laffite

*Mon Swasheroo! Bonjour!* Bonjour Miss Banquet Organizer Supreme! *Comment allez-vous ?* Je vais tres bien, tres content to recevoir de vos nouvelles! *i really didnt mean to interupt your In a Lonely Place discussion.* Please be advised that Madamoiselle Butterscotchgreer may interrupt the Lonely Place discussion any time she pleases. Swasheroo

_Rohanaka_ wrote: *As to what Laurel means... I likely should go back and rewatch this to make sure, but I am thinking that she is sort of feeling guilty that she is having doubts now about Dix.Between the things she's seen, and the things she's heard, she is rattled and having a hard time balancing her love for Dix and her fear of him. And she is laying the blame at Lochner's feet. It is a way for her to justify the frustration and the fear she is feeling without blaming DIX. (or herself) by saying LOCHNER is the one causing all the trouble.* Exactly right. She is referring not so much to Lochner or even her visit. She is referring to the investigation. It as nothing to do with ?listening to people.? _Jackie_ wrote: *She told him at their second meeting that she did not like to be rushed. Now, she tells him she wants to wait to marry, and he tells her she has 10 seconds. That is forcing her to do something against her will, thus controlling her. Dix wants what HE wants WHEN he wants it, and to hell with anyone else's feelings. Just as he persuaded Mildred to break her date so he didn't have to read the book, he now wants Laurel to make her decision at his convenience. If she had done everything he wanted.* Exactly right. And Laural is accused of lying to him when she says yes to marriage. That is not a lie. And she is accused of lying to him when she doesn?t tell him about the pills. That is not a lie. To call those lies is to ignore the context. She was forced into assenting to marriage and she made no attempt to hide the pills. She is afraid of Dix?at least at this point. Dix?s controlling behaviour is reaching a peak here and he spirals downward as the story draws to conclusion, but it was always there. Early on in that long apartment scene when they were being a ?team? he gently cradles her chin and says something like, ?You?ll do such and such and when I tell you do it.? It was done in an affectionate manner because she was acting the way he wanted her to and she took it well because this was a happy time for them but the impulse to control is already shown to be a part of Dix. It is in his nature. The need to control precludes trust. I'm not sure he ever really trusted her completely but he loved her?in his own way. _Jackie_ wrote: *Please answer me one question, though - If Laurel is the cut and run type, why doesn't she cut and run?* She is not a cut and run type. As you suggest, if she were a runner she could have left at any time during this protracted fear cycle (which lasts half the movie). You also say, Jackie, ?He seems after all to have control issues, possession issues just the same as Baker.? She left Baker on her own terms and she was able to say coolly and confidently, ??because it wouldn?t have worked out.? She could have made that same decision with Dix and left at any time. But she didn?t because she loved him and was willing to cope with fear to have her love for him fulfilled. He wouldn?t let her because his own issues and his own behavior exaserbated her fears. She only left because she felt herself in danger, not because she is a runner. And *Frank* you chose two screen caps that don?t occur until the very end of the story. If she were runner she would have left a long time ago and we would have been walking up the aisle out of the theater still eating our popcorn. But also let me congratulate you on 8,000. Yes, only to happy to oblige once again now that the Chargers have vanquished two Cowboy rivals in successive weeks. They are surprising me, these Bolts. I had given up on them. Did not see Dallas game but hard to understand what happened there. It beginning to look like, Frank, that the showdown on Dec 13 might be a big game for both teams.. ps. hello there Madamoiselle ButterScotchGreer? Edited by: laffite on Nov 16, 2009 1:16 PM for clarity

CAST A DARK SHADOW ...on the whole proceeding by hacking all the computers in the world which stranded some people on websites and others on servers and even one on an Ipod that was syncing just as the hacker was doing the dastardly deed and was now on someone's ITunes which was embarrassing since he couldn't even sing a song much less play a musical instrument and besides that it was damn cramped in that Ipod because it was only an 8GB nano. But a worse plight was that of a person who found himself...

*Dix kisses with his eyes closed while Laurel does so with them open. Dix's kiss is serious, heartfelt, and trusting. Laurel's kiss is unsure, deceptive, and distrusting. Dix remains in the dark. Blind trust.* Her eyes are open because she is afraid. She was afraid of what he might do to her if she had said no. You have said all along that Dix loved her and he does but from this scene on he starts to unravel. This does not mean he doesn't love her but he is so insecure about losing her he does not come across as if he does and she can feel it.I believe *Rohanaka* referred to this as the "domino" effect. I think it's actually called "aversive behavior." You are afraid of being rejected so you clutch at what you want which results only in pushing the desired object away. That's what Dix was doing to Laural in this scene and it had the effect of exacerbating her already existing fear. She felt forced to say yes and then he kissed her. Nicholas Ray gave us this shot to show us how this is affecting Laural and it is a telling one. Yes, Dix looks like he got what he wanted and is shown kissing her like that but he seems totally unaware of what is going on with her. When you kiss someone you normally cab tell if the one you are kissing is responding the way you want but this doesn't register with Dix. He is so insecure at this point with his possessiveness and control that he cares only that he has gotten a yes answer from her, not so much as a happily married man but as a man who has filled up hole in this gut for lack of the woman he always wanted. I don't mean to make sound mean, he simply has issues. I said earlier and you cited: ...*he is not seeing her correctly* and just above I wrote: "...he seems totally unaware of what is going on with her." You answered the former citation with: *How can he see her when she is nothing but deceptive?* I have to but disagree. Yes she was fearful but it is not fair, in my view, to characterize her as deceptive. True, she is afraid to tell her what's on her mind and we know why but there is evidence in that scene that she might be willing to . She says to him, "I love you" while they were on the couch perhaps to get him to say it back to he, looking for a bit of softness in him to give her courage...and when she said that she wanted to wait before getting married, surely a reasonable request in view of the fact that he wanted an answer in 20 seconds about getting married that very night, she might have hoped he would ask her, "why" in a way that would have allowed her to actually air her feelings. That's what she wanted in that scene. She was looking for a rapprochement with him. She wasn't trying to deceive him. *Betrayal: To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance.* *Dix is a murder suspect and the Captain is attempting to pin a murder on him.* Is he trying to pin a murder on him...or is he simply conducting an investigation? I think the latter. *From Dix's point of view, the Captain is the enemy.* The metaphor is overwrought. This isn't a battlefield. I only mention this in view of the definition above that you have cited, as if we are talking about a war. *Laurel's not telling him the enemy asked her in for more questioning and told her horrible things about him is a violation of his trust and her allegiance to him.* Yes, she should have told him. But she didn't because she didn't want to worry him. That's what she actually said and she comes as if she was telling the truth. To see her on the screen as seeming to tell the truth is what is important to me because that's the story. So I believe her. At worst she made a mistake. I think accusing her of betrayal with respect to the above definition is to harsh. To do that she would have to be willfully malicious with a real intent to harm and she obviously is not that. You are being to harsh on her in that regard. But, yes, from Dix's point of view, and even mine if it were me, I would have wanted her to tell me. *Dix responds as how I think he would respond. He's very upset at Laurel because his driving fast is basically his blood pressure level. He's definitely angry. But he's dealing with his anger. He's not going to beat up Laurel. He loves her. Her's not a maniac. He's just a guy who is upset with his woman. While I don't know this feeling, I'm sure many others know what it feels like to be upset with the one you love.* Okay. *What is Lochner doing to them? Is he locking them in a room and beating them with a stick? I'd really like an answer to this question: what is it that Lochner is doing to them?* I confess i don't know what this means either. It doesn't seem to mean anything. Unless she means that in the sense of how Lochner is affecting _her_ and therefore _them_, i.e., Laural and Dix. Now before you jump all over that as being listening to others, please remember she has her own experience of Dix's violence from the JoeC inicident, in fact she goes on to say to Sylvia: "There is something strange about Dix, isn't there? I keep worrying about it. I stay awake nights worrying about it. Then he shows up for breakfast with an armload of packages, and he is so sweet and so kind that he makes me feel...," and then Sylvia finishes the sentence ..."ashamed how you feel." Laural never would have said that had she not had the experience of witnessing Dix's anger. And I believe that this is what's driving Laural, not "listening to others," and there is a distinction there. A legitimate fear does not a weak woman make. At least the way the JoeC scene was filmed and the impression I had on what it meant. And BTW, do those words sound like a deceitful woman? Not to me anyway, I think she is sincere and truly worried and loves Dix and in the ensuing conversation reveals how difficult it is to tell Dix her feelings. To me, she comes across honestly as someone who is truely conflicted and I sympathize with her. That kind of fear is tough to deal with but she is doing it because she loves him. *And this is another very important question that needs to be answered: what has Dix done to Laurel at this point?* *He ADORES her! He's sacrificing all over the place for her. He doesn't want Effie to wake her, he helps turn off her alarm, he's concerned she is taking pills, he goes and makes breakfast for her. My goodness, he's completely committed to this woman. When he says that "anyone looking at us could tell we were in love," he means that. You see, Dix is very honest. He's not hiding his feelings. He loves Laurel and he believes she loves him. We, the audience, know different because we know Laurel is deceiving him. She's not telling him her true feelings. But Dix doesn't know this. Again, this isn't about us or Laurel, it's about Dix. Take Dix's point of view. He's in the dark.* I agree with all of this except the sentence, ..."We, the audience, know different because we know Laurel is deceiving him." This was the scene when Dix was still able to treat her in a loving manner. He lost this later and yes it was because of Laural. He was not understanding that she was fearful of him and she in turn could not talk to him about her fears. *Molo* was right when he said that they "...never had the conversation they needed." They were in worlds of their own. They were like two circles that moved around and close to each other but never overlapped and had common ground. In a way, that's the story of the whole movie. But she was not deceiving him. You don't take pills to deceive someone, you take them, at least in her case, because she riddled with a fear that she could not rid herself of. Laffite: *She is the one who is aware. Dix is the one who?s hiding. Hiding within himself.* *I respectfully disagree.* I disavow what I said there. I don't think that any more. I am more inclined to believe what I just said about never being synced with one another. And you're right, hiding is not the right word. I would say Dix is trapped...and of course Laural is too. They are both fearful, Laural of Dix's possible violence, Dix of self-centerd---I don't mean that disparagingly, I mean it clinically---fear, but more specifically as the movie progressed, of losing Laural. I renounce all that psychological mumbo-jumbo about Dix I wrote in this post you are answering, Frank, that doesn't ring true to me now. I'm more inclined to drop the blame game. They are both suffering. // Edited by: laffite on Nov 16, 2009 2:24 AM to remove some reduncies

