[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

11 minutes ago, LuckyDan said:

The hat check girl is most likely a hat check girl.

Litvak's face was not well known to the public, no, but his name would have been recognized as Russian. And who was the most well-known Russian in 1940? Uh huh. 

Uncle Joe.

The artists very clevery drew Stalin's likeness as a stand in for the Russian lothario Litvak, then confirm our SUSPICION with Cary going on about THE AWFUL TRUTH landing on THE FRONT PAGE, all leading to the final frame and the line "I'm a bad boy."

Let's not be naive. I think what is going on is quite obvious.

 

 

LOL

But...but...Uncle Joe's flavor-saver/cookie-duster/woom-broom was WAY more bushy than ANY of those men you see in this cartoon, DUDE! Nope, they all had those little pencil thin numbers that were all the rage at the time, and like our man in question here does.

(...well, except as I recall for C. Aubrey Smith's, anyway)  

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

7 minutes ago, LuckyDan said:

For you Cugat die hards, I'm not sure if any of you have mentioned a good argument for his being the mystery diner. He was a caricaturist himself, so it's possible Avery's caricature artist included a drawing of him as a hat tip. 

Good point.

(...but it's still ol' tubby butt George Brent here, ya know) 

LOL

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

16 hours ago, LuckyDan said:

Multiple sources say 1940 was the year of the Ciro's incident, and no matter who or what the public was talking about then, Hollywood was talking about that, and Avery's team would have been aware of it. 

Hitchens' VF piece says "George was in Ciro's ..." (I remember being in restaurants at age 9.) If you looked up his birth year, you may have also noted his bio says he managed Ciro's at one time. And he doesn't say he saw it. He says "If you believe (those) who say they saw it ... " 

My objection to Brent is the same as the objections to Ameche. He doesn't have the nose. 

The character doesn't look exactly like any of the plausible candidates mentioned so far - and I don't consider the then-little-known Cugat plausible - so an inside joke is a real possibility.

If you were setting a cartoon at Ciro's, on the heels of this rumor, could you ignore it? 

Another couple of reasons I don't buy that it's Litvak here Dan is that first, I don't think it's ever been completely established that the hatcheck girl is actually supposed to have been drawn by the cartoonists to be Paulette Goddard. I think this right here is something that has been speciously ascribed to this cartoon character over the years. I believe the hatcheck girl's image and persona were really meant to represent any cute young working girl to be found in such a job at the time, and that her voice which mimics a strong Brooklyn accent and supplied by vocal artist Sara Berner was to make it seem exactly that. And not to mention the thought as to why the cartoonists would portray an establish star such as Goodard as a mere hatcheck girl in the first place.

Secondly, I also don't think the Termite Terrace boys would have purposedly had the gentleman in question here turn his head so the audience could see who he was supposed to be IF it were supposed to be Litvak, as Litvak's visage would have been completely unrecognizable to the public and as were almost all movie directors who worked behind the camera back then.

And I also don't believe the Termite Terrace boys would have added Litvak as any sort of "inside joke". Nope, I think their use of their W-B animation dept. bosses Binder's and Schlesinger's  visages were the only inside jokes they included in this short.

(...nope, I still think those boys were attempting to caricature one Mr. George Brent there)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

42 minutes ago, scsu1975 said:

I knew you wouldn't let me down here, Rich. Thanks!

(...and just wondered how you'd be able to fit your boy Tor in it, that's all) 

[Noir Alley]

35 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

I just looked up Los Tallos Amargos on the TCM schedule, and there's not a speck of information about it.  It says "No Information Available".  Sometimes it says that,  but then when you click on the film title,  the next page might have something about the film.

Nope.  Nada.  You click and go to the page that usually gives a few details,  and there's nothing.

I find this a little strange.  And it also got me to wondering,  who prepares the TCM schedule screens, and how do they provide the information about the movies scheduled?   Now we know, for instance,  that Eddie Muller knows something about Los Tallos Amargos,  but obviously it's not his job to work on the TCM schedule site, and it would be unfair to expect him to do so.

But there IS  a short article about the film on wiki, plus a few other sites about it.  Which brings me back to the question,  who exactly does the TCM schedule site,  who finds out the info about the movies, etc.,  and why is there absolutely nothing about Los Tallos Amargos,  even though there is information to be had about the film?   Is the schedule page done by a robot?

