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20 hours ago, Vautrin said:

I wonder if there was some padding involved as Welles always seems to wear some kind of jacket or overcoat

in the movie. Not that I'm discounting the possibility that Orson packed on a lot of pounds in that short a

period. 

From  imdb:Welles is wearing make-up throughout the film. For hours every night, they'd add pounds and pounds onto him, and use prosthetics for his face. He once said that he was late going to a dinner party at his house during the filming, and arrived with his make-up still on. A famous actress approached him when he entered and in all seriousness said: "Orson! You look wonderful!"

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2 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Gee, I never would've thought of that.  Good thing we have you here to  straighten people like me out.

Very interesting.  ElCid mentioned he had trouble with the plot, I had a bit of trouble myself.  The original opening gives us a much better picture of it, surprisingly so.  So Welles wanted to deliberately obscure the plot?  I agree with misswonderly3, why did he want to do that?  

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1 hour ago, Thompson said:

Very interesting.  ElCid mentioned he had trouble with the plot, I had a bit of trouble myself.  The original opening gives us a much better picture of it, surprisingly so.  So Welles wanted to deliberately obscure the plot?  I agree with misswonderly3, why did he want to do that?  

Thanks for agreeing with me about the original opening sequence;  I wonder how many others here first saw Touch of Evil with that version.  

However,  I'm not sure the opening bit is any better at clarifying the plot than the version shown the other day on Noir Alley  - apparently Welles' preferred version.  I like the other opening sequence version,  the one I posted here, simply because of its style.  It's more engaging, more fun  (if I can use that word for such a film) than the Welles' approved version.  What I mostly like about it is the music.   I love that music;  those bongo drums at the beginning, the horns...the whole piece creates a great sense of tension and suspense, which is what you want at the outset of a film like Touch of Evil.  I love the way the music kind of flows with the action we see -  the first time I saw this, I thought it was so cool   (admittedly I was a lot younger and I suppose more impressionable then.)

As for the plot,  I still can't figure it out.  As someone else here said  (I forgot who, offhand),  it's as hard to figure out as The Big Sleep.  And for me, like The Big Sleep,  I don't even try to understand the plot.  It's all about style.

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9 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

I would actually lean the other way, Casablanca is basically a love story, while  TTOTSM is a dark story about greed and Bogart is your typically alienated and obsessed Noir character. 

True, but some of the scenes in Casablanca have a noir look to them. Dobbs is a pretty normal guy, though one

can see hints of what is to come early in the movie. It's only after they strike gold that he becomes more and more

paranoid. There is also the fate aspect of Dobbs' unfortunate meeting up with gold hat and his companions. But I still

see TTOTSM more as an adventure and morality tale than a noir. Also it mostly takes place in  the great outdoors

and not in a gritty big city. A noir doesn't have to take place in an urban area, but that is the usual locale for them.

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You might be right about clarifying the plot.  Hindsight is closer to 20-20.  The original seemed to define Vargas and his role as policeman better but that could certainly be because I’d just seen the movie and figured out his role.  You are right about the music.  Important.  Plot is important too because that’s what moves the action forward.  Even if it’s complicated the viewer should be able to figure it out.  But I know what you mean — Out of the Past has always intrigued me but I really can’t tell you the plot.  All I can see are those ruby red lips of Jane Greer.

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6 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

Agreed.  Maybe the poster had it mixed up with "High Sierra",  which at least could be argued it's a noir.  Not "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" though.

Yes, there a number of movies that have a noirish element to them, but overall don't qualify as noir, at least

for me. Of course it's also a matter of individual judgement. High Sierra could certainly qualify as noir.

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6 hours ago, Hibi said:

It was a good one! It wasn't really funny what happened, but I had to laugh at their cluelessness.....

The premise certainly sounds entertaining. Web of Lies has many of the same sort of clueless people

doing stupid things that sadly get them into trouble, often fatally. 

