AndyM108

Passable to first rate actress in a few good movies ( They Shoot Horses..., Klute, Walk on the Wild Side ), but a persona that's like fingernails on a blackboard. And even though I'm as liberal as anyone and thought that the Vietnam war was hopelessly misguided at best, her "Hanoi Jane" label was a rather precisely accurate way of describing her shameful role during that period. Even during that Osborne interview tonight, you had a definite feeling that this was a woman who's carried a chip on her shoulder since the day she was born. I wouldn't want to have been raised in that Fonda family, either, so I can sympathize with her in that, but at some point I wish she could have learned to relax and treat her life as a journey rather than as a constant battle.

I also feel that Babs persona is less intense than that of Kate or Bette. As I said before Bette could also downplay her persona in roles like The Corn Is Green and All This and Heaven Too, but still in most of Bette's standout performances the Bette persona clearly is there to see. With Kate I believe this is even more so. I agree that Bette and Kate play their outsized "selves" in a much higher percentage of their films than Stanwyck, but when Stanwyck needed to, she could ramp it up with the best of them: Think of Baby Face , Ladies of Leisure and The Miracle Woman , as well as some of her later movies like Martha Ivers and The Violent Men . The above is one of the reasons I believe Babs is more universally loved by classic movie fans than say Kate or Bette. For some their persona is just too much for them to take. Me, I love them all. Well, Davis is right behind Stanwyck in my personal pantheon of actresses, and Hepburn makes my top 10, so I don't have anything against their personae per se . It's just that in Hepburn's case, in too many of her early movies her persona is either laughingly miscast ( Spitfire ) or inappropriately exaggerated ( Alice Adams, Morning Glory ) Despite those curious early awards, I don't think she really began to find her groove until Stage Door. From that point on, and particularly beginning with her screwballs with Grant and her pairings with Tracy, her persona fit her roles far better, and she became a lot better in holding it down. Stanwyck's persona was more of a generalized intensity and intelligence that she applied in pitch-perfect proportions to her parts as the scripts demanded. She could easily dominate your *interest* while *not* trying to dominate the movie (as Davis and Hepburn often did). That's the sort of talent that's one of the rarest qualities in an actor or actress, and it's the main reason she'll always be at the top of my list.

Hmmmmm, then, what about this one? http://www.vulcannonibird.de/noni/films/night/night-promo02.jpg

*I find it interesting that with all this talk of the auteur theory, I don't think there's been one mention of Orson Welles*. That was a deliberate omission because personally, I believe that Welles could film himself for two hours on a toilet seat and be praised for it. I'm not even partial to TOUCH OF EVIL, a film that I find quite stylistic but so full of holes that I can't enjoy it. I do love his 40s work and understand that much of his output later on was compromised by meager budgets and studio interference. But he's such a sacred cow that it's a subject I avoid. Well, after many years, I'm glad I finally found someone else who's less than thrilled with Touch of Evil and Welles in general. Welles could be a damn good actor in many of his films (particularly in Trent's Last Case , Compulsion and The Third Man ) , but in some of his movies such as The Stranger and Touch of Evil his acting and / or directing are so completely over the top that it just leaves me rolling my eyes. And for "overrated", he wins the bleeping Oscar.

I scarcely know what to make of Ryder these days, as my everlasting memory of her will always be that of a foul-mouthed and somewhat androgynous taxi driver in Jim Jarmusch's Night on Earth , a film which I would LOVE to see sometime soon on TCM. AFAIC both she and Rosie Perez should have won Oscars for their roles in that most sublime of modern era comedies.

