laffite
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Posts posted by laffite
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Well, it looks like I won?t be taking part on the discussion of Remember the Night because it turns out I don?t have the movie after all. According to my VHS tape listings it was supposed to be on Tape #156 but alas, it?s not there. Too bad because when I saw it long ago I like it very much.
I am not one to wallow in sappy movies but I?m not a cold fish either. Someone once started on thread naming movies that made you cry. I was actually able to come up with a list of sorts. So I?m not hopeless. But I shouldn't use the word sappy because Remember the Night is certainly not that. As has already been mentioned, the idea of warmth is what I remember and yes the sequences at Fred's home. I remember also thinking how dark and strange the visit to Barb's mother was and kind of sad. It set up being able to feel good that she was to have a happy Christmas day after all.
This movie reminded me in a way of It Happened One Night where you have the similar situation of a man and a woman on the road and where the man has a certain advantage and the woman is especially vulnerable situation-wise in that in one case you have a woman who is going to jail and in the other on the run from her home and in each case dependent on the guy for a little consideration. Unfortunately I don't remember either movie that well at the moment but there was something inherently romantic about the eventuality that the guy can exercise a little tenderness towards the female and in doing so reveal a kind regard for her and then to slowly see them coming together as the story unfolds.
*Miss Goddess*, I too thought the courtroom scene a little odd, especially this sequence when one of the lawyers went on and on. As I recall (and believe me the memory is dim) it was a sort of set piece and was supposed to be funny, I guess. Every once in a while Fred would look at Barbara and vice versa and roll their eyes. That's what I was doing. I didn't think it at all funny and it totally destroyed the pacing and continuity. But thankfully it ended. As happens sometimes, you watch something like that again much later and has a totally different effect, maybe that will happen with me when I can see this again. But at the time I thought it slow and dreary.
Anyway I'll enjoy reading what goes on here and unless my memory is sufficiently jarred to recall something useful I will confine myself to lurking and enjoying. I do think this is a fine movie (and I should mention a good fan of both of the principals)
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THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM
?kindly desist from his poker-dealing status so that they might break the bonds of being dealt a bad hand of fantasy and hallucination and finding themselves on strange planets with shoes up the nose and be returned instead to cold reality. Back on Earth they rejoiced but were stunned to perceive a marked change on their Beloved Erda, a change that consisted of?
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This post grew into more than I intended and so I apologize for its length. So I thank you in advance for your indulgence and I hope you'll stick with it. Some of this I've said before but repeated because of contextual significance.---Laffite
Bonjour *Miss Goddess*
As an FYI, *Molo* referred to your long post to me and I took the opportunity to respond in conjunction with my responses to Molo.All bold entries are from *Molo* unless otherwise specified:
*From Laurel's perspective it was no great sin not to tell Dix ((about Lochner?s visit)). He was really working away on the screenplay too. He is an artist and is probably often "handled" by those around him to facilitate his work. He should be used to that and it could have been a factor in Laurel's thinking, but Dix certainly doesn't want that sort of behavior from her, not from the woman he loves, particularly about something so important.*
I agree with you on both counts. I?ve maintained that Laural was not ?keeping secrets? in that nefarious sense that people do when they are really being deceitful and you seem to agree in that you say that not telling him was ?no great sin.? And perhaps Dix doesn?t want that sort of behavior but this wouldn?t occur to Laural if she feels she was acting in good faith. It?s important to remember that this stage of the relationship, they are very much in love and she has yet to actually witness violent behavior from Dix. She has only been fed this information from Lochner and the masseuse and she resisted believing it and therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that she might felt that the visit was no big deal anyway. But I understand those who say she might have told him just as a matter of course but the fact she didn?t does not represent a great deceit in her mind and it?s important for me to realize that fact if I want to treat her fairly.
*As the film moves from that point on, I put a lot of my emphasis on Laurel's fear. I lose sight of Dix's perspective. Miss Goddess and Frank are driving that point home to me.*
We can actually see that. From Joe College on the film practically shifts to her point of view. It?s her fear that becomes the focus of the story. This corresponds with the thriller aspect, namely, is Laural in any danger staying with Dix. She gets the point of view so that we can experience her fear and wonder whether she should get out of the relationship or not to what extent her life might be in danger. *Molo*, you provide a cap that shows Dix saying to Laural, ?You drive,? when they are in car just after the bashing of JoeC. She does drive, she drives the telling of the story from that point on by having it told from her perspective.
*I can't put my head around the idea that Laurel suspects Dix of murder in the case of Mildred, She was his alibi and I think she knows that it doesn't fit with his character. I know she mentions it to Sylvia but I don't think that is her real concern, I think she realizes that Dix can become violent when provoked and also when he is deeply invested in something. She knows he is deeply invested in her and that he may well turn on her if she doesn't play him right. This is all after the beating of "Joe College" of course. Laurel is thinking less about hurting Dix and more about her own preservation. Can we blame her? Well yes, from Dix's perspective we can, but what about from a general perspective.*
No, we cannot blame her from a ?general perspective.? Laural is gripped with fear and we have seen why. I cannot ignore that and cannot say that she should place Dix?s perspective above her own just because of the idealized commandment that one should be completely honest with the one that we love. We are given an entire scene to show how difficult it would be to approach Dix with her concerns. Brub?s wife actually asks Laural point blank, ?Why don?t you talk to Dix, tell him how you feel.? Laural responds, ?What can I say to him? I love you but I?m afraid of you? I want to marry you but first convince me that Lochner is wrong and you didn?t kill Mildred Atikinson.? Let?s appreciate how difficult this might be to say to Dix. It?s not reasonable to assume that she should go ahead and say that simply because that being honest with him is the right thing to do. We can?t always just do the right thing. If we could, life would be easy. The fact is that she is too afraid to do that and this scene is telling us that. If there was any indication in this scene that Laural was not telling the truth and was perhaps making excuses for not wanting ?to be honest? with Dix, then I might fault her. But she has nothing up her sleeve. I believe she is telling the truth about her fear and I believe she has good reason to have that fear. If I now fault her for not being more forthcoming to Dix, I am not being fair to her. She is only human and I cannot expect her to obey mindlessly some moral dictum about being honest with the one you love when she has legitimate concerns as to the consequences. I must be fair with her in that regard.
*((( Frank and Miss Goddess))) make very good points in Dix's favor. Yet every time I watch I start out in Dix's corner and end up in Laurel's. The beating after the beach scene is the turning point for me. I'm not alone in this view.*
Clearly, it the turning point of the film. Laural almost becomes a different person. I have no trouble believing why she changed and I think we have seen why.
*Yet Frank and Miss Goddess bring up points that I can't dismiss.*
What points, exactly?
