rohanaka

How DO you do, Mr Grey... (ya little thrill seeking JUNKIE) ha. Everything else that is going on in the first two acts really doesn't interest me. There is no real conflict. Just about everything is internalized with the exception of maybe a little, here and there. The only other character that interests me is Collingwood (George O'Brien). What they do at the outpost isn't interesting to me, Ok... ha. we really are at a point where this is all more or less boiling down to (as Miss G said, I think) a matter of personal taste. (or was it preference). ANYWAY... and I repeat what I said last night... ha.. what is "interesting and fascinating (to use your description) to ME... does not always have to be "exciting" all the time for me to enjoy it... BECAUSE it is "interesting and fascinating" ha. Do I need everything to be action? Not at all. I love 12 Angry Men and Inherit the Wind. They are not action films full of excitement. But I find more conflict, controntation, and humor in is those films, so there is something going on. I'm far from bored. But, I would never say to someone, "you need to watch Inherit the Wind, it's exciting!" It's not "exciting." Ok... so you are saying (I THINK) that you can live without the "rock'em sock'em robot-like stuff" so long as everybody spends the whole movie just sitting (or standing) around yelling at each other?? You still want people to FIGHT. (ha) Because 90% of both of those movies...ha.. that is what is going on.. HA. No... I am kidding... KIDDING!!!! (all 12AM and ITW fans SIT down..ha) I think (maybe) I am getting more of a piece of the puzzle here.. And this conversation has been beneficial in that it is helping me understand another little bit of the "mystery" that IS Frank Grimes.. ha. I think you are saying that while you like the movie (as a whole) you just wanted it to "move on' and get to the good part (the action) ... and that all the "other stuff" was either too "fluffy" or too mundane to interest you. And then YES... that is going to be a matter of personal taste... because EVERYBODY has their own idea about what makes a movie interesting, fascinating, and/or exciting. Thank you! I love character studies and the examination of people, but I would never tell others that this is "exciting. Well it all depends. ha. Some people find PAINT DRYING exciting.. ha. So it might depend on who I was talking to. ha. But really.. my point is that I think you are equating "exciting" with more valuable or enjoyable, maybe... at least with Ft Apache... but to me... I think it is enjoyable and valuable as it is. And PS: "Exciting" is not a word I might use in describing Ft Apache either... but leaving it out of the description doesn't harm the film in anyway.. And that's what I've said! I LIKE Fort Apache... because the end saves it. I also like Fonda's performance and what I feel about blind authority and the "book." And I can like things in a film yet still not like the film. And see... I don't think the movie needed the action at the end to "save it" because to me.. it did not need to be saved. I think the whole film (including the action at the end) is able to stand on it's own. I think it is very well put together and is an excellent example of one of John Ford's finer western/military/character study type films. I did not need to rely just on the excitement factor of the story to like the story... and for whatever reason... at least in this film.. you did. But that is because we are different people... and we are looking at this thing from two completely different points of view, each from our own perspective and each with our own expectations for the film. I think our biggest issue here... really... is just those two words... "perspective" and "expectation". Our differences of opinion are not about what the movie is (in terms of substance, maybe) but more about what we VALUED in the film and what we wanted to see. And THAT is always going to be a personal thing... because.. as I am sure folks are starting to get sick of hearing me say..ha.. (but I will say again) Movies are NOTHING if not subjective... We are not going to all like the same things... and even if we do... we are not going to like them in the same way or for the same reason... wouldn't it be a BORING and un-EXCITING world if we did??? 2001: A Space Odyssey is a film that mesmerizes me. OH my golly... ha. Talk about a BORING movie.. HA!!! If I cannot come to understand how others (most) would find it to be boring and stupid, I'm being blind and stubborn... like Thursday. Now I can speak of how I find the visuals and silence of the film to be exciting and thrilling, but most everyone else is going to shrug their shoulders and say, "it's boring as heck." And guess what? They are right. And I would certainly NOT say it's an "exciting" film. Far from it Now see.. YOU have just taken a film that proves my point EXACTLY.. that has to be one of the most subjecitve movies ever made. WHAT the heck was it about??? WHAT the heck is the big deal??? A monkey discovers how to use a "tool" and jumps up and down for ten minutes and with a bunch of other monkeys.. ha.. and then there is a big floating rock out in space.. The End. HA!!! (kidding... only KIDDING!!!!!) Anyway... That film is a VERY good example of what I am talking about. Each person who views it has to do so from their own perspective.. and HOW they view it will reall determine whether they liked it or not. And he's right! The first two acts of Fort Apache are meant to be boring... except the love story. That could have been and should have been more exciting, but it just wasn't... to me. But when you are watching anality, it's not going to be exciting. Thursday is draining the excitement from the film and life. He's a miserable man. Ford succeeds in showing us such a man and the end he delivers is arguably the best of all Ford films Wow.. you are hard to please.. ha. Again... to me.. all the stuff you found boring about the beginning... I really liked. But that is because I am not defining "BORING" as the lack of "EXCITEMENT"... if it interests me... and I am fascinated by it (you should NOT have given me those two words..ha) I am NOT going to find it BORING. Golly I would have hated to try to entertain you as a little kid.. ha. I can just hear it now. "Aunt Ro... I want a pony and a baseball bat... and give me some video games and let's make a volcano on the kitchen table... and OH... How about taking me to the carnival so I can ride the roller coaster, and while you are at it.. can you tap dance for me and then stand on your head and whistle dixie????? I want to be interested and fascinated... BUT I want excitement TOO!!" ha. GOOD GRIEF. I would have said... get over it kid.. go read a book!! (ha) A small discussion in a coach ride is exciting?! Women! NO... No, no, no, no no!!! But is WAS intersting and FASCINATING!!!

