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9 minutes ago, Bronxgirl48 said:

I have to echo Hibi's answer -- it wasn't made clear WHY they hated each other.

For myself, I wouldn't make the assumption that Garfield's political views made him sympathetic to "fringe" members of society at that time.   Don't like to paint people with that broad a brush.  Just my opinion.  

The "why" I was addressing was "why would the production company allow the non-traditional partners of those two actors to be on the set?":   I'm sticking to my assumption that it was due to the more open,  I-don't-like persecution views that clearly held by Garfield,  who owned the production company that made Force of Evil.     (venues say the views of MGM suits when Gable demanded that George Cukor be replaced as director of GWTW because he was gay).

  

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42 minutes ago, Bronxgirl48 said:

I have to echo Hibi's answer -- it wasn't made clear WHY they hated each other.

For myself, I wouldn't make the assumption that Garfield's political views made him sympathetic to "fringe" members of society at that time.   Don't like to paint people with that broad a brush.  Just my opinion.  

Garfield was very sympathetic to the "little guy." One time (in NYC, I think) as he walked along the street with a friend, a man came up to him, greeted him as an old friend and asked him for some money. The actor reached into his pocket and gave him $200, for which the man was understandably very grateful. After the guy had walked away Garfield's friend turned to him and said, words to the effect, "Why'd you do that? You don't know the guy." Garfield shrugged it off, saying the guy looked like he needed the money.

That's the kind of softie tough guy John Garfield was. I can envision him being sympathetic to gay people, though I don't know it for a fact.

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19 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

The "why" I was addressing was "why would the production company allow the non-traditional partners of those two actors to be on the set?":   I'm sticking to my assumption that it was due to the more open,  I-don't-like persecution views that clearly held by Garfield,  who owned the production company that made Force of Evil.     (venues say the views of MGM suits when Gable demanded that George Cukor be replaced as director of GWTW because he was gay).

  

MGM had no problems with gay/ bisexual directors like Vincente Minnelli, or Charles Walters. Or gay Executives like David Lewis whose partner was the Frankenstein Director James Whale.

MGM had no problem with George Cukor either, considering all the films he had directed for them.

Clark Gable had a problem with George Cukor.

Reportedly when Gable first came to Hollywood as a down and out actor, he was hustling and Cukor employed him.  So Gable felt uncomfortable around the guy.

This was done for Gable because he was in an awkward situation in terms of his acting ability--

 being asked to cry in this role  and being pitted against  professional stage actors --

So he wanted his regular director Victor Fleming.

Plus he wasn't getting any additional salary to star in this blockbuster movie and that had himpissed off too.

In general, MGM had no problems with bisexual and gay directors. In the case of Vincente Minnelli, they nurtured and mentored him, recruiting him from Broadway, until he could fly on his own. He was completely a product of the MGM Arthur Freed Unit. And so was Director Charles Walters, who started out as a choreographer.

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Just opened the Nov. Now Playing and noticed a link for Noir Alley.  Nov. 30 showing The Mask of Dimitrios.  I had always thought this was a sand and sword movie (ha).

Kansas City Confidential is scheduled for Nov. 23 and that is a very good movie.

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20 minutes ago, TheCid said:

Just opened the Nov. Now Playing and noticed a link for Noir Alley.  Nov. 30 showing The Mask of Dimitrios.  I had always thought this was a sand and sword movie (ha).

Kansas City Confidential is scheduled for Nov. 23 and that is a very good movie.

Hard for me to pick which Payne noir I like more Kansas City Confidential or 99 River Street,  since both are fine, well made films.  

What I like about KCC is the supporting bad-guys;  Jack Elam, Lee Van Cleef,  and Neville Brand are all in fine form with each demonstrating their specific bad-boy persona.    Oh,  how fun bad-boys like this can be! 

The leads,  Payne,  Coleen Gray and Preston Foster keep things moving and I find this to be a well balanced noir; I.e. not too dark \ not too romantic.    

