laffite

*Now if you could just teach me how to create that Mary Astor emoticonmy posting life will be complete.* You mean my I love you Edith Cortright emoticon. Sorry, that's private. Determining the how of any emoticon you see can be done this way: 1) copy the emoticon to a Word document 2) click on Edit 3) click on Edit Special 4) click Unformatted Text 5) click OK Voila! *?And as hard as the ending was for her, it did put her in the correct position...she could now be a rich divorcee living on the continent, alone, yes, but not for long, i'm sure.? - marcco44.* *And I have a feeling that our provincial little Fran will be taken by dashingly handsome European gigolos for everything Sam was worth.* I had the feeling she had some money of her own. When she rents the villa she says something to that effect. And doesn't Sam say something about Fran being the daughter of a...tycoon, or something. Minor point, just a memory tug. *We can?t fight time and that will be a losing battle for Fran. Saaaay, what did Dr. Omar say in ?The Shanghai Gesture?: "The moving finger writes; and, having writ, moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel half a line, nor all thy tears wash out a word of it," quoting Omar Khayyam.* Lovely quote, Mave. You know how to pick'em out of the at just the right time. You a master of the A Propos. I didn't know that was from Khayyam. Omar quoting Omar. *Though that discussion (( In a Lonely Place )) was as long as The Odyssey and The Illiad combined...ours was much more interesting, n'est-ce pas)? Homer who!* Bien sur! Do you think our, uh, discussion should be taught in college? Homer, let's see...isn't that what they call it when you hit it over the fence... *Ha! I think of Judy Collins? song:* I like how you relate things to everything far and wide...tres bien! *Is it a possibility Lafitte that for the time...that was the natural progression of womanhood, or the state or status of being a Woman: first the ?tease?; then the ?going all the way?; then Marriage??* Shows you how much I know about love, marriage, and women. I had thought back then it was "tease" then "marriage" then "going all the way," or at least that they were trying to tell us. Sort of like the Victorian age. It was the Victorian age okay but that doesn't they were really, un, Victorian. *I am going to try and watch this tonight so I can get a fresh perspective. I'll be back later with more comments." - Molo.* *I'll hold you to that man. You know you're a Molo after my own heart. I'm going to check later.* Me too. ..

Hi Jackie, thank you! >I especially liked the way you started out talking about Fran I think what happened here is that I felt more intrigued with her at the beginning. Of the two she was the one drifting and it seemed to be her story more than Sam's. Sam is stable and apparently the same as always while Fran is the one actually driving the story with her provocative social behaviours etc. I'm interested in Sam's reaction to this but she's the one I'm watching and wondering about. At least at the beginning. >I think that they have lived all those years together and actually don't know one another. Sam has been in business, I picture him coming home for dinner and reading his paper. His life is very independent from Fran's. He doesn't have much of a clue about Fran. His real life is at the office, and her real life is at home alone or with other people. When he does come home, now that the kids are raised, she has started having parties to give her a sense of herself, and he is just another guest. Her life grew without him, just as his life grew without her for all those years. That's interesting, but how come he loves her so much. Remember what he said to her at the train station. That wasn't a garden-variety I love you. Sam seems to know himself and comes across to me as someone who has it together. Is that what others think...or no? Maybe I have him wrong. I don't see him as foolish or not knowing what he wants. I don't see him as someone who doesn't "have a clue" about Fran and yet still feel he loves her that much. He doesn't come across as naive when Fran starts these little dalliances, he seems to understand what 's happening and even a little above it all and in control, he chides her and gives her a little room almost as if he knows she's going to come out of it. And after the Lockert incident she has this scene where she does seem to come out of it and tells him to watch her if she forgets where she came from. Is it possible that they were actually very happy together and that Fran was never really confronted with fear of growing old business during her busy life raising the child and being a faithful wife and helping and loving her husband. For one thing she was not old for most of the time, growing older only happens gradually, and if the thought should ever creep to consciousness she was busy enough not to allow it to get her attention and that it was only after having this long future of retirement in front of her that she realizes that she is still young looking and therefore falls prey to this fear of losing her looks and begins to act in a way that she never has before. As you say, though, maybe they were on automatic pilot during their marriage and then had to actually do the flying when retirement came. In any case, my feeling is that he has always loved her but I am unclear whether the opposite is true. >Chatterton's performance just blows me away every time I see it.. I understand I've never seen anything quite like it. Watch her during the argument when Sam goes to answer the phone that turns out to be a complaint. The camera follows him and but watch the little business she does as the camera leaves her. She is so damn real. >Can you imagine Fran actually married to Kurt? What a hell that would be in reality, for both of them. No, I can't...and I'm surprised the story even went that far. It seemed out of sync with what preceded it. I could see Fran wanting the attention but holding back like she did with Lockert, or even going all the way with Iselin with the situation sort of getting out of hand, but actually getting married to someone else seemed a step out of character and almost contrary to the whole story. Unless we are supposed to believe that Fran wanted to marry for the satisfaction of knowing that he was younger than she and thereby she could see herself as not so old. If so, then Fran comes across almost a pathetic woman and I am disappointed in that because I think that despite her obsessions and fears she would be smarter and more self aware than that. I see the necessity, plot-wise, that she would be made to want to marry him, but realistically it seems a sort of false note to the story. Thanks, J

