AndyM108
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Posts posted by AndyM108
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I don't have anything against "31 Days", since I realize it's a good marketing tool for TCM to bring in new viewers. And since in the first exposure I had to it in 2010, there were scores of films I hadn't seen before, it'd be hypocritical of me to object now that it seems like mostly repeats.
But as for the Oscar ceremony, IMO it's like everything related to the Super Bowl except the game itself. On Super Bowl Sunday, I watch the game but mute everything else, from the pregame blather to the butchered Star-Spangled Banner to the commercials to the moronic halftime shows.
Similarly, when it comes to movies, I love the films themselves (at least many of them), but not the surrounding celebrity-driven hoopla that defines Oscar night, which is what Haskell is objecting to.
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Does this make the film a real classic? Maybe more of a real classic, with such a strong performance? Yet we have to ask ourselves whether or not the performance is complementary to the rest of the film as a whole, or does it seem like hogging the spotlight and throw everything off balance?
Another way of putting this might be, *"Does the performance tell us something we may not have known about the character, or does it mostly tell us something we already knew about the actor?"*
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Thanks for sharing, "notwanted", and welcome to the Forums.
All this essay does is to make me wish that we could see more of Molly Haskell on TCM (though not in February!), since she tells it like it is and she's right on nearly every count. My only disappointment is that apparently she'll break down and watch the damn thing anyway.
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I've always wanted to see North Dallas Forty, but now you've got me gunshy about Blow-Up, which I've recorded but haven't yet gotten around to watching.
As for The Conversation, I think my Wet Noodle award pretty much summarizes my opinion of it. IMO it's little more than a well acted generic drama movie, not nearly worthy of the praise handed out to it.* It had a certain noirish feel, in that there was much ambiguity and no admirable characters, but for whatever reason it just never grabbed me.
*I can't help but think that much of the praise for The Conversation was due to the fact that it was released right before Watergate reached its climax, at a time when concern about eavesdropping was at a then all-time high. There have been very few movies whose underlying sensibility so conveniently jibed with that of its most likely critics.
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I've seen so few movies from the 70's that I remember with any great fondness that I'm going to just list them all at once.
*1970*
1. King: From Montgomery to Memphis (the best documentary on the civil rights movement I've yet to see, including Eyes on the Prize)
2. The Sicilian Clan
3. I Never Sang For My Father
4. Bed and Board
Watched but didn't like:
Five Easy Pieces (Karen Black should have bopped Nicholson upside his head with that ketchup bottle)
*1971*
1. The Panic in Needle Park (You can see Pacino's greatness in his first feature film)
2. The Last Picture Show
3. The Anderson Tapes
4. Shaft
5. Klute
*1972*
1. The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds
2. Deliverance
3. The Godfather
4. Payday
5. Two Men in Town
6. Across 110th Street (Hey, that's where I was born)
8. Cabaret
9. Un Flic
10. Cries and Whispers
Best of the rest: Lady Sings the Blues
Worst movie of the decade: Last Tango in Paris
*1973*
1. Mean Streets
2. Serpico
3. The Friends of Eddie Coyle
4. The Sting (a bit generic, but still very well done)
5. Badlands
6. The Outfit
7. Scenes From a Marriage
8. The Paper Chase
*1974*
1. Godfather II
2. The Appreticeship of Duddy Kravitz
3. Chinatown
4. Death Wish
5. The Taking of Pelham 123
6. Thieves Like Us
Wet noodle award*: The Conversation
*1975*
1. Hard Times
2. Dog Day Afternoon
3. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
4. The Stepford Wives
5. Rollerball
*1976*
1. Taxi Driver
2. Rocky
3. All The President's Men
4. Network
5. Obsession
Wet noodle award: Hollywood on Trial (documentary)
Have to see: Harlan County, USA
*1977*
1. Animal House
2. Short Eyes
3. Annie Hall
Have to see: Killer of Sheep
Please, no: A Star Is Born (The 4th time was the curse)
*1978*
1. The Cheap Detective
2. Massacre Mafia Style (another one Ed Wood should've directed)
3. Days of Heaven
4. The Deer Hunter
5. Death on the Nile
*1979*
1. Angi Vera (greatest movie ever)
2. Breaking Away
3. Raging Bull
4. The Tin Drum
Wet noodle award: My Brilliant Career; Wise Blood
Have to see: The Europeans
*Best of the 1970's Decade* (not counting documentaries)
1. Angi Vera**
2. Mean Streets
3. Godfather II
4. Hard Times
5. Raging Bull
6. Animal House
7. The Panic in Needle Park
8. Taxi Driver
9. The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds
10. Serpico
(Hmm, it's not hard to tell who my two favorite actors of the 70's are, is it?