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1 minute ago, Vautrin said:

The premise certainly sounds entertaining. Web of Lies has many of the same sort of clueless people

doing stupid things that sadly get them into trouble, often fatally. 

Luckily, in this case, no one got hurt except for some bruised egos......

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4 hours ago, nakano said:

From  imdb:Welles is wearing make-up throughout the film. For hours every night, they'd add pounds and pounds onto him, and use prosthetics for his face. He once said that he was late going to a dinner party at his house during the filming, and arrived with his make-up still on. A famous actress approached him when he entered and in all seriousness said: "Orson! You look wonderful!"

All the makeup certainly worked because it's hard to turn away from that landscape of a face even if

one would like to. I don't know about the dinner party story. Welles was something of a teller of tall

tales. 

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7 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

All the makeup certainly worked because it's hard to turn away from that landscape of a face even if

one would like to. I don't know about the dinner party story. Welles was something of a teller of tall

tales. 

That's for sure. He looked HIDEOUS!

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1 hour ago, Hibi said:

Luckily, in this case, no one got hurt except for some bruised egos......

That's good to know. Remember the FTN episode from a few weeks ago about the man in Harlem

who killed his two upstairs neighbors because he was in love with the woman? I looked it up on

the net. Most of it was accurate, but the woman was 62 years old and she looked about twenty

years younger on the show.  I believe it took place over a longer period of time than it seemed to do

on the program too, 

 

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A few other random  thoughts about Touch of Evil  (3 days later...I always seem to come late to this party.)

Again, the music. It's a great soundtrack, I just want to draw attention to that.  As I said, the main theme is very cool-sounding and full of tension, perfect for this movie.  (thanks, Henry Mancini.)

The plot:   whaaaa?   Well, as I mentioned above,  I don't really care that the plot is almost incomprehensible.  I could never figure out the connection between the young shoe-salesman who's married to the daughter of the millionaire who was killed ,  and the Grandi crime family.  I mean, that shoe -salesman doesn't even seem to know the Grandis.  Other times I've seen the film,  I kept trying to figure out what the connection was.  But now I think, there is no connection. The only reason "Uncle" Joe Grandi takes an interest in the case is so he can get Quinlan    to claim that Vargas   and his wife are "hooked"  on drugs (presumably  heroin),       hence that harrowing creepy motel room scene with poor Janet Leigh and the creeps.                                                                                                           

But come to think of it, even that doesn't make any sense.  I thought it did at the time I was watching it, but now I'm not so sure.

Poor Uncle Joe.  He was nasty, but he wasn't quite that nasty.  He didn't deserve that horrible end.  I mean, it even makes it clear that he didn't really want Janet Leigh to be injected with heroin    -  no, just sodium pentothal.  (  ??  !!  oh well, I'd take the latter over the former too.)

That infamous scene in the motel room.  Oooh, so creepy and disturbing.  Of course it has a lot of sexual violent undertones ;  the audience is set up to believe that poor Susan Vargas was raped, as well as shot up with heroin.  You find out later that she wasn't, but that doesn't make that scene any less horrible and frightening.   Also, come to think of it, what was the reason again why she didn't just go to the town where the investigation was happening with her husband?  It looked like there would have been some   place for her to stay there.  No reason.  It was just so the film could have the set-up of Vargas' wife being isolated and helpless with a gang of creeps planning to molest her  (one way or another.)

Speaking of that scene:  "I want to watch."   Very creepy, memorable  line.  I watched for Mercedes McCambridge to be credited at the end, but she isn't.  (Maybe she didn't want to be .  )   

Ok,  Charlton Heston's character's name:  Vargas.  Everyone here familiar with the pin-up artist, Alberto Vargas?  I've always thought it was some kind of in-joke that Heston's name was Vargas, since that means his wife is a Vargas girl.  I'm sure it's on purpose, there's at least one scene where Janet Leigh is lying around in a sexy "teddy", pointy breasts and all, looking just like a Vargas pin-up girl.