Hello Mr Sawdust and Saur Kraut.... I agree with everything you wrote. I find Thursday's personality and his interraction with this subordinates to be interesting and fascinating but it's not exciting to me. You are cracking me up. Ha. (and you likely have no idea why..ha but let me try to explain.. ha) Now I have to confess... I find your "interesting and fascinating, but not exciting" comment very helpful... especially when coupled with.... I'm pretty much equating excitement with action Ok... I can live with that. .. but I am having trouble understanding why that is a source of complaint.... because it is not "action packed" is it less than what you want it to be? Does it have to be action all the time for a story to really appeal to you? I don't think so... but (If I am reading you correctly) I think you are saying that you prefer the "unfolding" of the characters to happen while all the action is going on too. (similar to The Horse Soldiers). We can look at this from a lot of different angles here, but it is really going to come down to perspective. I think Ft Apache is not supposed to be action driven like The Horse Soldiers was... because THAT film is about the long journey they have to go through and all the conflict that arises out of them having to take Hannah (and her maid) along with them. Ft Apache stays in one place (more or less) for most of the first part of the movie... so we get to see the day to day of "life on the Fort" and the training of the men, and the management style of the man in charge and those who report directly to him. And we get to see the conflicts that arise out of the different schools of thought that all the various men in leadership have. So.. in one way.. you are right.. there is NOT a lot of "action"... it is more about getting to know the characters, laying that groundwork we've been talking about, and the looking ahead at the enevitable end of things... Going off or YOUR definition of "exciting".. it likely is NOT that exciting a film (at least until the end). But I think (ha.. to borrow from a COMPLETELY different movie here..ha) what we have here is failure to communicate. Ha. Because, for me, the fact that it is "interesting and fascinating".... means that it doesn't HAVE to be action packed. Not all films are going to be not stop action and I KNOW you well enough to know that you would agree that this is OK. So what we are left here with REALLY.. are just basically a couple of things... A) a difference of perspective on the need for "action" in the story and a difference of expectations... as far as what we both wanted to see happen in the plot. And this is totally cracking me up.. ha.. because... you are reminding me of... THE QT (of all people..ha) He uses almost the same argument as you sometimes when we are talking about films... only instead of saying the movie wasn't "exciting".. he uses the OPPOSITE word and would say... (if he shared your view) that the film was "boring". And he and I used to go ROUND AND ROUND, because he would tell me in one breath that he LIKED a movie... and then in the next sentence he'd say how BORING it was..ha. It used to make me nutso trying to figure him out.. ha. A perfect example... He LOVES the film Bridge on the River Kwai... we talk about it every so often.. and he has watched it many, many times. He thinks it is a VERY good story.. and thoroughly enjoys all the intricate details and conflicts between all the different characters (and we go around here saying "MADNESS" all the time..ha. It is one of his favorite movie quotes ever. ha. Even the kidling will say it.. and she has NO idea why.. HA!) But if you ask him to tell you what he THINKS of the movie.. the first thing you will get out of him is that he thinks a lot of it is BORING. ha.. You men. You have a language all your own.. HA! Anyway.. after years and YEARS of movie chats (and debates) with him... I have figured out that when he was saying BORING... what he really meant was... "not full of action... not "exciting".... to use YOUR word. But he will also tell you that some movies are meant to be "boring" and that "excitiment" would not be the best way to tell the story. So... now... having said all that.... can I answer THIS???? What are the two most exciting moments of Fort Apache to you... prior to Cochise I don't know. but I CAN tell you... that the beginning of the film is one of my most favorite portions of the whole movie. I LOVE the interraction between Thursday and his daughter in the stage on the way to the Fort... the very opening scenes... You get to see how POMPOUS a jerk he is (and how sweet and endearing she is.... and also how VERY much she loves to "dote" on him and how much he believes it is his due.) You more or less get to know almost everything you need to know about both of them from the very beginning... But it doesn't stop there... it just keeps going and going.. I love how all the characters are introduced.. one at at time.. or in small groups.... until Thursday arrives and interrupts the big party.. and Thursday says something like... "I take it this party is not in my honor" and the Duke tells him it is a birthday party... for another general... General Washington... (you know.. Father of the country... hero of American History.. First president of the United States... that guy) and Thursday is both "put in his place" and yet... arrogant enough to think (you can read his mind) that the party should have been for him ANYWAY. Now.. ok.. those early scenes are not "exciting" but I like them.. they lay some really excellent framework... and the story just continues to build from there... so to me.. the movie is not "less" entertaining.. due to lack of "action". Maybe this all will only make sense to me..ha. But I just think that sometimes a film doesn't NEED a lot of "action" to tell the story... and sometimes the action DRIVES the story... and other times... you get a mixture of both... or something in between.... and it's all good. I am more about the characters and what motivates them... and why they do what they do... and I know YOU are too sometimes... so I say... excitement?? Phooey. ha. Give me "boring" now and then... so long as the story is a good one and I can get into the characters.