BIG CITY BLUES ...being unhappy with men as usual. They were okay with the orange part but the stuff part was taken exception to in that the term stuff was a little too vague for the female temperament and of course not trusting the male gender in just about everything else as well, the battle of the sexes was once again in full swing and to make a long story short the women wanted to know exactly what these men meant by stuff by golly. To which the men snickered and said wouldn't you like to know and guffawed like the brutes that they are and so the women who history have shown us to be more that able in these battles promptly exerted their extraordinary power and proceeded to...

*Does the fact that you loved this movie mean the end of the thread?* Calm, calm, no offense intended.

*Too late! heehee! well now youre never gonna get your rum, b/c sappy pirates dont drink that stuff. * Well, I guess I'll have to quit then...being sappy, that is. *...she (( Fran )) was very selfish in her ways.* Very much so. *I loved how Astor's character was so much of the opposite and loved every bit of her life and wanted to enjoy evertything around her.* :x :x :x Oops, there I go again being sappy. I have to watch that. I have this new plunder-wrought Jamaican rum and I can't let it go to waste. *....and i think Chatterton got what she deserved in the end...okay i feel better now. heehee!* Can't argue with you there. Despite pockets of sympathy she might draw here and there, in the end we do reap what we sow. *i really loved your SAPPY post mon swasheroo! you can never hide the softiness from me!* Thank you, Greer, but I can tell you it's all in act. If I came off a little sappy there, it was temporary insanity. Yes, temporary insanity, that's what it was! And besides you'd better not tell any of my men aboard ship, they might recall me and then I wouldn't be Captain anymore and ole laffite would be relegated below decks where i would sit around and read dime romantic novels and what kind of life is that for renown and fearsome blackguard such as myself, sheesh!

*Your ramble really made me feel as though I were sitting there next to you watching it.* Ha, I must have got that from you, that's what you're so good at. You may be a bit too lavish in those plaudits though...Thank you for all the nice and supportive comments. *Your writing about this film, reveals not just spoilers about the movie (which we?re amply warned about) but HOW YOU FEEL about the movie; HOW YOU FEEL about movies.* And that's the key, I think. I could never write a sober review. That's as purely intellectual exercise and I'm a little short in that department. It's the feeling part that make the thoughts just come. I think that ramble might have been a bit overlong but I am taken by how great this movie is and, yes, I may have wallowed a bit too much in all its wonderful details. There are so many really great moments there. *You?ve also offered up Fran?s character in a way that I can feel sorry for her.* I must have a "bleeding heart." I tend to give a break to people who behave badly due to compulsions and fears (think: Laural Grey) . What else can they do? Fran Dodsworth created her own demise so I don't feel sorry for her in that respect but her obsession and fear about growing old, though self-centered, was very real to her and driving her behavior and I can have a certain sympathy with the helplessness that comes with trying to deal with that. It's easier too to feel sorry for her in that she hurt mainly just herself. Sure she hurt Sam but he is amply recompensed in the person of :x :x :x (lucky guy ) Ultimately though, and in the main, she is not sympathetic at all in the way she comes across final scene with Sam on the ocean liner. But they wrote her a bad scene so Sam could walk away without a qualm. Thanks, Maven //

A SUCCESSFUL CALAMITY ...could be successfully avoided if everybody stopped drinking coffee altogether and instead drank orange juice because Irma had a couple of friends who had an orange juice stand for awhile anyway. Irma tried to think of a replacement for Starbucks but could not do so being the type of blonde she was, meaning that she would not be accepted to take part in a think tank on account of certain liabilities in cerebral cortex. But she made up for all that because she had an idea that would make Einstein blush, and so with great flourish she gathered everyone round and said...

