[Western Movie Rambles]

She knows a little German

 

Is his name Klaus?

[Western Movie Rambles]

I find it very interesting that you can talk about pretty much anything in this world and the conversation ends up leaning towards those movies

 

Thank goodness it is those two films and not something else.. ha. Imagine if we had to say... "Sooner or later it all comes down to... TOP SECRET!!!". HA!! (Just doesn't have the same ring to it, does it??????) :-)

 

PS... friendly and sweet are always higher on the list for me than gorgeous and dimples.. ha. But its nice to have all of the above! :-)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Little T.. sounds like you are making new friends. ha. (cute ones at THAT!) :-)

 

And PS.. you and Chris are both right. Sooner or later.. it doesn't matter what we are jabbering about... it all comes down to The Searchers and/or TMWSLV. (And I personally don't see that as a bad thing. Ha.) Two seperate movies... with completely different characters and themes... and yet somehow very often relevant in some way or another to a lot of the other films we discuss here on a regular basis. (As a Western/Duke/Ford fan... aint I the lucky one that no matter what genre I am jabbering about, sooner or later I can still end up talking about all three of my favorites too. ha) :-)

[Western Movie Rambles]

But keep in mind...

 

OH SURE... you had to go and bring THAT up. ha.

 

But you are right... And he did have that mindset all the way up to the very end... but I do believe he was only doing it out of the same sort of emotion that COULD have led him to "search" all those years for a comletely OTHER reason (as in: to rescue her) and likely would have had he not been so consumed by his hatred of the comanche. The longer things went on (and ON) the more driven he became to put an end to it his way.

 

And I think Ethan stuck with it for so long because of who she was and because of what had been done to his family. If Debbie had been just some OTHER kid... from some other family.. and if it had not been Martha and Aaron... and their family who were murdered, I don't think he'd have spent all those years out there like that. Oh sure... he wanted to get Scar... but it would not have been the same sort of search for him without the family connection.. and I don't think he'd have been so committed almost to the point of insanity had Debbie been somebody else.

 

And what I find intriguing is that I guess you could say the same things about Marty as well... because all those things I just mentioned were the same reasons HE was there as well... they were both working all those years from the same motivation... but only from a different point of view. And to me, (don't miss this Grey Dude.. ha.) that was absolutely one of the most fascinating :-) aspects to the whole story.

 

Ethan really believed he was doing right by Martha (AND by Aaron) .. and most importantly by Debbie too (whom he clearly loved... and yet in a way had come to hate) In his mind, death was the better alternative for her than being where she was. It was mixed up logic, but it was what he really believed.

 

(And PS... ha. Sorry for the detour.. ha. All of that was just extra blabbage, folks... did not mean to lead you down a rabbit trail... Please go on w/ the Aaron/Ethan compare and contrast. You folks have all given me a lot to think about it. I am not sure where I come down on Aaron exactly. I don't think I have ever viewed any of it (in it's entirety) the way you folks have been talking about it... but it is likely because I never gave him as much thought as I should have. You have given me a lot to think about.

 

Next time I watch I will keep in mind all the stuff you have been saying and see how it all fits together. Thanks folks.

[Western Movie Rambles]

Most of the time, Ford sees evil as something within us or within the institutions we create, not as a "bad guy out there"

 

Wow, Ms Favell... nice job in breaking down the Ford villians like that. I really enjoyed your entire post. And have to say that you have got a really sound perspective on what makes all those "baddies" (ha) tick. Well thought out, young'un.

 

In fact... you alll are giving me some good insight into the deeper recesses of Fordian villainy. Thanks folks.

 

PS: Mr. Grey...

 

But, you are right, many times, the villain within a Ford film is the lead character's own issues or society. This is why I like Ford. He's complex. It's hardly ever a straightforward "white hat, black hat." The white hat can be just as messed up (or more so) as the black hat

 

Oh golly... this is an interesting and fascinating development. (ha) For all my black and white ways.. I have to agree with you. It does seem to be a prevalent theme in a lot of his films.. (gulp.. NOW what am I going to do... I have no mud to throw this time...)

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

I would love to see a good chat on Impact.... It has been on my list a while, and I just looked it up on youtube... and it looks like a "walk worthy" choice for sure.

 

Don't know if I will get a chance to watch it by the time you are ready to chat or not... but PLEASE do "start walking" anytime, ladies. And I will jump in if I can

 

(PS: Gals... don't wait on me for OOTP. Who KNOWS if the library will have it or not. They don't always have what I want, but they can sometimes order it in, so we will see what happens. I will let you know if I find it or not)

[Western Movie Rambles]

Wow... He is liking our beloved Victor even more now??? That IS impressive. :-) I guess we won't have to throw him in the guardhouse afterall.

 

Maybe one day I can try to do the same with Once Upon a Time in the West. Oh, dear!

 

Now let's not take this thing TOO far, Goddess.... he will start to think that he can get GUILT us into doing things like that... and then he really WON'T be fit to live with. HA!!!!

 

(PS... if you DO rewatch it let me know... I will loan you a case of my Pepto!!)

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Hello there, little missy...

 

you have made some huge strides in your walk on the noir side

 

Well.. I HOPE I have it right.. because I do think her entire part in that set up w/ Obrien was just that.. a set up. And I also think she worked with Jim to set Ole up too... along w/ all the others in the gang.

