JamesJazGuitar
-
Posts
35,217 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
52
Posts posted by JamesJazGuitar
-
-
To me Olivia was a more beautiful but only up until the mid-40s. Indeed Olivia didn't age as well as Joan. Joan was cute in her younger days but her persona wasn't as sexy as Olivia was in films like Capitan Blood or Robin Hood.
The two films you mention are good examples of this.
-
I'm a big Kate fan but I don't find this thread silly and most of the NON Kate fans have made their case based on how Kate acts in her movies and not her personal live.
What I do find interesting is that the industry rates Kate very, very high; one of the top 2 or 3 actresses of all time. But as we see here there are many classic movie fans that just don't see why since they view her persona as being too strong and thus mostly a one note pony in her movies. That are not trolls just because they have that opinion.
As for degrees of overstatement even as a Kate fan I cannot agree with this sentence: "Really, there is no 20th century actress with the breath of her performances".
I believe both Davis and Stanwyck showed more versatility in their performances. With no actress having more moving performances than Davis; e.g. Now Voyager, Dark Victory, etc. and Stanwyck being great in all genres, like Noir, Westerns, and Comedies more so than Kate or Bette.
-
Yes, Jean played a lot of strong women. Take The Devil and Miss Jones. Here she stands up for workers rights even if it means she could lose her own job.
Another example would be Olivia De Havilland. Even when she was mostly just a pretty face in some of her Flynn pictures, like Dodge City, she played an independent and strong women. While Melanie in GWTW is physically weak her spirit is strong.
Edited by: jamesjazzguitar on Dec 24, 2011 2:06 PM
-
Well the other poster was attempting to measure the amount of 'love' Henry Fonda got from audiences. The AFI does NOT reflect the views of the general viewing public.
For example, Olivia De Havilland is NOT listed as one of the top 25 actresses by the AFI, but my guess (but only a guess), is that she would be in the top 25 if there was a CFU poll of classic movie fans.
-
I found this part of your post very interesting: ",,who in a way use men to get ahead or as distractions or even free meals. These women are very independent."
So women that have to use men to get ahead and trade affection (I hope that is all Ginger traded), are examples of independent women. I don't view the world that way but I do find this take very interesting.
-
Savvy consumers do get what they paid for. You also appear to only see greed by those selling products instead of those either purchasing them (consumers) or making them (workers).
A consumer trying to get the best price or a worker the best wage are also forms of greed.
The economic model has remained fairly unchanged for hundreds of years.
-
Very well said with regards to Jane. Of course maybe decades from now Jane will be as well known as her father if not even more famous because of her personal life. As we have discussed before having a highly successful career doesn't necessarily ensure a legacy. Sometimes having skeletons in the closet helps.
-
Well we can agree to disagree. Rita wasn't a strong character in Cover Girl. She was going to marry a man she didn't love and gave up a man she did love because she was weak and immature. She doesn't get strong until the final seconds.
Yes, she was strong in the two movies you mention but clearly not in all of her roles.
-
I don't view the role Rita played in Gilda or The Lady From Shanghai were strong women. In both movies the women Rita played were trapped and controlled by mean, sadistic men. Yea, the Lady from Shanghai was capable of murder but murder is a sign of weakness not strength.
-
Its Love I'm After with Leslie Howard, Bette Davis and Olivia De Havilland is set on New Year Eve Day. This is a very funny comedy and well worth seeing.
-
How would you define Gilda?
-
Yea, I can see Van getting forgotten because he typically plays the everyday, low key guy. Your example of The Caine Munity is a good one to illustrate this. The other roles are more in your face and those type of roles often get more attention, but Van was indeed very good in Caine and a perfect fit for the role. Like I said I'm somewhat neutral with regards to Van but maybe even that POV isn't fair to him.
-
I feel there is a lot of truth in what Swithin is saying about Babs. Here is how I would back up that comment; First Babs was loved by her directors and was known as someone easy to direct. So in this way she could be pushed into a more versatile acting style by her director.
I also feel that Babs persona is less intense than that of Kate or Bette. As I said before Bette could also downplay her persona in roles like The Corn Is Green and All This and Heaven Too, but still in most of Bette's standout performances the Bette persona clearly is there to see. With Kate I believe this is even more so.
The above is one of the reasons I believe Babs is more universally loved by classic movie fans than say Kate or Bette. For some their persona is just too much for them to take. Me, I love them all.
-
What we have here might be a misunderstanding of how the term underrated is being used. As you noted to be underrated one has to be highly rated by some other group. In most cases this is based on the comments of critics and or the movie industry as measured by awards. Of course determining how someone is rated by critics industry is a crap shoot.
Now using the AFI top 25 actors, all three mentioned here (Jack, Van, Glen), are NOT listed there. So that helps make the case Jack was indeed underrated. As you know Van Johnson and Glen Ford were both big box office draws. Ford one #1 box office actor at least once. That is what the studio heads care about. Often a critic darling doesn't do well at the box office and therefore the lay movie fan might say that actor is overrated.
Note that I understand there are fans here that could care less what critics say, or what awards someone has won, or ranking like the AFI etc.... I get that. But then I don't see how they can claim someone they love is over or under rated. I alway ask them 'who is doing this rating' you disagree with so much. I seldom get any reply back.