One more observation about Touch of Evil :   Anyone noticed how many times Vargas leaves his wife?  He's forever abandoning her, even after she's undergone the most traumatic experiences.  He keeps leaving her, even when she's pleading  "Don't leave me !"  He's always rushing off somewhere, to talk to Quinlan or Grandi or someone or other. He's always saying,  "I've got to go, darling, but don't worry, I'll be back, you'll be safe here."  But she isn't.  Poor Susan !  I imagine in real life, it would take years, hopefully with a good therapist, to get over the things she was put through.  But of course, this is a movie, so off she goes at the end with Vargas,  maybe she's finally going to get that chocolate soda.

                                                                                                                                                      

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Vautrin said:

That's good to know. Remember the FTN episode from a few weeks ago about the man in Harlem

who killed his two upstairs neighbors because he was in love with the woman? I looked it up on

the net. Most of it was accurate, but the woman was 62 years old and she looked about twenty

years younger on the show.  I believe it took place over a longer period of time than it seemed to do

on the program too, 

 

Yes, saw that one, and she looked A LOT younger on the show! LOL. Interesting on how they compare to the real life cases....That one was really awful. Sometimes the people bring it on themselves, but they didnt do anything to deserve THAT! Then he takes the coward's way out.

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2 hours ago, Hibi said:

That's for sure. He looked HIDEOUS!

Looked like one of those photos beamed back from the moon. Yikes.

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1 hour ago, Hibi said:

Yes, saw that one, and she looked A LOT younger on the show! LOL. Interesting on how they compare to the real life cases....That one was really awful. Sometimes the people bring it on themselves, but they didnt do anything to deserve THAT! Then he takes the coward's way out.

Her boyfriend or husband (I wasn't quite clear on which he was) was 78 which is still a pretty large age gap,

but nothing like it appeared to be. It became clear that the killer had mental health problems and likely made

up most of the things he complained about. Totally wacko.

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1 minute ago, Vautrin said:

Her boyfriend or husband (I wasn't quite clear on which he was) was 78 which is still a pretty large age gap,

but nothing like it appeared to be. It became clear that the killer had mental health problems and likely made

up most of the things he complained about. Totally wacko.

Yes and sad nothing was done about the guy.

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What a sleeper - They Live (not drive) by Night - Farley Granger and (wow!) Cathy O’Donnell.  Boy she’s got some sprezzatura !

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1 hour ago, Thompson said:

What a sleeper - They Live (not drive) by Night - Farley Granger and (wow!) Cathy O’Donnell.  Boy she’s got some sprezzatura !

I have seen this film a few times and I really like it;   Moving and sad,  it gets to me every time.     Nicholas Ray, in his directorial debut,  does a fine job,  as well as the many fine actors in the film.    In addition how can one not love a film where the main thug is named Chickamaw!   (Howard De Silva giving another fine performance before being blacklisted).     

And yes;  Cathy O'Donnell really makes an impact. 

FILM: They Live By Night (dir. Nicholas Ray) – Come To The Pedlar

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21 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

About Touch of Evil:  The first time I saw the film, it had a different opening, I think the one that Welles actually didn't like.  Eddie 'splained about this in his intro , and sure enough, we get a different opening few minutes,  I guess the one that Welles had actually wanted.

But, not that I'd ever dare suggest that I know better than Orson Welles,  but I don't understand why he preferred the version of the opening shown on Noir Alley the other day.  To me that other opening is one of the best things about "Touch of Evil".  It's got not only that famous long shot, but the great music to go with it.  You get a little of the music in the other "approved" version, but you don't get that theme continuing on along with the long take, like in the earlier version I saw and was so impressed with.

I found the version of the opening sequence,  the one I saw originally.  It knocked me out.  here it is:  (it's mainly the music that's different, in the version we saw on Noir Alley,  you don't get that great music all the way through the opening sequence.  It makes such a difference.)

