misswonderly3

> {quote:title=C.Bogle wrote:}{quote} > I don't know if there is more of a love it or hate it feeling about westerns than > there is about other genres. I find that, along with horror, the Western is a genre about which I hear people (especially women) saying: "I don't like Westerns. I'll watch any kind of movie, except a Western." That is why I used that phrase in the thread title. But really, I'm not making a definitive statement about how I perceive people's opinions on the genre. I was just trying to generate a discussion about Westerns. (Perhaps I should have entitled the thread, "Westerns: can we talk?" )

Funny thing is, I understand why many people, especially women, don't like them. They think they're boring, with unsophisticated dialogue, overly simple plots, one-dimensional characters, and not enough female characters -or, if there are female characters, they're even more stereotypical than the males. I have found this to be the case with many of the older Westerns, pre-1939 ( *Stagecoach* was a turning point), and a lot of the "B' Westerns. But there are a lot, especially from the 50s, that are much deeper and more interesting than that. *Destry Rides Again* is not only a refreshingly different take on the whole "gun slinger" theme -imagine Jimmy Stewart refusing to carry a gun - it's quite funny, and it's got a meaty role for a female character. Marlene Dietrich is quite fun in this. It's one Western that even many women enjoy. There are also some crossover "noir" Westerns ; *Rancho Notorious* (Marlene again ! ), *Johnny Guitar* (Sterling Hayden and Joan Crawford in a Western/noir/Joan-o-drama ), and *Pursued*,Robert Mitchum with a little drama of his own. All of the above, including *Stagecoach,* feature strong female characters, memorable dialogue, and psychological depth. Not what some people associate with Westerns.

Kinokima, if you like *Rio Bravo* you may want to see Hawks' own remake of it: *El Dorado*. This time the Dean Martin character is played by Robert Mitchum. Both versions drag a little around the half-way point, but it's the characters that make this Western story interesting. (I think Howard Hawks even made it a third time, but I can't remember its title.) MyFavouriteFilms, thanks for the heads up about *The Furies*. I've never seen it. With a cast that includes Walter Huston ("Stumpy" from *Rio Bravo* by the way) and Barbara Stanwyk, and with Anthony Mann at the helm, I'm sure its worth checking out. Aargh, I am so wrong. I don't know why I always get those two Walters mixed up. Of course it's Walter Brennon who plays Stumpy, not Walter Huston. Edited by: misswonderly on Feb 2, 2011 8:01 PM Edited by: misswonderly on Feb 2, 2011 8:02 PM

Great line, that. Kind of sums up a lot about all that killing that goes on in Westerns. Great film. I love *Unforgiven*, I consider it to be one of Eastwood's very best films. However, I also think of it as almost a post-Western. It's kind of a like an elegy to the Western. Also, there's so much to say about it, it almost could use a thread of its own.

Ok, I literally asked for that. Comedy is such a subjective and personal thing. I find the Marx Brothers, particularly their earlier work, to be deliciously manic, chaotic, and fun; a celebration of the joy of wordplay (Groucho and actually, Chico too) and slapstick (Harpo.) Even when they don't make me laugh, they make me smile.

Lots of really interesting comments and ideas here. My own favourite kind of Western is the one where the hero is undergoing some kind of inner struggle, he's realizing for the first time maybe, that in between black and white, there's grey. (Kind of film noirish, actually.) Most of Anthony Mann's Westerns fall into this category. I love the performances in these films, particularly James Stewarts' -who always seems cynical and impatient with b*s*, thinks he's only out for himself, but has some kind of moral epiphany before the end of the movie. Just to name a few: *Winchester 73* (with Shelley Winters along for the ride), *The Man from Laramie* (moving performances from Arthur "I look like Van Hefflin" Kennedy and sweet Cathy O'Donnell), and, my favourite Mann/Stewart Western, *The Naked Spur*. Love Robert Ryan in this.All the characters in *The Naked Spur* (all four of 'em) are complex, intelligent, neither evil nor virtuous. I love the penultimate scene with Jimmy Stewart in such psychological turmoil and Janet Leigh looking both horrified and sympathetic. Edited by: misswonderly on Feb 2, 2011 2:51 PM

> {quote:title=mrroberts wrote:}{quote} > Misswonderly better hope that Joel McCrea doesn't find out about Ty Power being in her shower, we could have another gunfight at the O K Corral. Does this mean that now we're bringing Burt Lancaster into it? or Kirk Douglas? (I'd take Burt.) Ah,it seems I find myself in the enviable position of deciding between Mr. Power in the shower, or Mr. McCrea in the hay...at least in my cinematic imagination. Must keep in mind that this is a decent G-rated website. Either gentleman would be a welcome Star of the Month.

I'm putting this out on the "General Discussions" forum and not the "Westerns" forum because it is a given that those who go on the latter like Westerns. I'm interested in hearing from people who are positive, negative, and ambivalent about them. In other words, a general discussion. I used to loathe Westerns before I knew any better, when I was young and foolish. Then I had to study them in a film course on genres, and realized what I'd been missing. They're still not my favourite type of movie, there are many that bore me or leave me cold, but when a Western is good, it rises above its genre and joins the ranks of films that have something to say, films that we always remember. Any takers?