 

(And as for the "dialogue" I wrote... ha.. well.. I have an overactive imagination, sometimes, ha. But can't you just hear them saying that??) ha.

 

I confess that scenario always had me confused. I didn't know exactly who was double crossing (or triple crossing!) who but now I can see it was even dirtier than I thought.

 

You are right, parts of that whole "who's double crossing whom" stuff is confusing... Kitty had me a bit confused for a while... in that restaurant... telling the "I'm married, blah blah blah" story... I did not REALLY think she was "reformed" but I was not sure if she was on the level about everything she was saying in her flashback or not... but then later when everything played out and I found out Big JIM was her husband.. I wondered if they had not been married all along.. or at least soon after the got all that money. Anway.. it really does seem to me that she never really was anything but a little opportunistic money grubber...

 

PS Mr. Grey: But I've been chatty!

 

That's true.. but it's not how MUCH you've been tallking... it's WHAT you've been saying that will get you on the wrong end of the rope!!

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Hi there Miss Maven,

 

I totally forgot that Kitty planned this WITH Big Jim. So he pimped her out to do this double-cross

 

Yes... oh yes, he did. (or she "pimped" herself.. it all depends on how you view the answer to your next question...

 

You think she broached Big Jim with this, or did Big Jim propose it to her and her kitty-kat mind just lapped up the idea

 

And I am not sure what that answer is.. but they were definitley in cohoots.

 

Wait-a-cotton-pickin? minute? So are you guys saying that that was probably all an act in the hotel room: ?Touch me and you won?t live ?till morning!???????? That from there Kitty and Colfax set up the Swede?

 

I don't know if the whole "touch me, and etc" thing was an act.. but it may well have been. It may have made Kitty seem more in need of "help" from Ole... or at least it made her seem less "Jim's" girl. I think they wanted to keep Ole under the false impression that she was there for HIM, not for Jim. (and again... it really does go to show how duped he was... because I don't think he'd really have fallen in with their plans had it not been because Kitty was there... it was almost like Jim told her... (or depending on the "pimp' angle... she thought of it herself) "Hey Kitty... go sit on that bed and "pose" so that when Ole walks in, you are THE first thing he sees... he will be so tongue tied and crosseyed, when he sees you there, we'll have him right where we need him".

 

And that is just what happened... He took the bait, hook, line and sinker. There was NO way Ole was going to listen to Charlston when the older man tried to talk him into geting out... it was too late once he opened that door. He was too hypnotized by the sight of Kitty.. and her sweater.

 

Wasn?t she just the perfect femme fatale?

 

Well, yes.. she WAS that... but...

 

Isn?t there a caveat emptor clause we can throw Miss Kitty? She never pulled the trigger on anyone. Dum-Dum kills Blinkey; Colfax and Dum-Dum gun each other down...and the Killers blast Ole to Kingdom Come

 

She may never have pulled the trigger on anyone directly.. but when she went to that restuarant with OBrien, she was not there for any other reason than to set the ball in motion.. she was the "domino tipper". She got up to go "powder her nose" and told Obrien to wait for her there, knowing full well what (or who) was walking in the door as she went.

 

She left that insurance guy sitting there and was thinking happy thoughts that she was about to be rid of him and his nosey questions... I doubt it ever entered her mind that anything would go wrong.

 

(And PS.. going back to the "she never pulled the trigger" question.. I imagine she also knew all about Ole's death too... and even if she did not give the order... I bet she likely agreed that Big Jim should get rid of him.. he knew WAY too much. I can just hear her hashing it over with him.. "We have to make sure he keeps that big dumb yap of his shut, but good!"

 

So is it wrong for a gal to throw her lot in with the Alpha male?

 

Ha.. well... given her personality... she would likely not have it any other way.

 

PS Perhaps this is why some feel ?OUT OF THE PAST? is the better film noir, or at the very least...works better. Mitchum takes a car ride and tells his tale in flashback. By the time he pulls up to his destination at Kirk Douglas? Tahoe retreat, we (the audience) are caught up to speed and the rest of the story takes place in real noir time.

 

Ok.. you folks have just pushed me over the edge.. ha. With all this talk on here, and me looking it up in the TCM database.. and viewing the trailer, etc.. I HAVE to see this film now. ha.. I will head to the library TOMORROW and see if I can find this one. (for once I DID try to find it on youtube first... but no luck) Let's keep our fingers crossed for the library and see what happens. :-)

 

PSS Jackie.. I forgot about the "two days"... she did take her time hurrying back home. ha.

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Hello Mr. Boring!!!

 

Oh, wait. You ain't talkin'

 

Who me?? The "mouth" that roared???? ha... To quote the Duke: THAT'LL be the day!!!

 

That's how I took it. I think that's why I thought she liked Big Jim more, because she could have took off with Ole and the money, if she wanted to. But then I thought about it and I've come to believe she only "liked" Big Jim more because he was more powerful and better off in life than The Swede.

 

That's it exactly. I think she knew Ole was "small potatoes" compared to Big Jim and she only wanted the "best" when it came to what men could give her.... especially money and all it's trappings. Ole was just the "dumb lug" they used to help carry the loot and she might have had a physical attraction to him, but she was more about the money.

 

I also think she was just wicked and LIKED the fact that she was playing Ole for a fool as much as she liked the "thrill of the kill" in seeing him get used.