I dunno, seems a lot more dramatic and noirish to me.  Wonder why Orson didn't want to go with that one?

I can understand Orson Welles's viewpoint with his preferred opening of the film. On the one hand one opening sequence, along with the famous tracking shot camerawork, is dominated by the Mancini musical score (with its sexy jazzy sound with the bongos, horns and saxophone) while Welles's preference, instead, was to capture the natural sounds of the street. The only music that the viewer hears in Welles's version is that heard as he accompanies Heston and Leigh in that walk down the street, from the radios of passing cars or, maybe, from some night spot in the vicinity. You even clearly hear the sounds of a group of goats on that night street, sounds largely drowned out by the Mancini score in the other opening version.

Now you can have your own preference, Miss W, which you clearly do, largely thanks to Mancini's terrific musical sound, and that's fine. But you also said that you didn't understand why Welles preferred the non-Mancini intro. From the viewpoint of Welles making a stylish exploration of a sleazy small town I can understand why he may have had a preference for the natural sounds of the street in his opening instead.

I gather, and I may be wrong, that the Mancini music in the opening may have been a studio decision inflicted upon Orson's film, and not a part of his original vision.

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3 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

A few other random  thoughts about Touch of Evil  (3 days later...I always seem to come late to this party.)

Again, the music. It's a great soundtrack, I just want to draw attention to that.  As I said, the main theme is very cool-sounding and full of tension, perfect for this movie.  (thanks, Henry Mancini.)

The plot:   whaaaa?   Well, as I mentioned above,  I don't really care that the plot is almost incomprehensible.  I could never figure out the connection between the young shoe-salesman who's married to the daughter of the millionaire who was killed ,  and the Grandi crime family.  I mean, that shoe -salesman doesn't even seem to know the Grandis.  Other times I've seen the film,  I kept trying to figure out what the connection was.  But now I think, there is no connection. The only reason "Uncle" Joe Grandi takes an interest in the case is so he can get Quinlan    to claim that Vargas   and his wife are "hooked"  on drugs (presumably  heroin),       hence that harrowing creepy motel room scene with poor Janet Leigh and the creeps.                                                                                                           

But come to think of it, even that doesn't make any sense.  I thought it did at the time I was watching it, but now I'm not so sure.

Poor Uncle Joe.  He was nasty, but he wasn't quite that nasty.  He didn't deserve that horrible end.  I mean, it even makes it clear that he didn't really want Janet Leigh to be injected with heroin    -  no, just sodium pentothal.  (  ??  !!  oh well, I'd take the latter over the former too.)

That infamous scene in the motel room.  Oooh, so creepy and disturbing.  Of course it has a lot of sexual violent undertones ;  the audience is set up to believe that poor Susan Vargas was raped, as well as shot up with heroin.  You find out later that she wasn't, but that doesn't make that scene any less horrible and frightening.   Also, come to think of it, what was the reason again why she didn't just go to the town where the investigation was happening with her husband?  It looked like there would have been some   place for her to stay there.  No reason.  It was just so the film could have the set-up of Vargas' wife being isolated and helpless with a gang of creeps planning to molest her  (one way or another.)

Speaking of that scene:  "I want to watch."   Very creepy, memorable  line.  I watched for Mercedes McCambridge to be credited at the end, but she isn't.  (Maybe she didn't want to be .  )   

Ok,  Charlton Heston's character's name:  Vargas.  Everyone here familiar with the pin-up artist, Alberto Vargas?  I've always thought it was some kind of in-joke that Heston's name was Vargas, since that means his wife is a Vargas girl.  I'm sure it's on purpose, there's at least one scene where Janet Leigh is lying around in a sexy "teddy", pointy breasts and all, looking just like a Vargas pin-up girl.