By the way,  I much much preferred the TCM schedule page before everything was changed on TCM,  I can't even remember when that happened now.  I mean the most recent change, of course there have been many over the years.  I wouldn't normally complain about that, since it was done at least a year ago,  maybe two years,  so what's the point of griping about it now?

It's just that every now and then, like today, trying to see what the schedule page said about this weekend's Noir Alley feature,  it struck me again how inadequate and unsatisfying the "new" (ish) ,  changed,  TCM schedule site is compared to how it used to be.

Good questions here, MissW.

Another rather strange thing I noticed after doing a web search myself just now on this film is that the IMDb website shows this 1956 released film as being from 2016.

(...I wonder what was up with that, also)

****edit to follow****

I'll bet it might be because this film was never released in the U.S. until 2016, though I still think it strange the IMDb website would date it thus and when its original date of release in Argentina was indeed 1956.

[That's a nice car!]

United States[edit]

 

BMW i8 production version exhibited at the 2014 New York International Auto Show.

Pricing for the BMW i8 destined for the U.S. market starts at US$135,925 including destination and handling fees and before any applicable government incentives.^[6] First deliveries to retail customers in the U.S. took place at the 2014 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance on 15 August.^[11] In order to commemorate the i8's American launch, a 2014 BMW i8 Concours d’Elegance Edition was auctioned during Gooding & Company’s annual Pebble Beach Auctions. This special edition car features BMW Individual Frozen Grey Metallic exterior paint, a Dalbergia Brown leather upholstery, trim accents in BMW i Blue, and other unique features. The car was sold for US$825,000 (€616,000 or GB£495,000) on 16 August 2014, six times the retail price of the i8. The proceedings go to the Pebble Beach Company Foundation.^[93]

Sales in 2015 reached 2,265 units, up 308.1% from 2014.^[94] A total of 6,776 units were sold through December 2019.^[95]

U.S. Sales figures[edit]

Year	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2014-2019 Total
Units	555[96]	2,265[96]	1,594[96]	488[97]	772[98]	1,102[99]	6,776

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

31 minutes ago, LuckyDan said:

There are many versions of the story. Some say only Anatole went under the table. Some say only Paulette. Some say both. George Schlatter told Christopher Hitchens that he was there. Hitch wrote in Vanity Fair:

". . . George was in Ciro’s on the night of the Paulette Goddard—Anatole Litvak scandale. 'If you believe the thousands of people who say they saw it, she sank beneath the table and he stayed upright and grinning.' "

With that in mind, watch the scene again. 

I think I've found our mystery diner. 

Sorry again here Dan, but no, I don't think you have, and for a number of reasons besides my earlier stated reservations about this.

I have a feeling that Litvak's scandalous incident involving Goddard happened years after 1941 and when this cartoon short was made. And I have this feeling because if you were talking about the George Schlatter of Laugh-In fame here, in 1941 Schlatter would have been all of 9 years old, and I can't image any 9 year old being admitted into Ciro's and let alone having any idea at that age of what would infer or imply oral sex.

Nope, and ALSO because during the time this cartoon short was made, Goddard and Charlie Chaplin's somewhat scandalous relationship were still the talk of Hollywood gossip, and thus once again leading me to think that this incident at Ciro's happened years later than 1941.

(...nope, once again I'm stickin' with my "Brent Theory" here)

 

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

1 minute ago, LuckyDan said:

For those who know the Paulette Goddard/Anatole Litvak under-the-table-at-Ciro's story, which I am guessing would have happened by the time the cartoon came out, I offer Litvak as a candidate. (If you don't know the story, many versions are available online.)

Putting Litvak at the table would be a deft way for Merrie Melodies to acknowledge the legend for those who can spot it.

And, Litvak has the (ahem) nose for it. 

 

 

 

Sorry to say I don't know this story, Dan. However, it sounds pretty juicy, and so I'll check it out on the net.

(...oh, and also sorry to say because the hair and the eyebrows especially don't look anything like our cartoon "mystery man" here, I have zero confidence in your guess here)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

Btw here, folks. Ya know what this thread needs now?

Yep! You guessed it! Well, if you've been around these here parts long enough to remember them, anyway.

Yep, one of Rich's (scsu1975) classic "Poll" posts! 

(...think I'll PM the guy right now and tell him his services are required here)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

3 hours ago, LuckyDan said:

Then another possibility is that it's an inside joke. The guy could be one of the animators. I saw somewhere that the Merrie Melodies big guys, Leon Schlesinger and somebody else, are depicted. 