Laffite wrote: *Laural's visit to Lochner is a minor point. There is no importance to it at all. There is certainly no betrayal. The visit to the doctor is a MacGuffin. It only serves to move the story along.* You disagree with this and for good reason. I am still having trouble understanding where I was coming from. I believe I was thinking that the subject of the visit coming up as it did when they were all so happy on the beach sort of jump started the action from there and that there is a relative unimportance to the scene itself. But it seems _silly_ now. (This time I tried eating my words with a little little turmeric...not bad) And of course the scene with Lochner is important as we know by now and as we will be reminded later I don't feel the scene is as important as others. *Dix isn't upset at Laurel's going to the station. He knows she has no say in that. He had to go to the station, too. What Dix is upset over is her NOT TELLING HIM.* Okay, good point. Is it curious at all that he would turn to her and say, "You're lying," when she says that she did not tell him because she did not want to worry him? Does he think she is betraying him? Already? This was the golden age of their relationship, they were happy at that point. And if it were something so serious as that how was he able to forgive her so fast? And why did he not bring it up later? The ensuing scene, nearly bashing the kid, changed the story for us, for Laural, but not for Dix, he calms down and started talking screenplay with her. Why didn't he follow up on this if he thought he was being betrayed? That's really serious, not something that Dix would overlook. But he seems to forget about it. I know you say, Frank, that he forgave her quickly but that's a powerful heavy thing forgive in such a short space of time. Whatever the reason he said that ot her, my thought was that he didn't think much of it because he turned immediately to Brub and seemed concerned about the police investigation and that was what really triggered his anger at that point. I'm a little murky on this issue so maybe you can clear it up but I am suspecting that whatever the answer, it might not be as important as what happens next. *If you listen to Lochner and Martha, you would believe it would be dire consequences. But that's not the truth.* I'm a little unclear as to the context of this statement you made relative to our conversation, I admit I am too lazy to go back and read what you were responding to but at least clear this up for me, Frank. It seems what Lochner and Martha said turned out to be the truth, didn't it? He finally did act out on her. I know you will say, well, it was Laural's fault (we can't get into that right now because that's complicated) but even if you want to believe that (and I don't, at least not directly) the fact remains that he did act violently towards her. We will argue whether it is Laural's fault or not but we hopefully we can agree that with his issues, it is at least arguable that his acting out might have occurred with any relationship that he may have had with anybody. And God knows what we are expected to think what he might be capable of when Dix walks out of the patio at the end of the film. It's hard to speculate like this but it's at least arguable that Dix was just not fit for a true relationship. Lochner had police reports and Martha knew about the other girl so they were not just making things up and it seems to me that what they saw actually transpired again with Dix. They both serve as foreshadowing devices. But the fact remains that despite all that and what they said to her, that Laural Grey is her own woman and she _chose not to believe either one of them_. She _loved_ Dix too much for that. *Lochner's "warning" is the turning point in the film when it comes to Laurel going from a strong woman to a weak one.* But I disagree with that. As I said in a subsequent post, she did not listen to Lochner, she rejected what Lochner said to her about Dix's violence. She entered his office a strong woman and she left his office a strong woman, not a weak one. Yes, she eventually gave some creedence to the Lochner visit but only because she saw Dix nearly bash the kid's head in. That's what changed her, not the Lochner visit. And even that didn't make her a weak woman. Here's what I wrote in a subsequent post, Frank, which at this writing, I don't think you've seen yet: "Laural is not a weak woman who lets people poison her mind. She is a strong person who was shattered because she saw something with her own two believing eyes." Even a strong woman can be justifiably fearful. She saw Dix nearly kill the kid in a way that for the time was probably quite graphic at the time this movie was made. The image of holding a rock in the air like that and what that rock would do to that boy's face. Nicholas Ray gave us that scene because he wanted to show the extent of what Dix was capable of and he want to show how that scene affected Laural. It changed her, this was the change, Frank, not Lochner, not Martha. Something like that could change anybody, you, me, anyone alive, the strong or the weak. Again, as I suggested in the subsequent post, go look at the close up they give Laural as Dix puts the rock down and returns to the car. She has been stunned and what has happened to her here explains her behavior from here on out. I don't believe this because I like Laural and I want to defend her, I believe this because Nicholas Ray wants me to believe this. He put it up right there on the screen for me to see. He wanted me to see that a fear has taken root in Laural---a fear that anyone, even the strongest of the strong would cave to---and it will give her cause to take a second look at the Lochner and Martha meetings (which she had earlier roundly rejected let's remember), a fear that she will courageously do battle with from now until the end of the story because of her constant, undying love for Dixon Steele. == Okay, again, a little dramatic, my apologies. But no wonder I don't like these line-by-line queries. But the fault is mine, I just talk too much (more to come) Laffite

CineMaven and Jackie, Thank you for clearing that up. Yes, when I read that remark that Miss Goddess wrote to Frank I thought the discussion was over and I nearly did not send that one long post and felt I had to be apologetic in doing so. So maybe there is no particular hurry and we can keep going. At least Gloria will always be in the news around here if we do . Yes, I think it's possible talk something to death but I don't think the discussion of this great film has been exhausted as yet. Meantime ole Laffite is busy trying to tackle all the homework that FrankGrimes has assigned. Frank, if you ever become a college professor, don't let me take your class. It's way too much work

IN GAY MADRID ...as well as the Big Apple as many of these would-be frog blower uppers were dispersed in other places as well such as Casablanca and Mobile, Alabama. The sensation of floating o'er the continents and the sea was downright gosh darn exhilarating and they liked this so much they prayed to the Almighty that they were not dreaming and if they were not to wake up so much fun was this until that is the bubble got burst when God looked down and saw that this was all a violation of nature and that maybe he was losing his influence on the orb called Earth so he asserted his authority and showing whose boss by...