One more observation about Touch of Evil :   Anyone noticed how many times Vargas leaves his wife?  He's forever abandoning her, even after she's undergone the most traumatic experiences.  He keeps leaving her, even when she's pleading  "Don't leave me !"  He's always rushing off somewhere, to talk to Quinlan or Grandi or someone or other. He's always saying,  "I've got to go, darling, but don't worry, I'll be back, you'll be safe here."  But she isn't.  Poor Susan !  I imagine in real life, it would take years, hopefully with a good therapist, to get over the things she was put through.  But of course, this is a movie, so off she goes at the end with Vargas,  maybe she's finally going to get that chocolate soda.

                                                                                                                                                      

 

 

You may be late to the party misswonderly3, but you're always fashionable! 😉

I once found some Vargas pin-up girl playing cards in my father's stash (and boy, was Mom mad at me when I found them!).

I was the one who mentioned "Touch of Evil's" plot being as convoluted and confusing as "The Big Sleep's", although I finally figured out the deal with "The Big Sleep" after multiple viewings.  I could eventually figure out "Touch of Evil" too (I think!).  I too love the music in the first-cut opening credits of "Touch of Evil", and the music overall is excellent in setting the mood for the picture.  Whenever I hear the player piano going for scenes with Marlene Dieterich, it's as distinctive as the zither music that's played in "The Third Man".  When you hear it, you know which movie is on the screen, even if you're in another room of the house.

Did Eddie make a boo-boo when he said Eva Gabor was in "Touch of Evil"?  I don't remember seeing her.  I was able to pick out Mercedes McCambridge, and I must say, she looked more menacing in leather than she did in a long skirt in "Johnny Guitar"!  As for Janet Leigh's character, she deserves more than a chocolate soda for what she went through.  It must have been a whirlwind romance with Miguel Vargas, because if he treated her like this when they were dating, I don't think she would have married him to play second fiddle to his badge, right? 

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1 hour ago, midwestan said:

You may be late to the party misswonderly3, but you're always fashionable! 😉

I once found some Vargas pin-up girl playing cards in my father's stash (and boy, was Mom mad at me when I found them!).

I was the one who mentioned "Touch of Evil's" plot being as convoluted and confusing as "The Big Sleep's", although I finally figured out the deal with "The Big Sleep" after multiple viewings.  I could eventually figure out "Touch of Evil" too (I think!).  I too love the music in the first-cut opening credits of "Touch of Evil", and the music overall is excellent in setting the mood for the picture.  Whenever I hear the player piano going for scenes with Marlene Dieterich, it's as distinctive as the zither music that's played in "The Third Man".  When you hear it, you know which movie is on the screen, even if you're in another room of the house.

Did Eddie make a boo-boo when he said Eva Gabor was in "Touch of Evil"?  I don't remember seeing her.  I was able to pick out Mercedes McCambridge, and I must say, she looked more menacing in leather than she did in a long skirt in "Johnny Guitar"!  As for Janet Leigh's character, she deserves more than a chocolate soda for what she went through.  It must have been a whirlwind romance with Miguel Vargas, because if he treated her like this when they were dating, I don't think she would have married him to play second fiddle to his badge, right? 

It was another Gabor in that film:  Zsa Zsa played a strip club owner/manager.

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6 hours ago, Hibi said:

Yes and sad nothing was done about the guy.

If I remember it correctly they wouldn't call the police. Maybe they figured that would only make

him worse or that the cops wouldn't do anything. But I would have taken that chance. 

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I think the more times one watches Touch of Evil the easier it is to figure out the plot, which

is confusing on the first go round. Like Miss W I was amazed at how Heston would just leave 

his wife and not come back for hours. Well there he goes again. It's not like he just went down

to the ice machine to get some ice. As the advice columnists say That might be a red flag. 

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9 hours ago, Vautrin said:

If I remember it correctly they wouldn't call the police. Maybe they figured that would only make

him worse or that the cops wouldn't do anything. But I would have taken that chance. 

Yeah, everyone knew he was nuts, but no one wanted to get involved.

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