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16 hours ago, Shank Asu said:

Yes I read it correctly, I just don't agree.  Chartier has his opinion and I don't take it as the word of God.  I've seen plenty of film theory professors change their opinions on things after open discussions, so I just take that as his opinion and not fact.  I'm not new to noir but don't call myself a expert.  I just don't see how The Lost Weekend is noir.  Sorry. 

Sorry for you . Tell us why you don't think it is a film noir, I'm curious.

Chartier and Frank got the whole phenomena rolling. 

We are all waiting on pins and needles.

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43 minutes ago, cigarjoe said:

And speaking of Thaxter did you notice when she grabs Leigh's small automatic at the house she doesn't put it in the draw she opens but in her purse, wonder if that was going to be another plot point that never was developed or got discarded.

Nah, I just chalked that up to the idea of her maybe being a kleptomanic.  ;)

OR maybe to the idea that without the gun, Thaxter was removing any possibility that Leigh could or would shoot Ryan the next time they might encounter each other.

(...yeah, actually it's the second one here, CJ)

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11 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

And speaking of Thaxter did you notice when she grabs Leigh's small automatic at the house she doesn't put it in the draw she opens but in her purse, wonder if that was going to be another plot point that never was developed or got discarded.

Yeah, I think she was prepared for the worst! LOL.

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11 hours ago, Dargo said:

Nah, I just chalked that up to the idea of her maybe being a kleptomanic.  ;)

OR maybe to the idea that without the gun, Thaxter was removing any possibility that Leigh could or would shoot Ryan the next time they might encounter each other.

(...yeah, actually it's the second one here, CJ)

Or she was prepared to use it on Ryan if he tried to shoot Heflin......or as leverage.

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16 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

Sorry for you . Tell us why you don't think it is a film noir, I'm curious.

Chartier and Frank got the whole phenomena rolling. 

We are all waiting on pins and needles.

Mainly because it isn't a crime drama.  It's been a few years since I've seen it last so sure there's probably some elements i'm missing but from what i do recall, other than some seedy locations, it doesn't really check the boxes for me.  i realize there's no strict definition for noir, and i'm not really bothered if people think it is or isn't a noir film, but i am kind of surprised how serious some are taking it.  🙂

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On 5/31/2021 at 7:31 AM, cigarjoe said:

Jean-Pierre Chartier – the other French critic who used the term “film noir” – wrote Americans Also Make Noir Films for La Révue du Cinéma in November of 1946. In that article he discusses three films: “Murder My Sweet,” “Double Indemnity” and “The Lost Weekend.”" (William Ahern)

 

On 5/31/2021 at 1:36 PM, Dargo said:

Yes, BUT CJ, did this frenchie dude ALSO mention anything at all about how Bela Lugosi wasn't in any of the movies you just mentioned here EITHER??? 

 

What do you mean Bela Lugosi didn't appear in any of those films, Dargo?

TCM on Twitter: "Ray Milland in Billy Wilder's THE LOST WEEKEND ('45)  #TCMEssentials… "

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15 minutes ago, Shank Asu said:

Mainly because it isn't a crime drama.  It's been a few years since I've seen it last so sure there's probably some elements i'm missing but from what i do recall, other than some seedy locations, it doesn't really check the boxes for me.  i realize there's no strict definition for noir, and i'm not really bothered if people think it is or isn't a noir film, but i am kind of surprised how serious some are taking it.  🙂

Crime drama - that is where you are mistaken. 

Of the original Noir -  Pierre Chenal’s “Crime and Punishment” (1935), Jean Renoir’s “The Lower Depths” (Les Bas-fonds) (1936), Julien Duvivier’s “Pépé le Moko” (1937), Jeff Musso’s “The Puritan” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Port of Shadows” (Le Quai des brumes) (1938), Jean Renoir’s “La Bête Humaine” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Hôtel du Nord” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Le Jour se lève” (Daybreak) 1939, and Pierre Chenal’s “Le Dernier Tournant” (1939), none of them are  films about private detectives hard-boiled or otherwise and none of them are police procedurals or stories where the police – or any member of governmental society – are seen as heroic. The films are about the working class and the hustlers that Iive off them.  There isn’t a single crime film – as that term is conventionally used – in the list. “Pépé  Moko,” a film that centers on a fugitive criminal hiding in the Casbah of Algiers, is a film about memory and desire more than anything else and its suicide ending has to do with facing what the character believes he has lost and not the possibility of incarceration. 

Hollywood Classic Noir were mainly about cops  & robbers Crime because the censors from The Legion of Decency and the MPPC wouldn't let them make any films about taboo subjects or immoral charaters.

 

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1 hour ago, cigarjoe said:

Crime drama - that is where you are mistaken. 