I just don't find anything in the first two acts of Fort Apache to be exciting or thrilling. Nothing really grabs me... other than Fonda's performance. His "Thursday" is all that matters to me. He's compelling, but not in an exciting or thrilling way. We're basically being set up for a fantastic implosion. And I think the ending resonates so strongly because of what we come to know of Thursday and his men in the first two acts, so there is a pay-off. There is a pay off for sure... but it may be a matter of perspective as to what a person thinks of the events leading up to it. In some ways, it is almost like two seperate stories (at the beginning) You have the Duke.. and the men (and even the women) and all their "stories".. and then you have Thursday and the men (and yes the women..ha) ... and all of HIS story... events all happening at the same time.. but from two different angles, in a way. You could take Thursday competely out of the picture and have a nice little cavalry movie with some comedy and romance thrown in for good measure along with chasing down the indians. OR.. you could focus entirely on Thursday and have it be a story that is completly about a bull headed ego maniac and one of the most arrogant and foolish plans a military leader could devise. But in Ft Apache.. you get both.. and it does blend together eventually. (in terms of making one complete story). And again, it could come down to perspective how well you think that all works. But I think (you and others have said this already) the early part of the story really is a lot about laying the groundwork, so to me.. the parts you like less are very necessary. (It's the "simmer" of the pot, if you will... or better yet... the "slow burn" you mention to get to the red hot flames) And I am not even really saying this just to describe the film (and more specifically Thursday's fatal error at the end of it) But what I am saying... is that it might be that there is a level of patience required to really get the full benefit from the two sides of the story when they all come together. This is one of those stories you have to "wait for" in a way. (although I personally think there is PLENTY to like and enjoy all the way through) But because you do have to WAIT for the "fantastic implosion"... it is a process... and it may well seem to some like nothing much stands out for a while... but then there is that implosion. And GEE wasn't it worth the wait. Or to go back to my "simmer" analogy... don't try to lift the lid too early on the big kettle, Grey Dude... the Saur Kraut is not quite ready yet. ha. You won't get the "full" benefit of all the flavors mixing together if you try to taste the kraut too soon. It's all about the process. By the time the Duke gets to HIS maximum capacity for putting up with Thursday.. and by the time Thursday has made all the bad choices he does at the end of the story... the whole "kitchen" is full of the smell of kraut.. and we totally understand why.. and how... Thursday's downfall happens as a result. There is no denying it, now that we have just seen everyone in the pot, simmering to a boil all throughout the entire film laying the groundwork for again.. what I believe had to be one of the most arrogant and foolish plans a military leader could devise. Thursday wanted to prove himself and have his big moment in the sun... and sadly he got it.. the sun.. AND a bunch of buzzards circling overhead.