*What I mean to say is Laurel doesn't deny to Dix that she ran out on Baker and that she's "avoiding" him. She even asks if Dix can keep her name out of the papers* It?s natural for her to not want a powerful man like Baker to know her whereabouts. It?s her only weapon against him. If he were upset about her leaving he might try to find her and naturally she wouldn?t want that. She?s through with him. *She tells him that she and Baker were thinking of getting married, "It wouldn't have worked", she said.* She seemed self assured and confident when she said that and it makes me feel that there may have been something equally confident in her leaving him, as if she didn?t like what was going on and left on her own accord. *He later tells her she's "a get out quick before you get hurt type" and she doesn't deny this either.* This conversation was in the early going before she and Dix decided to give it a go and she was perhaps guarded in what she wanted to say to him. She may not have wanted to affirm or deny anything at that point. In keeping with that she coolly refused to let him kiss her and even refused a dinner invitation. The fact that she did not respond defensively to that remark indicates a certain poise on her part. *I used the words she "didn't trust Baker or her feelings about him" in the sense that something certainly spooked her from wanting to marry him, while Baker evidently is still wanting her and looking for her if she's laying low in the Patio Apartments. Why?* We don?t know. She may have had a good reason. It?s hard to speculate because we aren?t given information on that. I?m going to try and get the DVD again, hopefully by the beginning of next week and watch these early scenes again. *Why does the director even bring up her past with Baker at all, and in such terms that she left him? One can speculate endlessly on the details, but it boils down to she either didn't love the guy or didn't trust the relationship. I should have said something didn't feel right to her, not that she didn't trust him out of fear of him. It sounds like fear of commitment was in back of it.* Well, you know me The back story on Laural might be to show that she was a strong person. She appears cool at this early juncture in the story and it?s possible that she emerged relatively unscathed from the relationship with Baker. If she was really fed up with him she and left on her own accord she might not be experiencing the usual trauma that result from breakups. I know that fear of commitment is something that you have brought up before but I just don?t know whether there is evidence for that. She looks the type of person that would not be afraid of commitment. She tells Dix directly that she is interested in a relationship with him and for the way they seem to glom on to each other in that long apartment scene seems to suggest that both of them are open to commitment. *That is how I look at it, for what it's worth. I hope I was a little clearer this time. * Miss Goddess, thank you for your reply. As I said above, I need to get the DVD but I appreciate very much thoughtfulness and the detail in what you said. *Now can we move on to Dodsworth so we can go back to mutual disagreement? This just hasn't felt natural! * Miss Goddess, I?m curious about this you wrote on Thursday last. When I saw this I took the conversation about IALP to be over and a new discussion to begin. I was referring to this in recent posts where I have sort of semi-apologized for continuing to talk about IALP etc etc?and then it recently occurred that this was the Gloria Grahame thread and not Movie Rambles and wondered why we would be talking about Dodsworth here. So I?m asking now, is it the idea to talk about Dodsworth here on the Gloria thread? If not, then is there no special hurry with IALP? I sometimes think I have to respond hurriedly and it would be nice to feel that we might be a little bit more leisurely talking about IALP, that is if it is to continue. It would help due to some time constraints. Unless there is a plan to discuss another Gloria movie and we need to wrap it up with IALP. So I guess I'm asking, what's the plan here? Is there a hurry to wrap up IALP? Or is there something waiting in the wings that needs to start soon?

*...but she never really trusted Baker or her feelings for him, nor does she now with Dix.* Bonjour MissGoddess I don't have the DVD (if this discussion persists I'll try to get it from the library again) so forgive me for that. If I had the DVD I would review some of the early scenes, especially about Baker, and then try to answer my own queston here. I don't recall that many references to him and I was wondering what there is the film that suggests that she did not trust Baker. I realize that the film cannot tell us everything but there might be an inference to this effect that I am simply not remembering. I am open to considering anything there is to suggest that. This is not meant as a challenge to you, Miss Goddess, I am actually seeking information. I will admit I may have a blind spot with regard to Laural. I suspect I may be perceiving her as bit too squeaky clean. I don't seem to think she has all that much of her sleeve but am perfectly willing to see differently if I can find the evidence for it.

I was trying to be at least mildly entertaining by the way that last post was presented and maybe a bit too cutesy in some places but I wanted point out that at least to me the bashing scene is the turning point of the story because it changed Laural, but not from a strong woman to a weak woman and a woman who listened to others. Rather this: The bashing leaves me open to consider that she was able to see for herself what others were saying and by doing so was able to think for herself. She is able to act on her own behalf and therefore come across as all the stronger for it. She showed us that she does not listen to others because she rejected outright what Lochner and Martha were saying and I think I am meant to feel that the those scenes were intended to show me that. That's partly what those scene s were for. She roundly rejected what they said and reconsidered only in light of what she witnessed herself when she saw Dix pick up the rock. She wasn't listening to others, she was listening to herself. *I won't have time to post today and tomorrow, but I should be able to reply to you on Monday. I hope you or someone else takes the time to answer a few of the questions I posed in my prior post with caps, for those questions are important to me.* I was hoping that my last response would not trigger a lengthy response. It wasn't meant to be-all end-all interpretation of the story but rather a sort of "cutesy" way of putting across just a few points. I would welcome a lengthy response, however, if it could be in essay form. I will be honest I find the line-by-line method exhausting and time-consuming and it's not fun for me (unless it is reasonably short) but I know you like to do that so I will do my best to answer. But please don't be disappointed if I don't answer to your satisfaction and I say that because I know it takes a long time and hard work to prepare responses like that and I don't want you do all that work for nothing. But let me repeat, I will welcome a lengthy respone, the longer the better, if you could write it out. So I am interested in your take. But please, understand, if you do a line-by-ling response I will do my very best to answer, so i don't want to discourage from answering the way you prefer. I will try to go back and look at that earlier response that I didn't answer. That took a lot of work and should be responded to. I was planning to do that but decided against it because I thought the discussion was over. (I so much as referred to this in an earlier post, I think just yesterday in fact.) And then it took up again. In the meantime maybe you could oe'r look that post and tell me which ones you feel are the most important and let me know. But I promise, I'll go back and have a look and do as best I can. You deserve that. I will be honest here. I did not have a clue where you were coming from in this film from your earlier posts. it was this last one you did, the one I haven't answered, where it finally clicked for me. This is me perhaps. I saw screen craps with rhetorical questions underneath and a dearth of actual explaining what you meant. It was a sort of puzzle for me. I had trouble putting all that together and then understanding precisely where your coming from. I see that it's a fun and it is an interesting way to do it and I will tell you this, those early posts were still vastly entertaining. In fact I found them intriguing. You should direct a film. You put them across very well and they came across as thought provoking, but as far as explaining precisely what your meaning was, was unsuccessful to Laffite's dull mind. Laffite needs diagrams or he doesn't understand. I'm serious, it's like when I watch a movie for the first time, I miss everything. (It doesn't help that we have such a striking different view of the film. Maybe that was part of my problem too.) In the meantime, Frank, have a good weekend. The Chargers will do their utmost to fullfill your request, that of dispatching the Eagles for you. If the Chargers keep helping the Cowboys like this they might want a share of all those Super Bowl rings. Edited by: laffite on Nov 14, 2009 1:59 PM

DOWN TO THE SEA IN SHIPS ...went after going to the United Nations and being denied membership in this useless group being told that they had no use for a frog who had hiccups for having eaten all those people and they heartily laughed in his face. So to sea this frog went in the hope of becoming an island instead of a third-world country because he liked beaches and because there was a revolution going on in his belly and he didn't have any aspirin. Just then a squall commenced and made him feel...