 

A typical woman

 

Oh, that's how all of us men end with you women. You can't wait until we're gone

 

Haven't you had ENOUGH of a beating these past few days already??? I swear... the way you talk, you'd think you actually MISSED not having that frozen rope around your neck...

 

I'm with ya. That's no fun. Let's talk about exciting and boring

 

Ha... now THAT would be interesting.. and FASCINATING!!!

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Hiya Mr. Grey

 

Kitty is basically shacking up with whatever man she can get the most out of. When Big Jim is in the klink, it's The Swede. And when it's The Swede behind bars, she's back with Big Jim.

 

Kitty was only using both men for what she could get from them at the time... but what made her REALLY awful with me is that she use Big Jim at Ole's expense. (at least when it came time to hit the hat factory) She was working WITH Big Jim to get over on Ole (and I don't think she'd have done the same with Ole to get over on Big Jim. (or maybe I am wrong... but that is what I am recalling)

 

I think Kitty was an "equal opportunity monster" when it came to who she would use. It more or less boiled down to whatever side her bread was buttered on at the time.

 

I actually thought she liked Big Jim (Albert Dekker). Did she love him? Probably not. She was worried about her own hide more than anything else.

 

I think she preferred Big Jim to Ole but not because she loved him more... but rather because he was a better "bad guy" and could get her what she really wanted... more "stuff" for Kitty! Because I don't think she ever loved anyone but herself.

 

And I think poor old Jim had the worst "ending" of all... laying there on the stairs and coming to the eye opening moment... as she rushes to his side... and seeing that Kitty cared NOTHING for the fact that HE was dying... all she wanted was for him to bail HER out of trouble. What a way to go.

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

welcome to the Bogie Lancaster Fan Club.

 

Ha... that sounds like a club for people w/ trenchcoats and good hair. (HA) :-) but thanks!!! :-)

 

You have to spend time with a person to see that they?re people...human. Maybe that?s what the flashbacks prevented according to other ambling ramblers.

 

That could be a part of the equation. I think in general, flashbacks can be a good way to tell a story sometimes.. but usually just a PART of the story. I like them in small doses. I sort of wish we could have seen a bit MORE of Ole's story as it was actually unfolding ( instead of just the beginning of the movie (and then end for him). Because other than those moments when he is about to meet his maker, and the fateful end of all his accomplices (including Kitty's downfall too) we are more or less left with interviews of the people who knew Ole's story, and a few inconsequential moments in the insurance office here and there for "real time' storyline in the film.

 

All we ever get to find out about Ole, other than "he did something wrong, once" is really only "hearsay" told by a third party. And his story was so compelling and tragic, I wanted to know him better. I think if THAT much of the story had been going to rely on flashback, I'd have liked it better if it had been more or less told just by one person... mabye Kitty in some sort of police confessional, and do the whole thing maybe in one long flashback (like Liberty Valance).

 

But THEN we'd have had a lot fewer scenes with the editor of the Shinbone Star (wow, was THAT a surprise when I figured out they were the same guy... golly.) So... I guess the way it ended up was not so bad as it COULD be.. but I do think if the film had one drawback, at least for me, the "flashback" thing was not entirely the best way to go. But that is just my opinion... and as I like to say.. ha.... nobody is paying ME the big bucks to make that movie.. so WHO am I to say??? ha.

 

I was thinking that Ole laid there waiting to die b?cuz he knew deep down he did something wrong. I think Ole laid there waiting to die b?cuz he didn?t have the courage to kill himself

 

That's pretty much what I finally came to figure out (after I got through the whole story) When he tried to jump out of the window... the little cleaning lady stopped him... and he "survived" but really... he was already dead inside at that moment... his body just had to catch up with him.

[RAMBLES Part II]

And rohanaka, I know we've talked before about how you want to revisit it, I think you said you had seen it once upon a time. I just know you would like it

 

Little gal, I have only seen portions of it.. YEARS and years ago. (some of the middle and part of the ending) and I did not even know what I was watching when it was on.. and have NEVER come across it since. (alas)

 

But I DO recall how MEAN and awful our dear Ms Bondi was... what a shocker for me.. ha. I had not seen TOTC yet when I saw the bit of SOTH so long ago..ha. So it really got my attention how WITCHY she really was. I had NEVER seen her like that before.

 

I will be waiting on the edge of my seat to read eveyone's posts .. I will enjoy your screencaps too. It will be the next best thing to being there. :-)

 

THANKS Mr. Movieman for bringing this one up here. (and PS, I do recall the scenery too.. and I don?t know if was the Ozarks or not.. but I have been to the Ozarks.. on more than one occasion, and it IS every bit that beautiful.)

[Western Movie Rambles]

it was me that started all this, ha! Because I do find ALL of Fort Apache exciting

 

HA!!! So it was YOU!!! ha. :-) OH no..ha.. say it aint SO!! ha. Now he will not be fit to live with... ha.

 

KIDDING... only kidding!!! :-)

 

(ha.... and PS I am WAY so very WAY with you on Sly and that Terminator guy.. ha... at least for the most part.... there is too much blood and guts with VERY little point to all that "excitement" ha.)

 

Dang!