Sorry if my post seemed to confuse you, Swithin. I thought that the format clearly indicated a demarcation between your words and the ones below it, but I should have explicitly noted that the two paragraphs below were written by JonnyGeetar. My bad, and my apologies. As for what Hepburn could or couldn't have played, my skepticism about her versatility is flagged by comparing her rather overwrought performances in her earlier films ( Alice Adams, Spitfire**, Sylvia Scarlett , etc.) to Stanwyck's mastery of her roles in Baby Face, The Miracle Woman, Night Nurse and many others. If I had to find a common thread among her failures, it's that she was congenitally incapable of convincingly portraying women who were more than a small step below the class she was born into. Whereas Stanwyck could play women from the bottom to the top of the social scale with equal authenticity. Maybe it was just that accent of Hepburn's that got in the way and limited her range, because very few women outside a certain part of New England ever *talk* like that. **Surely one of more embarrassing acting jobs by an actor or actress on Hepburn's talent level. If Katharine Hepburn was a hillbilly, then William Bendix was Babe Ruth.

> {quote:title=Swithin wrote}{quote} > I think there is much more subtlety and variety in Hepburn's work than she is given credit for here. She did a considerable amount of Shakespeare. I don't think I can see Stanwyck touring with the Old Vic.Well yes, but can you see Hepburn in Double Indemnity or Ball of Fire ? Or even Sorry, Wrong Number ?- which is a film whose success is owed in entirety to the fact that Stanwyck is about the only actress who could pull off the mix of being unlikeable and yet compelling that is required. The end to that movie is such a stunner because we don't expect such a thing to happen to Barbara Stanwyck. Being a smart actor means knowing your limits and what's right (or wrong) for you. And you never know, Stanwyck may well have stunned as Lady Macbeth had she been given the chance, I just don't think she had the interest or thought that sort of thing would be the right fit. (Stanwyck had a very modern appearance and sensibility, in fact I can't think of many period pieces that she did outside of her westerns and Man With a Cloak ) . You hit upon a very good point here when you refer to Stanwyck's "very modern appearance and sensibility", which is one of the reasons I think that her stature has been growing so much with the recent greater availability of her films, especially her pre-code work. And then there's the matter of her range and versatility.... Allowing for my faulty memory, Stanwyck played tramps and other assorted lowlifes in the pre-code era, and much older women in So Big, Stella Dallas and The Great Man's Lady . She also portrayed femmes fatales , stouthearted working girls, betrayed wives, betraying wives, steely executives, terrorized victims, ruthless social climbers, scheming con artists, addicted gamblers, burlesque hoofers, western sharpshooters and probably a lot more. About the only genres she never appeared in were costume dramas and sci-fi / fantasy, but that's in line with her preference for roles that were more modern and realistic. By contrast, about the only type of role that Hepburn played in that Stanwyck didn't were the queens and such of those costume dramas, and for many critics her performances there put her in the Olivier category as a more "serious" performer. Other than that, there was nothing that Hepburn ever did that Stanwyck didn't do as well or better, while there are plenty of roles that Stanwyck played to perfection that were clearly out of Hepburn's talent box. BTW none of the above is intended as a slam at Hepburn, who's also one of my favorite actresses and whom I'll defend against the bogus "overrated" (not to mention "anorexic") charges I've seen on this thread. But for versatility, emotional range, and sheer professionalism from one movie to the next, there's *never* been an actress the equal of Barbara Stanwyck.

But as I saw her (Katharine Hepburn) in other films over the years, and as I saw more of her early films, that's what gave me the creeps. Mainly her early films. I just couldn't imagine those handsome young men wanting to kiss her, because she looked so creepy. Yeah, I can't even imagine why any red-blooded man would ever want to get next to a young woman who looked like this: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8UAi4IuvfH4/TiBY2_ee2bI/AAAAAAAAK1s/naUiX96BFBQ/s1600/600full-katharine-hepburn.jpg She was a real Margaret Hamilton, all right.

AFAIC anyone who watches the first three Hepburn-Grant movies that TCM has been showing tonight, and still thinks that Katharine Hepburn isn't at the very least a first rate comedienne---is either just plain crazy or completely lacking a sense of humor. She's got perfect comic timing and a perfect comic touch, and with Grant to complement her it's a combination that can't be beat.