*The "Joe College beating" versus the "Lochner meeting". Those who are more sympathetic to Laurel place more emphasis on the one, while those more sympathetic to Dix place more emphasis on the other.* I think the JoeC is the turning point because she saw Dix pick up a rock and almost kill a kid because the kid called him a squirrel. She saw it with her own eyes. No one told her about this. Laural has a fear of Dix not because she is a wishy washy person who listens to people. She has a fear because she saw with her own eyes Dix pick up a rock and almost kill a kid because the kid called him a squirrel. Laural is not a weak woman who lets people poison her mind. She is a strong person who was shattered because she saw something with her own two believing eyes. Laural showed us that she does not listen to people. She told Lochner and Martha to shove it. She loves Dix and she doesn't believe it. She rejects what other people tell her and because she has a mind of her own and she knows she loves Dix. She thinks the best of him. She doesn't listen to these people. At the beach Laural and Dix are happy. Lochner and Martha are forgotten. Dix and Laural love each other. Then Laural sees Dix pick up a rock and almost kill a boy because the boy called him a squirrel. She is STUNNED. Go and look at it. She gets a close up to die for. She is stricken. Something has happened to her. She softens a bit and says out aloud, "Did you do that just because he called you that." (paraphrase). But look at her for the rest of the scene. She is shaken. She still loves Dix but a teeny doubt has entered her mind. She had forgotten about Lochner and Martha, but now she remembers what they said. She still does not believe what Lochner and Martha told her...but there is a teeny germ of a doubt in her mind now. She loves Dix but despite her best efforts she _now_ cannot quite dismiss so easily what Lochner and Martha told her. She is haunted by these thoughts. She is haunted by these thoughts because they are thoughts that are unwanted. She is a strong woman who doesn't let people tell her what to think but she can't quite get these unwanted thoughts to go away. She loves Dix and does not want to believe that he is a bad man who could kill. Laural loves Dix and her problem is to get rid of this fear. She wants Sylvia to laugh at her for being so afraid and Sylvia says "Tell him how you feel." Laural says, "What to say, tell him I can't marry him unless he tells me whether or not he killed Mildred." We know from the beginning that Laural does not think Dix killed Mildred. She comes down to his apartment the day after the interrogation scene. She is unafraid. She likes Dix and wants to enter into a relationship with him. She's not worried about the Mildred thing. But after seeing Dix pick up a rock and almost kill a boy because the boy called him a squirrel, she now feels, against her will, that's it's just possible that Dix might have killed Mildred. She doesn't really believe it though. She is a strong woman who knows her mind and she really doesn't believe that Dix killed Mildred. But...there is that little doubt now because of what she saw with her own two eyes, not of what someone told her. She loves Dix and we know from her conversation with Sylvia that Laural wants to talk to Dix, more than ever. She loves Dix very much and wants to get rid of all this fear. Dix brings up marriage. Laural wants to wait because she is not comfortable entering into a marriage until she can reconcile these fears. She loves Dix more than ever but she is still afraid. She tells him , "I love you," while they're sitting on the couch and she means it. Too bad Dix couldn't have said to her, "Hey, babe, I love you and I want you to be my wife, why wait, honey." She might have told him her fears. But instead he rushes her to answer. When she feels his hands grip her shoulders tightly and demand a yes answer, she is not thinking, "People have told me this man might show violence towards me." No, she is thinking, "These are the hands that picked up a rock and almost killed a boy because the boy called him a squirrel. And now he appears to be upset and has asked me to marry him and wants me to say yes...so what am I going to say...no?" No, she can't say no because she just doesn't know what he'll do to her. Not because she is a weak woman who has changed and who listens to other people and is lying to him and being deceitful but because she is a strong woman who is afraid because she saw him pick up a rock and almost kill a boy because the boy called him a squirrel. She can't go through with it. Not because she is being deceitful. She does not want to deceive Dix. She LOVES him. Still. But she is afraid and she feels she has a right to be. Not because of what someone has told her but because of what he did that she witnessed. Dix leaves the house and bumps into Mel who rushes happily up the stairs only to find Laural on the phone with Martha. She is leaving. Not because she is being deceitful. Not because she is runner. She is leaving because she is afraid. She has held on to her love for Dix and she STILL LOVES HIM but she can't accept living with him in marriage until she can feel more comfortable with him. He apologizes upstairs in her apartment. He is sorry for how he behaved in the restaurant. She shows us that she loves him by the way she approaches him slowly to offer him a cigarette. He looks up and notices that the ring is not on her finger. Oh Dix, Dix, why couldn't you have taken her hand gently and say, "Where is your ring, honey. I want my ring to be on hand of the woman I love and the woman I'm going to marry." She might have caved and told him everything. It might have all came rushing out. But he didn't do that. She loved him all the way to the end. She was not deceitful. She never wanted to hurt him. She only wanted to love him. But he just wouldn't let her. He wasn't able to because he has problems of his own. When she said, "Yesterday it would have meant something...but now..." she still loved him, I'm sure. But it was all over. Laural is strong women who was afraid of the man she loved. But she did not run. She is not a runner. She walked through fear to give her love for Dix every chance. That takes courage. She loved Dix and she would never, ever, ever, deceive him. She is constant in her love for him and courageous in facing her fear in an effort to get him. == Okay, okay, so I dramatized a bit. Sorry. I couldn't help it. But in case you haven't guessed, the idea is that Laural isn't a person who changed and who listens to other people, she actually witnessed that scene and saw what happened with the kid and she was able to think for herself and make her decisions on what she should do. This is why I think it is a turning point scene, the bashing of the kid. She saw it for herself and it changed her world because she for the first time got a horrid glimpse of what she had been told about Dix but didn't want to believe but the fact she saw it for herself gave her a chance to be strong because she is acting on what she knows first hand to be the truth. She does not really change, she is the same person from beginning to end but she does have this thing happen to her and it rocks her. She is not damaged goods and she is not a runner. She left Baker because it went bad with him and she got out. Dix says (paraphrase) "...so you left by the back door." She says resolutely, "Yes, by MY back door." She left on her own terms. She left from a position of strength, not from a position of weakness. And that's pretty food for a starlet who has nothing, to leave a mogul who has everything. Takes a lot of courage to do that. Anyway, FWIW. I know it's one-sided and probably not right..the film is a lot more complicated than that...and we have to consider Dix's point of view too. And I'm sure there are a myriad of screen caps out there that will contradict it. I don't mean this to be an explication for the entire film, just to dramatize why I think the kid scene is the (or one of the) most important scenes in the movie. But I like the general scheme. Yeah, I know, very pro Laural. (Maybe I like Laural because she is played by Gloria) //

*From my own point of view, I cannot say the Joe College incident and how it's viewed is that critical to me, not as much as the visit to Lochner's office. To me, that was the turning point.* Miss Goddess, what you have just said is fascinating! It explains why the pro-Laurals and the anti-Laurals think differently. At least I think it does. And both views are correct from it's own perspective. So, tonight, if i may, let me write just a little on why I believe the JoeC incident is the turning point and let's see if it makes any sense. It will be short. I might be all wrong but one thing I now know. I see how the sides come to different conclusions about Laural. Off to work.