Woo Hoo... now THAT was a fun read, Miss Maven. My golly it was like reliving all the best parts of that movie all over again. Wowsa. :-) Just the ordering of dinner by these two hitmen/henchmen was contentious. Every time I heard the phrase ?bright boy? I cringed. Oh my gosh.. when they started ordering everybody around... asking them for their names and telling them what to do.. ha. ALL before they ever even SHOWED a gun.. oh me..I was LIVID. (They kept saying "what's your name... and I shouted back... "Who wants to know" ha. I'd have lasted about 10 seconds in there before they'd have blown my head off.. ha. But GEE they were making me mad.ha) And PS.. you were NOT alone in catching the waiter's kindess to the cook w/ the glass of water.. you could tell he really cared about that guy.. It really said a lot about their friendship. I liked that part a lot. The burial of Ole was sad, and the scene made me think of something from an old Frankenstein movie. Was that a painted backdrop of the clouds? It was moody shot It was a moody shto.. and it did look like a painting.. I really thought it was beautiful and tragic, all at the same time. love how Virginia Christine is revealed in the movie. Wasn't she something? I wanted her to have a bit more time on screen as well. The scene you bring up where she realizes "the ship had sailed" was VERY well put together. You could totally read her mind (even if she had not been narrating the flashback) *Don?t ask a dying man to lie his soul into hell!!?* I think that is one of the greatest lines in movies. And yes, I felt sorry for her Oh wow... it WAS a great line.. and I can't believe I am saying this (after the long drawn out Tony and Tom chat I had w/ the Grey Dude..ha) But you are a lot nicer than I am because I did NOT feel sorry for her!! Not one bit. I was glad, so very glad... so very, very glad she was getting what she deserved. HA!! (Did I mention I was glad?) ha. I repeat what I said at the beginning of all this last night.. because it LITERALLY was my first thought after the end of the film.. Kitty is innocent! Kitty is INNOCENT?????? HA!! Kitty is TOAST!!! (and I say again.. now THAT was a happy ending!!) Thanks Miss Maven for that VERY excellent "Walk" on the Noir Side... you are quite the "ambler", kid. :-) OH and PS.. thanks for bringing up Charleston too... I loved his addition to the whole story.. he did sort of remind you of the little guy from TSSR) Edited by: rohanaka on Feb 26, 2010 12:37 PM

Hi Ms Cinemafan.. The Swede seemed even dumber (at times) than DumDum. Maybe it was all those fights he was in He DID seem a few bricks shy, so to speak, sometimes. I think it might have been due in part to the fact that he was WAY so very WAY out of his element. I don't think he was a bad guy... but he was spending a LOT of time hanging out with the bad guys... and making some VERY bad choices.... and it was because of Kitty... probably almost totally because of her. You are right. he DID fall hard for her.. did you see the look on his face when he walked in to that room after getting out of prison??? (and PS... he had only BEEN in prison because he had lied to protect HER!!) And she more or less had totally blown him off and completely ignored him the whole time he was away.. but still... when he walked in and saw her sitting there, tight sweater and all.. OH my.. ha. I had to laugh... because he had one of those "looney tune" cartoon moments..ha. His eyes bugged out of his head and his chin just about dropped off and his tongue all but flopped out of his mouth.. ha. All that was missing was steam coming out of his ears and some sort of loud whistle sound effects. Anyway... ha.. you have it right... the way she had him hooked.. he was dumber than a box of rocks. PS... Burt's voice and hair were amazing THAT is too true.... and that is yet another piece of the why I am not too big on Burt puzzle.... USUALLY... his voice and hair are... I don't know... PERFECT. And in this movie.. they had good days and bad.. His voice and hair both... He would go from.. rumpled, and crumpled, to cool and polished, back to rumpled and crumpled again... I liked it!! :-) Edited by: rohanaka on Feb 26, 2010 11:52 AM

Here is my favorite George song That one's a beauty...

I have a lot of dirt to hide! You mean there is even MORE dirt than we have seen already???????????????

PS: Ms Favell.... I meant to comment on this earlier.. but got too busy making fun of the Grey Guy and forgot.. ha.. You know I love John Wayne, and I know he can be a subtle and fascinating actor... but to make the point I wanted to make, and because I got irritated, I had to create a clearcut analogy that he could understand. I wanted to hit him over the head with a little of his own medicine, or hammer if you will. But a hammer can be wielded with the utmost grace and finesse.... it makes a strong connection, and people notice when you are using one. So I don't think it is so far off from Wayne himself. I certainly didn't mean it as a bad thing in any way at all. YOU do not have to make a case for me about your feelings for the Duke, little Missy.. I still remember your posts on They Were Expendable. But the further you have taken the "hammer" analogy.. the better I am liking it... Michealangelo used a hammer too.. ha. So I do see how it could be more than one perspective on hammering that you were talking about... (and GEE.. you can accomplish a lot.. ha.. even with a LITTLE hammering... here and there... did you ever see The Shawshank Redemption?? Ha) Anyway.. no worries, kid. I know you are a Duke fan... I think you did a fine job of comparisons between him and Ben. Oh, I can hear Mr. Ford now, bellowing loud enough for people in the next forum to hear, "so you think you know HOW TO DIRECT THE PICTURE? Go ahead. WE"LL ALL stand here and wait while you figure out what you want to do different..... " and then he would level his steely gaze on me and wait while I crumbled to dust on the floor. HA!! NO doubt.. :-) I wouldn't even make it to the floor.. ha. I'd just "evaporate" on the spot. ha.