*DODSWORTH* Alec Baldwin (guest programmer) in the intro remarked that Walter Huston came across so modern and un-stodgy and that Ruth Chatterton was the opposite, comparing her to Mary Pickford and the way that she came across as if in a more dated way. I didn?t quite see it that way, I thought she was quite realistic, even naturalistic, in the way she portrayed Fran Dodsworth. I won?t call it her movie but on this first viewing I was more impressed upon by her than any other which is saying something considering she is playing opposite Walter Huston. Walter Huston is phenomenal but it was Ruth who really got to me here. Her character has a little more to do and a little more business because of her little obsessions and struggles. Sam is more stable. To fully appreciate Walter is a more cultivated taste for me and will impress more upon me later, to be sure. Ruth Chatterton knocked my socks off immediately. She is so good at playing strong women, most notably, in Female (1933) and she is a strong woman here though she certainly makes choices in this story where she meets her match and more than once too. I watched this movie for the first time a couple of nights ago and had no idea what is about. I?m not real good at discussing or posting at length unless I?ve seen the movie a few times, but here, the general lines are pretty clear cut though there may be tell-tale signs here and there that I?m missing something, so be it, that would be par for the course for me. What I?m saying here is more about my love and enthusiasm for the film than any sort of in-depth treatment of meaning and theme. *CAUTION: If you haven?t seen Dodsworth and you like classic movies, please do yourself and favor and skip this. I give away the whole story. Don?t ruin this fine movie forever. Instead, get a hold of it and watch it. The less you know about it the better it will be.* I learn early what?s going on with Fran but still, things are just beginning and the usual red flags signaling vanity and the concern with looks and not growing old don?t take immediate effect with me and she sustains a likability at the outset though I am quickly surprised (and perhaps meant to be) with the flirtations on the ship bound for Europe. But I keep an even keel because Sam, after all, seems to have a good-natured tolerance for it and he knows who she is and if it?s okay with him then it?s okay with me, after all, they?ve been married for 20 years and this is probably some, if not normal, at least transient, innocuous little thing, especially now that they are both free and, well, feeling free. And besides he?s doing a little flirting of his own?with :x :x :x (why the loveys? Indulge me .) The sequence with Captain Clyde Lockhart (David Niven) was nothing less than splendid! She is carrying on getting the attention she wants but when she doesn?t ?go all the way? with him she gets a comeuppance. Lockert?s little speech to her is direct and rather devastating. It?s no mere shot across the bow. Captain Lockert has sharp words and he is so classy about it (David Niven is great). He cuts her down a few notches by saying, among other things, ?You think you?re a woman of the world, but you?re not.? He is brutally honest with her and he made me feel a bit sorry for her. She has this betrayed look on her face and I?m getting to know her better. I?m thinking she just likes to play games in getting the attention and compliments but would not go so far as to jeopardize her marriage which might explain Sam?s tolerance but I also learn that she might be a bit of a phony, covering up her roots instead of realizing who she really is or where she comes from. This won?t be the first time she forgets where she comes from and where she is?no fear?but the Baroness comes later. I?m feeling sorry for her now and liking her more as I see her cave and sink into the arms of Sam. She wants to be delivered from folly of these little obsessions and be a good wife and seems to realize who she really is again. She says, ?Oh Sam, I?m just a wooly American just like you are and if you ever catch me being anything else, will you beat me.? Chatterton is so good at showing feminine strength that I thought she was a little out of her element when she was sitting on the bed recovering from her Lockart experience and lamenting to Sam. She?s sitting there tearful and trying to screw up her face with hurt and remorse and I thought she was unconvincing doing that. Is Chatterton restricted in range to play the weak and remorseful? Anyway, she likeable again. She?s on the right track. She?s learned her lesson and and the story will probably take a new turn... But no? Arnold Iselin. In a wonderful moment in the film, a moment that will probably be appreciated more by a woman than a man. :x :x :x sees Fran flirting with Iselin and walks up to Fran and delivers the most terse piece of advice in the history of movies??Don?t.? I loved that. ?What?? says Fran as if she doesn?t know. Next, a splendid scene where Sam and Fran argue. She?s got all that goop on her face. Laffite sitting in the chair guffawing. Chatterton is superb, eyes flashing, looking faintly ridiculous all white-faced with finely-applied cream and fancying herself ?accepted? in Parisian society. Sam is pacing the room, waving his arms, an ?ordinary American businessman? and who may not be the fancy-shmancy type but knows a lot more than all these high-born monsieurs she is enamored with. She thinks they should have a time away from each other, not so serious as an actual separation, of course, but just a sort of ?vacation from each other.? Then she lays one on Sam that startles me. It?s a good scene because she?s at her bureau and he is in the other room. She says, oh, by the way, Sam, I?ve rented a villa in Italy for the summer and?the scene is set up well because we can already anticipate him emerging from the room with a look of befuddlement. He does that and having already assented to returning to America without her, he says, ?You might have told me.? No kidding. I am amazed that Fran would go this far. I?m beginning to wonder about Fran now?and so is Sam. He approaches her and says, ?You?re not drifting away from me, are you?,? not all grave with heavy drama but in an almost mockingly affectionate way and so like him too, to be that way? and I loved the way she sort of looks up and out the corner of her eye in a sort of wonderment says, ?I hope not,? as if she is truly wondering if that could really be true. One thing about Fran and the marvelous way that Chatterton plays her is that she is really up front with what is on her mind. She is totally honest and acquits herself well even when confronted with the most difficult admissions. The way she says, ?I hope not,? is one of those moments. She?s not all that likeable right now but I have an admiration for her honesty and her apparent realization that she is playing a dangerous game with her marriage. Sam does go back to America and Fran goes too far with Iselin. It?s a full-blown affair this time and it?s becoming clear that Fran no longer loves Sam. It?s more now than flirtatious games to fan her vanity, the feeling now is that she could live quite well without Sam though she doesn?t quite have the details on how that might happen, that is, until she meets? The Baron Kurt Von Obersdorf. She seems genuinely surprised that he wants to marry her. When she agrees I?m sure now that she no longer loves Sam or she can?t stand the idea of going back to that ?hick? town, not to mention being a grandmother, and not get what she calls ?civilization? the niceties and the attentions of French society. Fran is not likeable here but I?m feeling for her a little bit because I can sense that she is making a big mistake. I could understand her with the flirtations etc but I thought she was tied to Sam and that there were limits. Like she said to Iselin when the latter tried to make her forget Sam as being in the past, ??but he?s the future too,? she says. She realized that then but has forgotten that now. She trades in Sam for Kurt and it was the mistake of her life. I found this out when she butted heads with? The Baroness