By the way, in referring to the "ham" of Muni or Barrymore, I also want to restate that I'm only thinking of some of their performances, particularly in the latter parts of their careers. I can also think of wonderful work done by both of them, as well. Muni is an actor who had a great reputation at the time, but of all of the movies of his I've seen (about a dozen), the only ones that really stand out are I Am A Fugitive From A Chain Gang, Bordertown, Hi Nellie! (a great comedy with Glenda Farrell) and to a limited extent, Scarface and The Last Angry Man . The biopics are wooden, some of his social dramas are overplayed, and in his first movie ( The Valiant , which just screened on TCM a few days ago) he sounded like a nearsighted man trying to read an eye chart. No human being that ever lived could possibly talk that slowly. I'm glad I began watching him in his pre-code years, because if I'd started with his later biopics I wouldn't have even bothered to look at any of his earlier films.

What does it mean when an actor is called underrated? Does it mean the critics don't (or didn't) give them their due? Or that the fans don't recognize their talent? I think that when a performer isn't as well remembered by today's general public as others (ie William Powell vs John Wayne) some folks mistakenly say that he/she is underrated. Even if there's a solid consensus among the ones who pay attention that said actor is definitely among the greats. Which means they're not really underrated. Good points. I think that "underrated" is often just used as a synonym for "largely forgotten by the public today" as opposed to "underappreciated by true film buffs". And it's all in the eyes of the beholder. My own favorite, Barbara Stanwyck, is relatively forgotten today compared to (say) Marilyn Monroe or Elizabeth Taylor, but I can hardly imagine a film critic who's seen more than half a dozen of her films who would seriously rank her acting ability below those two. ( Whether or not critics or buffs *like* her more than Monroe or Taylor is another question altogether.) Where I do see a gap is between the opinions of the AFI "legends" voters and the opinions of cultists, a description which I have to admit fits me. From where I sit, the AFI judges are mostly interested in what they see as "star" quality, and they tend to underrate actors who lack outsized personalities. These lists also----obviously----favor those actors who managed to live long lives, or very short lives with tragic deaths, and actors whose screen personae reflect the sort of broadly defined "character" that they identify with, for whatever reason. Perhaps this is why the AFI uses the term "legends" in their rankings of actors and actresses rather than a less subjective word. And perhaps this is why I suspect very few of us here pay much attention to the AFI in formulating our own opinions about actors.

VX, I'm well aware of Donald Richie, and you might note that I didn't say that Mike Jeck knows *more* than anyone about Japanese films, only that nobody else knows more than he does. If you ever get the chance to talk to Mike, you'll understand that I didn't make my comment lightly. Lack of high visibility doesn't necessarily equal a lack of knowledge.

That must be the Jefferson Market Library that's housed in the same building as the old women's penitentary, overlooking Patchin Place. When I first started visiting my aunt in the early 60's, when she was out on Sixth Avenue with a cup raising money for the Freedom Riders, you could look across the street from her window and see the inmates sticking their nose through the bars and cursing at the passersby down on the street. Back in the early heyday of the Village, when John Reed wrote for The Masses (1911-17), the artist Glenn Coleman did a wonderful illustration of the Jefferson Market Jail on the back cover of a 1914 issue, which you can see here: http://www.georgetownbookshop.com/display2.asp?id=495 This is from a poster website I own which features, among many other items, several dozen posters taken from covers of that great radical publication. John Sloan was its art editor, and it employed many of the great artists of the period, such as George Bellows, Stuart Davis, Maurice Becker, Robert Minor, Art Young, and many others too numerous to mention.