*Oh my gosh, guys! You had better go on with this discussion! It can't end this way.....* Actually, I am not necessarily in favor of a continuation per se and although I had intended a essay type response to Frank's post I can do without that if the feeling here is that the discussion is spent. But I would like to bring this one point up and ask in effect whether or not the interpretation of that one scene can possibly explain a great deal of what separates the pro-Laurals and the anti-Laurals. Maybe I'm wrong but I am intrigued by this possibility. And i want to emphasize this, what I want to say is not a right-wrong thing, it's not confrontive in any way, it's not an effort to persuade. It's simply asking whether a two opposing takes on the same scene can result in wildly divergent views that everything that follows. I'm wondering if that applies here. If I'm being mysterious without being specific it's because there is no time right now but if I may I'll do it tonight when I get home from work and I promise you it will not be a long post. Perhaps no longer that this one. Jackie, I was apologizing for some snippiness of language, you know pirates are, out there plundering all the time, we sometimes forget the niceties of civilization (in fact, quite often). *I hope no one will run into Joe College......* Or Dixon Steele. Actually he's not that bad. Just don't let him run you down on the highway.

As usual, nicely done, Frank. And I guess I won?t get to reply, waahh. Even after all this discussion there is more to talk about. Just a couple of paragraphs, please. I never truly understood your take on this movie until I read your post last night and it strikes me that the major difference between us boils down to the interpretation a single scene because if affects everything that follows. And that?s the Joe College scene. One interpretation would make it appear that later in the movie she is weakly listening to others and perhaps is deceiving Dix with her behaviours, another interpretation would make it appear that listening to others is subordinate to something much bigger going on with Laural that precludes any notion that she deceives Dix and puts in her a more sympathetic light overall, IMO (I am adamant as ever in insisting that she is not a femme fatale ) That JoeC scene affects everything that follows. Because of its implications, it is the most important scene in the movie IMO. I was under the impression that my take on that scene was self-evident and was more or less accepted in the same way by all but after reading your post last night you appear not emphasize facets of that scene that I do allowing for a completely different interpretation of Laural, her motives, who she is. So it?s not a right-wrong thing that separates us, it?s a perspective thing, at least on this one, crucial, central issue. I would like to elaborate only slightly on that point but will not unless I get permission from the group. In view of anything now about IALP, It would probably be better if I sent you a PM, Frank. If you say yes, I promise it will be short. But the MacGuffin idea is a right-wrong issue and that was clearly a shall-we-say silly and ridiculous notion (I don?t use salt and pepper when I eat my words, I eat them raw). This discussion has been probably the most absorbing online experience I?ve ever had. I really enjoyed it. *I'm going to go out for a drink. And it won't be a horse's neck either.* Frank, If you order a horse's neck today it will probably have brandy in it. A horses neck was originally a non-alcoholic drink just as Mildred ordered it but it became an alcoholic drink and that's the most common way it is served today, at least according to Wikipedia (Mildred make me look it up). Curiously, it was commonly served with alcohol by 1950 but the movie gave us the non-alcoholic version. After all this heavy discussion of Dix and Laural, heavy motives, violent and/or enigmatic behavors, what's this mean, what's that mean, it seems refreshing to simply go back and think about sweet ole Mildred. //

*You're not going to see me use words like "silly" and "ridiculous" or tell you don't have an idea about anything. That's not me.* I apologize for that. It was uncalled for. It's not me either...normally. But I goofed. A little overzealous in the language. I'll probably eat those words. And an apology to all as well. I know we don't do that here. One thing I like about here is the level of civility and as we know this isn't always the case with online forums. I have violated the etiquette and I apologize, it won't happen again. And I hope that in the last few days I have been okay. I have found the IALP experience invigorating and I hope have not come across brusque or contentious. I fear I may have. If so, sorry. I would feel really bad if I were to alienate any of you because of anything of this nature. It would be a loss and I would feel it. And Frank, I was going to PM on you on this but I'll just mention briefly that it's particularly galling to me to speak to you like that because of all the folks here you are one that really helped me in the early going of my time here. Back then I used to hop around and post here and there without really knowing anyone and one day I "interrupted" a discussion over in the "torture" thread and you were so welcoming and encouraged me to interrupt any time I pleased and it was through your kindness that I met some of the others here who I know, say, a bit better than many of the others here. That little experience sprung me out a bit and helped open me up and I've never forgotten it. I've wanted to tell you that for some time and thought I would some day and here it is, not under the best circumstances perhaps but I am able to say it nonetheless, thank you. You have already punctured a hole in my scheme things with that screen cap. I am sans DVD now but you have point there, I didn't remember Dix saying that. (sigh) //