 

And Dadgum TOO!! :-)

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

he's maimed, and doesn't know it.... just like later his heart is maimed by Kitty and he doesn't even realize he's being played by her

 

Hiya Ms. Favell.... I like what you are saying here. He really was clueless on both counts. And again.. it makes him all the more sympathetic because you can't help but feel sorry for him... even though he more or less MADE his own bed and had to be shot in it (so to speak)

 

PS... re: the music that Dragnet theme is a LOT more evident in the story than I even realized... ha. I really only noticed it the most in that big shoot out in the restaurant near the end.. but I also went back to watch the beginning.. I wanted to see the early diner scene again and I found it on youtube)

"Da da dump dump" is ALL over that opening theme..ha And I LIKE it. :-)

 

PS Miss G:

 

He is very raw boned and conveys this feeling he's carrying a real load, and I don't think it's all just the girl. He seems to have no solid faith in himself unless others are praising him as a winner and he can flash and boast. We learn he lost his parents when he was just a boy and he does give the idea of a man who's never really had anything of his own to hold onto and believe in. A woman like Kitty can make mince meat of a guy like that. He doesn't act like a man who knows his own attraction, either, which I appreciate. He doesn't play Ole like he's as good looking as he really is, which is great. No, his self consciousness comes from a lack of ego, not too much of it and that is remarkable for Burt Lancaster's break through role when you think about it

 

That's Ole (and Burt's performance) all over, little Missy. He (Ole) was ripe for the picking by the time he met up w/ Kitty and the gang. He had no clue that he wasn't the center of her world either. Somewhere near the end she or someone else makes a point of saying that all the other guys KNEW who's girl she really was...all of them but Ole. He never even DREAMED things were any other way than he thought they were until she left him high and dry and he realized he'd been double crossed.

 

I kept wondering what would make a person just lay (or lie..ha. I still don't know which) there and wait for those two thugs to come and get him... and by the end of it all, I understood. Even IF the little lady who grabbed him by the pants pulled him back in from the window, he still fell HARD that night and never quite recovered. It just took him longer to die.

 

And PS again (ha) thanks for the comment on OOTP too.. I will have to go back and look but it might be on the list I made way back at the beginning of all this when I was getting recommendations from everyone. I know I have looked it up before to see about it. I will make a point of looking again. :-)

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Hello there, Miss Maven.

 

I am glad to see this film is generating such a nice walk for us. It is a good stretch of the legs, so to speak. :-)

 

I?m glad you gave Burt Lancaster a chance. I think we might all do well to give those actors and actress we?re not crazy about a chance.

 

I am learning that lesson on a regular basis around here. It has widened my movie watching horizon. ha.

 

(Except for Robert Donat

 

What??? I like RD (in the few films I have seen him in.. ha. But I have yet to discover his ARMS (or was it his wrists?) yet... I heard about them though.. ha.

 

Who here had said they were not fans of Bogart, and is now reconsidering him?

 

Ha... that would be the girl wearing the tomato juice stains... ha. :-) Live and learn.. ha. Bogie and BLT's... I had no idea what I was missing!!! :-)

 

When I first saw this film, I did not expect any from the diner to survive the night. Hell, why should they...they could be as easily rubbed out as ordering a steak sandwich. But with all the tension in that scene, that those guys survived almost feels like a plot twist

 

It let those characters stand out a bit more that we cared what happened to them (though they were just on the screen for a few tense moments. And TODAY'S moviemakers likely WOULD have rubbed them out.. and not given us the chance to see them so humanly (like the scene you mentioned w/ the cook) they'd just be 3 passing victims in a string of violence nowdays. I like that they were PEOPLE in this film.

 

Ole did seem to make some very bad decisions...he wanted to get rich quick. And threw in his lot with some berry bad men. And one l'il kitty kat who brought him down and shred his heart to smithereens

 

Kinda sad, wasn't he? For all his physical strength, he was mentally (and emotionally) weak. And a lot more sympathetic because of his weak nature.

 

Have you ever seen Lancaster in the great color noir: ?DESERT FURY???

 

Kitty on the bed will be mirrored in ?OUT OF THE PAST? when Kathie comes to the breakfast table in her lingerie. Have you ever seen that film, Ro?

 

I haven't seen either of them (but I have head of OOTP before. I will have to go look both of them up and see what I've been missing. :-)

[Western Movie Rambles]

What is this, Pride and Prejudice?!

 

Ha... YES... maybe... it is "P & P the Cavalry Years" ha.

 

OH you....

 

I say again... you are ONE in a million.... enjoy the EXCITING ending.. and just try to think of the first part of the movie as.... intersting and fascinating. Maybe it won't be so.... boring!!!!! (I will be using those words against you for the next gazillion YEARS!!!!!) ha

[Western Movie Rambles]

Oh good gravy.. ha. Grey Guy... you are one in a million.. ha.

 

Maybe you should give the QT the test. Go ahead and watch Fort Apache and ask him if he thinks the first two acts are "exciting."

 

Ha.. funny you should say that.. the LAST time I watched this film (which was way back in the Spring when we rambled on it before) he walks in the room, sits down, sees what I am watching and says, "What? Another cowboy movie?" HA!!! But then he sat down and watched it with me and enjoyed it very much. (he had seen it before too) And no... he did not go on and on about how "exciting" it was... but I don't recall he called it boring either.

 

If it's 100 degrees out and I go around telling everyone it's cold, I guess that means it's cold.

