AndyM108
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Posts posted by AndyM108
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..and Grant told Warner that if Rex Harrison wasn't cast as Henry Higgins, he wouldn't even go to SEE the film.
That's one more feather for Grant's hat. Since Harrison had defined the stage role, he was the obvious choice once Warner had gotten his Big Name for Eliza.
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Your analysis doesn't explain how the '50s film comedy SOME LIKE IT HOT, which happens to co-star Monroe (though she WAS clueless) is ranked by AFI the greatest comedy ever. Thank God Billy Wilder wasn't working on TV.....Was Monroe clueless in ALL her later films? How about BUS STOP or THE MISFITS?
It's not hard to explain unless you think that everyone has some obligation to agree with the AFI's choices. I like Some Like It Hot, but I wouldn't put it in my top 25 comedies.
And I've said she was clueless in her comedies, not in every single movie she was in. I only wish she'd had more dramatic roles as in Don't Bother to Knock and Niagara. A few more films like that and I'd revise my opinion of her upwards, but in general her whole screen persona just leaves me cold. I'm not the only one who feels this way, but even if I were, what of it?
Bottom line: It's opinion based on subjective criteria. I can "explain" why I don't particularly care for Monroe, but only by my own standards, not by the standards of Norman Mailer or Gloria Steinem or Hugh Hefner or the esteemed critics who mark AFI ballots.
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And Capuchin, if you do have to leave, please come back as Capuchin2, or at any rate identify yourself, so that we can transfer our considerable affection for you appropriately.
And so we can put you on our multiple mailing lists.
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I've always found the name of the screenwriter "Lenore Coffee" worth savoring, in a "Madge Fudge" or "Johnny Machine" kind of way.
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I watched The Racket (9.5 on a 10 scale) and will catch Gentleman's Fate, and I'm recording the three in the middle. (The three earlier ones I recorded long ago.) I'm also looking forward to Big Night at 10:00 this evening, which I don't think I've ever seen before. This is definitely one of the highlight days of the month.
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AFAIC it all turned out for the best. When I want to hear the soundtrack, I've got the Broadway version, and when I want to see the movie I've got one of the best musical films ever made, without fretting that "Audrey's" songs are dubbed by Marni Nixon.
And thank God that Liz Taylor didn't get picked for the Eliza role.
She was much better cast in Virginia Woolf. -
Harlow's greatest work as a comedienne was, arguably, as the vulgar gold digging wife of Wally Beery in Dinner at Eight, just craving to get into high society.
The pre-code period has her best work (Red Dust, Bombshell, not to mention that wild sexy dance of her's in Beast of the City), but after the code was enforced MGM started trying to turn her into more family fare, all to her detrimentment as a performer. Hold Your Man, while still made during the code, after a great raunchy start, then decides to strip all the sex appeal away from both Harlow and Gable in the second half. It's almost symbolic of how Harlow's later efforts (excluding Libeled Lady) are less interesting to me.
Monroe's best comedy work was probably in her two Wilder comedies, Seven Year Itch and Some Like It Hot. Monroe also showed fine signs of being an effective dramatic performer in Bus Stop and The Misfits, while Harlow was modestly effective in Wife Versus Secretary (her potential for drama is there though the final effort in that film is a bit too muted, I feel).
That's a good distinction, and it kind of parallels the point I made about Marilyn's lack of comedy credentials. It's not that the potential wasn't there, but the writing talent had migrated to the small screen. I agree that other than Libeled Lady, Harlow's best work came before Joe Breen's Goon Squad stepped in to force the sublimation of every hint of sexual expression.
Monroe exudes far greater warmth than Harlow, who often comes across on screen as quite hard boiled (though, at times, with a touch of vulnerability, to be sure, but not nearly as much as MM).
That's a matter of taste. There are more than a few times when Harlow shows considerable warmth, particularly in the movies she made with Gable.
No matter how you slice it, Monroe's screen immortality is assured while Harlow is remembered primarily by fans of the Golden Era.
No question about that, but then that's like saying that JFK is better remembered by people today than Franklin D. Roosevelt. It's true, but it doesn't say much of any substance.
MM remains, I strongly suspect, the most famous actress in screen history. (Thus, I suspect, one of the key reasons why some like to knock her talents and dismiss her as a bimbo).
That may be true in some cases, but I just don't find her movies all that great. Other than The Asphalt Jungle and Don't Bother to Knock, I can't think of any other movie of hers I'd want to see again. But that's got nothing to do with surrogated "jealousy", and everything to do with my particular taste in comedy. Taste is individual.
