady go home w/ a free midnight snack in her hood????????????? Inquiring minds wanna know!! HA!!!!

[Western Movie Rambles]

Thanks for the lovely caps little darlin'! I really am glad you have brought Mr. Hart to chat here lately. I have enjoyed getting to find a new favorite)

 

And PS: I LOVED the part about the bad guy getting dunked over and over again... ha. The fact that he not only had to say "sorry" to the boy... but the DOG.. that was the PERFECT and fitting punishment for the likes of him.. too bad he did not learn his lesson.

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

Your secret is safe w/ me, little darlin'.

 

And PS: I would definitely go w/ the Movieman's suggestion.ha. They are a safer choice for chocolate smuggling than the average candy bar, because they "Melt in your mouth... not in your hands"... or under your jacket either... ha.

[Western Movie Rambles]

Hiya Ms Favell.. and Mr. Movieman too...

 

I am glad you both checked out Tumbleweeds. I enjoyed it a lot, but again I think you have to have the right mindset. it to me really was more of a "Saturday Matinee" style movie... but that to me is what made it fun. There is a lot of action. He really did some VERY impressive horse riding for sure. And some other fancy cowboy skills too (he really WAS a "fast riding, straight shooting, rough and tumble cowboy w/ a soft spot for a pretty gal" kinda guy" ha.)

 

PS: Chris.. that land rush part was to me the lesser portion of the movie. In some respects I liked it a lot (with the older couple especially) but you are right.. there are other films where it is presented much better so I guess I had higher expectations than were fair for this movie's version of it.

 

Mini Spoiler

One other little (very little) criticism too... was the bad guys sure did seem to give up awfully easily at the end.. compared to how ROTTEN and awful they were throughout the rest of the story.. but I might be remembering it wrong.

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

That's a lotta movies without butter on the popcorn

 

OH girlie.. NO butter??? I'd skip it. Go w/ the chocolate candy bar instead. Ha.

 

Sounds like you are going to have quite the film fest!! Enjoy!

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

One of you is nice and the other is cruel!

 

Oh look.. Movieman... he called you nice!! ha. (and I think he misspelled what he called me.. I am sure he meant "one of you is "cool" ha) That is just SO "me" ha. (not)

 

Cruel on the other hand.. ha.. well... only when I HAVE to be...

 

It's made of sawdust!

 

And NOW we know why I have to be...

 

I'm a pinata!

 

Well not yet.. But that's a great idea!! I will go get my rope and string you up.. and I will send Miss G to get a big stick.. and THEN.....

 

Ha.. it IS a party, afterall!!

[RAMBLES Part II]

Thanks for the tip, Ms Cinemafan!

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

CONGRATS Mr. 9,000!!!!!

 

 

Ha... the end of the world indeed... at least for Mr Saurkraut. HA... (more cake for the rest of us!)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Good golly, Mr. Movieman..

 

You are far from SLACKING. (I mean.. do the words "Programming Challenge ring any bells?? ha. You've been a busy guy! I mean it is not like you are the SHIFTLESS one around here.. HA!)

 

Glad you got to see this one all the way through.

 

What was interesting and troubling at the same time was the lengths a town would go to destroy not only a man but a town's faith

 

That part of the movie actually reminded me a bit of the town in a book by Frank Peretti called The Oath... one of the most creepy books I ever read (but a great allegory about how sin can take over and consume a human heart) ANYWAY I remember thinking that as I was watching it all play out.

 

(And PS: the book is NOTHING like this film at all, by the way... except in the early part of the story where the entire town.. I think every single citizen except the preacher, has the mindset that the folks in Hell's Hinges.. And OH do they all pay a price for it in the end.. (did I mention it was a creepy book, ha.. but a VERY good story) And you are right.. Troubling is a great word for it.

 

At any rate.. that is what I remember thinking about this part of the story as I was watching.

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

I'll have to find the discussion on the film and look to see what has been said. Was it in "Rambles"

 

Ah HA!! You must have heard me sneaking up to HANG you.. ha. I don't know much about past chats.. I mean the way back past.. but recently Miss G and I brought this one up.. and YES.. it was in Western Rambles. Look for the post where I said.. wake me up when you SHOW up.. ha.

[MANN?S BEST FRIEND...IS HIS MOVIES]

I cried at the end of it.

 

What??? You watched it and it made you cry... and that's IT???? You're not getting off THAT easy... You've been holding out on us GREY DUDE. The Goddess and I called you out on that movie weeks ago.. and just NOW you are saying this?? ha. (oh wait.. just now you WATCHED it.... ok... I see that now.)

 

ANYWAY.... go get back to my original question here.... what ELSE do you have to say about it, HMMMMMM??? Inquiring minds wanna know.

 

PS: Miss Maven.. I am w/ some of the other voices here... The Furies seems to be to me the "Maven" (based only on things you have said to me in the past about your likes and dislikes, etc) But I am not as up on all my "Mann" movies as others here, so I am no authority. (And the Grey Guy is right... Devil's Doorway is an excellent movie. Though it's not quite as "Maven-ish"... you may really like the storyline. It really was a powerful film) Also agree w/ the suggestion for Man of the West.. it is probably the more "Westerny" of the three.. but a very good conflict for Coop's character. I really liked it a lot.

 

I also love all the Stewart Western's being mentioned... except I am not a big "Winchester 73" fan.. I likely just need to watch it again. Though a good performance by Stewart, (a very "gritty" and dark sort of Jimmy, as I recall) it was just not one that I was partial to when I saw it years ago. But I know I am very much in the minority on that... most folks I have talked w/ really like it.

[RAMBLES Part II]

Nice and calm and civil.

 

That's just because there hasn't been any trouble from the Shadow Man, lately. ha. We haven't had us a good old fashioned knock down drag out in EVER so long. ha. Hey.. between him and that Mad Hat guy... we've been OVERDUE for a good hangin'. Maybe I better go check my rope supply just in case that "calm before the storm" wears off. Ha.