*_Miss Goddess writes to Laffite_: What responsibility? What did he do? You mean his temper? Laurel doesn't want to leave Dix because he fights, she wants to leave him because she thinks he's killed once before and that means he'll kill again. Since he did not kill Mildred, from his point of view he has nothing to take responsibility for. She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.*
*_Molo writes in answer to Miss Goddess:_ This I just don't believe. When she talks to Sylvia and Mel, she brings up the violence first and then mentions that maybe she thinks he did in Mildred. If Laurel really thought he killed Mildred she would have left him and started running. She's a gal that gets out when the going gets rough. Murder is pretty rough. She is still trying to figure it all out. Yes she is "wishy washy" as you said when we argued this out months ago. It's his temper that scares her though, and how far he might go.*
*Miss Goddess*: When I referred to ?responsibility? in my post to you I recall speaking generally that his violent temper will have repercussions and that he is responsible for that. I think I was responding to your sentiment that though Dix?s reactions are excessive, they were nevertheless rightly provoked and I responded that though provoked Dix still has to own the consequence of those reactions, some of which were quite costly. I believe, indirectly, at least that when he smashed JoeC he alienated Laural and he never got her back. Now, I admit that these kinds of cause-and-effect variables, if taken to the extreme leads nowhere but given the crucial and pivotal nature of this incident, easily the most egregious and less sympathetic act of the entire story, I would attach a particular significance to it. Because Dix's reaction was so excessive and condemnatory by any standard, he should take responsibility for that, quashing this notion that his actions are the result of real provocation and that how much he over reacts doesn't matter. It matters a great deal. Laural never got over it and Dix exacerbated the situation by trying to reel her back in by control and possessiveness, further driving her away. Laural is much more sympathetic in her plight than Dix is, in my view, and it's just fair to blame her for everything.
On the question whether or not Laural thought that Dix killed Mildred, it became a possibility for her after the Joe College incident because she saw his violence and this was a part of her fear. But if she had been absolutely convinced of it I would agree with Molo that she would have taken flight much earlier. I believe she went a long way with Dix and I believe she did not decide to leave Dix until she was forced to agree to marriage.
As has been discussed over and over it seems, I believe Laural was not intending to leave Dix until that marriage proposal scene. The idea to leave was born with the JoeC bashing but that alone did not make up her mind to go. Otherwise she wouldn?t have chided Dix about losing his temper over a few words. There was something almost affectionate the way she said, ?Oh was that so bad, calling you that.? If she had already decided to leave him she wouldn?t have come across that way. And later before the proposal there is that scene in the kitchen when she chides him a bit for bending the grapefruit knife, there?s no sense here that she is so fed up at that point that she had decided to leave.
Here?s where it happens, in my view. She was with him until the marriage proposal. She was against the marriage not because she was afraid of commitment but because he frightened her away by insisting too soon. She told him he loved her on the couch, he proposed marriage and a trip to Vegas that very evening, she said can we wait, he says he wanted an answer in 10 seconds, alarmed she goes to the kitchen, he follows her and presses her shoulders and says, "Your 10 seconds are up." (Ten seconds, for God's sake!) and asks her again, and now---here?s where it happens---she says, ?Of course, I?ll marry you but?? and he says, ?No, no, no, no...no of course, no buts, no why, a simple yes or no will do, a simple yes or not will do just fine.? What she was going to say, IMO, when he didn?t let her finish was, ?Of course, I?ll marry you but can we just wait a little,? or something like that. But he forced a yes from her and she became highly upset. You can see that on her face. She couldn't abide the marriage, not with her unresolved fears. This is when she decided to leave and called Martha.
With all the Laural bashing, why can?t we agree that Dix might have done something wrong here. And yet he is imprisoned with his fears just as Laural is. Their respective plights are oddly similar, not perhaps in form but in content. They are both afraid. I just don't think that Laural should get all the blame nor even the lion's share of it. In the marriage proposal scene there is nothing in her behavior that would indicate anything other that she was fearful, and sympathetically so. She was not trying to deceive him or be evasive. She is perfectly credible and honest in this scene. That carries weight with me. And yet she is the one who won?t make a commitment? She?s the one who won?t talk? She?s the one who is not being honest? I believe Dix brought himself down.
I know I sound cross, but I'm not. Honest. And *Miss Goddess,* you wrote above in your post to me,
*?She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.?*
And *Miss Goddess*, I don't think Laural did go ?behind his back to the police.? At least I didn?t see that way. Remember the scene. Laural is arriving home and is intercepted by Nicolai. ?Lochner wants to speak with you.? Her face hardens. She says, ?I have nothing to say to him.? She does not want to go. Then without transition we see at her at the police station. This doesn?t mean that she went willingly. She was forced to go. If you refuse to cooperate in an investigation they can arrest you. She had no choice and she clearly did not want to be there. And this bears out when we see her at the police station. Her face is taut and she is very nearly uncooperative. She declares she loves Dix and doesn?t believe these stories about his violence. She actually defends him. She is happy to get out of there.
All the more reason to give her a break for not telling Dix about the Lochner meeting. She didn?t want to go in the first place. She was forced to go and had no reason to feel defensive about it. She had no reason to feel she did anything wrong. And she must have felt, quite rightly, that telling him would worry him and do more harm than good. Yes, she might have told him anyway but it was a good-faith decision not telling him, in my view, and she should not be faulted. She was not being willfully deceitful and it?s important to make that distinction. If that distinction is not made, then she is not being treated fairly, IMO.
You know, I think that this is the case with both them. They each must act in accordance with their own perspective and perhaps cannot be faulted. It's possible that neither is really the blame. That they grew apart was inevitable. There's a beauty of logic to that. Consider that at the end of this story, there is no winner. They are both unhappy. As *Molo* said, *"One of the sad aspects of this film is that Dix and Laurel never have the conversation they need to have."* And as a result neither gets what they want.
*One more thing, (((Frank))) and Miss Goddess, don't have much use for Martha. Gloria tells Dix that she is married, has a kid in college, and that she sees her twice a week. The scene between them may be a lot of things, it is definitely an eye opener, there is an almost lascivious nature to it. She does speak strangely to Laurel. What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else??Maybe I'm being naive here. I don't know what kind of history Martha has with Laurel, but it does sound like more than just a client relationship. Still, I'm not ready to be as hard on Martha as you two are.*
Molo, I like your thoughtful approach to Martha. You ask, ?What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else?? The fact is that Martha is the only acquaintance imported into the story from Laural?s life. That?s very curious. Economy might have been factor since in a short movie like this there is no time for a complete network of friends. But instead of a masseuse, the movie might have provided a more conventional friend for her, or even more realistically, an agent. I think they went with Martha simply because it was visually more satisfying---and you point this out, *Molo*, when you refer to these sequences with the masseuse as an ?eye-opener? (if that's what you meant)---to have this rough-talking battle ax of a woman mouthing off like that. That was meant to be entertaining. They exploited her beautifully with that remarkably effective camera shot of Laural?s face in the foreground and the massuse muttering in the background during a massage. I see Martha?s insertion in the story as a device. She serves as another person besides Lochner to issue a warning about Dix and she reminds us about Baker having been in Laural?s life. When Martha says, ?You?ll come back to me because you don?t have anybody else,? is a crux, but it might mean, in effect, you might end up doing what I say, meaning she?ll go back to Baker. Possiiblity. *Cinemaven* in a previous round of discussions of this movie suggested the possibility of a lascivious laison but we can?t say. It doesn?t add to the story in fact might be confusing because Laural?s sexual orientation seems firmly established.
*When she talks of being back at Baker's beside that nice pool, I didn't get the idea that she was sponging off Laurel. She might be controlling. What does she do really?*
My take is that whatever she does is less important that she is there as a confidant. Others have asked, why does Laural keep her around? A better question is why does the masseuse keep Laural around? Laural has left Baker which represented a salary guarantee for the masseuse. Laural is a starlet, perhaps even a B player in the movies and they make nothing. Laural doesn?t even seem to have an agent but we don?t know that for sure. My guess is that the masseuse is hanging around in an effort to convince Laural to go back to Baker and if Laural doesn?t do that and soon, the masseuse is out of here.
*She doesn't like Dix. She knows he beat up an old girlfriend and she doesn't want Laurel with a man like that. So? That is perfectly understandable. When Laurel calls her she responds quickly.*
Maybe she responds quickly because the call from Laural is tantamount to a return to Baker, and that?s what the masseuse wants.