I looked at a pic of Tex Avery. No match there. Jack Warner was bald. I don't know, but I am now leaning toward that theory.  An inside joke. 

 

Yep Dan, the guy sitting with Leon Schlesinger was indeed another Termite Terrace denizen. His name was Henry Binder. He was one of the producers at the W-B animation department. He too was used as an inside joke by the cartoonists of this short, and which wasn't the only time his staff of cartoonists would insert his caricature into one of their productions...

Henry Binder | Looney Tunes Wiki | Fandom

 

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

4 hours ago, LornaHansonForbes said:

JOAN CRAWFORD:

LOL

OR perhaps Ruby Keeler???

(...well, SHE danced just like that TOO, now didn't she?!!!)  

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

10 hours ago, LornaHansonForbes said:

their HENRY FONDA is terrible tho- they have to include an offscreen JANE DARWELL so that you recognize who it's supposed to be.

(and I almost wonder if they got JIMMY STEWART to do the JIMMY STEWART voice)

Actually Lorna, the Henry Fonda segment and where you hear the off-screen sound of a women's voice calling out his name, isn't a take on Jane Darwell playing his mother in The Grapes of Wrath, but instead was a spoof on a popular radio sitcom at the time titled "The Aldrich Family" and which in turn would prompt a series of B-movies being made of it from 1939-1944. Every radio episode and movie contained what would become a well known catchphrase of its time that entailed Mother Aldrich calling out, "Hen-REEEEEEE! Hen-ree Al-drich" and with her teenage son Henry then replying, "Coming, Mother!"

That's what that was all about.

(...and btw, I actually think Fonda's likeness in this is well done)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

27 minutes ago, Hibi said:

Hhhmmpphh! It's NOT me! No way did I have a schnozz like that!

Like I said earlier to Sans here Hibi, when caricaturists go about their art, they will always exaggerate certain aspects of their subject's appearance, and I think this what happened with this drawning of George Brent and his nose, as every other feature depicted of him here such as, and as Lorna mentioned the eyebrows, say George Brent.

(...yep, I'm holding fast to my "Brent Theory" here, folks)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

Re these added suggestions of it possibly being either Ronald Colman, Cesar Romero or Clark Gable.

All three of these actors are depicted in a separate scene in this short, and the manner in which they're all drawn is completely different than how is the subject of this question.

(...sorry, still say it's Brent here, folks)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

18 minutes ago, SansFin said:

I am reasonably certain that: TomJH is correct that it is: Xavier Cugat. The hump of the nose, the hairline and especially how the mustache and lips meet the nasolabial furrow. 

Sorry Sans, but I still see as many features of Brent's in that drawing as I do of Cugat's.

(...and now please excuse me as I scroll back up for a minute to get another viewing of that babe Abbe Lane...MAN, she was hot!!!)  

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

2 minutes ago, Allhallowsday said:

DON had a prominent nose. 

BUT, Ameche's nose did not have any "hook" to it and as does the gent in the cartoon. Notice how straight it flows down from his brow?

(..nope, I don't think the aforementioned "boys at Termite Terrace" wouldn't drawn him with that kind of nose, and especially in profile, IF it was supposed to be a caricature of Ameche)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

30 minutes ago, LuckyDan said:

If every source says it's supposed to be Ameche, it's most likely supposed to be Ameche. I know the internet is a great place to compound errors, but in this case, it makes more sense for it to be Ameche since he and Claudette had recently made a movie together. 

The drawing looks as much like Ameche as this looks like Garbo.  

Not getting the Cougat thing at all. What did he have to do with Claudette?  And wouldn't he be satirized for his accent or shown doing something musical? 

Yep, and yet another reason, and while I admit there IS a little resemblence between said caricature and Cugat, I also don't believe it's supposed to be him. You'd think if the boy's at Termite Terrace had been caricaturizing him, he would've been shown in some musical capacity within it.

And Dan, first, I think that caricature of Garbo while not being at all flattering, DOES look like, And secondly, sorry, but I also say that the people responsible within these sources for identifying this caricature as "Don Ameche" could be wrong, and regardless whatever "expertise" they might claim to have.

Too bad the aforementioned "boys at Termite Terrace" are all long gone now in order to get some sort of confirmation to this "most pressing matter" (LOL) as to who that was actually supposed to be.