I am now only aware that the discussion is apparently over and the thread is moving on, but I have already prepared this and I want to post it?after which I will be happy to be done with it. I've been trying to get the basher story straight and I have this comment. I know I have already posted several times and at some length but you have made me feel my way through this film and I want to weigh in on two points the Laural bashers like so much the Lochner visit as a betrayal and this notion that Laural is "listening to people." I don't buy either of these takes. Laural is not the culprit. If no one reads this, at least it's a part of the record First, the Lochner visit and what follows: Laural's visit to Lochner is a minor point. There is no importance to it at all. There is certainly no betrayal. The visit to the doctor is a MacGuffin. It only serves to move the story along. Here?s why: After Brub?s wife spills the beans Dix turns to Laural and she says that she didn?t want to worry him (or whatever it was, I no longer have the DVD). Dix turns from her and looks a Brub who says that it was just routine. This indicates to Dix that Laural was called to the police station and he understands immediately that she did not go there willingly. There is nothing to indicate that he is angry at Laural at all. He instinctively knows she wouldn?t betray him. Instead he turns to Brub and says, ?So you still think I did it, huh!? He is angry at Brub and the police, not Laural. This is indicated later in the story when he goes to the police station and says to Brug, ?The next time you want information, talk to me.? He did not go to Laural and say, ?Why did you talk to the police?? He is not mad at Laural at all going talking to the police. If he had any thought she had and certainly any idea at all that she was engaged in any act of betrayal, there would have been dire consequences, given Dix?s anger and insecurity. When Laural lights a cigarette for him in the car he looks at her with a sort of sigh that suggests, ?Oh, not now, for Heaven?s sake.? He doesn?t look at her with fury as if he thinks she has betrayed him or even that he mad at her. And he allows her to intervene when he about to bash the kid. Would he respond to her like that if he was furious and thought he had been betrayed. In the car she says, ?Was that so bad that he called you that? (paraphrase) and he says nothing to her. There is an opportunity for him to say something to her about the police visit, but he doesn?t say anything about that. Instead he talks about the screenplay and those lines of poetry. He is not mad at her and the police visit is forgotten. It Is a MacGuffin. Up to that point the movie had reached an equilibrium. They were in love and happy and something had to happen to get the story along. It never comes up again. So much for betrayal. (The notion that he was mad at her and forgave he so quickly is almost silly. That?s not an accurate assumption of a man like Dix.) If we can see, as we did, that she was forced to go to the police station and if even Dix does not make hay of it, then it is not accurate to make any assumptions that Laural betrayed Dix. Dix doesn?t believe it so should we? And this: *Betrayal: To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance.* Honestly, it is preposterous to attribute this to Laural, in fact, ridiculous. Laural is accused of ?listening to people? and thereby somehow betraying him. But she didn?t listen to them. She loved Dix and did not believe what they were saying to her about Dix. Can we give her some credit for that before we impose this sweeping generality that she started ?listening to people,? and then characterizing that as a betrayal of some sort? After she became afraid of Dix she was forced to reflect and from then on she was not listening to them so much as being haunted by them. And even then she resisted mightily. She did not want any part of this talk about Dix being a bad man, a violent man. Her desire to rid herself of these notions is motivated by her undying love for Dix. Does this sound like betrayal? We get the scene with Brub?s wife. Laural wants desperately to be told that there is nothing to worry about. She airs her feelings to her friend in a way she is deathly afraid to do with Dix and she says so? ?How can I marry you if I think you killed Mildred?, etc. (paraphrase) She wants to be laughed and told there is nothing to worry about. But Brub?s wife doesn?t laugh. End of scene. Does this sound like betrayal? Yes, her behaviour is being influenced by these people but these influences are subordinate to importance of the extent that fear has taken conrol of her. She is fear driven and her fear came from Dix. If you want to pin this ?listening to people? charge on her and interpret in some negative light, then you have to ignore the story, and the story is that by this time laural is gripped with fear and that is why she is acting the way she is, not because she is betraying or acting against Dix in any way. Her motivation for all this is her love for Dix. If you can? believe that, the God help you! The marriage proposal scene becomes his worst moment to date, even worse than bashing JoeC, the latter a mere loss of temper. Here we see Dix began to unravel. We see his insecurity, his possessiveness, and his desire for control. He is so self obsessed that he is incapable of seeing Laural correctly. It is hard to believe that he even loves her here, although we know he does, at least the best he knows how. But his insecurity does not allow him to see why she is resisting his rush to the altar. His insecurity does not allow him to ask her ?Why? when she suggests waiting. He is too afraid of losing her. So much so that he forces a yes from her. He is at a point here when he will not take no for an answer, ??a simple yes or no, will do.? She understands only to well that she must say yes because quite simply she is terrified to say no. Can you blame her? Look at the way the scene ends, he is holding her chin with some God awful look on his face, a sort of perverse triumph. He as gotten his way. He doesn?t really love her here, he simply wants her to fill this emptiness that he feels inside and has always felt. And she knows it. She can feel it. She is much more aware than he is of what?s actually happening here. She is the one who is aware. Dix is the one who?s hiding. Hiding within himself. We see her on the phone trying to get a hold of Martha. She is clearly terrified. We get it all in the scene with Mel. She is so upfront. She doesn?t hide anything. It?s Dix that is doing all the hiding. He is hiding himself, from Laural, from everybody, and he always has. After all the clues he might have picked up from Laural he can only say at the bar, ?She is acting strangely lately,? indicating that he can see she is different but not wanting to know why. He does not want to why because he is afraid. He is motivated by his own inward fear, not by anyone else. There is a moment in Laural?s room in the end where something might have happened. Dix is sorry for his behaviour at the restaurant and he sits in the chair like a child and apologizes. Despite all her fear, despite the fact that she is planning to leave him, despite the fact that the letter is on bureau, despite the fact that she has spent a considerable amount of time with a parlysing fear, despite all this she still has enough in her to soften up and approach him and offer him a cigarette. Look at her as she approaches him. She might have forgiven him everything. Does this sound like a woman who has spent the whole movie betraying him? But it instead of responding to this wonderful gesture, he notices the ring isn?t on her finger. He goes off again and even wonders if Laural has somebody in the room. There never has been an issue of Laural seeing someone else so Dix, in his insecurity and possessiveness, begins to make stuff up. The look he has on his face when he almost lights the cigarette suggests madness and we know what happens next. Laural has not betrayed anybody. She loved Dix the whole way and she did it through fear. To say she torpedoes the relationship is actually quite silly. If you maintain that Dix is justified by how he felt and that he was driven by others to do what he did and is therefore blameless and it?s everybody else?s fault, then you are saying that he should not take responsibility for himself. He does not take responsibility but wants to blame everybody else. This is why he acts the way he does. He is doing it to himself. No one is doing it to him. Dix is being virtually in world of his own. He does what he wants and he happy so long as he getting his way. During these good times he can show a tenderness towards Laural and appear to love her very much. But early in the living room scene he grabs Laural?s chin and says, ?You?ll do what I say and nothing but? (paraphrase) so even at these good times he is asserting control. Laural is not worried about this at the time because they are happy and in love. But when things go wrong he blames others. He is insecure and must blame others. He cannot take responsibility. He blames the college boy without realizing that he was driving recklessly. He almost kills Mel when he suggest professional help. He is unable to see the effect that he is having on Laural and by doing so he can?t do anything to keep her from shying away from him. Laural is not doing anything to him so much as he is doing it to himself. And he is responsible for his eventual breakdown---and that?s what it was---a breakdown. In his mind he thinks everybody is against him but he has to take responsibility for that. It?s not anyone else?s fault, and especially not Laural?s. I sincerely don?t believe that Nicholas Ray made a movie here with the intent to show that a man has been taken down by a woman, especially a man who seems so disturbed and as flawed Dix is represented to be. And he had not made a movie about a woman who takes a man down. Laural is not a femme fatale! There are those here who are really fond of noir and should know that. ////

IN A LONELY PLACE ?as having been moved to a corner to afford it the space it needed when it suddenly it opened and a frog jumped out and performed stirringly ?I am wild about Harry,? just like in the cartoon only this time everyone was there to witness this extraordinary event and amazed to see it. They learned never to jump to the conclusion that a jumping singing frog was impossible for nothing is impossible in this cold but wonderful world of reality, nothing impossible until suddenly they saw the seeming impossible, the frog began...

ALL THIS AND HEAVEN TOO ?was one and the same and living in a world of cold hard reality was not so bad so long as you can watch American Idol and not miss it because the president was going to have a press conference---but just then an individual of obviously high standing rose to address the crowd and all eyes became fixed upon him and soon a heightened expectation became almost unbearable as this person, I say, reached into his pocket and pulled out a device the purpose of which was to make everyone look wonderingly at each other before finally realizing that, oh no?

*Lafitte, ya had me until you mentioned Dix & Effie could have been an item.* That was a spoof, Cinemaven. But maybe you know that and are spoofing back, yes? *"Battle-axes" like Martha often get maligned in movies. They're not the pretty petite cutesy size 4's. Not crazy about the term (battle-axe) either.* Sorry, bad term. No harm intended. I give the impression that I like to make up words for people and that?s not good. I meant that Ray might have thought it was visually interesting to have a heavyset (better?) tough talking woman as a confidant (friend, whatever) and to capitalize with those scenes as presented, which were entertaining in themselves besides serving their function in he movie. Cinemaven, I like the manner in which you put your points across. You and I are fundamentally in agreement in defending Laural and I like the way you informally and breezily couch the issues in a recognizably realistic way that is very effective. You say the same or very similar things than I do but with a lot less words than I and with probably a lot more punch. ///

Well, it looks like I won?t be taking part on the discussion of Remember the Night because it turns out I don?t have the movie after all. According to my VHS tape listings it was supposed to be on Tape #156 but alas, it?s not there. Too bad because when I saw it long ago I like it very much. I am not one to wallow in sappy movies but I?m not a cold fish either. Someone once started on thread naming movies that made you cry. I was actually able to come up with a list of sorts. So I?m not hopeless. But I shouldn't use the word sappy because Remember the Night is certainly not that. As has already been mentioned, the idea of warmth is what I remember and yes the sequences at Fred's home. I remember also thinking how dark and strange the visit to Barb's mother was and kind of sad. It set up being able to feel good that she was to have a happy Christmas day after all. This movie reminded me in a way of It Happened One Night where you have the similar situation of a man and a woman on the road and where the man has a certain advantage and the woman is especially vulnerable situation-wise in that in one case you have a woman who is going to jail and in the other on the run from her home and in each case dependent on the guy for a little consideration. Unfortunately I don't remember either movie that well at the moment but there was something inherently romantic about the eventuality that the guy can exercise a little tenderness towards the female and in doing so reveal a kind regard for her and then to slowly see them coming together as the story unfolds. *Miss Goddess*, I too thought the courtroom scene a little odd, especially this sequence when one of the lawyers went on and on. As I recall (and believe me the memory is dim) it was a sort of set piece and was supposed to be funny, I guess. Every once in a while Fred would look at Barbara and vice versa and roll their eyes. That's what I was doing. I didn't think it at all funny and it totally destroyed the pacing and continuity. But thankfully it ended. As happens sometimes, you watch something like that again much later and has a totally different effect, maybe that will happen with me when I can see this again. But at the time I thought it slow and dreary. Anyway I'll enjoy reading what goes on here and unless my memory is sufficiently jarred to recall something useful I will confine myself to lurking and enjoying. I do think this is a fine movie (and I should mention a good fan of both of the principals)

THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM ?kindly desist from his poker-dealing status so that they might break the bonds of being dealt a bad hand of fantasy and hallucination and finding themselves on strange planets with shoes up the nose and be returned instead to cold reality. Back on Earth they rejoiced but were stunned to perceive a marked change on their Beloved Erda, a change that consisted of?