One thing that on one?s picked up on yet is the regard that Dix had for Effie. I believe he was in love with her. There?s a point in the movie where he said something to her that is only barely audible, in fact so much so that you have to turn on closed captioning. It?s when Effie suggests that Dix and Laural get married. He veers---you have to really be attentive to see this---close to Effie and he whispers to her, ?It?s you I want.? He really loved her. Did you see the way he opened the door for her? Also, it?s obvious that as a screenwriter he was enamored with the way she held the cigarette in her mouth. Screenwriters love people like that. He knew she would be great noir. I believe Dix loved her. There is also the way in which Effie wound the electric cord around the vacuum cleaner after she finished vacuuming. There is a certain poetry of motion that brooding romantics like Dix would be attracted to. He should have married her. Effie is the only one who could have rid him of his demons. With Effie in her life the demons would be frightened---no terrified---and go away. This is so obvious but I believe Dix was attached to his demons because he had them to long. This story is really about the tension that existed between Effie and Dix?s demons, a tension that was ripping him apart inside. It?s tragic and it rises Dix to a tragic level. He was a man whose demons were bringing him down and needed a good woman to love him, to calm his torment, to allow him to relax and settle down and find his muse so he could practice his art and sell something besides popcorn. He should have realized that Laural was no good to him any more and married Effie. I don?t doubt for a minute that when Laural stood there and watched Dix walk out, that Effie was waiting for him on the sidewalk. The ending appears to be a sad one but actually it is a very happy one because Effie was out there holding a vacuum cleaner with a cigarette dangling from her mouth and prepared to chase Dix?s demons away for good. And with Laural standing there saying those pretty lines that Dix wrote. Such a beautiful ending. This is an often overlooked aspect of the movie.
(the above segment is a spoof)
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Edited by: laffite on Nov 10, 2009 11:09 PM
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HAIL THE CONQUORING HERO
?and then turned to behold this personage and observed a ruggedly handsome man with a faint smile, mouth half open, glint in his eye who everyone perceived at once to be Ted Hickman, legendary for traversing the world once a year, like Santa, to prick the bubble of ineffectual pipe dream allowing all, entities included, to meet their miserable fates with equanimity and despair. All were agape and wondering in the first moments but soon felt antsy and were desirous again of their pipe dreams, for which, Mr Hickman was alas no help for having been apprehended for alleged crimes. The entities promised deliverance as everyone boarded a sleek spacecraft and were soon on the planet X-2qw, a magical, new world of?
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*Ok... I meandered a bit on all this... thanks for putting up w/ me folks. Hope this all made at least a little sense.*
Yes, you did. Thank you for writing all that. I would like to respond to some of what you wrote, hopefully within the next couple of days.
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>Whew! I'm worn out and am laying down my sword.
Whew is right! A fine and impressive post! We disagree to be sure but there are times when we are quite close. There are some misunderstandings though and I will certainly take my share of the blame, if not more. Sometimes we agree but the our time lines are slightly off that muddies the waters. Or there are instances where, in my view, we are not quite talking about the same thing. These confusions are probably inevitable in discussions like this, especially these long posts where we are continually jumping from scene to scene.
In Molo's last post, he cited this and it caught my attention so let me comment on just this one point.
*Laffite: The fact is though that she was too fearful. And her fear is justified because she witnessed Dix almost kill a man and she has been warned about him.*
*Miss Goddess: But let us go back to why she is fearful. You're saying right here she was fearful before Joe College and that this incident justified her fears. Why was she afraid before? Because other people have planted doubt in her mind and she didn't either tell them to go fly a kite or come to Dix and say, "Can you believe those cops? They dragged me down there again and grilled me about you!" Why can't she say that to him?*
That's not what I'm saying there. I never said she was fearful before Joe College. I probably should have said above "..._had_ been warned about him." The Lochner interview and the masseuse scenes both occurred before the JoeCollege scene. She was not fearful of Dix at those times and in both cases she did tell them to "go fly a kite." She said to Lochner, "I don't believe you...he has changed," when he told her of Dix's violent tendencies. And she reacted strongly against the masseuse's warnings about Dix's violence and ends up dismissing her from the session. She loved Dix and was not fearful of him at those time and did not believe the warnings. She loved Dix at the time of those warnings and wanted to believe the best in him. But after seeing Dix's violence in the Joe College incident, these warnings had new meaning. She thought that maybe those warnings were true after all.
Because she loved him and was on his side there is no reason to believe she was being deceitful in not telling him. She didn't tell him because she thought it would do more harm that good. People do that in life, even and perhaps especially with ones we love. She was not "keeping secrets" in the way that phrase is usually used, that is, to connote deceit. I think this is evident at the beach scene. If I look at how Gloria is portraying Laural in that scene, I see innocence. She is not defensive. After Dix storms away, Laural says, "Oh, I should have told him, not in a way as in Oh that's what I get for trying to deceive him, but in a way as in Oh darn, maybe I should have told him in an everyday sort of way, almost as if it was an afterthought. The way she comes across on the screen is very important to me and I want to be careful not to attribute motives to her that I don't see to be there. It can always be insisted that she should have told him but I consider that to be idle speculation and not a reasonable inference of what is actually taking place on the screen. I want to especially be careful not to moralize too much on what she should do and instead focus on what she does do and in the doing shows us who she is.
But enough, the swords are at rest
. I won't do a line-by-line response to that fine post you did, Miss Goddess, I will probably write a few short paragraphs some time later on these issues. I watched the movie a couple of nights ago and it clarified a few thing for me. I would now disavow some of my earlier musings and I have you, in part, to thank for this. The depth of your analyses can be quite dizzying and your cogent arguments are formidable. Now if I could just get you and Frank to like Laural a little more .I love this movie and I hope the current discussion continues for a while. And when it fades out I hope it revives from time to time. God knows there's a lot to talk about. And of course it's always nice having Gloria near the top of the thread list.
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TERROR AT **** CASTLE
EXPERIMENT IN TERROR or FEAR STRIKES OUT
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ATTACK
?from another group of entities that appeared to be menacing but came only to inform the shopping party that the Nordstrom Rack was closed on Tuesdays. One of the entities had a radio and over the news came word that Homeland Security had determined that Santa Claus and his legends were okay after all and they could go back to the North Pole but that they would have to wait till after Christmas. This whole story was actually a movie and a patron watching in a theater in Duluth got up to get some popcorn but stepped on somebody?s toe who yelled?
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*I actually agree with Larry that Laurel's desire to bolt takes strongest root during the Joe College incident, which is earlier*
It might have taken root but I wouldn't say that she knew that early that it would come to that. No, she decided to bolt when he push for the marriage and the trip to Vegas. It was the marriage that she couldn't abide. When she asked him to consider not rushing into it she was trying to buy time and perhaps get over her fears. When he broached he subject of marriage she said she loved him and meant it I believe and was willing to stay with him if he would accede to waiting, but he didn't and she decided then she had to leave IMO. She as much as said that to Mel in that scene that followed. She told him she could not go through with it. This was just prior to the restaurant scene.
laffite: Yes, he thinks his world is falling apart and everyone is against him. I understand that. But that's his problem and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So he comes across mental.
*"His problem"? But he didn't create that problem, is all I'm saying.*
But that's important. We don't always create our problems but if we have the problem we have to deal with it. I feel he should take responsibility for that instead of playing the victim and acting out because by doing so, there are consequences.