 

Well first of all.. if it is 100 degrees and you think it is cold... where did you come from?? ha. The center of the EARTH?? ha. And second.. I am thinking that you are missing the POINT of what I said about perspectives. To continue with your example... the temperature IS what it is... that is the fact... whether you think it is too cold or too hot.. THAT is your perspective. How can you... Mr.GREY... be so black and white about all this??? We are talking about opinions... which vary from person to person. Not cold, hard, thermometer driven facts

 

Is a tear-jerker like Now, Voyager or An Affair to Remember "exciting"? Is that how you would describe such a film to someone?

 

No.. I would not describe them as exciting... but why would I want to???? When I said things depend on our perspective.. I was not really talking about whether I thought something was exciting.. I was talking about whether I MINDED if it was exciting or not.. or whether I thought it needed to be exciting for me to like it... whether or not it was "boring". To me, THOSE things are all dependant on perspective.

 

I think that word "exciting" is our whole issue here.

 

You may have said somewhere along the way that you did not find the first part of the film "exciting" and were bored with the story until the end.. and when people disagreed with you about the "boring" part.. you may have thought they were also saying you were wrong about it being un-exciting. (but I could be wrong about all that.. I might have to go back and re-read everything people have written. Did anyone else call the beginning of the film "exciting" or did folks just argue with you that it was "NOT boring"?) Because exciting is NOT the opposite of boring... and I think we have just discoved in both of our last posts.. that is what was happening... both those words were getting used that way.

 

That's a good point. I have been linking the two, and I'm wrong to do so. A film that interests you or fascinates you isn't boring.

 

Ha... we have a winner!!!! That is exactly the point I was referring to. THAT is what I mean about "perspective".

 

So.. no... nowhere in my thoughts and musings on Fort Apache am I going to say (at least I HOPE I never did..ha) that I think the beginning of the film is exciting... so I concede your point... the first part of the film is not as exciting as the end. But I also say... who cares???? (other than you!! ha.. ) It doesn't have to be "exciting" to be good. And THAT is where we really differ. THAT is where the perspective angle comes in. I am not saying it is a matter of perspective whether it is exciting.. I am saying it is a matter of perspective if it MATTERS.

 

The personal taste that I have.. that enjoys all the things you disliked about the beginning.. is the same sort of issue that leads YOU to say that you like all the things I find boring about 2001. And we are BOTH right about it all (at least from our own points of view) from the "subjective" part of the equation...

 

How hot DOES it have to be to be hot??? (and yes... 100 degrees is WAY hot for me) but I would rather be hot THAT way.. than be at the center of the EARTH kinda hot... so THERE is your perspective)

 

But you would tell me to sit in the corner and face the wall and say,"it's exciting

 

No.. I wouldn't tell you it was exciting... but I WOULD tell you to go sit in the corner. (Ha)

 

And when I'd say, "but, Aunt Ro, this is boring." You'd say, "well, that's just a matter of personal preference.

 

Nope... wrong again... when you'd say "it's boring" I would say, "That's a tough break for you, isn't it? Life is not always going to BE exciting so you will have to get over it" (just ask the KIDLING about that one... ha. She HATES when I say that) (and NO.. I am not being MEAN... I am just saying.. life... and movies... don't always HAVE to be "exciting" all the time to be enjoyed. And I think you have agreed with me on THAT much.. so... I guess I won't make you stay in the corner TOO long. (not this time anyway)

 

PS Chris... a little dust never hurt anyone.. ha (I have to believe that.. otherwise my whole house and practically my entire way of life would be just one big contradiction... ha)

[Western Movie Rambles]

How DO you do, Mr Grey... (ya little thrill seeking JUNKIE) ha.

 

Everything else that is going on in the first two acts really doesn't interest me. There is no real conflict. Just about everything is internalized with the exception of maybe a little, here and there. The only other character that interests me is Collingwood (George O'Brien). What they do at the outpost isn't interesting to me,

 

Ok... ha. we really are at a point where this is all more or less boiling down to (as Miss G said, I think) a matter of personal taste. (or was it preference). ANYWAY... and I repeat what I said last night... ha.. what is "interesting and fascinating (to use your description) to ME... does not always have to be "exciting" all the time for me to enjoy it... BECAUSE it is "interesting and fascinating" ha.

 

Do I need everything to be action? Not at all. I love 12 Angry Men and Inherit the Wind. They are not action films full of excitement. But I find more conflict, controntation, and humor in is those films, so there is something going on. I'm far from bored. But, I would never say to someone, "you need to watch Inherit the Wind, it's exciting!" It's not "exciting."

 

Ok... so you are saying (I THINK) that you can live without the "rock'em sock'em robot-like stuff" so long as everybody spends the whole movie just sitting (or standing) around yelling at each other?? You still want people to FIGHT. (ha) Because 90% of both of those movies...ha.. that is what is going on.. HA.

 

No... I am kidding... KIDDING!!!! (all 12AM and ITW fans SIT down..ha)

 

I think (maybe) I am getting more of a piece of the puzzle here.. And this conversation has been beneficial in that it is helping me understand another little bit of the "mystery" that IS Frank Grimes.. ha. I think you are saying that while you like the movie (as a whole) you just wanted it to "move on' and get to the good part (the action) ... and that all the "other stuff" was either too "fluffy" or too mundane to interest you. And then YES... that is going to be a matter of personal taste... because EVERYBODY has their own idea about what makes a movie interesting, fascinating, and/or exciting.

 

Thank you! I love character studies and the examination of people, but I would never tell others that this is "exciting.