The Mask of Dimitrios is an OK film;  any film with Greenstreet and Lorre is worth watching but the most interesting character is Dimitrios,  well played by Zachary Scott.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Hard for me to pick which Payne noir I like more Kansas City Confidential or 99 River Street,  since both are fine, well made films.  

What I like about KCC is the supporting bad-guys;  Jack Elam, Lee Van Cleef,  and Neville Brand are all in fine form with each demonstrating their specific bad-boy persona.    Oh,  how fun bad-boys like this can be! 

The leads,  Payne,  Coleen Gray and Preston Foster keep things moving and I find this to be a well balanced noir; I.e. not too dark \ not too romantic.    

The Mask of Dimitrios is an OK film;  any film with Greenstreet and Lorre is worth watching but the most interesting character is Dimitrios,  well played by Zachary Scott.

 

 

I think the supporting cast is what really makes KCC.  I also like Coleen Gray and this was the first movie where I came to appreciate her.

The Mexico resort setting for part of KCC is a nice touch as well.

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21 minutes ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Hard for me to pick which Payne noir I like more Kansas City Confidential or 99 River Street,  since both are fine, well made films.  

What I like about KCC is the supporting bad-guys;  Jack Elam, Lee Van Cleef,  and Neville Brand are all in fine form with each demonstrating their specific bad-boy persona.    Oh,  how fun bad-boys like this can be! 

The leads,  Payne,  Coleen Gray and Preston Foster keep things moving and I find this to be a well balanced noir; I.e. not too dark \ not too romantic.    

The Mask of Dimitrios is an OK film;  any film with Greenstreet and Lorre is worth watching but the most interesting character is Dimitrios,  well played by Zachary Scott.

I'm looking forward to November's Noir Alley features.  There are 5 Saturdays in November! 

I first saw Coleen Gray in Nightmare Alley.  I think I've since seen her in 2 other films. I wish she had been a bigger star, I think she's very good in what I've seen her in.  I have Kansas City Confidential on my DVR, but I haven't watched it yet. I may delete it and record the Noir Alley one so I can have Eddie's commentary.

I also really liked The Mask of Dimitrios.  I also agree that Zachary Scott was good in this film.  I think Mildred Pierce was the first film I saw with Scott and I really liked him in this film. I've since seen him in some other films ('Dimitrios,' Flamingo Road, Born to Be Bad, Let's Make it Legal, and The Unfaithful)I think the more I see of him, the more I like him. 

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21 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Hard for me to pick which Payne noir I like more Kansas City Confidential or 99 River Street,  since both are fine, well made films.  

Not for me I like The Crooked Way (1949) better than both of them.

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Just a heads up for Film Noir fans. Motherless Brooklyn (2019) Wow very impressive Neo Retro Noir along the lines of Chinatown, but set in NYC. Highly recommend for Noir Lovers. With a great cast too boot. 9/10

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I was going to start a thread about Sweet Smell of Success, but i'll ask my question here instead. I've seen Sweet Smell of Success many times and I've always wondered and wonder what others think about the ending of the film.  Do you guys think Falco dies in the end or beaten up badly but survives, I'd appreciate some opinions, thanks.

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On 11/1/2019 at 11:59 AM, speedracer5 said:

I'm looking forward to November's Noir Alley features.  There are 5 Saturdays in November! 

I first saw Coleen Gray in Nightmare Alley.  I think I've since seen her in 2 other films. I wish she had been a bigger star, I think she's very good in what I've seen her in.  I have Kansas City Confidential on my DVR, but I haven't watched it yet. I may delete it and record the Noir Alley one so I can have Eddie's commentary.

I also really liked The Mask of Dimitrios.  I also agree that Zachary Scott was good in this film.  I think Mildred Pierce was the first film I saw with Scott and I really liked him in this film. I've since seen him in some other films ('Dimitrios,' Flamingo Road, Born to Be Bad, Let's Make it Legal, and The Unfaithful)I think the more I see of him, the more I like him. 

Count me in as a fan of "Kansas City Confidential" and "The Mask of Dimitrios" too.