)* Wet noodle award: Not that bad but highly overrated
**One of these years TCM might get this greatest of all movies, but in the meantime I'll pay anyone $100 for a U.S.compatible subtitled DVD
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What kind of film would Richard Widmark & Jack Nicholson have made?
That's easy: *GATS AT THE GARDEN:* Featuring a courtside duel to the death between two hotheaded rival fans, set during the 7th game of a Knicks - Lakers NBA Finals.
Of course Spike Lee would be the director. That goes without saying.
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Lucille Ball and Jerry Lewis... Hasn't Jerry Lewis gone on record saying that he doesn't like female comediennes? I think he said something to the effect that female comediennes aren't funny.
If Jerry Lewis actually said that, it would be the first and last genuinely funny line that narcissistic moron ever spoke in his entire career.
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To try to answer point 1 ( the way I interpret this) , I believe the public has to relate to the film at the time it was made. So the film's popularity at the time it was made would be the way to measure that. But how do you judge a film that "bombed" when it was first shown and yet over time it has built up a popular following? Laughton's Night Of The Hunter comes to my mind for example. And of course there is the opposite side of the coin, a film that really scored big at its release but is poorly thought of today. Can a film be a legitimate classic and later lose its rating or visa versa?
I think we each have our own set of standards, and IMO it's a sad person who lets popularity (or the lack of it) guide his taste in movies or anything else.
That said, all our personal standards give us is a basis for argument. They certainly don't settle the issue of what films deserve a label of "classic" over the broader realm of critics and audiences. There are plenty of movies with 90% or better ratings from Rotten Tomatoes that I consider wildly overrated, and even more films hovering in the 50% range that I put near the top of my list.
But the key word there is "my". To go beyond that we have to figure out what most people (critics and audience) think are the most important factors in the makeup of a "classic" movie.
Hell, I just watched Die! Die! My Darling, and thought that Tallulah Bankhead's performance was nearly up to Bette Davis's memorable role in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? And yet the latter film got a 91% RT rating while the Bankhead movie got but 44%. That gap seems seriously out of whack to me, but I'd still be interested in finding out *why* Bankhead's stellar acting in Die! Die! seemed not to resonate very much across the board.
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I will admit I find this entire topic folly. One clue that it is folly is that "real classic" was used. To me having to put 'real' before 'classic shows that the term 'classic' doesn't have any actual meaning.
While I can define elements of a flim and film making that I like or even one could say require for me to enjoy a film, I would never say that these elements define a 'classic'.
Instead these elements only define my personal taste.
I certainly would never try to embellish my personal taste in movies by claiming any objective standard - - - I like what I like and that's about it - - - but I do think that TopBilled's exercise might well prove to be useful in seeing what sort of traits are most commonly found *in movies where the sense of being a "classic" has reached a strong critical consensus.*
IOW what combination of factors differentiate a universally regarded "classic" like Stella Dallas from the average studio era soaper? Unless I'm mistaken, that's what I think this thread is supposed to be about.
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*Alec Baldwin is a Commie rat!*
LOL
Another good addition here.
(...however Andy, I'm pretty sure you want to place a couple of these " around that description of Alec you just typed, OR some folks might get the wrong idea of what YOU really think of Mr.Baldwin)
Hey, what about the Commie peacenik who started TCM on its Primrose Path of Commie Rats and foreign movies? Wasn't he married to Hanoi Jane?
