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FORGOTTEN Oldies


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15 minutes ago, Allhallowsday said:

White artists were covering black artists long before PAT or RICKY... The difference for RICKY NELSON was surrounding himself with talent like JAMES BURTON (guitar god) and JAMES KIRKLAND.  I don't dislike PAT BOONE, but I don't like his records and hear even middle of the road (at best) stuff like  "Be Bop Baby" more than any PAT BOONE at all. 

 The situation concerning covering black artists by white artists in the early days of rock and roll is much more complicated than that.

The practice was also used against white country and western artists.

The mainstream artist came from the big National Record companies and they had all of the ammunition to destroy a record from a small company on the airwaves.

You'd have to better understand the climate of the time of segregation and Jim Crow, to better understand that mainstream audiences were not really listening to black music or attending concerts with black artists from Rock and rhythm and blues

 Everything was segregated-- that included radio stations.

It was really rock and roll that started integration in this country not the laws. The white teenagers wanted to listen to Chuck Berry and then Motown made it totally mainstream to buy records with black artists.

Motown help to integrate the South by taking their Revue to Jim Crow areas and seeing how the white teenagers would demand to come anyway.

In the beginning Elvis Presley was greatly attacked for singing n-word music. He was a target for white supremacists hate and a target for conservative people who thought he was spreading vulgarity with copying black dancing and black type singing.

Rock and roll really changed the cultural history of America.

Mainstream Artists wore told and sometimes forced by the record companies to find something that was Rock Oriented to stay on the charts.

You have to have a better historical understanding of how segregated the country was in those days to better understand why people are so angry about these cover records, yet at the same time--

For the record companies it was all about capitalism in money and squeezing out the small record labels who recorded the black rock and roll and R&B artists and the white Country artists.

You would do well to read some historical information on Sam Phillips, Berry Gordy and others to see what a complicated issue this is and not so easily discussed without understanding the background it's coming from.

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37 minutes ago, Princess of Tap said:

Absolutely not. I'm talking about a British Invasion group called The Nashville Teens who had a terrific number called "Tobacco Road".

Sorry about that, misunderstood you. 

46 minutes ago, Princess of Tap said:

You would do well to read some historical information on Sam Phillips, Berry Gordy and others to see what a complicated issue this is and not so easily discussed without understanding the background it's coming from.

This sounds a little unfriendly.  I'm not naive about records, though your points are well taken (I only quoted a portion of what you wrote) but you neglect to point out that black artists records were called "race records" at least until the late '40s.  Who doesn't know (at least if you're a Rock n' Roller) that ELVIS' records were considered... uh, "race" records?  I understand segregation, including of records.  I don't know what you didn't like or disagree with that I wrote, but I know Rock n' Roll had a lot to do with opening American culture. 

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2 hours ago, Allhallowsday said:

Sorry about that, misunderstood you. 

This sounds a little unfriendly.  I'm not naive about records, though your points are well taken (I only quoted a portion of what you wrote) but you neglect to point out that black artists records were called "race records" at least until the late '40s.  Who doesn't know (at least if you're a Rock n' Roller) that ELVIS' records were considered... uh, "race" records?  I understand segregation, including of records.  I don't know what you didn't like or disagree with that I wrote, but I know Rock n' Roll had a lot to do with opening American culture. 

Great, then we're on the same page.

And we're not going to bring up "Surfin USA", the one really big mistake that Brian Wilson ever made in his musical career. But it did pay off for him, didn't it?  

Brian is my favorite rock and roll artist, composer, record producer, arranger Etc, but facts are facts.

And the record business like any competitive capitalistic venture in the United States is a very tough nut to crack and even tougher to stay on top of.

So it's not surprising, that at times people were led to do things that weren't entirely Fair, or weren't entirely decent.

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44 minutes ago, Princess of Tap said:

Great, then we're on the same page.

And we're not going to bring up "Surfin USA", the one really big mistake that Brian Wilson ever made in his musical career. But it did pay off for him, didn't it?  

Brian is my favorite rock and roll artist, composer, record producer, arranger Etc, but facts are facts.

And the record business like any competitive capitalistic venture in the United States is a very tough nut to crack and even tougher to stay on top of.

So it's not surprising, that at times people were led to do things that weren't entirely Fair, or weren't entirely decent.

I still don't get it... I get the mechanisms of record producing... did we disagree about anything?   I don't like PAT BOONE's records, but I don't dislike the man.  I love BRIAN WILSON and am also a long time BEACH BOYS fan.  I don't disagree with any of your assertions.  Like you, I am also a big record fan and didn't disagree with anything you wrote (except for my obvious mistake).  I didn't cite "Surfin' USA" so... huh?   Did we disagree about something?  I am easily confused, 'specially these days. 

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5 minutes ago, Allhallowsday said:

I still don't get it... I get the mechanisms of record producing... did we disagree about anything?   I don't like PAT BOONE's records, but I don't dislike the man.  I love BRIAN WILSON and am also a long time BEACH BOYS fan.  I don't disagree with any of your assertions.  Like you, I am also a big record fan and didn't disagree with anything you wrote (except for my obvious mistake).  I didn't cite "Surfin' USA" so... huh?   Did we disagree about something?  I am easily confused, 'specially these days. 

No we're not disagreeing on anything. I'm just bringing up another subject that I always like to talk about-- Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys.

And I'm glad you like talking about them too.

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1 minute ago, Princess of Tap said:

No we're not disagreeing on anything. I'm just bringing up another subject that I always like to talk about-- Brian Wilson of The Beach Boys.