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I'm glad you brought these films to our attention, because Louis Wolheim is way underrated, largely (I think) because he died in 1931 when sound pictures were just getting off the ground.
BTW for those who ever wondered about the origin of his signature boxer's nose, he got it playing football at Cornell. He also spoke German, French, Spanish and Yiddish, which further proves that first impressions can be deceptive.
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Okay, I'll try it with Firefox, which is what I use most of the time:
On Firefox, I just right clicked on the emoticon and copied the image location, and then pasted it here with the two ! ! bracketing the URL. Thanks for the elaboration.
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You're saying that Harlow left Monroe in the dust. I don't agree. I give her a slight edge.
I'm with James. Monroe's comic persona was pretty much limited to "clueless", while Harlow exhibited an wide range of comic talent that encompassed a multitude of moods and speech rhythms. Underneath the Bimbo surface, Harlow was almost always in full control of her situation, and when she got stymied in her wishes and ambitions the resulting outbursts were masterpieces of comic performance.
Think of her rants about "NOOOSEpapers" in Libeled Lady, or the way she reacted to news of William Powell's marriage to Myrna Loy by saying *"That's arson!"* with a totally deadpan face of outrage. There were a hundred Harlow moments like that in her short career that Monroe couldn't begin to match.
In fairness, Monroe might have developed into a passably good dramatic actress if she'd been given more roles like the ones she had in Don't Bother to Knock and Niagara. But we'll never know. Part of the problem is that in the 50's all the great comic writing was on TV. No 50's movie comedies were remotely on the same level as Your Show of Shows, or even I Love Lucy, because the center of comic gravity had migrated to the small box.
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I like gif emoticons-ones that move. I have several "libraries" of sites I visit....this one is pretty full (warning-can be raunchy!) Just pick a category at the top:
So let's see if this thing works.
http://home.no/femma/smilies/803.gif
Nope, doesn't look like it. How do you actually move those images onto here? Is there a secret code you have to know?
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Since I wish to keep on a positive track I agree with you that in many studio era films (films made before the 60s women movement), that most leading women are "multi-dimensional and nearly always interesting" while the bimbos are mostly the secondary characters.
But I'm very surprised you're so in love with the Harlow persona, which is clearly a borderline bimbo persona (if not full on), in most of her movies. In Red Dust Gable dismisses her because she is a bimbo. He decides to be with her at the end only because of honor and the fact there is no other women around. Once he meets a non bimbo Harlow will be forgotten.
In Libeled Lady, Harlow is less of a bimbo but still has the bimbo part compared to the Loy character. Yea, Harlow wasn't always cast as a bimbo (Wife and Secretary being one).
Physically, I don't find Harlow all that spectacular compared to Loretta Young or Clara Bow, but maybe it's just because I've read too many stories about the effects of her poor health on her breath.
But lord, do I love her screen persona as a whole. She's the funniest actress (on the screen, anyway) who ever lived, I LOVE her accent, she's almost always goodhearted, and she's got a personality the size of a house. Never once have I thought of her in any way as a Bimbo (except maybe in Hell's Angels, which I've only see once several years ago).
In fact, I might even say that if you don't love Jean Harlow, you don't love life.
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misswonderly, you said it better than I ever could, and you got it right. Mercy buckets, or whatever it is the French say on such occasions.
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Hibi, I hear what you are saying!!! My DVR is simply bursting!!!
Buy a DVD recorder and just make sure you have a spare closet for all those DVDs. Works for me.
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Anyone that knows me here knows I'm no fan of bimbos if they have read my comments about Monroe, Manfield, Harlow etc... I go for the Audrey Hepburn types.
(take the movie on last night; Red Dust, I'm a lot more attractive to the Astor character than the Harlow one).
Ok, Andy your giving a wink here again, I get that, but you still manage to insult anyone that doesn't agree with you with regards to Keaton, twice. So Dargo has you pegged.
Of course I love Harlow in Red Dust and she's in my all time top 5 of actresses. And I don't see much in Astor in just about any movie. But then I married the gamine to end all gamines, cut straight from the Audrey mold and still that way in her mid-50's. So I'm not always walking in a straight line.
And Keaton? Well, I just like her style (in Annie Hall, anyway), annoyances aside.* No actress can be as annoying in many instances as Katharine Hepburn, and yet to me her outsized personality and originality (as well as her looks) trump everything negative.