Y'all are just jealous of my apron! Never.. ha. Your apron is too dingy GREY. (I like mine crisp and WHITE)

Hey there little gal, have the feeling you found stuff in it I did not I bet I didn't.. you and Jackie are the two with the sharp eyes for stuff... but gee.. I DID find a lot to like about the story as a whole.. it really reeled me in right from the beginning... When those two thugs came in that diner.. I KNEW they were thugs.. I KNEW they were trouble.. I just wasn't sure WHO or WHAT or HOW it would all come together. (mini spoiler) Wasn't that a tense moment w/ those three poor guys taken hostage like that... I really did not expect them to walk away... wow. the movie seems to turn into a mystery/crime solver story and away from about character conflicts, at least for a while. At first I had a hard time finding the insurance guy believable.. I wish he had been a "private eye" or maybe a detective... As an insurance guy, he was too much of a "cop" wannabe.. ha I thought.. MOST guys in his job would just figure out if there was a claim... find the beneficiary.. and move on... the fact that he got so involved in figuring it out seemed a stretch.. until he added the whole "I want to find the money from the robbery too, since we insure the hat company as well" part) THEN I was able to sit back and give him more credibility. So many people talk about Ole, whereas I would have preferred they had cut back a little on that and showed more (whenever they flashed back and let us see what Burt did, it was so much stronger and more interesting), but who am I to say. No.. I think you are right.. at least for the most part. Movies that rely so heavily on flashback to tell the story don't usually work too well for me... (unless it is done like TMWSLV... where the WHOLE story more or less gets told during one big long flashback) But having said that.. I did sort of just "go with it" and it became less and less of an issue as the story went along. (I am already with you on Burt. When I first saw the movie years ago, I was disappointed a bit in him, I was expecting some big moment from him that never came. Now I appreciate his character for what it is and his performance, too. His first starring role.) I was really impressed with him in this film (and again.. that is saying something for me) I do wish he'd have gotten a "big moment" in the story.. but then again... maybe that was the beginning.. I thought when he was lying on that bed.. half hidden in the shadows... first talking to his friend, and then just WAITING for those guys to show up.. wow.. even though he did not have a lot of dialogue.. I thought that was quite a moment. She really was, when she was laughing and talking sweet it seemed like a total act. When she was greedy or mean, she was real. Whoa baby was she evil. At the very first meeting (where she is singing and then sort of standing there (knowing all along that Burt was behind her... but NEVER acknowledging him... you could tell she had him RIGHT where she wanted him. I knew EVERYTHING about her just from that moment in the story.... and my impression of her never changed.. even though it LOOKED like it should have for a while.. OH golly. And you are right.. ha. She WAS real when she was greedy and mean... real greedy and real mean. CineMaven is the film maker here, I wonder how she feels about it I hope she (and others) will tell us.. Oh Miss MAVEN????????? :-) And I hope YOU have some more to say TOO little Missy. :-) PS... I meant to mention the music... I really like how it was used in this film. (especially the shoot out at the restaurant near the end) And our beloved Mr. Osborne came on after the movie.. and confirmed my suspicions..ha. If I am remembering right, he said the same guy that composed the music for Dragnet worked on this film too.. and that fits because I thought the music (in the scene I just mentioned) sounded VERY familiar.. ha. It was like a "variation on a theme". ha. But you know... I think I liked this version better... it was more "orchestral" and yet still all intense and "in your face" all at the same time. Edited by: rohanaka on Feb 26, 2010 1:52 AM

it should go well with saurkraut and sawdust Ha.... I just thought of something.. we should give the GREY dude the steak that fell on the floor.. ha. Didn't they used to have sawdust floors back then??? HA!!!!! PS: folks... thanks for the comments on my "folk art" thoughts... it was Jackie that got me to thinking "artistically."

PS Miss Maven.. I have seen that one before too. I am not sure but I think it may have been posted somewhere by someone on the message board before... but still enjoyed seeing it again. Always good for a smile. Thanks, kiddo.

Fred... very sorry for you loss.. I hope you and your family are doing alright.

If you're serving from the MWSLV menu.. I want the steak that did NOT go on the floor please... and a side of "sweet" and perhaps some of the cheese. (do you have Ford Lite in the six pack?? I am a teetotaler.. so ... nah.. I won't DRINK it.. BUT... I hear they make great collector's items... It comes in those reusable jelly jars w/ images of all the characters that get shown at the end of WM and TQM on the side) HA!!!

Ok.. I'm back.. (had to get the kidling all settled in... that time of night, don't ya know.. ha) She's a cocococold hearted...sssssssnake...look into her eyes OH my golly, little gal... she really was just a snake in a tight sweater wasn't she?? Whoa Nelly, what a mean woman she was. Finally.. a Burt Lancaster film that I LIKED him in.. ha. I am not a big fan of his... and I HAVE tried a few of his films... but he just seems so "over the top" to me... but not this time... maybe because he was still a pup... (a gorgeous hunk of a pup, I might add..ha) Anyway.. I thought he did a fine job. I actually wish he had had a bit MORE time on screen. (so that IS saying a lot about how much I liked him in this film) You are right.. the film did get a bit slower as it went on.. I think the earlier scenes (overall) had a lot more tension.. but I think in general.. I have to say I liked this film a lot. I am glad to get a chance to see it... (thanks to YOU, little missy.... before your recommendation, I had every intention of passing this one up... due to the whole "I'm not big on Burt" angle.. ha. I am glad I gave it a chance)

95 "Tried to see how many points it was worth to get me with the door, huh???? Well you messed with the wrong pedestrian THIS time, buddy...."