This post grew into more than I intended and so I apologize for its length. So I thank you in advance for your indulgence and I hope you'll stick with it. Some of this I've said before but repeated because of contextual significance.---Laffite Bonjour *Miss Goddess* As an FYI, *Molo* referred to your long post to me and I took the opportunity to respond in conjunction with my responses to Molo. All bold entries are from *Molo* unless otherwise specified: *From Laurel's perspective it was no great sin not to tell Dix ((about Lochner?s visit)). He was really working away on the screenplay too. He is an artist and is probably often "handled" by those around him to facilitate his work. He should be used to that and it could have been a factor in Laurel's thinking, but Dix certainly doesn't want that sort of behavior from her, not from the woman he loves, particularly about something so important.* I agree with you on both counts. I?ve maintained that Laural was not ?keeping secrets? in that nefarious sense that people do when they are really being deceitful and you seem to agree in that you say that not telling him was ?no great sin.? And perhaps Dix doesn?t want that sort of behavior but this wouldn?t occur to Laural if she feels she was acting in good faith. It?s important to remember that this stage of the relationship, they are very much in love and she has yet to actually witness violent behavior from Dix. She has only been fed this information from Lochner and the masseuse and she resisted believing it and therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that she might felt that the visit was no big deal anyway. But I understand those who say she might have told him just as a matter of course but the fact she didn?t does not represent a great deceit in her mind and it?s important for me to realize that fact if I want to treat her fairly. *As the film moves from that point on, I put a lot of my emphasis on Laurel's fear. I lose sight of Dix's perspective. Miss Goddess and Frank are driving that point home to me.* We can actually see that. From Joe College on the film practically shifts to her point of view. It?s her fear that becomes the focus of the story. This corresponds with the thriller aspect, namely, is Laural in any danger staying with Dix. She gets the point of view so that we can experience her fear and wonder whether she should get out of the relationship or not to what extent her life might be in danger. *Molo*, you provide a cap that shows Dix saying to Laural, ?You drive,? when they are in car just after the bashing of JoeC. She does drive, she drives the telling of the story from that point on by having it told from her perspective. *I can't put my head around the idea that Laurel suspects Dix of murder in the case of Mildred, She was his alibi and I think she knows that it doesn't fit with his character. I know she mentions it to Sylvia but I don't think that is her real concern, I think she realizes that Dix can become violent when provoked and also when he is deeply invested in something. She knows he is deeply invested in her and that he may well turn on her if she doesn't play him right. This is all after the beating of "Joe College" of course. Laurel is thinking less about hurting Dix and more about her own preservation. Can we blame her? Well yes, from Dix's perspective we can, but what about from a general perspective.* No, we cannot blame her from a ?general perspective.? Laural is gripped with fear and we have seen why. I cannot ignore that and cannot say that she should place Dix?s perspective above her own just because of the idealized commandment that one should be completely honest with the one that we love. We are given an entire scene to show how difficult it would be to approach Dix with her concerns. Brub?s wife actually asks Laural point blank, ?Why don?t you talk to Dix, tell him how you feel.? Laural responds, ?What can I say to him? I love you but I?m afraid of you? I want to marry you but first convince me that Lochner is wrong and you didn?t kill Mildred Atikinson.? Let?s appreciate how difficult this might be to say to Dix. It?s not reasonable to assume that she should go ahead and say that simply because that being honest with him is the right thing to do. We can?t always just do the right thing. If we could, life would be easy. The fact is that she is too afraid to do that and this scene is telling us that. If there was any indication in this scene that Laural was not telling the truth and was perhaps making excuses for not wanting ?to be honest? with Dix, then I might fault her. But she has nothing up her sleeve. I believe she is telling the truth about her fear and I believe she has good reason to have that fear. If I now fault her for not being more forthcoming to Dix, I am not being fair to her. She is only human and I cannot expect her to obey mindlessly some moral dictum about being honest with the one you love when she has legitimate concerns as to the consequences. I must be fair with her in that regard. *((( Frank and Miss Goddess))) make very good points in Dix's favor. Yet every time I watch I start out in Dix's corner and end up in Laurel's. The beating after the beach scene is the turning point for me. I'm not alone in this view.* Clearly, it the turning point of the film. Laural almost becomes a different person. I have no trouble believing why she changed and I think we have seen why. *Yet Frank and Miss Goddess bring up points that I can't dismiss.* What points, exactly? *_Miss Goddess writes to Laffite_: What responsibility? What did he do? You mean his temper? Laurel doesn't want to leave Dix because he fights, she wants to leave him because she thinks he's killed once before and that means he'll kill again. Since he did not kill Mildred, from his point of view he has nothing to take responsibility for. She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.* *_Molo writes in answer to Miss Goddess:_ This I just don't believe. When she talks to Sylvia and Mel, she brings up the violence first and then mentions that maybe she thinks he did in Mildred. If Laurel really thought he killed Mildred she would have left him and started running. She's a gal that gets out when the going gets rough. Murder is pretty rough. She is still trying to figure it all out. Yes she is "wishy washy" as you said when we argued this out months ago. It's his temper that scares her though, and how far he might go.* *Miss Goddess*: When I referred to ?responsibility? in my post to you I recall speaking generally that his violent temper will have repercussions and that he is responsible for that. I think I was responding to your sentiment that though Dix?s reactions are excessive, they were nevertheless rightly provoked and I responded that though provoked Dix still has to own the consequence of those reactions, some of which were quite costly. I believe, indirectly, at least that when he smashed JoeC he alienated Laural and he never got her back. Now, I admit that these kinds of cause-and-effect variables, if taken to the extreme leads nowhere but given the crucial and pivotal nature of this incident, easily the most egregious and less sympathetic act of the entire story, I would attach a particular significance to it. Because Dix's reaction was so excessive and condemnatory by any standard, he should take responsibility for that, quashing this notion that his actions are the result of real provocation and that how much he over reacts doesn't matter. It matters a great deal. Laural never got over it and Dix exacerbated the situation by trying to reel her back in by control and possessiveness, further driving her away. Laural is much more sympathetic in her plight than Dix is, in my view, and it's just fair to blame her for everything. On the question whether or not Laural thought that Dix killed Mildred, it became a possibility for her after the Joe College incident because she saw his violence and this was a part of her fear. But if she had been absolutely convinced of it I would agree with Molo that she would have taken flight much earlier. I believe she went a long way with Dix and I believe she did not decide to leave Dix until she was forced to agree to marriage. As has been discussed over and over it seems, I believe Laural was not intending to leave Dix until that marriage proposal scene. The idea to leave was born with the JoeC bashing but that alone did not make up her mind to go. Otherwise she wouldn?t have chided Dix about losing his temper over a few words. There was something almost affectionate the way she said, ?Oh was that so bad, calling you that.? If she had already decided to leave him she wouldn?t have come across that way. And later before the proposal there is that scene in the kitchen when she chides him a bit for bending the grapefruit knife, there?s no sense here that she is so fed up at that point that she had decided to leave. Here?s where it happens, in my view. She was with him until the marriage proposal. She was against the marriage not because she was afraid of commitment but because he frightened her away by insisting too soon. She told him he loved her on the couch, he proposed marriage and a trip to Vegas that very evening, she said can we wait, he says he wanted an answer in 10 seconds, alarmed she goes to the kitchen, he follows her and presses her shoulders and says, "Your 10 seconds are up." (Ten seconds, for God's sake!) and asks her again, and now---here?s where it happens---she says, ?Of course, I?ll marry you but?? and he says, ?No, no, no, no...no of course, no buts, no why, a simple yes or no will do, a simple yes or not will do just fine.? What she was going to say, IMO, when he didn?t let her finish was, ?Of course, I?ll marry you but can we just wait a little,? or something like that. But he forced a yes from her and she became highly upset. You can see that on her face. She couldn't abide the marriage, not with her unresolved fears. This is when she decided to leave and called Martha. With all the Laural bashing, why can?t we agree that Dix might have done something wrong here. And yet he is imprisoned with his fears just as Laural is. Their respective plights are oddly similar, not perhaps in form but in content. They are both afraid. I just don't think that Laural should get all the blame nor even the lion's share of it. In the marriage proposal scene there is nothing in her behavior that would indicate anything other that she was fearful, and sympathetically so. She was not trying to deceive him or be evasive. She is perfectly credible and honest in this scene. That carries weight with me. And yet she is the one who won?t make a commitment? She?s the one who won?t talk? She?s the one who is not being honest? I believe Dix brought himself down. I know I sound cross, but I'm not. Honest. And *Miss Goddess,* you wrote above in your post to me, *?She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.?