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The Cook-Windsor marriage doesn't make sense except as she points out it was for money.  There was that scene where she told him he promised a different car to drive every day, living in a fancy apartment on Park Ave., etc.  True they were only promises, but considering where the Windsor character came from that was probably as good as she was going to get.

I think it was interesting that Muller did not comment on Vince Edwards (AKA Ben Casey).  To me appeared clear that he really didn't care much for Windsor in reality and would probably have dumped her soon after getting his hands on the money.  Guess she was supposed to be blind to this.

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Just now, TheCid said:

The Cook-Windsor marriage doesn't make sense except as she points out it was for money.  There was that scene where she told him he promised a different car to drive every day, living in a fancy apartment on Park Ave., etc.  True they were only promises, but considering where the Windsor character came from that was probably as good as she was going to get.

I think it was interesting that Muller did not comment on Vince Edwards (AKA Ben Casey).  To me appeared clear that he really didn't care much for Windsor in reality and would probably have dumped her soon after getting his hands on the money.  Guess she was supposed to be blind to this.

Granted that he made all those promises, but Marie's character seems too smart to believe that a

loser like Cook could ever get close to making them come true. Maybe she was just satisfied for

Elisha to be out of the house working so she could sit on her behind or go out on a date with

Vince. Yeah, I don't think Vince had much of an interest in Marie. Too old. She was just a time

filler until something better came along and if the money had come through, he would have cut

her out PDQ. Elisha started out with a hole in his stomach and Marie ended up with one in

her's. 

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7 hours ago, TheCid said:

1.  He promised to become really rich, as she notes in an early scene.

Mm, not good enough. I'm not convinced by this explanation. I'm more inclined to agree with Vautrin, 

 

1 hour ago, Vautrin said:

Granted that he made all those promises, but Marie's character seems too smart to believe that a

loser like Cook could ever get close to making them come true.

Yeah, Marie Windsor's "Sherry" seems too smart and too hard to be marrying someone as milquetoast as Elisha Cook's character. Someone like that would want something more than a vague promise that "someday they'd be rich". It's all a little unconvincing, but works for the story. And boy, is that Sherry a harpy! As nasty as they come.

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8 hours ago, TheCid said:

2.  The black guy was an attendant, not really a guard.  To be clear to others reading your post, Carey was shot by an armed guard, not the black attendant.

Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure that it is the black guy who shoots him. There is another guard, or attendant, or whatever that particular position was called, on the scene as Carey tries to pull away, but I thought I saw the black guard, the one Carey had been speaking with, shoot him. I was watching the guy a lot after "Nick" snapped his horrible racist insult at him, just to see what, if anything, he might do next.

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13 hours ago, TheCid said:

3.I picked up on Jay C. Flippen asking Hayden to go away, just the two of them.  But didn't see it as a gay reference.  Just an old man with no one who wanted a son.

Yes, I remember the old guy saying he thought of Johnny as a son. Maybe you're right. But I also did pick up on a gay vibe. The Flippen character says something like, "marriage, it's no good" (which of course doesn't necessarily mean he's gay...). Just the way he so touchingly asks Johnny to go away with him after the heist, "just the two of us", felt to me like he had feelings that were more than fatherly towards Johnny.

But it's certainly open to interpretation, and I could be wrong...

By the way, Cid, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm "stalking" you or picking on you, taking 3 of your comments and quoting them and disagreeing with them all ! I like your contributions here - - and at least you know I pay attention to what you post.

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9 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Yes, I remember the old guy saying he thought of Johnny as a son. Maybe you're right. But I also did pick up on a gay vibe. The Flippen character says something like, "marriage, it's no good" (which of course doesn't necessarily mean he's gay...). Just the way he so touchingly asks Johnny to go away with him after the heist, "just the two of us", felt to me like he had feelings that were more than fatherly towards Johnny.

To me it was more a father and son vibe. I've never even would have thought it otherwise until it was brought up here. But with say Desert Fury it definitely was giving off "gay" vibes, in fact it was quite over the top. 