Von Ubersdorf ?from whom she suffers a defeat of considerable magnitude that makes the comeuppance from Captain Lockhart (Niven) seem like a slap on the cheek. The Baroness won?t allow the marriage to her son. Captain Lockhart is right, Fran is not a woman of the world and she doesn?t quite really know where she is but only where she is not. She is not back in America where you are free and anything goes but she is in Europe where there are steadfast traditions and values that go back centuries and Fran is about to learn them?the hard way. You must get the mother?s permission to marry, there are religious considerations, and in the most searing cut of all there are progeny to consider and Fran is an ?older woman? and this is the biggest cut of all because this is at the root of all Fran?s fears, growing old. I appreciated how Fran (Chatterton is great here) fights doggedly for what she wants. She stands up to the Baroness under great stress. She is devastated but she is articulate and even threatens to marry Kurt anyway all the while appalled that Kurt is standing there like a butler, a clear sign to Fran just who in fact is the woman of his life?and it isn?t her. But another reason she loses out is in the form of Maria Ouspenskaya. Nobody wins out against her. It doesn?t matter what movie she?s in, she is a forbidding presence and not to be denied. The indomitable Maria wins again. In the final scene Fran is not likeable and necessarily so because we are ready for her final act. She is made to look really bad. She is not grateful that Sam is helping her. She casually presumes that he has come back to her as though nothing has happened at all, she is contemptuously dismissive of everything around her, and just plain cross as all get out. But even here she is aware of what is happening and can comment on it. ?I see I can?t seem to find the right note of congeniality.? I wonder if the original play tones her down at all in this last scene. Would it be more interesting if Fran were penitent and maybe a little hurt and wounded, more sympathetic perhaps, making Sam?s decision difficult and creating suspense for the audience? Whatever the case, I?m sure Hollywood wanted it just as they played it with Sam seeing who Fran really is allowing him to return to :x :x :x with a clear conscience, something he needs because he is built that way. At this, her worst moment, I find myself, paradoxically, not feeling all that sorry for her. She is resilient. She?ll fix her hair and choose the right clothes and make sure the door is closed so she won?t catch cold and she?ll find the next Iselin, or Kurt, or?whoever. She is too strong to capitulate and let?s remember, she has her own money. She?ll be all right. *CONTINUING SPOILERS* My initial impression of Sam Dodsworth (Walter Huston) was immediate and it didn?t really change from beginning to end. I liked him. And if you?re a woman you probably loved him. Sam Dodsworth retires from being ?an ordinary American businessman? and actually does (gasp!) what retirees are supposed to do but sometimes have a hard time actually doing---retire. Huston imbues him with an irrepressible boyish enthusiasm and charm and he is off to all the sights of Paris but there is only one thing wrong. Fran doesn?t want to go with him. And we are beginning to know at this juncture that Fran is anything but a tourist. She is more interested in ?civilization? and being admired for what she?s afraid she?ll soon lose. These two are so different. Can you see Fran visiting Napoleon's tomb? How is it these two lived so long and so happily together? And how did he come to love her so much? But love her he does. He adores her. It?s almost sweet the way he is after her to accompany him on his sightseeing trips, as if they haven?t been married for 20 years. It seems more rather as if they have just met and he is wooing her. He has a total regard for her. He is indulgent with her flirtatious games. He is not na?ve about the Lockert dalliance and aftermath but he seems to think he knows Fran and doesn?t suspect her of any misdeed. He is quite even-handed with her in just about everything. He acquiesces (though not entirely gracefully, he?s not a pushover) when she suggests he return to America without her and I guess he feels she is going to remain faithful to him when she rents the villa. When he finally has to take some action and arranges the three-way meeting he is more than fair with the both of them and forgives Fran completely. Can you ask for more? And what he said at the train station. I?m trying to think how to say this because I am not the sappy type. Fran is leaving and she looks up at him and says, ?Try not to be too terribly lonely, will you, Sam,? to which he replies as the train pulls out of the station---ready for this---?Have I mentioned to you today how much I adore you.? She said something to him that might have been hurtful though she didn?t mean it that way but he responded with something stronger, not to out do her or to have a come back, but with simple honesty. It?s a beautiful line, much better than the standard ?I love you, Fran? that we usually get here. What a thing to say to the woman who is leaving you! I was jolted a little by it (and yes, moved, almost tearfully) and it justifies that almost stricken look on Fran?s face as the train pulls away and they?re looking at each other. Did it occur to her at that moment that she had made a mistake? Just as I had reservations about Ruth Chatterton playing the sad and whiny type, I wasn?t totally convinced watching Walter Huston play the depressive type. He may have been a little out of his element there as well?but on the other hand maybe that?s what a normally ebullient man looks like when he is depressed. He is alone and hitting every museum in Italy. Though not abjectly sorrowful he is nonetheless quite deflated. He is saved by the re-acquaintance of one of the most appealing women I have ever seen depicted on screen or stage and perhaps even in real life, the exquisite? :x :x :x aka Mrs. Edith Cortright (Mary Astor) She comes across as worldly but uncomplicated, Intelligent but not smug, as a delicately level-headed woman with a pleasant serenity about her and who projects a sense of quiet and gentle companionship. I love her. I love the way she looks, the way she talks, her every manner of being. Oh Fran, what a rival you have in Mrs Edith Cortright! :x :x :x (If there is a heaven, one part of it might be living at that villa by that lake with that lady and spending at least a part of eternity with her?even if we just sit around and read books. ) Sam and Edith gives me as understated love scene as I will ever see. They are having a simple conversation and they almost by accident discover that they love each other. They were so happy just being themselves and being in each others company and a conversation takes a certain turn when Sam absently, but honestly, includes her in a venture and Edith is shocked and then next thing we know she is saying, ?I think I must love you, Sam.? There is something extraordinary about how that occurred and it made me believe that this is the way the love thing is supposed to happen. A wonderful scene. Later, Edith fights for what she fears losing when the call from Vienna comes. The gentleness gives way here but even her anger has a sort of admirable restraint. But angry she is and we see what a gentle woman looks like when she feels something she has always wanted begin to slip away. It has been obvious from the outset that she is a lonely woman and despite her calm exterior perhaps desperately so. I believed her when she said earlier that she had been waiting for something to happen for a long, long time. Well, Edith, it finally happened. Mary Astor is perfection. She gives Edith Cortright the joy she deserves as she looks out on the lake to see the boat bringing the man she loves home to her. I mean, what a movie, yes? PS Don?t tell *Butterscotchgreer* that I?m being so sappy. I tease her about that very thing and she shouldn?t ever think that laffite could ever be like that. I mean, everybody knows that pirates aren?t like that. //