And I'm glad you like talking about them too.

You are cool.  Mainly because of your good taste.

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22 hours ago, Princess of Tap said:

 

 The Nashville Teens had a hit with "Tobacco Road" in 1964 as part of the British Invasion. The record you're talking about must have been a cover and it was never a national hit.

As far as Pat Boone was concerned, a lot of people were doing what he did starting with Ricky Nelson and others.

Pat Boone had a very good voice and was a real legitimate singer. Later he went into the movies. He was on the same level of real singers who did standard material. In those days legitimate singers had to try to do rock and roll to get on the charts. Andy Williams covered somebody's rock and roll song and got a number one hit out of it called "Butterfly". And Ricky Nelson covered Fats Domino's song "I'm Walking" and got a career out of it.

Those who could sing well did go on to do that and Pat Boone was certainly one of them.

PRINCESS

There've been about 200+ "covers" of "Tobacco Road" since composer John D. Loudermilk's  initial 1960 release by such diverse artists like The Blues Magoos, The Jefferson airplane, Lou Rawls,  Edgar Winter,  Eric Burdon and  The Animals,( and there's  live jam of it with Jimi Hendrix sitting in) Status Quo,  Spooky Tooth, Shocking Blue, Rare Earth.  The Nashville Teens record was just another of the many "covers".  

There's even legend that The Jackson 5 recorded a "demo" of it for their Motown audition, but the tape got lost to history.  

And I never intimated that I thought Pat Boone wasn't a good singer.  Just too "white bread" for a tune like "Tutti Frutti".    And all because Whitey was afraid of the "bad influence"  their kids might get from records by those "jig-a-boos".   :rolleyes:

And to give a nod to what was discussed a bit earlier....  How about a listen to the original of............

Sepiatone

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12 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

PRINCESS

There've been about 200+ "covers" of "Tobacco Road" since composer John D. Loudermilk's  initial 1960 release by such diverse artists like The Blues Magoos, The Jefferson airplane, Lou Rawls,  Edgar Winter,  Eric Burdon and  The Animals,( and there's  live jam of it with Jimi Hendrix sitting in) Status Quo,  Spooky Tooth, Shocking Blue, Rare Earth.  The Nashville Teens record was just another of the many "covers".  

There's even legend that The Jackson 5 recorded a "demo" of it for their Motown audition, but the tape got lost to history.  

And I never intimated that I thought Pat Boone wasn't a good singer.  Just too "white bread" for a tune like "Tutti Frutti".    And all because Whitey was afraid of the "bad influence"  their kids might get from records by those "jig-a-boos".   :rolleyes:

And to give a nod to what was discussed a bit earlier....  How about a listen to the original of............

Sepiatone

I don't think I've ever heard that recording. 

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15 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

And I never intimated that I thought Pat Boone wasn't a good singer.  Just too "white bread" for a tune like "Tutti Frutti".    And all because Whitey was afraid of the "bad influence"  their kids might get from records by those "jig-a-boos".   

I am distracted easily.  That would certainly be the first or second point about PAT BOONE's career.  The times they were a changin'.  YouTube has Tutti Fruitti, but seeing is believing: 

 

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Just now, Allhallowsday said:

I don't think I've ever heard that recording. 

So.....   where WERE you in 1960?   I was ear to the radio.  And too, eventually heard THESE two Loudermilk favorites (and still are----)  

 

 

Sepiatone

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2 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

So.....   where WERE you in 1960?   I was ear to the radio.  And too, eventually heard THESE two Loudermilk favorites (and still are----)  

^ In 1960?  I was not yet born.  I think I've come across LOUDERMILK's name in my reading, but I don't recall listening to his records.  I think I've listened to lots of artists covering him.  I know the name as a songwriter.

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20 hours ago, Allhallowsday said:

^ In 1960?  I was not yet born.  I think I've come across LOUDERMILK's name in my reading, but I don't recall listening to his records.  I think I've listened to lots of artists covering him.  I know the name as a songwriter.

Indeed.  You might(or not) be surprised at his prolificacy as a songwriter.  Just peruse through this site: http://ihesm.com/Loudermilk2.html   and you'll see plenty of familiar titles.  ;)   Seems a lot of European and South American artists recorded his songs.  

And, to not ignore the oldies, here's one( but not a Loudermilk one)----   '57

 

Sepiatone

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Not that many months apart, I guess both Nelson tunes are "forgotten"  ;) 

But here's one tune from PERCY MAYFIELD that's no doubt forgotten, followed by another I never heard until years after the last clip posted.  ;) 

 

 

My first hearing of this tune.......  ;)

 

Sepiatone

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29 minutes ago, Sepiatone said:

Not that many months apart, I guess both Nelson tunes are "forgotten"

"Be Bop Baby" is okay, but forgettable.   It's the hit off of RICKY's first album (1957).  "Believe What You Say" is off of his third album Ricky Sings Again (1959) which is his masterpiece. 

 

 

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I love Italian films, and own a few, but I've long been a little scared to look at SALO .  It's also PIERS PAOLO PASSOLINI and about 50 years ago THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ST. MATTHEW  - IL VANGELO SECONDO MATTEO was broadcast on network TV .  That would have meant nothing to me then, but it was Easter Sunday so any religious subject matter on the TV would have been on.  I was under 10 years of age, it was frightening.  I've never forgotten the experience.  I like that music.  SALO of course, is notorious.  

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