(Oh, all right.....)
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*Overall, for every modern star who's an attraction in himself / herself, there are 10 stars from the studio era who bring about that reaction in me.*
Maybe it's because you have had more years to be exposed to them and their films. In thirty or forty years from now, someone may come along (a lot of someones) who feel that way about Hopkins or Streep because they have seen endless repeats of THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS and OUT OF AFRICA.
Well, it's not so much that I've been exposed to the studio era stars for "more years". It's more that I've been exposed to TCM for the last 4 1/2! I blame all my biases on TCM!
But even so, and even though I think that the *best* movies from the post-studio era are better as a group than the best movies from the preceding generations, I still can't imagine I could ever warm to the generic movies of today as much as I cuddle up to those from the 30's and 40's that featured stars with distinctive *personalities,* and character actors who were as familiar as my pool room buddies.
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Alec Baldwin is a Commie rat!
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Funny, I just went to put Councillor at Law on my Netflix queue, and found out that it's currently unavailable. But then I also discovered that I rented it in early 2009 and gave it 4 stars out of 5. Stupid Alzheimer's!
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This topic caused a major stir here related to the Story of Film series. e.g. that many Hollywood movies are just silly fluff with the ONLY reasons they were made was to entertain and make money.
As were most foreign movies.
The difference is that *those* foreign movies seldom make it across the ocean or the border, which can give us an inflated idea of the overall foreign product. Personally I'd like to see another TCM channel devoted to foreign movies that don't make the existing TCM cut, but that's probably for another lifetime.
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I haven't seen the rest of TopBilled's list, but this one is but 1 of 21 different criteria for regarding a movie as a "classic". Beyond the example you give, I can think of plenty of B-movies (Torchy Blane; Boston ****; etc.) that are "classic" in one way or another without putting them into the highest "classic" echelon. IOW it's all relative.
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Does the film have a reason for existing?
That's a very high standard when you elaborate on it the way you have, and it's a good one to start off the discussion. I'm always interested to see how people apply it to particular movies.
My only initial comment would be that I find that that standard was met more consistently in the better foreign films of past decades* than it was in most Hollywood films. Though I would qualify that somewhat by acknowledging that by the time most foreign films make it over here, the worst ones have mostly been culled out, so in a way the comparison is a bit unfair.
*Most markedly in the Italian neo-realist films of the 40's and 50's, which IMO as a group were the finest movies ever made.
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*That's a good point, though I tend to notice it more in films from the 30's, which often featured some of my all-time favorite actors (Stanwyck, Davis, Cagney, Bogart, etc.)*
I was thinking more about people like Anthony Hopkins and Meryl Streep, who consistently turn in these stellar performances, occasionally in rather mundane, or mediocre vehicles with costars that cannot come close to matching their talents.
I see what you're saying, though the difference for me is that while I can enjoy a generic Bogey or Eddie G solely on the strength of their personalities, I can't even begin to do that for an otherwise blah movie with Hopkins or Streep. Overall, for every modern star who's an attraction in himself / herself, there are 10 stars from the studio era who bring about that reaction in me.
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When making my lists-- and this is something I often encountered when I reached the 19990s and 2000s-- is that sometimes there is a really great stand-out performance by an actor or actress, but the film itself is mediocre. So that has to be an honorable mention and cannot really make it into the top ten for that year, unless it was a weak year.
That's a good point, though I tend to notice it more in films from the 30's, which often featured some of my all-time favorite actors (Stanwyck, Davis, Cagney, Bogart, etc.) in some pretty generic fare. IMO movies back then were far more dependent on the screen personae of the stars (and of course the character actors) than they are in recent decades.* I can gladly sit through a potboiler like Bullets or Ballots, because the actors are so familiar it's like they're part of my family. But if a movie with such a thin plot were to appear today, with actors nowhere near as familiar, I doubt if it'd ever make it into my Netflix queue.