One thing I've noticed in the years of watching TCM: In the B&W studio era, the Bimbos are almost always relegated to secondary parts, usually as comic props who are also full of snappy one-liners. Whereas the leading women, aside from comedies, are always multi-dimensional and nearly always interesting. Maybe that's a good part of what leads me to go for movies from that era.
* Part of Annie's appeal is her invention of her own sense of fashion, which may have been just a gimmick but to me signaled a disregard for convention that I always find attractive. "Androgynous" or not, it's not too hard to figure out that there's a woman underneath the clothing.
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Most men are ATTRACTED to bimbos, like kids are to candy. But they couldn't live on a steady DIET of them. Which is why I always thought Paul Newman was eventually attracted to Joanne Woodward.
Sepiatone
Bingo. And that's yet another example of why Newman was always a cut above the average movie star.
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And you hold a tongue-tied neurotic who dresses pretty weird (not to mention asexually) as some sort of everyman's ideal?
As for not knowing who those actresses are, I guess movies of the 70's are not your thing - except the ones with Diane Keaton of course.
Wrong on all counts, but who am I to ruin a good narrative?
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So Andy. after that "most men prefer bimbos" line of yours, does this mean you're now down one more of that supply of little winky emoticons of yours???
'Cause I HOPE you once again just forgot to use one of 'em, 'cause I HOPE you know that that latest statement of yours was about as overblown as that previous one about Diane Keaton and "not loving life"!
Let's just say I've always found the *screen personae* of the Diane Keatons (in Annie Hall, at least) and the Ida Lupinos and the Liv Ulmanns and the Judy Davises a lot more appealing than those of the Marilyn Monroes and the interchangeable Playboy centerfold clones. Obviously this is simply a matter of taste, and not some sort of moral judgment, and equally obviously this has a lot to do with the quality of the movies they're cast in. I'm not trying to play St. Peter here.
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Bimbos? Like who? A contemporary of Keaton at the time of 'Annie Hall' was Cristina Raines - who I found to be very attractive. Would she be a bimbo?
How about Jessica Harper (another actress I found to be very attractive) - also a bimbo?
Kathleen Quinlan? Theresa Russell? Anne Archer?
Never even heard of any of them except for Jessica Harper, and I couldn't pick her out of a police lineup. But as a general point, I'm talking about screen personae, not real life. For all I know, the real Marilyn Monroe was every bit as much of a genius as some of her posthumous critics want to make her out to be.
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So here we have yet another case of someone (Andy), assuming a consensus when one doesn't actually exist. I learned this lesson in the June Alyson thread!
Tell you what: Here's a week's supply of emoticons to be used whenever it seems appropriate. Sorry I didn't use one when I made that remark about not loving life.
Don't get me wrong. I love Keaton in Annie Hall, but I'm enough attached to Earth to know that most men gravitate towards the bimbos.
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I agree mostly with your Hitch picks aside from Marnie, Parradine and Rope. I'm fond of Shadow of a Doubt........
Well, with Hitchcock there's something for everyone. I sure don't claim to speak for critics, although I think Marnie's reputation has been creeping somewhat upward as of late. Tippi Hedren is just fabulous in that complicated role.
And as for Shadow of a Doubt, I'm well aware that WRT to that film I many be in a minority of one. So be it.
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Oh, and Act of Violence is a solid noir. Heflin, Ryan and Astor; that is a strong crop of noir actors.
It sure is, but if it weren't for Astor's role in The Maltese Falcon, all three of those fine actors would barely be remembered today outside of TCM circles. Which is why it's so important to keep TCM around for another 500 years or so.
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Milland may be a little more well know than some of those "second tier" stars you mentioned because of the films he did late in his career. I know a few people that know next to nothing about studio era films and stars but they have heard of the movie The Man with Two Heads. Staring in a really bad camp color movie is one way to distance yourself from the rest of the pack!
(he was also in the sequel to Love Story,, my point being that color films made in the 70s may have been seen by NON classic (studio) era movie fans).
When was the last film Milland made where (a) Milland was the lead; and (
the film is seen as "iconic"? Being vaguely "remembered" is only part of the equation, and even with that, you'd have to be 50 to have seen even his *last* movie first run as an adult, being as how it was made in 1984. -
I'm a Milland fan. My two favourites are probably The Big Clock and Ministry of Fear.
Two of the absolutely greatest noirs ever. I could watch The Big Clock every year for the next 30 years (if I live that long) and never tire of it.
the film is seen as "iconic"? Being vaguely "remembered" is only part of the equation, and even with that, you'd have to be 50 to have seen even his *last* movie first run as an adult, being as how it was made in 1984.
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