My aunt Marnie (Margaret Cook) lived in a studio apt. at 9 Patchin Place for the last 50 years of her life. At the time of her death in 1989, at the age of 93, her rent was still only $99.56 a month. Thank God for rent control, which was the only way that she could have afforded to live on that rapidly gentrifying block for all those years. New York City is a far poorer place without people like her around. She was a hatmaker by trade, and spent a hugely disproportionate amount of her time among theatre people, both the famous and the far more numerous obscure. Of course this was at a time when Broadway theatre prices weren't targeted almost exclusively to the upper 1%, and off-Broadway plays could often be seen for a dollar or even less. Besides John Reed and Louise Bryant, both obviously before my aunt's time, some of the more famous Patchin Place residents BITD were e.e. cummings and Djuna Barnes, who in her later years was a famous recluse. My aunt could vouch for the oft-told stories about how a besotted Henry Miller would yell up to Djuna at the top of his lungs---" *Hey, Djuna, come on out! What're you hiding up there for?* "

I have a friend, Michael Jeck, who writes many of the program notes for the Film Forum in New York, and who used to be one of the main programmers at the AFI. If anyone knows more about Japanese movies than Mike, I've yet to meet or hear about this person. All of which is to say that when I asked him about Kurutta ippêji yesterday, his first reaction was to curse the fact that he wasn't going to be able to see it because of a schedule conflict. His second reaction was to say that it was one of the best, if not the best, of all the Japanese silents, and that I should drop everything if I hadn't already seen it, which I haven't. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to this film and believe me, I've got my DVD recorder all primed.

Andy, I'm afraid I take exception to your "one of us" argument," though I know alot of people think that way. Growing up in NYC (though certainly not rich), and spending alot of time in the nearby CT suburbs, I feel alot more comfortable with Kate Hepburn as a person than I do with some other actors. There's something solid in Kate, that goes way beyond glitter and show business. I completely agree, and I thought I was merely expressing a POV that seems to be an undercurrent of much of the criticism I hear about her, rather than wanting to echo it myself. I had an aunt who lived on Patchin Place in the Village who was about 12 years older than Hepburn, who knew her briefly during her Broadway days, and who found her completely down to earth. As you so well put it, there was something solid about her that transcends "glitter and show business". She's far from being my favorite actress, but that's mostly because the two Hollywood genres I'm most in love with (pre-code nitty-gritty drama; noir) didn't feature much in her career, and the one genre I absolutely detest (historical drama / historical biopics) was one she returned to time and again. But as a person, other than my personal Goddess Stanwyck I can't think of anyone I'd rather have had a chance to meet and talk to.

I think that much of the resentment against Hepburn is the feeling that she's not really "one of us". Call her the John Kerry of the movie biz if you will. Not that any movie star is ever really "one of us", but with Hepburn it seems (to some people, anyway) that she goes out of her way to emphasize the point. I like Hepburn in spite of all that nonsense, but I can see where it's coming from. There are always going to be some stars whose screen presence just leaves us cold for whatever rational or irrational reason. I can scarcely bear to watch ANY movie starring Gregory Peck or Dustin Hoffman, and I can take Spencer Tracy's permanent chip on his shoulder only in very small doses, preferably when he's being bamboozled and kept in check by the likes of Powell, Loy and Harlow. I couldn't really defend my attitude beyond saying that Peck seems as stiff as a corpse and Hoffman's always playing in movies I wouldn't like anyway, and obviously both of these are totally subjective opinions. But I guess this is why I'm just a film fan and not a film critic.

Finally got a chance to watch Obsession last night, and I'd give it a 9. It's certainly "British" in its rather clinical and detached approach to murder**, with relatively little character development, and of course with the archtype Scotland Yard superintendent who could have been given a mustache and transported straight to the John Williams character in Dial M For Murder . As a generic type, I find the American and French noir movies far more interesting and engaging, but as a change of pace from what we usually get on TCM, I was very glad to get a chance to see a very well done version of the Albion brand. **Perhaps best embodied by the wife's refusal to call the police for many months, even thinking that her lover might still be alive, due to her even greater fear of social embarrassment.