 

Well it all depends. ha. Some people find PAINT DRYING exciting.. ha. So it might depend on who I was talking to. ha. But really.. my point is that I think you are equating "exciting" with more valuable or enjoyable, maybe... at least with Ft Apache... but to me... I think it is enjoyable and valuable as it is. And PS: "Exciting" is not a word I might use in describing Ft Apache either... but leaving it out of the description doesn't harm the film in anyway..

 

And that's what I've said! I LIKE Fort Apache... because the end saves it. I also like Fonda's performance and what I feel about blind authority and the "book." And I can like things in a film yet still not like the film.

 

And see... I don't think the movie needed the action at the end to "save it" because to me.. it did not need to be saved. I think the whole film (including the action at the end) is able to stand on it's own. I think it is very well put together and is an excellent example of one of John Ford's finer western/military/character study type films. I did not need to rely just on the excitement factor of the story to like the story... and for whatever reason... at least in this film.. you did.

 

But that is because we are different people... and we are looking at this thing from two completely different points of view, each from our own perspective and each with our own expectations for the film.

 

I think our biggest issue here... really... is just those two words... "perspective" and "expectation". Our differences of opinion are not about what the movie is (in terms of substance, maybe) but more about what we VALUED in the film and what we wanted to see. And THAT is always going to be a personal thing... because.. as I am sure folks are starting to get sick of hearing me say..ha.. (but I will say again) Movies are NOTHING if not subjective... We are not going to all like the same things... and even if we do... we are not going to like them in the same way or for the same reason... wouldn't it be a BORING and un-EXCITING world if we did???

 

2001: A Space Odyssey is a film that mesmerizes me.

 

OH my golly... ha. Talk about a BORING movie.. HA!!!

 

If I cannot come to understand how others (most) would find it to be boring and stupid, I'm being blind and stubborn... like Thursday. Now I can speak of how I find the visuals and silence of the film to be exciting and thrilling, but most everyone else is going to shrug their shoulders and say, "it's boring as heck." And guess what? They are right. And I would certainly NOT say it's an "exciting" film. Far from it

 

Now see.. YOU have just taken a film that proves my point EXACTLY.. that has to be one of the most subjecitve movies ever made. WHAT the heck was it about??? WHAT the heck is the big deal??? A monkey discovers how to use a "tool" and jumps up and down for ten minutes and with a bunch of other monkeys.. ha.. and then there is a big floating rock out in space.. The End. HA!!! (kidding... only KIDDING!!!!!) Anyway... That film is a VERY good example of what I am talking about. Each person who views it has to do so from their own perspective.. and HOW they view it will reall determine whether they liked it or not.

 

And he's right! The first two acts of Fort Apache are meant to be boring... except the love story. That could have been and should have been more exciting, but it just wasn't... to me. But when you are watching anality, it's not going to be exciting. Thursday is draining the excitement from the film and life. He's a miserable man. Ford succeeds in showing us such a man and the end he delivers is arguably the best of all Ford films

 

Wow.. you are hard to please.. ha. Again... to me.. all the stuff you found boring about the beginning... I really liked. But that is because I am not defining "BORING" as the lack of "EXCITEMENT"... if it interests me... and I am fascinated by it (you should NOT have given me those two words..ha) I am NOT going to find it BORING.

 

Golly I would have hated to try to entertain you as a little kid.. ha. I can just hear it now. "Aunt Ro... I want a pony and a baseball bat... and give me some video games and let's make a volcano on the kitchen table... and OH... How about taking me to the carnival so I can ride the roller coaster, and while you are at it.. can you tap dance for me and then stand on your head and whistle dixie????? I want to be interested and fascinated... BUT I want excitement TOO!!" ha.

 

GOOD GRIEF. I would have said... get over it kid.. go read a book!! (ha)

 

A small discussion in a coach ride is exciting?! Women!

 

NO... No, no, no, no no!!! But is WAS intersting and FASCINATING!!!

[Western Movie Rambles]

Hello Mr Sawdust and Saur Kraut....

 

I agree with everything you wrote. I find Thursday's personality and his interraction with this subordinates to be interesting and fascinating but it's not exciting to me.

 

You are cracking me up. Ha. (and you likely have no idea why..ha but let me try to explain.. ha)

 

Now I have to confess... I find your "interesting and fascinating, but not exciting" comment very helpful... especially when coupled with....

 

I'm pretty much equating excitement with action

 

Ok... I can live with that. .. but I am having trouble understanding why that is a source of complaint.... because it is not "action packed" is it less than what you want it to be? Does it have to be action all the time for a story to really appeal to you? I don't think so... but (If I am reading you correctly) I think you are saying that you prefer the "unfolding" of the characters to happen while all the action is going on too. (similar to The Horse Soldiers).

 

 

We can look at this from a lot of different angles here, but it is really going to come down to perspective.

 

I think Ft Apache is not supposed to be action driven like The Horse Soldiers was... because THAT film is about the long journey they have to go through and all the conflict that arises out of them having to take Hannah (and her maid) along with them. Ft Apache stays in one place (more or less) for most of the first part of the movie... so we get to see the day to day of "life on the Fort" and the training of the men, and the management style of the man in charge and those who report directly to him. And we get to see the conflicts that arise out of the different schools of thought that all the various men in leadership have.