*you don't get engaged to someone only to have to solve things separately and apart from one another. Laurel owed Dix loyalty if she was to marry him, and honesty if she wanted to break up with him.*
Let's remember please that she agreed to marry him out of fear. He extracted that from her and therefore I don't think it's fair to say that she "owed" him at all. One might say he owed her the courtesy of a little conversation about the marriage in the first place before rushing her to Vegas. So it works both ways. I think you say that it takes two.
*Laurel isn't explaining her fears.*
Laural did not just have fears, she was terrified. Perhaps for her life. If you are that afraid it's difficult ot air them. Remember the scene with Brub's wife, who urges her to talk to Dix. Laural says to her "What can I say to him. I love you but I?m afraid of you. I want to marry you but first convince me you didn?t kill Mildred Atkinson.? This at least she shows she had good faith. She _wanted_ to tell him. Where does Dix do anything comparable. The fact is though that she was too fearful. And her fear is justified because she witnessed Dix almost kill a man and she has been warned about him. But still, we have to decide how important this kind of fear is and whether we can cut her some slack with regard to her leaving Dix. It's difficult because we can't know in reality how afraid she is and even if we did it would be subjective for each person. For me, I think her fear is real, she's not using it as an excuse, and that she was doing what she felt she had to do to survive. The fact that Dix ended up practically strangling her and nearly killing her vindicates her decision.
And if we are going impose imperatives on Laural, then in all fairness we should do the same with Dix. If he feels that his world is crumbling around him, well, there are ways to deal with that. But maybe he is just as helpless with his fears as Laural is with hers. I think that's true. That's why they couldn't make it, IMO.
*And here, since you have been good enough to point out where I have misunderstood what you've written, I will, with the best intentions, remind you that I have never at any point condoned Dix's violence or intimated such. I've simply focused on the causes, not the reactions themselves.*
But that's my point, isn't it. I'm saying the reactions _are_ important and they should be focused on. If you can't control violent reactions, then how can you react appropriately and responsibility, the same way that you would have Laural do.
*His history of combativeness contained the seeds of destruction, but what makes this movie a tragedy and not a thriller, is that his salvation (Laurel) is taken from him. It's ironic and doubly painful. A love like his for Laurel could have saved him, I believe, and yet in losing her he is perhaps reaping in some part for his violent ways. I just think the price he's paying is far higher than his crimes.*
But is it possible that Laural was not "taken" from, per se, but that he might have been responsible too. The JoeCollege incident is where he actually lost her, that's when she began to doubt him and fear him. That's what his reactions got him. If he thought (and whoever among us here agrees) that he was justified in punching Joe College over a paint job, well, he paid a dear price for it, the woman who might have saved him. And after that she tried to talk about it (on the couch). He pushed marriage on her and effectively pushed her right out of his life.
*I just think the price he's paying is far higher than his crimes.*
Life is not fair...in real life...and I guess in the movies too.
*Mel did suspect him from the start, so Dix teased him about it. Later on it looks like Mel does believe Laurel will be in danger if she stays with Dix. Nicolai is not convinced either way, but I think he struggles with believing Dix is a killer because he knew Dix in the service and saw nothing untoward in his behavior then. Nicolai's wife, on meeting Dix only once, thinks he's crazy. Nicolai is forced by his duties to regard Dix as a suspect, technically at least.*
*So, in conclusion, yes, I believe everyone suspects Dix, everyone close to him. Charlie Waterman is oblivious to what is going on...but I think if he were aware of things, he would probably be the one person who wouldn't think for an instant Dix was a murderer. That is only a guess, of course.*
But why he can't face the fact and realize that he was the last person to see Mildred and he is a logical suspect ot begin with. That's basic reality. Mel was on his side. The scenes you are referring with him occurred early in the movie. Even after Dix blamed Nicolai on the beach, he approached him later and more or less forgave him by saying "The next time you want information, just ask me," (instead of interviewing Laural) and so he and Nicolai did not accuse him after that. And it wasn't that he was continually being besieged during the course of the move with in-your-face accusation from everybody. Laural couldn't accuse him because she was too afraid to talk about it. And even if he was being continually accused by everyone (which he wasn't) he should be expected to deal with fears concerning that in the same way Laural should be deal with hers. The owe each other.
Cheers, MissGoddess
Thank you
laffite
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*Hi Molo*
*I never really thought Dix had anything to do with Mildred's death. We have their scenes together and we don't know as much about Dix at this point, but the more we learn, the less it makes any sense. It simply is not his M.O. He certainly isn't provoked by her and he had nothing invested in their relationship.*
I agree with you...and yet presumably this was supposed in the back of our minds the whole way. What is more important to the story though is that it was in the back of Laural's mind. That is a functional plot point. Laural became fearful with the Joe College incident but there were other factors, the visit to Dr Lochner who instilled fear of Dix, the scene with with the masseuse who did the same, and the scene with Brub's wife where Laural could not get assurances that she was overly concerned about Dix. The scenes have all the more effect on Laural because she suspects that Dix might have indeed killed Mildred.
*Excuse me for getting too literal here but the only time the film title is referred to is in the scene where Dix is describing how he thinks Mildred was murdered and he's using Brub and Sylvia to reenact it.*
You are definitely excused
I'm glad you mentioned that.*The piano bar scene may have been the height of their happiness*
I agree. The were basking in each others presence. That scene was almost naturalistic. They didn't look like actors at all. They looked like real people in a real bar some place. I especially like Gloria here, that radiant smile and the way she leans over so that he can whisper something in her ear, holding her cigarettes the way they do. As you point out, we sense here that everything is right with them.
*How justified is Dix's reaction? It's obvious that of the four of them, he's been left out. They didn't want him to know. That's not good but does it really warrant such a strong reaction? Does Dix not know he's still a suspect? Why does he accuse Laurel of lying when she said she just didn't want to upset him? He kind of proves her point. As she goes after Dix, Laurel confesses that she should of told him in the first place. She wants to talk. He doesn't.*
The last thing Dix does before getting in the car is turn to Brub and say. "Still checking on me, still trying to pin a murder on me." Yes, he knows he's a suspect but at this moment he feels betrayed by Brub...maybe. Brub is supposed to be his friend. *Miss Goddess* makes the point that eventually Dix becomes to feel people are turning against him and that this helps leads to his downfall. I actually contradicted *Miss Goddess* on this but watching the movie again last night am more receptive to that idea now.
The idea of betrayal by talking to Lochner probably applies to Laural as well. But I thought Laural was honest in the beach scene. It was evident that she did not want to pay the visit to Lochner in the first place and I believe it was plausible that she would not want to tell Dix about it. I don't believe her not telling constitutes deception on her part, at least willful, malicious deception. She withheld this information from him the way we do sometimes do, that it might cause more harm than good. It's important to note that she was not in that protracted fear cycle that was soon to begin, so fear was not a motivation for not telling. Notice how sincere natural she is when she says, "Well, I should have told him."
And I agree, this is an instance where she wanted to talk...but he was off and running. This is before---only just---that her cycle of fear takes over---but later even when fearful she makes overtures for talking and he doesn't respond. After watching the movie again last night, I realize though that he doesn't respond because he has fears of his own. They both have fears and it's driving them apart.
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*Bonjour, Super Charger -- I hope you win this week.
*Franklin, I did not pick up on this (what's new!) at the time...but now I see that the Chargers are playing the Giants, touching upon the plight of certain Cowboys. My heart is of course with the Chargers but if I had to decide with my pocketbook straight up I would have to go with the Giants. They've lost three in a row and will come out snortin'. This is like a playoff game for them. The Chargers have not proven themselves this year and i dont think they are ready IMO.