I haven't gotten around to making a list of my all-time top 50 or 100 (much too hard to do with too many great films to choose among), but if and when I do, I strongly suspect that relatively few American films prior to 1950 would make it near the top, unless they featured performances that were so compelling and universal (So Big; Stella Dallas), or featured a star whose unique talent has never been matched and probably never will (Jean Harlow). The irony is that while *as a group* I enjoy movies from the 20's through the 40's more than the ones that came later, my all-time favorites mostly come from the latter group. I hope that doesn't sound too stupid.
*I should add that since I never watch the superhero action or fantasy genres, or any movies whose selling point is the cinematography, I may be overgeneralizing here. I pretty much limit myself to dramas that at least have a fair amount of basis in reality.
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I know you like MY FAIR LADY a lot, but I consider Audrey very miscast in it. Though she tries admirably, I think she is in over her head and does much better in other cinematic fare.
TB, I married my wife in great part because she reminded me so much of Audrey Hepburn in more ways than I could even begin to enumerate. But since my wife was only 5 years old when that glorious film was released, I'm afraid that left only Audrey for the Eliza part. I hope you can understand this.
HIGH AND LOW was broadcast by TCM maybe three years ago as part of a month-long tribute featuring Kirosawa films. That was the first time I had seen it, and I loved it.
The only frustrating thing I've encountered in compiling these lists - - - and I'm sure you and others might feel the same way when you list your own choices - - - is that so many of the films I've cited are still largely unknown to casual movie buffs, and / or to those who purposely exclude all foreign or subtitled films from their schedules. That Kurosawa retrospective back in March of 2010, which coincided with Jean Harlow as SOTM, remains the highlight month of my TCM viewing experience. I'd seen High and Low and The Bad Sleep Well and (of course) The Seven Samurai in theaters before, but films like Red Beard, Stray Dog, Drunken Angel and a slew of others were personal "premieres" for me. It's hard for me even to imagine that someone could watch these movies and not be overwhelmed by the experience in the same way that they might be with Hollywood classics like On The Waterfront or It's a Wonderful Life or The Killers. Thank God that TCM understands this, and keeps *all* definitions of "classic" film open and on their table.
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*Top 12 for the 1960's as a whole.* If you concentrate on the best 40 or 50 films it was a hell of a decade:
1. *Kapo (1960)* - An extraordinary tale of a young woman who will do anything to survive in a concentration camp, with not a drop of sentimentality or impossibly happy endings. Susan Strasberg is almost forgotten today, but you'll never see a better performance in so intense a movie.
2. *The Bad Sleep Well (1960)* - The best movie about corporate corruption ever made, again with no phony happy ending. Another incredible performance by Toshiro Mifune.
3. *Red Beard (1965)* - Another Mifune tour de force, this time as an aging rural doctor who teaches life lessons to a young and arrogant intern.
4. *Mississippi Mermaid (1969)* - Nothing is ever what it seems in this film, and Catherine Deneuve can seem to be anything in this never lagging tale of deceit and passion.
5. *Elmer Gantry (1960)* - Easily the best Hollywood drama of the decade, with Burt Lancaster in the role of a charlatan circuit riding preacher that he said he was born to play.
6. *The Battle of Algiers (1966)* - Gillo Pontecorvo's neo-documentary that "contains not ONE FOOT of documentary film", is a re-creation of the crucial battle in the Algerian war of independence, a battle that the French won on paper but lost in the long run. With sterling performances by Jean Martin as Col. "Matthieu", Brahim Haggiag as Ali La Pointe, and Mohamed Ben Kassen as the little boy Omar.
7. *Bay of Angels (1964)* - One of Jeanne Moreau's most intense roles (and that's saying an armful), as a compulsive Riviera gambler who acquires a young groupie to accompany her in her whirlwind of exhilaration and despair.