>"Love That Bob" ran from 1954 to 1959... Wasn't his show originally The Bob Cummings Show and then renamed Love That Bob! later when it went into syndication? I thought the show hilarious. He was very funny. He had some mannerisms that he used in his comedy that i don't believe he had an opportunity to use when he was in the movies and playing serious roles, certain little tics, double takes, hesitations, stuff like that. And remember when his uncle, or was it his father, played by himself made to look older. I thought he did some fine comedy. Are those shows considered sexist in our current age? I wish they would come back, I used to laugh watching those.

Days of Wine and Roses palladium

Close Encounters of a Third Kind rue

Really? I love that movie.

Il Postino = lovelorn metaphor lover Allonsanfan

CRY TERROR ...because they were getting low and petrol and the burro was making a stink that made everyone feel that they should just parachute below and see what was going on with the war since they weren't getting any updates from CNN. Everybody jumped from the plane and were relieved to find that it was only a radio show and much ado about nothing and so everyone met at Starbucks for caramel machiattos and low carb vanilla wafers and talked about latest bowling news. Suddenly it got dark outside real fast and they thought, oh, an eclipse, but no, it was...

*I am firmly in the a) camp. Dix left Laurel, but they both know it's over. It almost doesn't matter anymore who left whom.* Hi Jackie, I know we're analyzing this thing to death but let me ask this question (and to all) : Dix left Laural because: a) he felt betrayed by her and he no longer loved her. He left on his own terms. he left because he felt that she had had enough and though he still loves her he realizes he's blown it and leaves heartbroken and disappointed. I'm almost ready say that I've had enough of IALP for awhile. It's a stalemate but I don't think it's been a question of one side trying to persuade the other. That almost never happens although we can be made to realize something new and change on our own. That can be a sort of persuasion, I guess. But the interesting question is to see why there is a disagreement. This movie can be enjoyed again and again. I'll have another look in a few months, or maybe sooner, and see where I am.

THE CANTERVILLE GHOST ...impinged upon our story with echo-emanating lamentations coming from that castle in which he had been imprisoned for these long centuries to be released upon the heroic deed still in the waiting and the hearing of these lamentations informed our company that this was indeed the stolen life and a relief was felt by all most egregiously by the burro who did exactly that which cause such a stink that Lucy who was normally of good cheer said "I've had it," and yelled, "Rickeeeee" who was at the club seeing bob-ah-looooooo but the I Love Lucy episode just then ended and the next program came on which was a story about...