* And *Miss Goddess*, I don't think Laural did go ?behind his back to the police.? At least I didn?t see that way. Remember the scene. Laural is arriving home and is intercepted by Nicolai. ?Lochner wants to speak with you.? Her face hardens. She says, ?I have nothing to say to him.? She does not want to go. Then without transition we see at her at the police station. This doesn?t mean that she went willingly. She was forced to go. If you refuse to cooperate in an investigation they can arrest you. She had no choice and she clearly did not want to be there. And this bears out when we see her at the police station. Her face is taut and she is very nearly uncooperative. She declares she loves Dix and doesn?t believe these stories about his violence. She actually defends him. She is happy to get out of there. All the more reason to give her a break for not telling Dix about the Lochner meeting. She didn?t want to go in the first place. She was forced to go and had no reason to feel defensive about it. She had no reason to feel she did anything wrong. And she must have felt, quite rightly, that telling him would worry him and do more harm than good. Yes, she might have told him anyway but it was a good-faith decision not telling him, in my view, and she should not be faulted. She was not being willfully deceitful and it?s important to make that distinction. If that distinction is not made, then she is not being treated fairly, IMO. You know, I think that this is the case with both them. They each must act in accordance with their own perspective and perhaps cannot be faulted. It's possible that neither is really the blame. That they grew apart was inevitable. There's a beauty of logic to that. Consider that at the end of this story, there is no winner. They are both unhappy. As *Molo* said, *"One of the sad aspects of this film is that Dix and Laurel never have the conversation they need to have."* And as a result neither gets what they want. *One more thing, (((Frank))) and Miss Goddess, don't have much use for Martha. Gloria tells Dix that she is married, has a kid in college, and that she sees her twice a week. The scene between them may be a lot of things, it is definitely an eye opener, there is an almost lascivious nature to it. She does speak strangely to Laurel. What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else??Maybe I'm being naive here. I don't know what kind of history Martha has with Laurel, but it does sound like more than just a client relationship. Still, I'm not ready to be as hard on Martha as you two are.* Molo, I like your thoughtful approach to Martha. You ask, ?What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else?? The fact is that Martha is the only acquaintance imported into the story from Laural?s life. That?s very curious. Economy might have been factor since in a short movie like this there is no time for a complete network of friends. But instead of a masseuse, the movie might have provided a more conventional friend for her, or even more realistically, an agent. I think they went with Martha simply because it was visually more satisfying---and you point this out, *Molo*, when you refer to these sequences with the masseuse as an ?eye-opener? (if that's what you meant)---to have this rough-talking battle ax of a woman mouthing off like that. That was meant to be entertaining. They exploited her beautifully with that remarkably effective camera shot of Laural?s face in the foreground and the massuse muttering in the background during a massage. I see Martha?s insertion in the story as a device. She serves as another person besides Lochner to issue a warning about Dix and she reminds us about Baker having been in Laural?s life. When Martha says, ?You?ll come back to me because you don?t have anybody else,? is a crux, but it might mean, in effect, you might end up doing what I say, meaning she?ll go back to Baker. Possiiblity. *Cinemaven* in a previous round of discussions of this movie suggested the possibility of a lascivious laison but we can?t say. It doesn?t add to the story in fact might be confusing because Laural?s sexual orientation seems firmly established. *When she talks of being back at Baker's beside that nice pool, I didn't get the idea that she was sponging off Laurel. She might be controlling. What does she do really?* My take is that whatever she does is less important that she is there as a confidant. Others have asked, why does Laural keep her around? A better question is why does the masseuse keep Laural around? Laural has left Baker which represented a salary guarantee for the masseuse. Laural is a starlet, perhaps even a B player in the movies and they make nothing. Laural doesn?t even seem to have an agent but we don?t know that for sure. My guess is that the masseuse is hanging around in an effort to convince Laural to go back to Baker and if Laural doesn?t do that and soon, the masseuse is out of here. *She doesn't like Dix. She knows he beat up an old girlfriend and she doesn't want Laurel with a man like that. So? That is perfectly understandable. When Laurel calls her she responds quickly.* Maybe she responds quickly because the call from Laural is tantamount to a return to Baker, and that?s what the masseuse wants. One thing that on one?s picked up on yet is the regard that Dix had for Effie. I believe he was in love with her. There?s a point in the movie where he said something to her that is only barely audible, in fact so much so that you have to turn on closed captioning. It?s when Effie suggests that Dix and Laural get married. He veers---you have to really be attentive to see this---close to Effie and he whispers to her, ?It?s you I want.? He really loved her. Did you see the way he opened the door for her? Also, it?s obvious that as a screenwriter he was enamored with the way she held the cigarette in her mouth. Screenwriters love people like that. He knew she would be great noir. I believe Dix loved her. There is also the way in which Effie wound the electric cord around the vacuum cleaner after she finished vacuuming. There is a certain poetry of motion that brooding romantics like Dix would be attracted to. He should have married her. Effie is the only one who could have rid him of his demons. With Effie in her life the demons would be frightened---no terrified---and go away. This is so obvious but I believe Dix was attached to his demons because he had them to long. This story is really about the tension that existed between Effie and Dix?s demons, a tension that was ripping him apart inside. It?s tragic and it rises Dix to a tragic level. He was a man whose demons were bringing him down and needed a good woman to love him, to calm his torment, to allow him to relax and settle down and find his muse so he could practice his art and sell something besides popcorn. He should have realized that Laural was no good to him any more and married Effie. I don?t doubt for a minute that when Laural stood there and watched Dix walk out, that Effie was waiting for him on the sidewalk. The ending appears to be a sad one but actually it is a very happy one because Effie was out there holding a vacuum cleaner with a cigarette dangling from her mouth and prepared to chase Dix?s demons away for good. And with Laural standing there saying those pretty lines that Dix wrote. Such a beautiful ending. This is an often overlooked aspect of the movie. (the above segment is a spoof) /// Edited by: laffite on Nov 10, 2009 11:09 PM

HAIL THE CONQUORING HERO ?and then turned to behold this personage and observed a ruggedly handsome man with a faint smile, mouth half open, glint in his eye who everyone perceived at once to be Ted Hickman, legendary for traversing the world once a year, like Santa, to prick the bubble of ineffectual pipe dream allowing all, entities included, to meet their miserable fates with equanimity and despair. All were agape and wondering in the first moments but soon felt antsy and were desirous again of their pipe dreams, for which, Mr Hickman was alas no help for having been apprehended for alleged crimes. The entities promised deliverance as everyone boarded a sleek spacecraft and were soon on the planet X-2qw, a magical, new world of?

*Ok... I meandered a bit on all this... thanks for putting up w/ me folks. Hope this all made at least a little sense.* Yes, you did. Thank you for writing all that. I would like to respond to some of what you wrote, hopefully within the next couple of days.