Meanwhile I will be at work Sunday night with my digital TV watching the same game you will. What a matchup! The Cowboys are on a roll and I like their chances. When Romo doesn't make mistakes the Cowboys win...and he hasn't made any mistakes lately. Looking forward to that one. Good Luck!
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THE THING FROM ANOTHER WORLD
?was suddenly a factor in our story. The pilot having fallen asleep after having mistakenly ingested a downer instead of an upper was suddenly awakened by a hellacious entity heretofore unknown to man. He soon realized that they had somehow reached Antarctica which was now under the control of alien beings that had been discovered in a spaceship under the ice. Afraid of losing his job for not having jettisoned his human cargo, the pilot found another job with a being with sixteen legs who needed someone to shine his shoes. Meanwhile Santa and the elves were acclimating to their new home by making friends with the "natives" who were cumbersome creatures who found it difficult to walk for having so many legs. This made the elves laugh but who stopped laughing when one of them...
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*MILDRED ATKINSON IS A HUMAN MacGUFFIN!!*
I'm not an expert on MacGuffins but my impression is that though they are a seeming significance at the outset, they become of no consequence at all as the story moves along. But Mildred is always there and has a lingering though muted background presence. Supposedly we are wondering whether Dix actually killed her or not and she therefore has a certain bearing on the plot. But if she is by definition a MacGuffin anyway, I will stand corrected.
*It's so hard to be a writer. You've got to create dramatic tensions between characters that hopefully make sense and are humanly psychologically sound and believable...WHILE keeping the plot moving forward.*
I wonder if they were unsure which should take precedence, character or plot. Dix has to be the way he is because the plot requires that he be capable of murder (Will he murder Laural?). But that gets in the way of character development in other and perhaps more interesting directions. Most of you feel those nuances are there and I can agree but they are undermined by Dix's disposition. The movie can't make up it's mind. Am I a suspense thriller or am I a soap opera? It's a little of both and I'm being a little facetious by using those terms. It's obviously contains a little of each and something much better besides, I'm sure. But on some level, the two tendencies clash and maybe to the detriment of the movie, IMO.
*I'm almoth thuffithently sloshed to take on owlllllllllllll comers. I'm on my thecond Bacardi.*
You are too funny
I have cases of Jamaican rum form my last plundering expeditions. I'll send you a case...I don't know though, the Bacardi seems to be doing just fine
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Bonjour again Miss Goddess
(I didn' see this paragraph so may I answer, I just saw it because Cinemaven cited it.)
*I actually feel for both of them in this sequence. I understand her nervousness, but she doesn't seem to even consider for one second laying her cards on the table and telling him what's going on.This is the time to do it and do it without that almost hysterical fear. I think he deserves that much. Any fiance deserves that*
I thought she did when she made that remark to him about rushing into marriage. That was her first card on the table and she wanted to talk. She was afraid and perhaps wanted to back out but she had just told him that she loved him and said something that indicated that she was willing to talk. It doesn't seem fair to me that she should be characterized as "doesn't seem to even consider for one second laying her cards on the table." I think she did and should be given credit for that.
*She's about to run out with no explanation beyond a letter.*
But that comes later, Miss Goddess. That comes at the end of the movie just before he strangles her. The situation is worse by now. By this time her fear is at an even higher pitch and for good reason. By this time we've had the restaurant scene, a scene where Dix's behavior was abominable. She doesn't want to talk on the phone. Bring the Phone! And then he grabs the phone and talks into it. Where is the "legitimate provocation" for that, BTW. It's not is his call and she's sitting right there. Is this is how you treat a person that you love when you feel she might is slipping away? Yes, he thinks his world is falling apart and everyone is against him. I understand that. But that's his problem and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So he comes across mental.
Later upstairs he wants to know who's in the room. "Who's in there?" he wants to know. This sort of suspicious obsessiveness might be something that a normal person would feel on occasion but Dix comes across as sort of crazed. I don't see Dix as a normal man with normal reactions and then excuse him if he overacts. I have a hard time seeing, "...but they were legitimate provocations, it's just the degree of his reaction is extreme and unacceptable." I think the level of reaction is pretty important. For instance, it would be highly disturbing for anyone to pick the telephone and hear that your fiance is booking a flight to run out on you. But if your reaction is to strangle her, then I would suggest that there might be something mental about that. I understand you feel that's just an over reaction and that Dix is just a normal person with normal reactions, but if you can't deal the problem and then act like a maniac then maybe there is something mental going on.
On the other hand, Laural is much closer to normal provocations and normal reactions. I wouldn't label Laural as simply a person with "hysterical fear" when in fact that fear has shown to be justified and I wouldn't blame her for "running out" if she has a legitimate fear that she might be killed. Under the circumstances, I think it was quite decent of her to leave the letter.
*his girl is backing out, everyone's suspecting him of murder and he can't trust anybody. I don't think it's strictly correct to say this is paranoia on his part because all these things are in fact happening to him,*
Does "everyone" suspect him of murder and is it true that he can't trust "anybody?" He can trust his agent. Nicolai was a cop but he seemed a friend. He even bought the story about Dix's weird take on the murder. There was a certain logic that he might be considered a suspect by the police since he was the last person to see Mildred. So he might have accepted that as simple reality. But he couldn't...and worse, the one person who loved him and might have helped him---Laural---was not considered because she was thought to be against him. But she wasn't. it was only in his mind. Maybe he is paranoid after all.
Our respective takes on all this is different, Miss Goddess, but given the premise you take, I feel you are very persuasive.
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I
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Bonjour Miss Goddess
*Now I see that scene quite differently. What I see and feel is what I think Dix instantly senses: something was wrong with Laurel, something had changed in Laurel's behavior toward him. You can see the actual worry enter his face...his words are a cover for a mounting fear that I can palpably feel...he's confused because he's sensing she's pulling back and he doesn't know yet why, but I think he suspects.*
That's not bad, cinematically, at least. I can see how it can be read that way. But it doesn't quite come across that way to me.
*I think a fiance (especially one who presumably has been intimate with his girl already) can put his hands on her shoulders with impunity.*
Of course. I was referring to _how_ he did it. It seemed a threatening, vice-like grip with the intent to intimidate.
*But I think he is normal and very approachable until someone pulls a switch on him. I would approach him. Mel approaches him, even his ex-girlfriend does.*
Miss Goddess, I needed to check myself. Here?s what I wrote:
?Dix is ?intelligent? and certainly not ?a one-note bore?, but he, _at least at this point,_ is not normal. He is not approachable. He was normal and quite charming earlier on when he was writing his screenplay with Laural by his side and that wonderful scene a the bar where they were so one with each other.?
Please note emphasis. I was referring to a specific time and specifically to Laural, though perhaps not clearly.
*Are you 100% sure "from JoeCollege on he changed"?*
No.
Good catch! Laural?s fear, yes.(?but he snowballed a little at the end)
*However, things did happen to him and events began to pile up and yes, he did flip over them...but they were legitimate provocations, it's just the degree of his reaction is extreme and unacceptable. However this is still not being a mental case, this is having no boundaries with his violent impulses*
I'm an idiot for throwing around these medical terms. I have learned something. Don't do it.