Anyone else? Ha... Miss G.. I beat you to the post!! ha. I'll be back with more later... :-)

"Kitty is innocent!" Kitty is INNOCENT ??? HA!!!! Kitty is TOAST!!!!!!! (now THAT was a happy ending!!! Frank Grimes must HATE this movie...)

figured I was doomed Ha... well... from the looks of things.. ha... it is a good thing you and Jackie got to some common ground.. your doom was about to be imminent.. ha. (PS thanks for the Gold star, by the way.. ha. Money has been tight this year already.. I can melt it down and pay MAYBE pay the light bill with it..ha.) RO: It is not so much a western but rather almost a form of folk art FG: I completely agree. And that kind of art doesn't sell with me, usually. It's too bland Oh no... Folk art is anything but bland... it is full of rich and intricate design and lots of texture and detail... and usually very personal... but also... very "folksey".. ha. (hence the name..ha) Now I know you think the characters are "flatter" in WM and in one way.. they are... so you might argue with me (and you have w/ Jackie) that there are not "intricate" designs in the characters or the story so why would I use this example? But if you look at this film more like a painting... or a piece of art... OR... maybe even more appropriately a "song" some aspects of it DO stand out more than others. But to me... it is more about the "whole" than the individual pieces. And to use the "song" analogy... it is like a concert... and sometimes the tune is playing loudly.. and you get more insight on the BIG picture in general overall... and sometimes the tune gets softer (or maybe you only hear one instrument at a time) and it draws you in a little closer... even if only for a moment. You won't necessarily hear a LOT of any one theme (or solos) played over and over in this film (although much of it DOES center around Ben and Dru... and a few others) and each part gets to be played indivdually now and then... but it is more of a collection about all of them together.... and is still good to listen to. (And I am speaking figuratively now... about the movie itself.. not necessarily about the actual music... which I DID enjoy too) And PS... I don't expect you to change your mind here.. ha. We all won't always agree... I can't agree with you about your thought on Wagon Master (or.. some of what Jackie has even said about Stagecoach.. ha) But I can understand your points of view... and I say this because I just spent several days somewhere else blabbing on and on about why I was not too fond of two movies that MANY people on here would list either near (or at ) the top of their favorite list. (and am grateful nobody decided to hit me with a brick..ha.. at least not YET anyway) I have said this many times.... and it bears repeating... movies are nothing if not subjective. And different people like different things.... and at the end of the day when all is said and done, everbody has their own expectations about what they THINK a film should have been or is.... and what they enjoyed (or loved) or did NOT enjoy (or they were not "too KEEN"...ha) about. And that is the beauty of this place... (that and the fact that we can slap you around a bit when you are WRONG SO VERY WRONG, sir) HA!!!! (reeled you in, there didn't I??) ha. (and PS: Ms Favell... I don't know if I can completely give myself over to your "hammer" analogy re: The Duke.. but I DO agree about your needle comment re: our beloved Ben... very good way to make your point, young'un) PS: Mr Movieman: One thing that strikes me about "Wagon Master" is it appears to be a film Ford wanted to do for the love of doing it. I think it also shows in "The Quiet Man." I think some films he makes because he is making a statement or it needs to be a big film (Ft. Apache.) It is not a film to fill a need. (Rio Grande.) Great films both but the approach is different A perfect way to say it sir. Now see.. YOU know how to make your point in one paragraph or LESS.... ha. (me... I am too "blabbishly challenged" to be able to keep it so succint. ha)

He IS a brunette.. ha. And what's not to love... (my fave pic you posted is that one that is two spots below him and the kitty cat.. it looks like he is in a studio... has he really been gone that long? Wow. Here is my fave George song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6tV11acSRk Oh gee.. just looking at all the photos in that youtube... they're ALL brunettes.... ha. :-)