-
I hope TCM continues to show Jane Fonda movies. I'm a fan of classic movies that can separate their politics from their enjoyment of movies and the actors and actresses that play in those movies.
I would say the same thing to someone that leans left that wouldn't watch, say, a John Wayne or Robert Taylor movie.
So TCM please continue to show the classic regardless of politics!
-
Not sure how you are measuring that 'Hollywood' didn't give Jack enough credit. He has won 2 oscars, as a best actor and supporting actor, as well as multiple other awards and won the AFI lifetime achievement award. I agree with your assessment of Jack's acting but don't feel he was underrated by Hollywood. He might be underrated by classic movie fans if they type cast him as a light comedian. But anyone that has seen Save The Tiger or Days of Wine and Roses knows differently.
As for Van; well I'm A-OK with him. I don't dislike him but I'm also not a big fan. I just think of him as another second tier type leading man. But I like Glenn Ford (someone often compared to Van which is why I mention him), more.
-
This is one of the few Monroe movies I enjoy. Different type of roles for both Widmark and Monroe and they do work very well together. But I also think Monroe does a good job in The Misfits. While to some degree she is still playing herself she doesn't overplay it in that movie. That type of low key Monroe I found interesting.
-
I assume they will not be showing movies with muslims in them. Or is that a different Loew's?
-
Is Jean Dixon I-Carly's mom?
-
Yea, Barbara did seam somewhat forced but I think it might of been with the lines she had to say and the type of character she was playing. Harvey wooden? No, that never happened in any film!
I agree about Capucine but I'll forgive young Jane for anything (and there is a lot to forgive her for.). She is just so sexy in those early years and based on what I saw of her on CNN this week still looking good.
-
Stanwyck's role in Walk On the Wild Side wasn't the lead female role; there were two other females that had bigger roles than her in that film. But yea, Babs was great in the film.
The roles Bette and Kate did later in their career where lead roles. I also think it is a very valid point to say Babs went to find what she considered better roles (work), in TV in her later years. Kate and Bette didn't to that to the same degree (Bette did some TV like her filling in for Raymond Burr when he was ill and couldn't do Perry Mason for a while).
-
I agree with you. I see little to no evidence that Jack Lemmon is underrated. I.e. He gets a lot of attention from classic movie fans (as far as I can see from this site), and from the critics and the industry. Most fans 'in the know' understand that Lemmon is much more than just a light comedy actor.
Van Johnson does fit the bill for underrated if one really believes he is one of the top actors of his generation (I don't think Johnson is and thus I would say he is 'rated' just about right).
-
Well I would say that at this time in Internet advertising history it is better than it ever was related to the history of other media (e.g. TV, Radio). With TV and Radio there was no option for the user to have any controls over the ads. With a lot of internet ads one can either block them or close them after only viewing a few seconds. One also has a lot more sources so they can avoid sites that don't give users many options.
Look at the fate of journalism; I can go to CNN or the L.A. Times sites and get free news. I can avoid the ads. What source of revenue is going to pay for journalist to write or investigate stories? Many news organizations are facing bankruptcy because they cannot come up with a revenue model. Google and Yahoo don't hire and pay journalist. But they do make it easier for users to view the work of journalist for free.
Take You-Tube; They exist mainly by showing material where the artist gets nothing. While this might be useful to new and emerging artists, established artists typically like to get paid.
Hey, I had the ads as much as the next guy (DUH), but in a capitalist society there has to be an established revenue stream. Otherwise we end up like China - they steal western media and artistic expression and this model will only lead to less media and art for users if there isn't a fair way to generate revenue for creators of said products.
-
You make a fairly sound case here but hey I'm a fan of Kate so I'm bias, but I think the Hepburn persona shines brighter in her movies than the Stanwyck or even the Davis one (well expect for Beyond The Forest and her 60s work), do in their movies. Take Davis and The Man Who Came To Dinner, which was on last night. Yes, in a few scenes we see the Davis persona of the early 40s (e.g. when she tells Whiteside he better not but in on her affairs), but Davis keeps her very strong persona in check. Other than in Holiday, I don't see Kate doing that much.
Her persona was perfect for Suddenly Last Summer (but agreed Liz stole the show from both Kate and Monty). The same persona worked well in Stage Door and The Philadelphia Story as well as Bringing Up Baby. Her persona is also on full display in most of the pictures she made with Tracy. But then I think she fit those roles well and thus I enjoy many of these pictures.
Of course maybe a very simple reason explains why so many men appear to dislike Kate's persona; It reminds them of their x-wife!
Help! Professor in need of film "hero" suggestions...
in General Discussions
Posted
Liberty Valance has been discussed a lot under the Western thread; I for one don't view the Wayne character as a hero. The killing of Valance wasn't done as an heroic act but instead to please a girl. In fact most of his actions were don't to either please this same girl OR because he lost the girl. His life after she chooses the Steward character was far from heroic. He was a bitter, loner and somewhat of a loser.
The Steward character isn't really a hero either but only takes credit for being one. But he is an upstanding person since he is willing to tell the truth about what really happened.
The movie is a great study about the concept of the fading of the western hero so it would be a very good film for people to see related to that concept even with the fact there is no clear cut hero to worship (versus say York).
I would recommend the western Westward the Women. Here Robert Taylor plays a complex hero type and many of the women are heros themselves.