And you are right to call me on them. I haven?t seen The Two Miss Carrolls but I can tell you that I do not believe Dix is ?insane.? And that?s at least one word I haven?t used so far. But I have used a few others and probably carelessly so. Dix?s behaviour conjures up certain words that are used in general conversation (Laural calls Dix a maniac twice, for instance) and I have used them in the same sense, or at least intended to. Maybe we can we agree that he has a severe behavioral problem? I don?t know what?s wrong with Dix in a clinical sense, though I think something is. Your last thought, ?However this is still not being a mental case, this is having no boundaries with his violent impulses,? is interesting. I guess it depends on definitions.*Nor would director Nicholas Ray call In a Lonely Place a "very personal film" to him if it were just a thriller.*
It is not a thriller, Miss Goddess, I agree. Please allow me to quote myself. What I wrote was ??but the movie _at this point_ has become more of a thriller than anything else,? referring only to the latter part of the movie and whether Dix would kill Laural in the end. Again emphasis.
*I think maybe seeing Dix simply as a maniac might prompt one to read too much into his every gesture, and this is may be what the director is playing with. Suddenly, everything Dix says and does is questionable, and I can't help but feel terrible for the guy. I suspect Ray could be playing with the audience, I think, as opposed to just spoon feeding them stock thriller dramatics. He knows we're all probably going to be second guessing him if not downright fearing him but to me, if Dix has been misrepresented the phone call at the end packs a HUGE wallop....it's not as deeply thoughtful an impact if he just happened not be guilty of that particular incident, but we leave assuming he's still a mental case. I think, and again this is all just how I see this movie, Dix is meant to be seen at the finale as the most tragic figure, principally for losing Laurel, but also for a kind of betrayal to him in general by all who were close to him.*
That?s a nice paragraph. Food for thought.
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Bonjour Goddess
Thanks for the info on the picture.
I think I'm becoming fascinated with Vivien. I love her mouth and smile. I recently watched Anna Karenina (twice!) and there is a scene at the race track. Much to the consternation of an on looking Karenin she watches Vronsky racing. She has the binoculars to her eyes so we can't see them and she shows her reactions to what is going on with all kinds of little different things she does with her mouth. It's such a cliche anymore to rave about a beauty in the Golden Age, there are so many, but she is just out of this world. The things she does with her face and eyes in Anna make me want to identify with everything she's feeling. The second time I watched the movie, that's just what I did. It was all about her.
And now I have these three new movies that are going smack dab on a VCR tape, post haste. I can't wait to see them. (I have seen Hamilton but long ago).
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*If you're reasonable and calm, I think an intelligent man like Dixon Steele would be reachable. Laurel did reach him and calmed him more than once even when he was in the midst of a temper. Let alone when he was calm. The movie showed this. The Dix I saw on screen wasn't quite the maniac that others see him as, if he was, I just don't think I'd give a whoop about this movie because then it would be a bore about a one-note bore who just likes pushing people around.*
Hi Goddess, if I may...
The JoeCollege incident is case in point where Dix listened to Laural but even he was able to realize (apparently) that killing someone would ruin his life. And the exigencies of the plot required that he not do that. That was a big event in the movie and and a quirky one.
But Dix was approached by Laural?calmly too. On the sofa just prior to the kitchen scene (I wonder if Bogie ever learned to cut a grapefruit, yike!) he casually mentions that Effie, the housekeeper, says that they should get married (Laural?s face stiffens). Then the conversation actually goes elsewhere they repair to the living room and sit on the couch. She CALMLY says to him that maybe they shouldn?t, ??rush into anything.?
Here?s what he says:
?Who said anything about rushing into anything. I thought if you could give an answer in the next 10 seconds, I?d go right out and buy a ring and we could have a little engagement party at Paul?s and invite a few select friends and enemies, take a plane to Las Vegas around midnight and be married??
Ten seconds! That?s almost comical but it says something about Dix. Watch how he fumbles and fidgets with his hands. It?s like he did in The Caine Mutiny only his hand are empty. I think he is being represented a somebody who is losing it. Laural is so alarmed she gets up in what could also be funny, ?The coffee!? she says when the perc goes off, using as this an excuse to get up from the sofa and go to the kitchen. He looks at her as she goes off as if he just doesn?t get it. Then he follows her to the kitchen and extracts a yes to marriage without the slightest interest why she is acting the way she or what she might be thinking.
Dix is ?intelligent? and certainly not ?a one-note bore,? but he, at least at this point, is not normal. He is not approachable. He was normal and quite charming earlier on when he was writing his screenplay with Laural by his side and that wonderful scene a the bar where they were so one with each other.
But from JoeCollege on he changed and so did Laural. He veered toward the maniacal and she toward fear. The story is that we are supposed to be on pins and needles on whether he was going to end up killing her and whether or not he killed Mildred always in the back of our minds. Any talk of trust or even their relationship, whether he is approachable, whether he can be reformed, doesn?t even seem to me be germane to the story anymore. There is enough residual interest with these things to keep us thinking but the movie at this point has become more of a thriller than anything else.
(BTW, Dix did not have her by the throat as I think I said above to Frank in that kitchen scene, he was holding her firmly by the shoulders, not quite so bad but still a little intrusive considering you're asking somebody to marry you)
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*_Frank_*
*That's a great point. Dix would have lost me if he had killed "Joe College." Laurel does save Dix. In fact, I think Dix viewed Laurel as his salvation. He loved her. He trusted her.*
It?s ironic that this is where she stopped trusting him and when the fear set in. Once that fear set in, trust was more difficult to treat in the story. And if he did trust her then I wish he had stopped and listened to her before getting in the car and driving recklessly. She tried to talk to him but he wouldn?t listen.
*I do believe Dix is capable of killing. He's a soldier. If he would have killed anyone, be it Mildred, "Joe College," or Laurel, he would have lost me. I understand anger and aggression but not killing. He's walking a very fine, grey line.*
We know that he is capable of killing because he's a soldier but here we're concerned whether he will kill because he acts like a maniac. He walks a fine line, and yet if he crosses the line he will be lost on you. He comes so close to doing so and is so capable of doing so and yet you so adamantly stay on his side. You view of him is constantly in jeopardy. Does it make you nervous
*just think Dix represents one attitude and "Junior" and "Joe College" represent another. I believe Dix is struggling with today, just as Charlie Waterman is. They are both killing themselves, just in different ways.*
I admit that these ?attitude? people did not register with me. In any case, I wonder if Dix is so volatile that he is even capable of making distinctions between who **** him off. If it had not been Joe College and if there was no mention of paint job, would Dix had reacted differently, say, to someone else? I wish they had toned down Dix volatility so I could say yes. But he is so out of control I think he would have turned on anyone. That doesn?t discount the significance of these ?attitude? people, they are nice touches, but they would mean more if Dix was not so over the top angry.
*It's my belief that Dix always had a violent temper, but it has been heightened since his return from war. He's frustrated... with many things. Then along comes Laurel. The power of woman.*
But not powerful enough. I think he loved her all right but he is too sick to show it and gain her trust. He made her afraid of him. As to the anger, his agent made it clear that he tried to get Dix to get professional help a long time before the war. I don't find a reason to disbelieve him.
*Absolutely. Dix is reacting to "Junior's" utter disrepect to his friend, Charlie. If you disrespect a man's woman, his family, or his friends, you disrespect him. Again, I think this is a commentary. Charlie represents a former "soldier," who fought many a "battle" long before "Junior" ever came to be. And "Junior" was handed his crown. He didn't fight for it. He married into it.*
Here again, I missed these fine points. This was an early scene and I didn?t get the details. Dix waited a long time before he went off on Junior though. That?s pretty good for him.