How come so many people (even many on this thread) don't like the Marx Brothers? I don't get it...what's not to like?

Tyrone Power ! Tyrone Power ! Wouldn't mind finding him in my shower ! ...or even finding him as Star of the Month.

LonesomePolecat, I would have thought your favourite musical number would have been "Lonesome Polecat", from *Seven Brides for Seven Brothers*.

"Down in Mexico" is a very slinky Coasters song that sort of tells a story. I don't know what it is about this tune, but it seems to bring out the pornographic urge in people. All the videos I checked for it had some quasi-pornographic element to them. So I picked two, the first one being just a squeaky clean pic of the Coasters, and the second being a video . If you choose the video, don't say I didn't warn everyone that this is a family website. family version: semi-porn version:

> {quote:title=finance wrote:}{quote} > When I think Kraftwerk, I think of Mike Meyers Yes, he was the "Dieter" character in the Sprokets sketches. And a very funny, poe-faced, serious intellectual German he was (am I being politically incorrect? ) Remember that dance he'd do at the end of the sketch?

I've heard of Manhattan Transfer, but not that song. Since the clip doesn't seem to actually specify it's by Manhattan Transfer, I hope I got the right one:

I hadn't even heard of that one, let alone seen it. I see it stars Virginia (hold the) Mayo. Here's a link about it: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041374/ any good?

> {quote:title=Arturo wrote:}{quote} > This should actually be two different threads. The title says one thing (and the epics cited thus far fit this), but NONE of the much more intimate dramas with ensemble playing: GRAND HOTEL, THE BIG CHILL, etc.) should be linked with the gargantuan epics from the 1910s on. Arturo, I agree. Also, a film with a "cast of thousands", or even dozens, is hardly the same as a cast of, say, one dozen, which is pretty much the maximum number of characters Altman or Anderson ever used. A story about a handful of characters, 8 to 10, is very different from an epic.

THE GRAPE-NUTS of WRATH : A starving family, rendered destitute by the Depression, drought, and Ma's profligate ways, turns to the production of the fibre-filled breakfast cereal in an attempt to haul themselves out of the morass of poverty to which they have been reduced. Hero Tom Joad thinks the little wheat berries will be the family's salvation, but is crushed when he learns that Americans have turned away from cereal and are now pursuing avocado smoothies for their morning energy boost. Further complications await the Joads when the brutal Californian police burst into the Joad abode and arrest Tom, claiming the Post corporation is charging him with copyright violations... "So, yer sayin' ya think goat's milk will add that certain je ne sais quoi to the Grape Nuts ? " Edited by: misswonderly on Feb 1, 2011 2:41 PM Edited by: misswonderly on Feb 1, 2011 4:36 PM

I've heard that there was serious talk at one time of a film version of a J.D. Salinger story which would have had Jane Fonda in the lead role. Of course, Salinger wouldn't co-operate...

> {quote:title=finance wrote:}{quote} > Wasn't that concept originated with, e.g., GRAND HOTEL, WEEKEND AT THE WALFORF, TALES OF MANHATTAN, and SEPARATE TABLES? Yes, I'd say all of the above. Guess they were doing it long before Altman came along (of course, Robert Altman had a unique directing style...) MFF, I'd say *Crash* (the second one) and *Grand Canyon* do fall into that category too. Personally, I really like that type of film; of course, it has to be well-done or it can just end up being chaotic and messy. But I think all the ones listed here, both classic and newer, "work".

Greta Garbo ! Greta Garbo ! The same mystique If her name had been "Margo" ?

Maybe we should run with this...what are some noirish women's names? (besides "Cathy", which actually isn't very noirish. Jane Greer is what made her noirish.)

JOEL McCREA ! JOEL McCREA ! 24/7, for 31 day (s) ! well, that might be a bit much even for the most ardent JOEL McCREA ! fans. Should I go back to haikus?

> {quote:title=clearskies wrote:}{quote} > What a fun thread! At the moment I can't really add to it. In reading the responses I find that I changed my mind a lot about what my answers would be. As far as Fred & Ginger go I think the dance number I liked best was "Dancing in the Dark," but then again, maybe not. clearskies, I too love that number, Dancing in the Dark. It's flawless dancing to a wonderful moody song, music by Arthur Schwartz and lyrics by Howard Dietz. Fred and his partner really get across a bittersweet mood, the kind of yearning feeling that some of his best "quieter" dances were all about (like Never Gonna Dance in *Swingtime*.) I hope you don't mind if I respectfully mention that Fred's partner in Dancing in the Dark was actually Cyd Charisse, the number being from *Band Wagon* (it's very easy to get some of Fred's numbers mixed up, I know, he made so many...)

Hey, MFF, I agree too. We agree on something ! Both Anderson and Altman liked to make films involving several different stories with different characters, which somehow connect. I like that.

Well, I don't know how you found this out, but the fact is that I use a large zucchini as a tennis racquet. It's a little awkward, and often the racket breaks, but I sure stand out in the tennis court.