I've got totally conflicting views about Katharine Hepburn. Can't stand anything she was in prior to Stage Door . The plots are stupid, her performances are overwrought, and there are no saving graces whatever. Absolutely loved Holiday , Bringing Up Baby , and The Philadelphia Story . The last two of those are among the top 5 screwballs of all time, just below All About Eve , Bombshell and Libeled Lady . Never was that much of a fan of her Tracy movies, although they're at least bearable. But that's partly because I usually can't stand Tracy's standard persona of a pigheaded Irishman. Their celebrated on-screen banter just seems predictable and formulaic. She's infinitely funnier and sexier when she's paired with Grant. Really liked Undercurrent , and wish she'd made more movies along those lines. Hated The African Queen , a movie whose every plot turn you could predict as easily as a Southeast Asian monsoon. Wouldn't watch her costume dramas if you paid me. As a person I found her generally admirable and endlessly fascinating, not to mention drop-dead gorgeous, especially in her earlier years, but she never really lost her fine features. A bit full of herself, perhaps, but I could live with that. Though I doubt if I'd much want to read her memoirs. But the main thing I love about Katharine Hepburn is that whenever I've heard her speak or be interviewed, I get the feeling I'm getting the real deal, rather than a string of studio-teleprompted weasel words. Every woman I've known is crazy about her, and so are the non-bimbo-loving men, regardless of their opinion of her films. The story of Hollywood would be far poorer without her.

Personally, I'm glad that Disney keeps its product so closely guarded. We've got enough schlock on TCM already that crowds out many of the better old movies. The only great films Disney ever produced were the early Donald Duck / Mickey Mouse cartoons from about 1935 to 1955 ( Moving Day, The Band Concert, Donald's Dream Voice , etc.), and you can see most of these anytime you want on YouTube.

In rough order: *Male Actors:* Toshiro Mifune Jean Gabin (fairly big gap) Robert Ryan Al Pacino (another gap) Glenn Ford *Actresses:* Barbara Stanwyck (Big gap) Bette Davis Judy Davis (small gap) Jean Harlow Joan Crawford *Combined:* Mifune/Gabin/Stanwyck in a three-way tie Bette Davis/Ryan tied for 4th *Character Actors, using a floating definition of the term, and in an order that changes about five times a week:* Edward Arnold Wallace Beery Nat Pendleton Guy Kibbee Charles Coburn *Five Actors / Actresses I can do without:* Gregory Peck Marlon Brando Orson Welles Jane Fonda Dustin Hoffman

I am SO glad that we're getting some Boston Blackies for the first time in what seems like a very long while. These "serial" movies like Boston **** (Chester Morris), The Lone Wolf (Warren William), Torchy Blaine (Glenda Farrell) are particularly enjoyable for giving us what amounts to a last look at some of our favorite actors from the 30's whose stars began to fade by the end of that decade. I've seen plenty of movies with Bogart, Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn that couldn't keep me in my seat for 15 minutes, but I can't remember ever turning off a film with Chester Morris, Warren William or Glenda Farrell before it was over. It isn't that the movies were always that great, it's just that these actors had such a great screen persona that it more than made up for any deficiencies in the plots.

Great links, kyle. It's especially cool to hear LaGuardia's voice after all these years. All I can remember out of him was reading the Sunday comics over the radio when the newspapers went on strike, and even that was from a re-broadcast many years after he died. What's interesting also is just how *SLOWLY* he spoke every word, as if he were reading from "My Pet Goat" or something.

There's only one surefire way not to miss a movie, and that's to copy and paste the movies you want to see from the TCM schedule pages onto a Word document, in the form of a monthly calendar. Of course TCM's made that solution about 50 times harder to do now than it was up through last Spring, since it's completely ruined the format of their monthly schedules, but it's still a lot easier than having to rely on reminders or watch lists.

Rather than get all esoteric, I'll restrict myself to a few fairly mainstream films that aren't particularly hard to find on DVD or Netflix, but for some reason haven't been on TCM in the past 2 or 3 years, either due to copyright issues of simple oversight on the part of the programmers: Double Indemnity Criss Cross The Killing (not to be confused with The Killers, which shows here a lot) Sudden Fear Easy Living (the Jean Arthur / Edward Arnold movie from 1937, not the Victor Mature / Lizabeth Scott 1949 film that played last week) Sullivan’s Travels The Great McGinty Body and Soul Dracula (the Lugosi version) The Color of Money Glengarry Glen Ross The Godfather (all three)