*Jackie wrote: I think I was wrong about his controlling, but he does want to possess her, and that is not a comfortable situation for a girl who thinks he might have killed someone. Do you think it's possible for Laurel to waffle back and forth, after a certain point, thinking Dix did kill Mildred, and then the next minute thinking he didn't? I think she goes back and forth, I don't think she is ever convinced, one way or another, until the very end, when her fear just takes over.* In other words, she?s conflicted and doesn?t know, I agree and therefore to Frank?s query: *A) Laurel believed Dix didn't kill Mildred, from start to finish.* * Laurel believed Dix killed Mildred, from start to finish.* *The changes:* *A) Laurel initially believed Dix killed Mildred but then she believed he was innocent.* * Laurel initially believed Dix didn't kill Mildred but then she believed he was guilty.* *Of those four possibilities, which do you (and everyone else) believe is Laurel?* None of the above. Laural initially believed Dix didn?t kill Mildred but then wasn?t sure. She was conflicted. If she were certain either way, her course would be clear. If she believed Dix killed Mildred she would have left him. If She believed that Dix did not kill Mildred she wouldn?t have had to visit Sylvia at all and who knows, they might be living happily ever after right now and we wouldn?t be hear talking about all this. _Frank said to Miss Goddess_: *Without the words of others, I don't believe she would be as affected by Dix's beating of "Joe College* I think it?s the opposite. Without the JoeC I don?t she would have been affected by the words of others. It?s where you want to put the emphasis. I think Joec takes precedence because she saw that with her own eyes and it is a part of her experience. That is bound to have more of an effect on her than mere hearsay. The Lochner and Martha information came first and she handled it pretty well. Those incidences did not shake her conficence in Dix. We have the beach scene she is happy with him there, there is no evidence that she is not afraid here. It?s the JoeC incident that scared her that is more important than hearsay and therefore? _Miss Goddess said to Frank_: *All Dix's actions now take on a sinister aspect because of the accusation ((by Lochner))* ?it's the opposite, it?s the accusations that take a sinister aspect because of the JoeC bashing. _Frank said to Miss Goddess:_ *Lochner isn't doing anything to them. Laurel is allowing Lochner to do it.* Laural can?t ignore that an investigation is going on. And it?s affecting her, especially given that she is in conflict. _Jackie said_: *However, I do think that Dix has made his judgment of her already at this early point. He does think it's bad. I think Laurel sees it as good. The implication in his line is that she is selfish. Do you think it is possible that Dix's "bad" view of her as a quitter or a runner or selfish (rather than a sensible girl who gets out when there is no future) creates a self-fulfilling prophecy? That he actually helps to destroy their relationship by characterizing her in such a way? He can't help it. He has characterized her at this early point as someone who is out for herself. That does not sound to me like a "good guy" or different. Which way does he see her? As a good guy, or as a quitter?* Jackie, good point. The fact that Dix sees her as ?quitter? so early on without even knowing her tells more about Dix than it does about Laural. Maybe this attitude was lurking in Dix the whole duration in story. At the end he says something like, ?You?ll leave me just like to did Baker.? If you?re right about the self-fullfilling phrophecy idea, this tells us that this lurking suspicion in Dix might have really prevented him from ever trusting Laural completely. That seems to favor the pro-Laural stance but I want to be careful how much importance to attach to it, it?s worthy of consideration though. _Frank said to Jackie_: *I think Dix's calling Laurel a "quitter" is his quick, gut instinct with her. All he knows is that she left Baker. That's it.* Gut instinct can get Dix in trouble. _Frank said to Jackie_: *His calling her a "good guy" is based on how she responded to Lochner's interrogation and then her strong, definitive answers to Dix.* He?s saying thank you for being his alibi (without the implication that she may have fabricated anything? they both know he?s innocent.) _Frank said to Jackie_: *Dix does kill their relationship by leaving Laurel at the end. It's not Laurel who leaves, but Dix.* He left because he is convinced she is no good and she?s not worth it. Okay, maybe. This is his tragedy because even after everything he still doesn?t get it, he doesn?t he get that she really loves him. A few minutes earlier she approached him with that cigarette after he apologized for the scene in the restaurant. Would she have done that if she had been deceiving him the whole time and that she didn't love him.? I think we are supposed to make something of what she did there. Couldn?t he see that as a conciliatory gesture? He doesn?t, because he sees what he wants. He sees the ring is gone. Might he have tried to ask her why she took the ring off. No, he reacts violently. Laural loved him to the end but she could not control her fear of him and her pulling away was seen by him as betrayal. And so he acts out. They are both trapped in their own stuff, their own baggage. Laural?s fear is based on reality, on what she Dix do and yes, to an extent on what other said but to a lesser extent?Dix?s fear was self centered, inveterate psychological problems, inner demons, whatever you call it that served as filter to his perceptions?and then reacted out of personal insecurity...angrily. Dix?s volatile reactions cannot be dismissed by simply saying that he had provocations that were real and that he acted justifiably but that his reactions were excessive. His excessive behavior, his long past that we know, the central incident with JoeC, and here at the end is of great importance. It affected both of them. It?s a large part of the story. If his normal reactions were more solicitous and less violent he may have tried to talk to her. He may have a reason to approach her anew by doing what he has always done and done quite sympathetically too, namely, apologize and say it won?t happen again, and now with this new information about his innocence. My thought is that she ended it. When she said, ?Yesterday, it would have meant something?? she is saying she can?t go on and he leaves (Whatever one believes it still seems unlikely to me that he would not just leave, but they needed an ending and they chose that one.) Can we take a poll on that one. What do people think of Dix walking off like that at the end. a) Dix left Laura Laural left Dix c) Not sure _Frank says to Jackie_: *Dix knows Laurel is a "quitter," so he does get what he deserves.* When does he knows this? From the beginning? Why would he ever trust her then? _Frank said to Jackie:_ *And that's a great point. Laurel DID tell him she didn't like to be rushed. She should have reminded him of this.* She did, when she did not want to rush into marriage. _Jackie to Frank:_ *Now, she tells him she wants to wait to marry, and he tells her she has 10 seconds.* _Frank to Jackie_: *See, I always thought he was being cute with that. He's very nervous when he's asking her to marry him.* Not a good time to be cute, Frank. If he spent more time trying to find out why she wanted to wait and less time being cute, we may have had a happier ending. _Frank to Jackie_: *Laurel and Mildred are not being forced to do anything. They are the ones in power. We men can only ask, you women make the decision. Mildred could have said no to Dix and he would have been powerless to do anything about that. It's the same with Laurel. Dix said he was going to have dinner with Laurel and she told him that they weren't. End of story.* But to say simply that Laural could have simply said ?no? (to marriage proposal) is not paying attention to what?s happening there. She is in conflict. And ouch! Are you equating being asked to dinner is the same as being asked to marry. The gravity of the two situations should be enough to make this comparison invalid?not to mention that the dinner request was made early when they didn?t know each other and the marriage proposal was much later when things were at a boiling point. _Frank to Jackie:_ *?The reason Laurel starts to deceive Dix is because she fears for her life. She thinks Dix is going to kill her just as he killed Mildred Atkinson. She's not telling Mel, "he's controlling me, possessing me." It's all about her thinking he's going to kill her.* That sounds like a pretty good reason to me. And because of that, I cannot call that deception, per se. When you fear for your life, the motive is self-preservation, not to deceive others. Not in that sense that you appear to mean it. This is why I don?t believe she qualifies for femme fatale status. She is not ?deceiving? him out of malice, or because she want something from him, do expressly do him harm, or because she is doing something that someone else wants her to for reason of some gain to be hand (money, etc.) to do, there is no willfully malicious or conscious intent from Laural to harm to him. She is in conflict and she is acting the way she does because she is fearing for her life (as you say above), not because she is a deceitful woman. Frank, I don?t think you understand Laural ///