 

So.. in one way.. you are right.. there is NOT a lot of "action"... it is more about getting to know the characters, laying that groundwork we've been talking about, and the looking ahead at the enevitable end of things... Going off or YOUR definition of "exciting".. it likely is NOT that exciting a film (at least until the end).

 

But I think (ha.. to borrow from a COMPLETELY different movie here..ha) what we have here is failure to communicate. Ha. Because, for me, the fact that it is "interesting and fascinating".... means that it doesn't HAVE to be action packed. Not all films are going to be not stop action and I KNOW you well enough to know that you would agree that this is OK.

 

So what we are left here with REALLY.. are just basically a couple of things...

 

A) a difference of perspective on the need for "action" in the story and a difference of expectations... as far as what we both wanted to see happen in the plot.

 

And this is totally cracking me up.. ha.. because... you are reminding me of... THE QT (of all people..ha) He uses almost the same argument as you sometimes when we are talking about films... only instead of saying the movie wasn't "exciting".. he uses the OPPOSITE word and would say... (if he shared your view) that the film was "boring".

 

And he and I used to go ROUND AND ROUND, because he would tell me in one breath that he LIKED a movie... and then in the next sentence he'd say how BORING it was..ha. It used to make me nutso trying to figure him out.. ha.

 

A perfect example... He LOVES the film Bridge on the River Kwai... we talk about it every so often.. and he has watched it many, many times. He thinks it is a VERY good story.. and thoroughly enjoys all the intricate details and conflicts between all the different characters (and we go around here saying "MADNESS" all the time..ha. It is one of his favorite movie quotes ever. ha. Even the kidling will say it.. and she has NO idea why.. HA!)

 

But if you ask him to tell you what he THINKS of the movie.. the first thing you will get out of him is that he thinks a lot of it is BORING. ha.. You men. You have a language all your own.. HA!

 

Anyway.. after years and YEARS of movie chats (and debates) with him... I have figured out that when he was saying BORING... what he really meant was... "not full of action... not "exciting".... to use YOUR word. But he will also tell you that some movies are meant to be "boring" and that "excitiment" would not be the best way to tell the story.

 

So... now... having said all that.... can I answer THIS????

 

What are the two most exciting moments of Fort Apache to you... prior to Cochise

 

I don't know. but I CAN tell you... that the beginning of the film is one of my most favorite portions of the whole movie. I LOVE the interraction between Thursday and his daughter in the stage on the way to the Fort... the very opening scenes... You get to see how POMPOUS a jerk he is (and how sweet and endearing she is.... and also how VERY much she loves to "dote" on him and how much he believes it is his due.) You more or less get to know almost everything you need to know about both of them from the very beginning...

 

But it doesn't stop there... it just keeps going and going.. I love how all the characters are introduced.. one at at time.. or in small groups.... until Thursday arrives and interrupts the big party.. and Thursday says something like... "I take it this party is not in my honor" and the Duke tells him it is a birthday party... for another general... General Washington... (you know.. Father of the country... hero of American History.. First president of the United States... that guy) and Thursday is both "put in his place" and yet... arrogant enough to think (you can read his mind) that the party should have been for him ANYWAY.

 

Now.. ok.. those early scenes are not "exciting" but I like them.. they lay some really excellent framework... and the story just continues to build from there... so to me.. the movie is not "less" entertaining.. due to lack of "action".

 

Maybe this all will only make sense to me..ha. But I just think that sometimes a film doesn't NEED a lot of "action" to tell the story... and sometimes the action DRIVES the story... and other times... you get a mixture of both... or something in between.... and it's all good. I am more about the characters and what motivates them... and why they do what they do... and I know YOU are too sometimes... so I say... excitement?? Phooey. ha.

 

Give me "boring" now and then... so long as the story is a good one and I can get into the characters.

[Western Movie Rambles]

I just don't find anything in the first two acts of Fort Apache to be exciting or thrilling. Nothing really grabs me... other than Fonda's performance. His "Thursday" is all that matters to me. He's compelling, but not in an exciting or thrilling way. We're basically being set up for a fantastic implosion. And I think the ending resonates so strongly because of what we come to know of Thursday and his men in the first two acts, so there is a pay-off.

 

There is a pay off for sure... but it may be a matter of perspective as to what a person thinks of the events leading up to it. In some ways, it is almost like two seperate stories (at the beginning) You have the Duke.. and the men (and even the women) and all their "stories".. and then you have Thursday and the men (and yes the women..ha) ... and all of HIS story... events all happening at the same time.. but from two different angles, in a way.

 

You could take Thursday competely out of the picture and have a nice little cavalry movie with some comedy and romance thrown in for good measure along with chasing down the indians. OR.. you could focus entirely on Thursday and have it be a story that is completly about a bull headed ego maniac and one of the most arrogant and foolish plans a military leader could devise.

 

But in Ft Apache.. you get both.. and it does blend together eventually. (in terms of making one complete story). And again, it could come down to perspective how well you think that all works. But I think (you and others have said this already) the early part of the story really is a lot about laying the groundwork, so to me.. the parts you like less are very necessary. (It's the "simmer" of the pot, if you will... or better yet... the "slow burn" you mention to get to the red hot flames)

 

And I am not even really saying this just to describe the film (and more specifically Thursday's fatal error at the end of it) But what I am saying... is that it might be that there is a level of patience required to really get the full benefit from the two sides of the story when they all come together. This is one of those stories you have to "wait for" in a way. (although I personally think there is PLENTY to like and enjoy all the way through) But because you do have to WAIT for the "fantastic implosion"... it is a process... and it may well seem to some like nothing much stands out for a while... but then there is that implosion. And GEE wasn't it worth the wait.