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12 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Mm, not good enough. I'm not convinced by this explanation. I'm more inclined to agree with Vautrin, 

 

Yeah, Marie Windsor's "Sherry" seems too smart and too hard to be marrying someone as milquetoast as Elisha Cook's character. Someone like that would want something more than a vague promise that "someday they'd be rich". It's all a little unconvincing, but works for the story. And boy, is that Sherry a harpy! As nasty as they come.

 

14 hours ago, Vautrin said:

Granted that he made all those promises, but Marie's character seems too smart to believe that a

loser like Cook could ever get close to making them come true. Maybe she was just satisfied for

Elisha to be out of the house working so she could sit on her behind or go out on a date with

Vince.

 

12 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Mm, not good enough. I'm not convinced by this explanation. I'm more inclined to agree with Vautrin, 

 

Yeah, Marie Windsor's "Sherry" seems too smart and too hard to be marrying someone as milquetoast as Elisha Cook's character. Someone like that would want something more than a vague promise that "someday they'd be rich". It's all a little unconvincing, but works for the story. And boy, is that Sherry a harpy! As nasty as they come.

Could debate this forever, but I don't see it as all that unbelievable.  Windsor character was looking for a meal ticket and probably in her environment a man she could easily dominate and who had a steady income probably looked good when she married him.  As Vautrin pointed out, she did nothing and had plenty of time to mess around with other guys with no questions from Cook.  As Vince Edwards pointed out, Cook never asked her where she had been when she went to the 2:00 PM movie and didn't get home until very late at night.

And considering she was not very bright herself, she could well have believed Cook was going to get rich or at least much better off.  After all, she believed Vince Edwards.

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13 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure that it is the black guy who shoots him. There is another guard, or attendant, or whatever that particular position was called, on the scene as Carey tries to pull away, but I thought I saw the black guard, the one Carey had been speaking with, shoot him. I was watching the guy a lot after "Nick" snapped his horrible racist insult at him, just to see what, if anything, he might do next.

I agree.

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13 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Yes, I remember the old guy saying he thought of Johnny as a son. Maybe you're right. But I also did pick up on a gay vibe. The Flippen character says something like, "marriage, it's no good" (which of course doesn't necessarily mean he's gay...). Just the way he so touchingly asks Johnny to go away with him after the heist, "just the two of us", felt to me like he had feelings that were more than fatherly towards Johnny.

But it's certainly open to interpretation, and I could be wrong...

By the way, Cid, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm "stalking" you or picking on you, taking 3 of your comments and quoting them and disagreeing with them all ! I like your contributions here - - and at least you know I pay attention to what you post.

Yes, I picked up on that also. (first time I saw it). It's there. But I'm sure most in the audience back then didnt necesssarily see that. The Jay C. Flippen character fawns over Johnny through the whole film.......

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21 hours ago, TheCid said:

Marie Windsor was definitely the female lead, as even Colleen Gray admitted.  BTW, I think Gray was much better in Kansas City Story, but that was also a "good girl" role.

As for Marie Windsor, she nailed and always did.  She should have received an oscar or at least a nomination for Best Supporting Actress.  Found it interesting that Kubrick held up production so she could finish Swamp Women.  Have that on a multi-movie DVD "mystery" movie set.  She stars in it as the leader of a group of women prisoners on the run.  Touch Connors is the male lead.  Beverly Garland is also in it. 

I think the narration really was necessary to the movie.  I could see how a movie audience would have been confused.  Even though I had seen it before, the backtracking would have confused me this time without the narration.  Not even sure it would work today considering how many characters and how much moving back and forth.  Example:  the TV series Motive uses a similar format and even though I watch closely I still get disoriented at times.  Here again have seen episodes several times.

As for the shootout, agree it took place to quickly.  Also a little hard to believe that many guys killed with so few poorly aimed shots.

As usual Muller's commentaries really make it worth watching Noir Alley.

 

It confused me the first time I saw it, even WITH the narration!

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13 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure that it is the black guy who shoots him. There is another guard, or attendant, or whatever that particular position was called, on the scene as Carey tries to pull away, but I thought I saw the black guard, the one Carey had been speaking with, shoot him. I was watching the guy a lot after "Nick" snapped his horrible racist insult at him, just to see what, if anything, he might do next.

Would have to watch it again.  But, if memory serves, the black guy did not have on a gun belt or a hat, just a tan uniform.  The shooter had on a gun belt and I believe a police type hat.