You...."HATE" (in all caps)...the ending???? Okay, it was just me and Butterscotch who were ready to lynch you, now Kathy will be here soon with the frozen ropes April... there isn't a rope COLD enough for such an atrocity as THIS. For PITY'S sake what a mess. Now he can say he HATES chunky cut up veggies. He can say he HATES to eat anything that does not STINK to high heaven of Saur Kraut and Sawdust.... good golly.. he can even say he hates McLintock... (ha... but we ALL know he is fudging on that one) But to say he HATES the ending to what is perhaps the GREATEST film ever to grace the screen in all moviedom??? (sorry Jackie.. ha. I love WM and all... but... ) ha. I think he is just YANKING our chain here to see how worked up he can get us.. He is an instigator of the worst kind. He WANTS us to get all mad at him for stuff like THIS so he can distract us from all his REAL wrong headedness in OTHER areas. ha. But the TRUTH of the matter is... his REAL feelings for the end of TQM are far less inflammatory and controversial. He may not have LOVED the ending... (wrongheaded thinker that he is.. ha) but HATE???? I say NO. How do I know THIS????? Let the GREY one (oh Master of Duplicity and Chain Yanking) speak for HIMSELF. When I read all this tonight... I decided to check out his statement to refresh my memory... because I was SURE if he had ever said he HATED any part of such a WONDERFUL piece of cinematic majesty as THE QUIET MAN, I would have remembered it. (And PS... it TOOK me some looking to find it by the way... but I DID manage to find what I was looking for) WAY back on October 24th, 2008 at 5:47 PM (buried DEEP within the treasure trove that is the beloved and revered RAMBLES SR. thread) Frank Grimes wrote: *I wasn't too keen on the ending. It was a little too goofy for me* Ok... he thought it was a little "goofy" He wasn't too KEEN on it... but HATE???? I don't think so. Let the record show that the "H" word is NO where to be found. I say again.. "chain yanker" ha. (We are WISE to your ways Mr. Grey) And PS.... the end to Wagon Master is a GOOD way to show the "optimism" that Miss G and Jackie both have mentioned. It shows the expectation and enthusiasm of reaching a "promised land" so to speak... an answer to prayer... a moment of faith realized and rewarded for some.. and perhaps faith found for others... or maybe just "hope" found, instead. Either way... it is not fair to compare the end of this film to other westerns. It is not so much a western but rather almost a form of folk art in a way... a story about a "pilgrimage" that happens to take place in the west... at least in my mind anyway... At any rate... I know you like to say that you are Mr. "I like messy endings and hate happiness" ha. BUT... I just discoved YESTERDAY that THAT is a bit of "chain yanking" on your part as well... So don't MAKE me have to go do another copy and paste again, mister. Oh good golly... HATE indeed... I was being dramatic. OH SURE... look at him trying to back peddle already.. you knew I was coming to get you, didn't you???? Edited by: rohanaka on Feb 25, 2010 1:47 AM

Oh my gosh, my golly... Well done, Ms Favell... The film moves like a bright, beautiful sparkling stream in the sunlight. It flows along like a river past the little problems and dalliances of the cast of characters. It pools and eddies, only to flow along stronger for each rock or pebble they encounter on the way. It flows on inexorably to it's destination Little Scotchie and Miss G have said it best: Poetry... Literature. (no "blabbage" to be found ANYWHERE.) :-) Just some lovely, heartfelt, and well written emotion. (and also.. as always... your way with the screencaps to bring out your points as you go along... very well done.) Thanks very much for sharing this with us. I am so glad to see this film getting the attention it has deserved this past year or so... and now to see this added to it all... another "jewel" in its crown.... a "bright beautiful sparkling" one at that. :-) I say again, my friend, well done.

(Okay, okay...what the heck IS a dale?) Ha... your guess is a good as mine, young'un. ha. Pick one: ha.