(...still say it's supposed to be George Brent, though)

["EXCLUSIVE INSIGHTS FROM BEN MANKIEWICZ"]

3 hours ago, slaytonf said:

Just think of him as making dad jokes, only for movies.

Aaah! And so THIS is the reason the last time Ben did an intro for that Victor Mature flick, One Million B.C., he couldn't resist telling that old one about what they call a caveman's f@rt, eh?!

Don't know that one or don't remember Ben tellin' that one, ya say?

Why, they call it...wait for it..."A blast from the past"!

(...naaah, he really didn't tell that one...I just like this old "dad joke" and wanted to tell it here myself, THAT'S all) 

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

1 minute ago, slaytonf said:

Mr. Brent's hair--(I cant' believe I'm participating in this conversation)--on the side of his head

Oh, this is just too ridiculous.

Could be WORSE ya know, slayton ol' boy.

(...yep, I could've started a thread about "motorcycles in movies" instead, and I know you would have probably found THAT even MORE ridiculous, huh?!)

LOL

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

9 minutes ago, slaytonf said:

It's not the nose, but the hair that clinches it.  Definitely Mr. Cugat.

WAIT now slayton!

What big difference do you see between Cugat's hairline, color and style and with that of Brent's here?

I see little if any difference here, anyway. And besides, that pic of Brent that Sans posted was definitely taken when he was a mite older and his temples began to grey.

(...but HEY, at least we've apparently established that that WASN'T Don Ameche now, RIGHT?!)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

46 minutes ago, SansFin said:

Could it not be both? Did you ever see them in a room together?

 

Ameche, Sample, Brent

I would say that it is much closer to Brent but the shape of the nose forces me to wonder if it might not be some other person.

 

Excellent work here, Sans! Nicely done.

And, because you have to remember here that caricaturists will always exaggerate one's features when they go about their business, the idea that Brent's actual nose and the one in the cartoon aren't EXACTLY alike should not negate my claim, nor suggest it being another actor entirely.

(...right?!)

 

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

2 minutes ago, speedracer5 said:

I also had that thought about the cartoon Ameche's (allegedly, anyway) nose, it seemed too prominent.  I also had the thought that this caricature reminded me of Robert Taylor. 

Yes, the caricature's nose is quite a bit different than Taylor's here, speedy.

(...Taylor's is definitely straighter)

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

21 minutes ago, TomJH said:

Another possibility: Xavier Cugat

YES! Now THIS I could possibly buy into. And, is something I also thought of earlier, in fact. Still say though it's more likely George Brent than Cugat here.

(...OH btw...thanks SO much for including in this pic of him a shot of one of his band's singers and ex-wives, the GORGEOUS  Miss Abbe Lane here...have had a crush on her since I was a kid...BOY she was hot and what a look she had...OH baby!!!)

 

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

10 minutes ago, TomJH said:

Actually, Dargo, to me that guy doesn't look like either Brent or Ameche but, instead Mike Romanoff, a Hollywood restaunteur and a well known character in those days who tried to pass himself off as a Russian aristocrat. I found a photo of Romanoff in profile.

http://cruiselinehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Screen-shot-2011-10-24-at-5.26.54-PM.png

He's second from the left on that link.

Of note, Romanoff was an outrageous tall tale teller, and would be a friend, unsurprisingly, of Errol Flynn. In fact he would be one of Flynn's pallbearers.

Well Tom, I suppose there might be SLIGHT resemblance between Mr. Romanoff up there and the caricature of GEORGE BRENT in that cartoon, but I actually think because you started a thread about Errol Flynn today and thus had his old buddy on your mind already, THIS played a major a role in why you've suggested this. 

(...or in other words, nope, sorry, I'm not buying into this little theory of yours at all) 

[Every source I've found says this caricature (the gent in profile you see sitting at the table) is of Don Ameche, but I say it's supposed to be George Brent. What say you?]

2 minutes ago, SansFin said:

Could it not be both? Did you ever see them in a room together?

 

LOL

No, no I haven't. And in fact, I don't think I've ever seen 'em in a movie together either. 

But then as I recall, Ameche was under contract at 20th Century Fox and Brent at Warner Bros, and so that could explain that.

(...and which now might beg the question: With this short being produced by W-B, I wonder if they had to get permission and/or pay some kind of fee to use the likenesses of the stars who were under contract at all the other studios?)