13 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Yes, I remember the old guy saying he thought of Johnny as a son. Maybe you're right. But I also did pick up on a gay vibe. The Flippen character says something like, "marriage, it's no good" (which of course doesn't necessarily mean he's gay...). Just the way he so touchingly asks Johnny to go away with him after the heist, "just the two of us", felt to me like he had feelings that were more than fatherly towards Johnny.

But it's certainly open to interpretation, and I could be wrong...

By the way, Cid, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm "stalking" you or picking on you, taking 3 of your comments and quoting them and disagreeing with them all ! I like your contributions here - - and at least you know I pay attention to what you post.

Not at all.  That's why I come to this site.  The interesting thing about movies is that we can all see the same thing and come to different conclusions as to what it means.

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5 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

To me it was more a father and son vibe. I've never even would have thought it otherwise until it was brought up here. But with say Desert Fury it definitely was giving off "gay" vibes, in fact it was quite over the top. 

Well, it's one of the interesting things about The Killing, there are a lot of things to notice and ponder and debate.

What I can't remember is whether the old guy knew that Johnny was planning to marry Fay (Coleen Gray's character) as soon as the heist was done and they'd made a clean escape (which of course didn't happen....) Or maybe Johnny and Fay were already married?  In any case, if Flippen's character were aware that Johnny had a woman in his life, why would he have suggested the two of them go away together? No inclusion of Fay was mentioned. I just think, if he just had paternal feelings for Johnny, he might have suggested that he join Johnny and Fay, maybe hang about as a surrogate grandpa type figure, an honourary member of the family. But what he seems to want is for it to be just him and Johnny.

I'm not saying he was proposing an outright gay relationship with Johnny, more that he might have had feelings for him (Johnny) that even he might not have recognized. But for sure, he didn't want Fay around in this proposed "get away together" idea he had. Not very fatherly...

ps: I'm not one of those people who sees a gay subtext in every movie I watch !

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I don't see a gay subtext, just a bestiality one. Flippen is into man horse love. That's why he

shows up at the track drunk. He had just been rejected by Red Lightning and that had to

hurt. Another minor point that I pondered over. Would a racetrack really have 2 million on a

single day in 1956? Sounds a little far-fetched, but I don't know anything about the economics

of horse racing. YT has The Killing, though in a mediocre print. The guy who shoots Carey looks

like another guy and not the black dude, though the black guy did throw the horseshoe on the

ground that might have impeded Carey's getaway. 

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25 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

I don't see a gay subtext, just a bestiality one. Flippen is into man horse love. That's why he

shows up at the track drunk. He had just been rejected by Red Lightning and that had to

hurt. Another minor point that I pondered over. Would a racetrack really have 2 million on a

single day in 1956? Sounds a little far-fetched, but I don't know anything about the economics

of horse racing. YT has The Killing, though in a mediocre print. The guy who shoots Carey looks

like another guy and not the black dude, though the black guy did throw the horseshoe on the

ground that might have impeded Carey's getaway. 

LOL! I'll have to watch that scene carefully the next time (Not Jay C. but the parking lot!)

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5 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Well, it's one of the interesting things about The Killing, there are a lot of things to notice and ponder and debate.

What I can't remember is whether the old guy knew that Johnny was planning to marry Fay (Coleen Gray's character) as soon as the heist was done and they'd made a clean escape (which of course didn't happen....) Or maybe Johnny and Fay were already married?  In any case, if Flippen's character were aware that Johnny had a woman in his life, why would he have suggested the two of them go away together? No inclusion of Fay was mentioned. I just think, if he just had paternal feelings for Johnny, he might have suggested that he join Johnny and Fay, maybe hang about as a surrogate grandpa type figure, an honourary member of the family. But what he seems to want is for it to be just him and Johnny.

I'm not saying he was proposing an outright gay relationship with Johnny, more that he might have had feelings for him (Johnny) that even he might not have recognized. But for sure, he didn't want Fay around in this proposed "get away together" idea he had. Not very fatherly...

ps: I'm not one of those people who sees a gay subtext in every movie I watch !

I think the comment he made about marriage made that clear. He had to have known they were going off together.