 

Or to go back to my "simmer" analogy... don't try to lift the lid too early on the big kettle, Grey Dude... the Saur Kraut is not quite ready yet. ha. You won't get the "full" benefit of all the flavors mixing together if you try to taste the kraut too soon. It's all about the process.

 

By the time the Duke gets to HIS maximum capacity for putting up with Thursday.. and by the time Thursday has made all the bad choices he does at the end of the story... the whole "kitchen" is full of the smell of kraut.. and we totally understand why.. and how... Thursday's downfall happens as a result. There is no denying it, now that we have just seen everyone in the pot, simmering to a boil all throughout the entire film laying the groundwork for again.. what I believe had to be one of the most arrogant and foolish plans a military leader could devise.

 

Thursday wanted to prove himself and have his big moment in the sun... and sadly he got it.. the sun.. AND a bunch of buzzards circling overhead.

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Woo Hoo... now THAT was a fun read, Miss Maven. My golly it was like reliving all the best parts of that movie all over again. Wowsa. :-)

 

Just the ordering of dinner by these two hitmen/henchmen was contentious. Every time I heard the phrase ?bright boy? I cringed.

 

Oh my gosh.. when they started ordering everybody around... asking them for their names and telling them what to do.. ha. ALL before they ever even SHOWED a gun.. oh me..I was LIVID. (They kept saying "what's your name... and I shouted back... "Who wants to know" ha. I'd have lasted about 10 seconds in there before they'd have blown my head off.. ha. But GEE they were making me mad.ha)

 

And PS.. you were NOT alone in catching the waiter's kindess to the cook w/ the glass of water.. you could tell he really cared about that guy.. It really said a lot about their friendship. I liked that part a lot.

 

The burial of Ole was sad, and the scene made me think of something from an old Frankenstein movie. Was that a painted backdrop of the clouds? It was moody shot

 

It was a moody shto.. and it did look like a painting.. I really thought it was beautiful and tragic, all at the same time.

 

love how Virginia Christine is revealed in the movie.

 

Wasn't she something? I wanted her to have a bit more time on screen as well. The scene you bring up where she realizes "the ship had sailed" was VERY well put together. You could totally read her mind (even if she had not been narrating the flashback)

 

*Don?t ask a dying man to lie his soul into hell!!?*

I think that is one of the greatest lines in movies. And yes, I felt sorry for her

 

Oh wow... it WAS a great line.. and I can't believe I am saying this (after the long drawn out Tony and Tom chat I had w/ the Grey Dude..ha) But you are a lot nicer than I am because I did NOT feel sorry for her!! Not one bit. I was glad, so very glad... so very, very glad she was getting what she deserved. HA!! (Did I mention I was glad?) ha.

 

I repeat what I said at the beginning of all this last night.. because it LITERALLY was my first thought after the end of the film..

 

Kitty is innocent! Kitty is INNOCENT?????? HA!! Kitty is TOAST!!! (and I say again.. now THAT was a happy ending!!)

 

Thanks Miss Maven for that VERY excellent "Walk" on the Noir Side... you are quite the "ambler", kid. :-)

 

OH and PS.. thanks for bringing up Charleston too... I loved his addition to the whole story.. he did sort of remind you of the little guy from TSSR)

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Feb 26, 2010 12:37 PM

[A Walk on the Noir Side]

Hi Ms Cinemafan..

 

The Swede seemed even dumber (at times) than DumDum. Maybe it was all those fights he was in

 

He DID seem a few bricks shy, so to speak, sometimes. I think it might have been due in part to the fact that he was WAY so very WAY out of his element. I don't think he was a bad guy... but he was spending a LOT of time hanging out with the bad guys... and making some VERY bad choices.... and it was because of Kitty... probably almost totally because of her.

 

You are right. he DID fall hard for her.. did you see the look on his face when he walked in to that room after getting out of prison??? (and PS... he had only BEEN in prison because he had lied to protect HER!!) And she more or less had totally blown him off and completely ignored him the whole time he was away.. but still... when he walked in and saw her sitting there, tight sweater and all.. OH my.. ha. I had to laugh... because he had one of those "looney tune" cartoon moments..ha. His eyes bugged out of his head and his chin just about dropped off and his tongue all but flopped out of his mouth.. ha. All that was missing was steam coming out of his ears and some sort of loud whistle sound effects.

 

Anyway... ha.. you have it right... the way she had him hooked.. he was dumber than a box of rocks.

 

PS... Burt's voice and hair were amazing

 

THAT is too true.... and that is yet another piece of the why I am not too big on Burt puzzle.... USUALLY... his voice and hair are... I don't know... PERFECT. And in this movie.. they had good days and bad.. His voice and hair both... He would go from.. rumpled, and crumpled, to cool and polished, back to rumpled and crumpled again... I liked it!! :-)

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Feb 26, 2010 11:52 AM

[Our Favorite Brunettes]

Here is my favorite George song

 

That one's a beauty...

[Wagon Master (1950) - January 16, 2009 1:00 p.m. EST]

I have a lot of dirt to hide!

 

You mean there is even MORE dirt than we have seen already???????????????