*Dix was in the wrong. He was driving like a mad man and he could have killed "Joe College." But, to me, "Joe College's" reaction was just as reckless.*
I would disagree. Joe College reaction was a normal one and what he did should not be compared with driving recklessly and almost killing someone. He was justified in saying anything he pleased. It doesn?t sound logical to me that if JoeC had said, ?You could?ve killed me,? that Dix would?ve said, ?Oh sorry.? He should have been sorry anyway. Still, if the movie wants to make a point that Dix reacted the way he did because Joe College represents an ?attitude? antithetical to Dix to explain Dix punching him out, I?m fine with that, but it?s not entirely realistic to me, considering Dix?s temperament. He would've punched anybody out IMO.
*That's not how I took his departue. I thought he felt disappointed and betrayed. His heart was broken. He thought he had found his true love.*
Given that then, he might?ve said something at that point. He might have pointed out to her his newly found innocence and tried to convince her that he would never do that again. A few minutes prior to strangling her he sat in a chair in her room and said to her regarding that the restaurant booth incident, ?It will never happen again.? Why didn?t he do it here? I think it?s because he knew he had gone to far and knew in his heart that it was over. Otherwise, it would not have been like him to just walk away from her.
*And if poor Laural is terribly upset it?s because she has very nearly been murdered. And she is unhappy because she really loved him though even she knew in those final moments it would never work. Dix is just too sick.*
*And that's not how I took Laurel's end. I thought she felt she had lost her love forever. She wouldn't have mentioned the word "love" if she didn't feel a sense of loss and regret.*
I agree there was a sense of loss and remorse. But she felt she had to break it off. She is the one who said, ?Yesterday, it would have meant something?? She willingly gave him up because she had enough. She couldn't take it. But it was still a loss.
*I never thought Dix was rough with Laurel until the very end. He crossed a serious line then. But, before that, his physicality with Laurel was loving. I do think Nick Ray had Dix hold Laurel's throat while kissing a couple times to give us the feeling of his being a threat.*
There were a couple of times like that but I don?t feel those were even necessarily threats. But I think he was hard on her and threatening when asking her to marry him. She was obviously stressed and tried to put him off but he would not listen. He held her throat and demanded only a yes or no answer. She said yes out of fear. This was terrible. If he loved her and trusted her then why can't he ever talk to her. Instead he ignored any attempt on her part to say anything and was just interested in controlling her. I agree he may have thought he loved her and perhaps he did in his own way, but he may have been really too sick to love anyone, at least properly. So I am a little at a loss how Laurel can be blamed on the trust issue.
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Frank, I think you make your points well and though I may have the minority view on some of these points I still, at least now, stand by them. I do seem to have a fixation on the extent of Dix's anger problems, make no mistake...in fact I believe he is a bona fide mental case, though I say that guardedly, haha, since I am not a doctor. I think his volatility dominates the film beginning to end and I think it hurts some of the other issues along the way.
The question of trust is sabotaged at the moment when it is tested. Remember the great scene at the bar. This might have been their finest hour. Then comes the beach party and the mention of Laural's visit to the Inspector's office (She did not want to go there BTW and I believe anyway that her reluctance to tell him was natural at that point, also to point out that her fear of him had not set in but shortly would). Dix gets angry and jumps in the car with Laural and we have the Joe College incident. This incident is so jarring and upsetting to Laural that she begins to doubt him and to fear him. Look at her face after she stops him from killing JoeC. From this point on Laural practically lives in fear of him. She thinks that maybe he killed Mildred. She has that conversation with the friend, "But you aren't laughing," etc. I think it's curious that if Ray, for instance, wanted this story to be about trust, he might have been more subtle and not had the JoeC incident occur so soon. The fear and doubt of Dix instilled in Laural by that effectively precludes any real look at trust. From that point on Laural's fear is justified. And with that kind of fear, trust cannot be sustained. Again, Laural cannot be faulted on the trust issue, IMO
I believe that this story, unwittingly or not, is about Dix's anger and what it might or might not make him do. The original scheme of the story is simple. Dix is angry from the get-go, he has the meeting with Mildred, she gets murdered. Did he kill her? We know his anger. Laural provides an alibi. They fall in love. And the question becomes will he now kill her? Did he kill Mildred and will he now kill her? This was the original story. They even had the ending that he actually does kill her. Now I don't know whether that was the original ending or maybe they tried that second but it is at least possible that many of the scenes in this movie were shot with the idea that he would kill her in the end. To keep that tension the audience had to be continually reminded that Dix was a volatile and angry person and was capable of murder. And we see this anger contunually, especially in the last third of the film, beginning with the JoeC incident and the beginning of Laural's fear.
I mention this---and I realize rather crudely and simply---to suggest that perhaps this is why that the most dominate theme, despite all the other interesting things that have been discussed about this story, is still Dix's volatile nature, and why he comes across almost psychotic at times. And i wonder if this story and movie might have been so much better if thay had not had that original mental set (which, let's not forget, was adapted from a story about a psychotic killer) and rather came up with an original story that could have toned down Dix's temperament and therefore been able to properly treat issues having to do with the relationships and trust, etc. It might have been better. The fact is, however, that it's this maniacally, temperamental Dixon Steele that makes this movie so difficult for me. He is just simply over the top.
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*Listen, there's no need to walk the plank (THIS TIME)!! Mr. G. and Ms. G. still want to talk with you about "IN A LONELY PLACE."*
I know...or at least I hope so.
Which rum are you on? Can you read this?
Oh don't mind me, I know you can.
*MissGoddess*: Very nice, very nice. I may wait for Frank and Molo to weigh in (or others) before I respond. I'm off Mon, Tue, Wed and back to work today, so I have less time for this but I will reading and mulling. If Frank and Molo have not responded by the time I'm back from work (late this evening), I may respond to what you wrote this AM, otherwise probably better to wait till I can read it all. Cheers.
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A CHRISTMAS CAROL
?where Scrooge was already beside himself traipsing around and yelling ?Humbug? This was a highly unpleasant thing for Santa and the missus to have to listen to, not to mention the elves who?ve been working their butts off year after year. But the gang accepted it because they knew the story and therefore knew that Scrooge would come around in the end and besides this was better than getting thrown out the plane, for heaven?s sake. But then suddenly a whirlwind force swept them out this story and placed them slap dab right in the middle of another, a story about?
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*Au contraire, mon frere. Cyrano did indeed write those poems. He WAS the letter-writer. He wrote them TO Roxanne FOR Christian. No backhanded swipes or Freudian slips here. Just a plain ol? red petticoat of truth Cap?n Butler gave me.*
O mon Dieu, Mademoiselle, did I get that wrong? I reversed the characters! Tiens, that's how much Laffite knows, que voila. Ouch!
Listen to you, "Roxanne," "Christian," you know all the characters and I don't even know who wrote the letters. I don't even know who Cap'n Butler is.
Sad.
Please excuse me now, I have a plank to walk...
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*I haven't watched that featurette yet. Boy, if that were the ending, I would have a completely different feeling about Dix.*
Frank, just curious, how would you feel about Dix had he killed the football player? Had it not been for Laural he would have. I think we are meant to believe that. He was going to bash his head with a rock and probably over and over again just like when he was punching him. That Dix does not actually kill anyone does not mean that he is not capable of it. Or is it only because he would kill Laural (in the alternate ending) that you would have a different idea of Dix? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.
*It's my belief Dix is to represent the returning soldier and their adjustment troubles. You wisely denote Dix's reported altercations as starting in 1946 with World War II having come to an end in 1945.*
I would downplay the returning soldier idea. It wasn?t fully developed and it is persuasively offset by this conversation that Laural had with the agent during which the agent says, ??years ago I tried to make him go and see a psychiatrist. I though he?d kill me. Always violent. Why it?s as much a part of him as the color of his eyes, the shape of his head. He?s Dix Steele, and if you want him, you gotta take it all, the bad with the good. I?ve taken it for 20 years, and I?d do it again.? This speech reveals that Dix?s psychological and volatility problems predate the war by many years. But there were several references to the war so it may have a factor, but I don?t think it explains Dix.