"The Mask..." was Zachary Scott's big screen debut, and he did quite well in it.  I like Scott's versatility.  He can play the cad, the jilted party, or the stand-up guy people go to for good advice.  "Dimitrios" is such a cool movie that involves a mystery that traverses several different countries as it begins in Istanbul and works its way westward to Paris.  As mentioned before, any movie with Sidney Greenstreet and Peter Lorre is worth a look, as both men play so well off each other.  Faye Emerson and Steven Geray are also in it, as well as Florence Bates who does her usual fine work with a small role as a party hostess near the beginning of the film.  The one thing I didn't like about "The Mask of Dimitrios" was the ending, but I'm not going to comment on it now so I don't spoil it for those who haven't seen it or have seen it and have forgotten what happens at the end of the movie.

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15 hours ago, lavenderblue19 said:

I was going to start a thread about Sweet Smell of Success, but i'll ask my question here instead. I've seen Sweet Smell of Success many times and I've always wondered and wonder what others think about the ending of the film.  Do you guys think Falco dies in the end or beaten up badly but survives, I'd appreciate some opinions, thanks.

I agree, it's ambiguous. I like to think that he just gets a terrible beating. Even though Falco is demonstrated to be thoroughly contemptible, I still find him oddly sympathetic and don't want him to die.  He shows a tiny spark of decency near the end of the film; maybe he survives the beating and undergoes some kind of transformation. Just a thought, and I don't know if Clifford Odets (or Tony Curtis) would feel the same.

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Falco's a contemptible big city night creature, though no worse than many others to be found in this acidic film. And, yes, I can see his future: he will get a beating, so bad, in fact, that he will go into hiding, start wearing dresses and join an old girl band in Florida. Funny, these psychic images of him are so vivid I almost feel as if I've seen them.

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One of the reasons I've thought about Falco's outcome is, as he runs out of Hunsecker's apartment he says they can break all my bones, I'm still going to talk. Yes, I agree that he's probably badly beaten, not killed, but as MissW wrote the ending is ambiguous. Would we doubt that Hunsecker and his crooked cop were capable of murder, I don't think so. But just as you guys would rather believe Falco lives, I do too. Thanks for answering my question, I appreciate it.

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17 hours ago, lavenderblue19 said:

I was going to start a thread about Sweet Smell of Success, but i'll ask my question here instead. I've seen Sweet Smell of Success many times and I've always wondered and wonder what others think about the ending of the film.  Do you guys think Falco dies in the end or beaten up badly but survives, I'd appreciate some opinions, thanks.

I'll go along with just getting beaten to a pulp.  Kello, despite his tough-guy image, does seem to have a soft spot for Falco.  My guess is after recovering at the castle of his Faddah, Falco will follow the path laid out by Tom, until the years of wearing dresses mangles his mind so much he moves to Boston and starts r a p i n g and killing old ladies. 

Sepiatone

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23 minutes ago, lavenderblue19 said:

One of the reasons I've thought about Falco's outcome is, as he runs out of Hunsecker's apartment he says they can break all my bones, I'm still going to talk. Yes, I agree that he's probably badly beaten, not killed, but as MissW wrote the ending is ambiguous. Would we doubt that Hunsecker and his crooked cop were capable of murder, I don't think so. But just as you guys would rather believe Falco lives, I do too. Thanks for answering my question, I appreciate it.

Yeh but I still maintain life became a drag for Falco afterward.

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7 hours ago, TomJH said:

Yeh but I still maintain life became a drag for Falco afterward.

Wow, Tom, you're really pleased with your "Some Like it Hot" allusion and just don't want to let it go. And ok, yeah, it is kind of funny. Still, you're usually someone who likes discussing the kind of question lavender put here, about Falco in "Sweet Smell of Success", and whether he survived the tough cop's beating. It's not like you to not take a question like that seriously (I mean, after you've made you SLIH joke, of course.)