*oh but you see, Laurel, is the kind of gal who would just hand you abottle of rum and expect you to give her a kiss for it!* You mean I get the rum _and_ the kiss? I may have to ponder this Maybe femme fatales are not so bad after all. (Don't ask Walter Neff, though...or Chris Cross) *thats a word too! honest! maybe thats the one i spelled wrong. you know me...i cant spell anything right. * Just as I suspected, we're gonna have to get you a spell checker...an International one, since you speak so many languages *Dix never had this kind of torture...* Depends who you ask //

*Hey, do I care? Just so long as I have mine! (rum)* *no you cant have yours! its too dangerous...its for your own safety....pirates need to be protected too ya know. even if they have to be told by Gloria Grahame.....she's telling me to tell you that! * Well, okay, if Gloria said so. (Hey wait a minute, I want my rum!) But just so long it isn't that Laural, she's nothin' but a femme fatale, you can't believe anything she says. *no i didnt make that up! i specifically remember learning that in high school silly pirate! it means "likewise pal". look it up, im surely you wil find that somewhere........i dont think i made it up.heehee! wow, thats really bad, now i have to look it up!* Oohhhhhhhhhhh, pareillement...mmm, yep, you're right. I was talking about *pote.* Was that supposed to pirate. Oh no, don't tell me we're going to have to give you a spelling test every time you log on. tsk, tsk. Swasheroo ///

A STOLEN LIFE ...as it was determined that a life had been stolen and would everyone please pitch in and see if they could find it. At once all were looking it though no one had the slightest idea what one looked like. But it is was generally believed that it would be instantly recognizable. Then someone yelled out and said, "I found it!" All eyes turned to from whence this utterance had emanated and were amused to see...

84 "Okay, okay, we like your imitation of the Statue of Liberty, but will you put the girl down now?"