Hello, my DEAR Grey Guy And you should know I'm being tough on you because, well, I like being tough on you. I like that you push me back I DO know it. You keep me on my "muddy" toes. ha. And I like being tough on you too, sir. ha. And I am glad you like me to push back.. ha. You are fun to push around... but you are NO pushover. You always present your case in a well thought out way (despite all your wrongheadedness).. ha.. (ok.. that last bit was just me being tough on you.. ha) You're no shrinking violet. More like a shrieking one Ha.. I WOULD give you grief about calling me a name like that.. but with the kind of weather we've been having lately.. by golly a flower is a flower.. ha.(So I will take it as a compliment. HA!) You know, the value of discussions like this, for me, is that you (and others) make me think. Sometimes I'm pushed to think about something I think I know and sometimes it's about something I didn't even consider. I like that. Well we have nothing to argue about THERE my ramblin' friend. That is one of the things I value about all this blabbing too. ha. I do enjoy a good gab and I like it when all the various ideas can be laid on the table (WITHOUT the bloodbath part, ha) and everybody can come away with maybe a little different perspective... even if they still hold on to the one they started with too. For example, I was just thinking, how would I feel if my daughter told me, "Dad, I'm in love with a married man"? My answer: I wouldn't like it... one bit And there you have it. It IS a lot to think about, when you stop and think about it. And for whatever reason.. that is all I seemed to think about once this story got started... (Not so much of the "I think adultery is wrong" this time... but more "I don't think adultery is going to make Charlotte (or Jerry that matter) really happy at the end of the day) I fully respect marriage. So, I actually come down on your side when it comes to the rights and wrongs of love. This makes Now, Voyager all the more fascinating to me. It goes against my beliefs, yet I found it wonderful. Remarkable. And see.. I said this yesterday, but I think that is how Now Voyager was maybe intended to be viewed... more about the individual people and their plight... (especially Charlotte's journy OUT of her old self and into the new) and not so much as a "glorification" of an affair. And I really don't see it as "glorified" adultery... but the fact remains that IS what this story ends up with at the end of the day... we are supposed to be happy for both these people (and Tina too) that they have found one another and are going to go for whatever happiness they can finally have together... But I guess what it boils down to is... I was unbable to do this personally because I was not in agreement that it really WAS going to lead to their ulitmate happiness. (especially not Charlotte's) I think you are right.. She IS going to reach a point someday where it is NOT enough to only get PART of Jerry's life... (or even Tina's for that matter) and it will become harder and harder for her to accept this, the longer she is in that relationship. So again, I am trying to say is that I just had to hard a time forgetting all that to like the story as much as I WISHED I could. (and PS Miss G:) Not so lonely. When it comes to the adultery angle, I am with you. It is like Maven and Frank said, the movie really messes with our emotions and that's what I get caught up in, instead of the real issue at hand which you are right not to lose sight of. Maybe I want to believe what the poet said, that it is still better for Charlotte to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. She certainly shows herself to have become a better or happier person because of the encounter and she truly does not want to rob another woman of her husband and security (I won't say "happiness" because the wife evidently is one who takes pleasure from unhappiness). I was trying to explain yesterday to Miss Maven how I tend to take movies too personally sometimes. I ALWAYS think of the "what if's" (like the Grey Guy's scenario w/ a daughter for instance) Or at least I usually do. It is rare for me to see a film like this one and not take it to heart. It IS an emotioanal story. And the characters are very sympathetic. That is what makes it so much a favorite with so many, I am sure. But I am such a "dope" sometimes and it is hard for me to watch a movie any other way than without my "world view" and my "here's where I stand on that issue" attatched. So consequently, I bring all my cards to the table everywhere I go, so to speak. Ha. And that is sometimes a LOT of baggage (or should I say "blabbage" ha) when it comes time for me to explain what I THINK about a movie or a storyline or a character... but it's who I am.. ha. It's what I do. :-) But I do appreciate folks putting up with me and my "whacky" thoughts. ha. And I am glad to hear this time that I am not so alone on my mountaintop as I thought. (ha) Thanks everybody. You caught me. No, you are RIGHT, I certainly like my share of happy endings. They are often predictable, but still enjoyable. Most of my favorites have "happy endings." ANOTHER breakthrough moment. ha. You heard it first HERE folks. Ha. (Maybe Miss Maven was right when she told Molo THIS place was therapy.. ha. I discovered I am a CONTROL freak.. and YOU (my DEAR Mr. Grey") are just a big fluffy marshmallow SOFTIE, afterall. ha. What a moment. Ha.. Who needs a doctor when we have "Rambles JR"??? Ha. So you would tell the doctor, "the heck with losing him forever, I'm doing it my way!" Yeah, that sounds like you Ha.. I say again.. WHO needs a Doctor??? ha. (ok.. I take that back.. ha. The next time I NEED major surgery or even a bandaid. ha I DO.. sorry all you medical folks) ha. But NO kidding.. I would NOT allow my husband to go NEARLY so far down his amnesiac path as to start to make WEDDING PLANS with someone else (right in front of me, no less) without finding SOME way to tell him the TRUTH. (those post it notes were NO joke, mister. Ha.. that QT is mine all mine all MINE. ha.) But I believe Doniphon still loved Hallie and died loving her despite her being married. I believe he died lonely and heartbroken. I'm not sure if that was ever spoken, it's just how I envision it. So Doniphon is the "Charlotte" in the triangle, for he is the unmarried one in love. He's loving her from afar. And he knows she's never coming back to him. OK... you got me there. (and after I was feeling all "smug" and proud of myself about my "camelias and cacti" crack. ha). I do agree with your comparison told from that angle. He would have probably agreed with you when you told him, "get over it, pilgrim Maybe... ha. Right after he SOCKED me in the jaw and stormed out.. ha. He IS the Duke afer all. Ha. :-)

Wow.. I just looked in here and LOOK at what I find.. hmmmm.... the discussion here has made me want to watch the remake I have been torn for so long on that one.. ha. "To watch or not to watch.. that is the question" ha. I liked the original VERY much... I also recall a long drawn out chat a long time ago where the Grey Dude told me he thought the new one was more than I could handle (from a blood and guts point of view, ha) but I THINK I set him straight on THAT... ha. Although I am not a "gratuitous" violence kinda gal... I am NOT so delicate as all THAT) so WHO knows???? ha. Anyway.. I am "torn" all over again. For pity's sake.. ha. I am such a doofus sometimes. ha.