8. *My Fair Lady (1964)* - Audrey Hepburn's greatest and most irresistible role, as the Cockney waif Eliza Doolittle to Rex Harrison's would-be Svengali, Professor Henry Higgins. Comes with the most memorable collection of songs of any film ever, saturated with either wit or romance or both.
9. *The Producers (1968)* - The great American comedy of the decade, with nothing else remotely close. With Zero Mostel as the most lovable con man in history and a plot that is nothing short of genius.
10. *High and Low (1963)* - The third Kurosawa / Mifune entry on this list, and barely below the others, it combines a moral dilemma with corporate intrigue and a riveting detective story.
11. *A Raisin in the Sun (1961)* - The first major studio production with an all-black cast and a wholly straight dramatic story. With an all-star cast featuring Sidney Poitier, Ruby Dee, Claudia McNeil and Diana Sands.
12. *Scream of Fear (1961)* - Another extraordinary performance by the vastly underrated Susan Strasberg as a wheelchair ridden woman whose father has mysteriously disappeared, in a movie that features one unforeseen plot twist after another, culminating in an unforgettable ending.
Best of the rest, in alphabetical order: Band of Outsiders; The Bride Wore Black; Darling; A Fever in the Blood; Hostile Witness; Murder, Inc.; Night of the Living Dead; Nothing But a Man; One Potato, Two Potato; Underworld, USA; Wait Until Dark
Best actor: Toshiro Mifune (The Bad Sleep Well; Red Beard); Burt Lancaster (Elmer Gantry)
Best actress: Susan Strasberg (Kapo); Catherine Deneuve (Mississippi Mermaid)
But in truth all of these films featured great acting performances.
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I recorded Arsene Lupin but have yet to watch it, and I never even heard of Councillor at Law until you mentioned it. I liked Svengali, though not as much as I thought I was going to, and I haven't seen The Mad Genius, although it sounds promising. I loved Grand Hotel but not too keen on 20th Century. I realize I'm in the minority on that one.
What I really should watch besides the ones you mentioned are Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Those are the 1922 and 1920 silent versions of the much repeated classics, and in the former film we also get to see a very early William Powell.
Too many movies, too few hours in the day.
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I imagine that a lot of people had the same reaction that you did to that poison gambit in The Mouthpiece, but as you say, it sure added to the drama!
I haven't seen enough of John Barrymore's non-sleazeball roles to form much of an overall impression of him, but I've yet to see any movie of his* that I'd prefer to any of a dozen of William's.
*Well, maybe Dinner at Eight, but that's much more for Harlow and Beery's matrimonial warfare than for JB's rather pedestrian performance.
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My interest in the Super Bowl varies according to my rooting interest in the outcome and in the quality of the teams. And since that first Giants-Patriots SB, it's been high. Last year the Ravens pulled off a great four game run, and this year we've got one of the top QB's of all time facing one of the NFL's greatest defenses in recent memory.
I wish the game began at 1:00 or 4:00 rather than at 6:30, but hey, this is what Moneyball (the real kind) is all about. At least the Super Bowl doesn't end after midnight the way so many World Series games do.
And I'll bet you one thing: A lot of those West Coast SB parties this year will be focused on the game, at least the ones up North.
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If Fidel Castro made the cut in his tryout for the New York Yankees, things in Cuba would have been different.
Since I agree with the thrust of your post, I hate to nitpick on this one little point, but in this case the urban legend has been that Castro failed in a tryout with the *Washington Senators,* who had a near monopoly in the Cuban ballplayer market back then. The Yankees never showed any interest in Cuban players until many decades later.
And even there, the key words are "urban legend", since Castro never attended any Major League tryout camp, nor was he ever scouted by any Major League team. That's been debunked almost as many times as the one about the woman with the beehive hairdo whose skull was fatally infested by maggots when she failed to wash her hair.
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What kind of film...
in General Discussions
Posted
1. What kind of film would Marilyn Monroe & Frank Sinatra have made? They almost appeared together in GUYS AND DOLLS.
I don't know what title I'd give such a movie, but you'd better believe I'd stage it in the White House bedroom.