*You do what you wish. All I can do is explain and ask. If my questions go unanswered, they do. But I still must ask them, for I wish to know what others think.* Frank, I answered that way, somewhat at length, because you are investing time to make your responses and you mentioned at the same time that being replied to was important to you and I want to respect that. If time constraints prevent me from making full responses then that might not be fair to you. I will always try to respond to you. *Too bad Dix couldn't have said to her, "Hey, babe, I love you and I want you to be my wife, why wait, honey."* *Would Laurel tell him? How is Dix to know anything when all Laurel does is lie to him?* In the previous scene with Sylvia she told how difficult it was for her to air her feelings so we know she wanted to be able to talk to Dixon. In the marriage proposal scene she tells him she loves him and I if that's true and I believe she is telling the truth with that (Do you?) I believe the story line was about the possibility that she might be willing to talk to him if showed he was open for that. That scene was as much about whether she would talk to him as Dixon being able to loosen up, forget his fear of hearing no and rejection, and talk with her as well. *What's a guy to do?* Not what he did, I hope. *Is it curious at all that he would turn to her and say, "You're lying," when she says that she did not tell him because she did not want to worry him? Does he think she is betraying him? Already? This was the golden age of their relationship, they were happy at that point.* *Yes, he feels betrayed. He feels that a knife has been stuck in his back by the woman he loves. Dix is a murder suspect and he needs to know his woman is on his side; that she believes in him. He needs to confide in her trust. Without that, there's no strength in their relationship. And since they are so happy together, the betrayal hurts all the more. He was blindsided, just as he blindsides the car of "Joe College."* It's curious the movie didn't make more of this. To repeat, If he feels so betrayed why did he forgive her so fast? And why didn't he follow up on it. Its an unresolved issue. It almost seems like a throw away line, as if the screenplay wanted him to say something to her, so they came up with, "Your lying." The fact is he just turned away from her and got mad at Brub, and for good reason because they went behind his back to take Laural down to the station. And if he says she's lying about not telling him then there must be another reason but he seems uninterested what that reason is. *It seems what Lochner and Martha said turned out to be the truth, didn't it? He finally did act out on her.* *Lochner asks Lauren if it "frightens her that a killer is at large," intimating that Dix is the killer. Martha tells Lauren that "they still don't know who killed that checkroom girl," intimating that Dix is the killer. They are proved wrong. In fact, Lochner has to apologize for being wrong. Martha would never apologize for her being wrong.* Yes, of course, they were wrong about Dixon killing Mildred but I took part of the meaning of those scenes as implying that Dixon would act out on Laural. Martha went so far to point out that Dixon beat up the other girl and there might beat up Laural if she stayed with them. They were right about that. *Either Laurel believes Dix killed Mildred or she doesn't.* But how can she know for sure? I believe she thinks not or she wouldn't have hooked up with him in the first place. But a doubt as been planted because of the JoeC scene. She has seen his temper. That's what the story is about at this point. For me, anyway. *There's no "of course," "maybe," or "but."* That sounds like a Dixon Steel marriage proposal *Does she even know what she believes? Sylvia tells her, "you know Dix didn't do it." Laurel says, "I know." Does she know?* She said, "I know," in that way when we murmur something that we want to be sure about. But of course she can't know for sure. She's not God. *I never know where Laurel stands on anything.* That's the story. She is in conflict. *She's all over the place.* ??? *"But Lochner has a different idea. He thinks she may have done it."* I'm in the camp that says Laural would not give this a second thought if she had not seen Dixon act out on JoeC. She has already demonstrated that she did not believe what Lochner told her, pre JoeC. I thought she came across totally on Dixon's side after that meeting and she seemed comfortable with him after that meeting. If you don't value the significance of the JoeC scene then of course you're going to be confused about Laural and accuse of her of listening to others.

*Hey Mr. I've lost my rum Pirate!* Hey, do I care? Just so long as I have mine! *pareillement pote! (i think i remember thats how you spell it. heehee)* I don't understand that. What are doing, making up your own French again? Butterscotch Butterscotch She like to interrupt But we don't mind so motch Because she brings the rum Okay, okay, so the last line didn't rhyme, but I only had a few minutes, hoo hoo. *but honestly, i do think we should stick on the subject of mean Laurel and handsome Dix. * No fear, I'm sure we shall.

I know the dog show is practically over but I am just now catching up with this thread having been detained by a protracted sojourn In A Lonely Place so I hope you don't mind if I post this wonderful specimen of dogdom. This fella does not belong to me but he has such a remarkable face and I have always thought that he could serve as a poster dog for boxers everywhere. His nose is a little fuzzy but it does nothing to to the view of this remarkable face. His name is Pippo. Thanks.

DON QUIXOTE ...was seen on the plane and who began to charge the pilot because he thought the pilot was windmill, this despite the fact that the pilot resembled a six-story apartment building much more that a windmill. This was lost on poor Don because they didn't have apartment buildings in Spain in 1635 and it should be noted that Manolo el del bombo hadn't been born yet and good thing too because he loves soccer more than anything and soccer hadn't been invented yet and he was therefore spared a lot if disappointment. But Sancho seeing the danger that his master might cause with his overzealous moral imperative to right the wrongs of civilization intervened by...