*I also think it's important to note that two of the guys Dix smacked around were spoiled brats. One was a "junior" while the other was a "college star." And I believe it's vital to recognize that both of these "boys" disrespected Dix and did so with disdain and aggression. Two different kind of mentalities; the returning soldier meets the rich, college boy.*
The background of these fellows provide capsule back stories but are not developed at all. More important to me is what actually happens in the present moment. The ?junior? is a loudmouth and bully but what sets Dix off is not that he was being disrespected but because the junior put a cigarette ash in the thespian?s drink. We already know and learn more later how kind Dix is to the thespian and Dix didn?t like it. I think Dix was reacting specifically to that. Your screencap shows that too. And to whatever brat status the college star qualifies, I believe, Frank, that Dix was entirely in the wrong in every way. As *Rohanaka* points out Dix practically killed the kid and ruined his car. The kid should be angry. He was lucky to be alive and we know how much $200 was in his day. If he was acting disrespectful and disdainful towards Dix, he had every right to be. Dix deserved it. Or maybe just me. I think I tend to be a lot tougher on Dix than you do, Frank.
*I absolutely love the ending. It's Dix who walks out and it's Laurel who is terribly upset. Amazing.*
And yet it's not as if Dix is walking out in the way we normally think, as if he has made a conscious decision that he wants to move on, ho-hum, etc. He walks out in absolute ignominy. He has gone to far and even he knows it. And if poor Laural is terribly upset it?s because she has very nearly been murdered. And she is unhappy because she really loved him though even she knew in those final moments it would never work. Dix is just too sick.
I don?t think I really buy this idea but?maybe finding out that he was no longer a suspect changes everything for him. He no longer needs Laural, after all. She was originally an alibi and maybe she?s nothing to him now. The screenplay has been accepted and according to his agent success is more important to Dix than anything else. That?s why the agent wanted to get the screenplay to the boss, because if it was accepted, then Dix would be happy and not be so prone to violence. He says that to Laural in the conversation they had in her apartment.
*Ahhhhh, yes, Laurel Gray. She needs a good spanking. She's gonna get one, too.*
*The word "trust" is going to play a critical role in future spanki... I mean, postings.*
Frank, I?m totally lost. Why does Laural need a spanking? Maybe you are making a joke? I can be quite thick at times. I think you see something in Laural that I?m not even aware of. Uh-oh, Laffite?s missed something again.
Dix behaves badly in those other instances already discussed but the way he comes to treat Laural is particularly disturbing to me. He becomes a downright bully. Coming up behind her in the kitchen and holding her in a vice-like grip and telling her a simple yes or no would do (with regard to whether she will marry him or not). I mean, honestly, what a bastard! The Reign of Terror against her in full swing. Uh-oh, I?ve done it now Am I missing something about Laural?//
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>I believe they are also airing A Yank at Oxford that day, her birthday.
Thanks for the tip, I missed that.
Do you know who did that painting you sent Monik? I like it.
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As usual, my good and dear *Cinemaven*, you have been too kind and though i certainly appreciate it, I truly believe your remark says a lot more about you then it does about me, and not only about you but all the rest of us who have just now and often responded, to me, to you, to others with kind enthusiasm. The tendency to be supportive of one another is really important and we have that in abundance here. And yet we know that it's really not about us but about them, the Humphrey's and the Glorias, and all the rest of them, and of course the movies...movies that are, sadly, ignored by an alarmingly large number of people. I know, I was one of them...and then came TCM...and then all of you and here we are.
*Cinemaven*, the only thing wrong with your Laffite de Bergerac analogy is that those beautiful love poems that Monsieur Cyrano wrote to his would-be and hoped-for paramour were actually written by someone else, another character in the play. What a clever way to deliver an underhanded swipe. I know you didn't mean it that way, I'm kidding...still I hope it wasn't a Freudian Slip (wink). So far as I know I don't have a ghostwriter although I have to admit things have been a little spooky lately...but may that was just Halloween just passed. _*King Rambler Molo XIV*_
*Somebody notify the Vatican! Laffite may have performed a miracle here!
*I think I just have. Have you noticed the Grimes has just aired out on IALP? Maybe we should thank the Dallas Cowboys. They are on a big roll and are tied for first place. Grimes may just be in a good mood.
*Hmm...Saint Laffite ? That would be an odd turn for a pirate!*
We pirates are often underestimated. But Saint Laffite might be going too far. The Church would never be the same (and neither would Laffite).
_*Cowboy Fan Supreme de Grimes!*_
*I believe Dix struggles to show remorse... at first. He's the symbol of an abusive relationship. After a cooling off period, he feels guilt and remorse and then he apologizes... via "gifts." With Laurel, he straight up apologizes to her.*
I?ve read through all and will again more closely but this popped out at me. I think you have disabused me a false notion on my part, that is, trying see more in a situation than there really is. When I saw Dix send the money to the football player, I, of course, knew that he had really in fact beat up the guy. So I thought, well, maybe that means (or the story wants us to suspect) he?s guilty of Mildred?s murder because he sent flowers to her. In other words, he sends gift only when he?s guilty of something. But that?s where I goofed. As you indicate he sent the flowers because of a general sense of remorse, maybe he felt a little responsible for not having taken her home, or perhaps he was just sorry?or at least for reasons having nothing to do with the idea he might have murdered her. I never believed and I don?t think we were meant to believe that Dix was guilty of Mildred?s murder---I don?t think this movie was a mystery in the conventional sense---but I still think it interesting that they threw that gift giving idea in the mix.
_*Rohanaka:*_ *Perhaps he WAS mentally ill.*
_*Miss Goddess:*_ *He was perhaps, partly messed up from the war, partly too isolated from others who would hold him accountable for his behavior (in the military he'd get in trouble for acting like that with other officers). Just goes to show you how much this character generates speculation!*
I think this movie should be assigned as homework for advanced psychiatry seminars requiring each student to issue a diagnosis on Dixon Steele. Then maybe we can clear this up once and for all
As an FYI, *Molo* referred to your long post to me and I took the opportunity to respond in conjunction with my responses to Molo.
. I won't do a line-by-line response to that fine post you did, Miss Goddess, I will probably write a few short paragraphs some time later on these issues. I watched the movie a couple of nights ago and it clarified a few thing for me. I would now disavow some of my earlier musings and I have you, in part, to thank for this. The depth of your analyses can be quite dizzying and your cogent arguments are formidable. Now if I could just get you and Frank to like Laural a little more
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*Lafitte, ya had me until you mentioned Dix & Effie could have been an item.*
That was a spoof, Cinemaven. But maybe you know that and are spoofing back, yes?
*"Battle-axes" like Martha often get maligned in movies. They're not the pretty petite cutesy size 4's. Not crazy about the term (battle-axe) either.*
Sorry, bad term. No harm intended. I give the impression that I like to make up words for people and that?s not good. I meant that Ray might have thought it was visually interesting to have a heavyset (better?) tough talking woman as a confidant (friend, whatever) and to capitalize with those scenes as presented, which were entertaining in themselves besides serving their function in he movie.
Cinemaven, I like the manner in which you put your points across. You and I are fundamentally in agreement in defending Laural and I like the way you informally and breezily couch the issues in a recognizably realistic way that is very effective. You say the same or very similar things than I do but with a lot less words than I and with probably a lot more punch.
///