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I enjoyed "The Sweet Smell of Success" this time round more than the other times I've watched it. I found Eddie's intro comments quite interesting and even helpful, since I did not know there was so much tension on the set, especially the power struggles between Lancaster and director Mackendrick. I thought Eddie's suggestion that the bitterness on the set somehow transmuted into the film itself, adding to the general harsh feeling of the work, was really revelatory.

By the way, just to add to Eddie's mention about Alexander Mackendrick and his association with Ealing Studios...Mackendrick made several of the most famous of the Ealing comedies, including "Whiskey Galore" and "The Ladykillers". He also directed a much more obscure little gem with Ealing, a funny little oddball thing called "The Maggie". It's a really lovely, quirky little comedy that stars American Paul Douglas. I love the film. In fact, if I were ever a guest on TCM, I might suggest as a double bill "The Maggie", followed by "Local Hero" - which, come to think of it, features Burt Lancaster ! Full circle. Anyway, both these films are set in Scotland and both are about American "can do" know-how clashing up against the stubborn Scottish sensibility. They're both wonderful films, funny, offbeat, and moving. 

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1 hour ago, misswonderly3 said:

Wow, Tom, you're really pleased with your "Some Like it Hot" allusion and just don't want to let it go. And ok, yeah, it is kind of funny. Still, you're usually someone who likes discussing the kind of question lavender put here, about Falco in "Sweet Smell of Success", and whether he survived the tough cop's beating. It's not like you to not take a question like that seriously (I mean, after you've made you SLIH joke, of course.)

Sorry, MissW, but I was in a joking mood today. I gather you (lavenderblue, too, perhaps) wanted a more serious response but I figured there would be plenty of those coming from other posters (even though it looks like that didn't really turn out to be the case this time, at least so far).

It's not bad to throw in a little humour once in a while, even on this thread, though I know noir fans aren't much inclined to joke about their "dark underbelly of the city" films. Understandable, considering the films' subject matter, of course, even if the films can open themselves up for the occasional clever parody.

(By the way, maybe I did overdo it with the second joke).

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2 hours ago, TomJH said:

Sorry, MissW, but I was in a joking mood today. I gather you (lavenderblue, too, perhaps) wanted a more serious response but I figured there would be plenty of those coming from other posters (even though it looks like that didn't really turn out to be the case this time, at least so far).

It's not bad to throw in a little humour once in a while, even on this thread, though I know noir fans aren't much inclined to joke about their "dark underbelly of the city" films. Understandable, considering the films' subject matter, of course, even if the films can open themselves up for the occasional clever parody.

(By the way, maybe I did overdo it with the second joke).

Thanks for your response, Tom. As for taking Noir seriously (hey, the very fact that I capitalized "noir" shows how seriously I take it), I suppose many fans do; but not to the point where they lose their sense of humour. In fact, I don't know if you ever read any of comments I used to post here about this, but I've often thought of starting a thread titled "Noir Comedies" or something like that. I actually maintain that a lot of noirs are funny, or at least have a lot of comedic elements to them.

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THE SWEET AND SOUR SMELL OF SUCCESS

Two men, one older and cynical and the other younger and aspiring to cynicism, form a partnership to start a Chinese restaurant. Their niche market will be hard-edged people with sisters, journalists, and those with genuine cynicism credentials.

 

sweet-smell-of-success.jpg

"I know we can make this work. Focus on the sweet and sour, maybe a little

Szechuan. And you'll have to stop butting out your cigarettes in the chicken

balls."

(cribbed from the old "20th Century Vole" thread, from years ago.)

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I got a kick out of some of the over the top dialog, but the movie is so sleazily entertaining

that it doesn't matter too much. And Steve Dallas is not only a supposedly red commie rat

but the hepcat smokes weed too. OMG, that combo would set your average American's teeth 

on edge back in 1957. I don't think the fat cop would kill Falco. Just work him over and take

him down to the station and make the marijuana plant charge and maybe that old standby,

resisting arrest. Falco should have punched fat pig in the gut and taken off. Too timid. TSSOS

was on a month or so ago. I wonder if TCM had one of these deals where the movie must be

shown a certain number of times and so it was fit into the Noir Alley schedule.

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