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45 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

I don't see a gay subtext, just a bestiality one. Flippen is into man horse love. That's why he

shows up at the track drunk. He had just been rejected by Red Lightning and that had to

hurt. Another minor point that I pondered over. Would a racetrack really have 2 million on a

single day in 1956? Sounds a little far-fetched, but I don't know anything about the economics

of horse racing. YT has The Killing, though in a mediocre print. The guy who shoots Carey looks

like another guy and not the black dude, though the black guy did throw the horseshoe on the

ground that might have impeded Carey's getaway. 

Not sure, but I think I saw a movie that indicated the state gaming laws required that the tracks had to have enough money to pay off lots of winners.  Then add that to what was bet and it probably adds up.  Or maybe that was about Nevada casinos?

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1 hour ago, Hibi said:

LOL! I'll have to watch that scene carefully the next time (Not Jay C. but the parking lot!)

The scene of Carey being shot only lasts a few seconds so it's hard to tell, but one thing I

noticed is that the man who shot Carey is wearing a tie while the black guy's tie is tucked

into the collar of his shirt and also the shooter looks white. Carey probably should have

found a more secluded area if one was available. 

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1 hour ago, TheCid said:

Not sure, but I think I saw a movie that indicated the state gaming laws required that the tracks had to have enough money to pay off lots of winners.  Then add that to what was bet and it probably adds up.  Or maybe that was about Nevada casinos?

You could very well be right about that. It just seemed like that was a lot of cash to

have on hand in 1956 dollars. In the end it didn't matter anyway, it all went up in the air.

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18 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

The scene of Carey being shot only lasts a few seconds so it's hard to tell, but one thing I

noticed is that the man who shot Carey is wearing a tie while the black guy's tie is tucked

into the collar of his shirt and also the shooter looks white. Carey probably should have

found a more secluded area if one was available. 

Yeah, the scene is very tightly edited. I may have to pause it......

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Pausing the Blu-Ray you can tell it is definitely not James Edwards who shoots Carey.  Edwards is wearing a tie, but it is tucked midway down into his shirt.  The guard who shoots Carey is wearing a tie that is out of his shirt.

As to the Windsor/Cook marriage I look at it as types.  Obviously Sherry (Windsor) is attracted to bad guys like Val.  So my guess is that is an angle that enabled George to win her over.  He promises future security and he is someone she can manipulate as opposed to her usual type, Val.  So their marriage makes sense to me in the same sense of all bad marriages.  She wanted a type of guy who was all wrong for marriage, safety, and security, so she eventually gave into a guy she knew she could manipulate who promised safety and security.  She could believe George because he was so far opposite to men like Val who only promised excitement and drama.  I mean movies are so full of character dynamics in marriages like this.  The marriage is either bad because she married the wild stallion she never should have or because she married the seemingly safe guy in hopes she would be taken care of. 

Okay so this is off topic, but so annoying.  Last night I was watching THE SEVEN-UPS (1973) on Sling TV TCM ON DEMAND.  I had to stop for about forty minutes to do something else and when I came back the movie was gone.  No joke.  It was suddenly no longer available to watch. WOW is that annoying!!!!! :angry:

And I am currently watching HOTEL ARTEMIS (2018).  It is pretty good after an hour in. ;)

 

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6 hours ago, Looney said:

Okay so this is off topic, but so annoying.  Last night I was watching THE SEVEN-UPS (1973) on Sling TV TCM ON DEMAND.  I had to stop for about forty minutes to do something else and when I came back the movie was gone. 

Did you see the Manhattan car chase at least? It's one that rivals the one in Bullit.

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8 hours ago, Looney said:

Okay so this is off topic, but so annoying.  Last night I was watching THE SEVEN-UPS (1973) on Sling TV TCM ON DEMAND.  I had to stop for about forty minutes to do something else and when I came back the movie was gone.  No joke.  It was suddenly no longer available to watch. WOW is that annoying!!!!! :angry:

And I am currently watching HOTEL ARTEMIS (2018).  It is pretty good after an hour in. ;)

 

This also happens with Spectrum On Demand movies.  Not sure whether it is the "provider," such as Showtime, or Spectrum that cuts it off.  Spectrum does note when offerings will end.  So, I guess we are warned.  But it is frustrating to have it happen while you have one "paused."

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