Of the original Noir -  Pierre Chenal’s “Crime and Punishment” (1935), Jean Renoir’s “The Lower Depths” (Les Bas-fonds) (1936), Julien Duvivier’s “Pépé le Moko” (1937), Jeff Musso’s “The Puritan” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Port of Shadows” (Le Quai des brumes) (1938), Jean Renoir’s “La Bête Humaine” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Hôtel du Nord” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Le Jour se lève” (Daybreak) 1939, and Pierre Chenal’s “Le Dernier Tournant” (1939), none of them are  films about private detectives hard-boiled or otherwise and none of them are police procedurals or stories where the police – or any member of governmental society – are seen as heroic. The films are about the working class and the hustlers that Iive off them.  There isn’t a single crime film – as that term is conventionally used – in the list. “Pépé  Moko,” a film that centers on a fugitive criminal hiding in the Casbah of Algiers, is a film about memory and desire more than anything else and its suicide ending has to do with facing what the character believes he has lost and not the possibility of incarceration. 

Hollywood Classic Noir were mainly about cops  & robbers Crime because the censors from The Legion of Decency and the MPPC wouldn't let them make any films about taboo subjects or immoral charaters.

 

Pierre Chenal’s “Crime and Punishment” (1935), Jean Renoir’s “The Lower Depths” (Les Bas-fonds) (1936), Julien Duvivier’s “Pépé le Moko” (1937), Jeff Musso’s “The Puritan” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Port of Shadows” (Le Quai des brumes) (1938), Jean Renoir’s “La Bête Humaine” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Hôtel du Nord” (1938), Marcel Carné’s “Le Jour se lève” (Daybreak) 1939, and Pierre Chenal’s “Le Dernier Tournant” (1939) are not noirs  😄

Joking!

 Of those films that i have seen, they do revolve around criminals/gangsters.  I do understand that cynical protaganists or an anti-hero are a common trope for noirs and don't necessarily have to be about crime (still the biggest box to tick for me though), but with The Lost Weekend still don't see it.  Might as well call Leaving Las Vegas a noir film. 

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7 hours ago, Hibi said:

Or she was prepared to use it on Ryan if he tried to shoot Heflin......or as leverage.

I dunno, Hibi. Seems to me she was so hooked on Ryan for whatever reason, that the idea of shooting him for that reason seems unlikely.

(...but then again, that's not a bad assumption, perhaps)

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2 hours ago, Shank Asu said:

Leaving Las Vegas

It is a Neo Noir Film.

Noir is basially a pan generic dark story told in a visually stylistic way. You can have, besides Crime Noir, Drama Noir, SiFi Noir, Western Noir, Exploitation Noir, Experiental Noir, etc., etc.

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Leaving Las Vegas is the absolute worst movie I’ve ever seen.  That actor, that relative of the director, that Nicholas Cage is the absolute worst actor that has ever stepped foot on screen. He’s even worse than Bruce Dern.
 

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10 minutes ago, Thompson said:

Leaving Las Vegas is the absolute worst movie I’ve ever seen.  That actor, that relative of the director, that Nicholas Cage is the absolute worst actor that has ever stepped foot on screen. He’s even worse than Bruce Dern.
 

He finishes his drinks though

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55 minutes ago, Thompson said:

Leaving Las Vegas is the absolute worst movie I’ve ever seen.  That actor, that relative of the director, that Nicholas Cage is the absolute worst actor that has ever stepped foot on screen. He’s even worse than Bruce Dern.
 

Yeah, but I hear there's STILL a lot of people in Berkeley who love him, anyway!

(...boy, I sure hope I don't have to explain this one again)

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6 hours ago, Thompson said:

Leaving Las Vegas is the absolute worst movie I’ve ever seen.  That actor, that relative of the director, that Nicholas Cage is the absolute worst actor that has ever stepped foot on screen. He’s even worse than Bruce Dern.
 

I do like the film (love the book), and other than this, i might agree with you on Cage.

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5 hours ago, Dargo said:

Yeah, but I hear there's STILL a lot of people in Berkeley who love him, anyway!

(...boy, I sure hope I don't have to explain this one again)

I'm all ears... i'm new around here.

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6 hours ago, cigarjoe said:

It is a Neo Noir Film.

Noir is basially a pan generic dark story told in a visually stylistic way. You can have, besides Crime Noir, Drama Noir, SiFi Noir, Western Noir, Exploitation Noir, Experiental Noir, etc., etc.

I like this definition.  I am now curious thought what sci-fi noir films are there?

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1 hour ago, Shank Asu said:

I'm all ears... i'm new around here.

Hi Shank Asu. In regards to my above Bruce Dern comment,  I'll now copy and paste an offering of mine in the recent "Great Hollywood Screen Psychopaths" thread which should explain it.

It's a story I once heard Dern himself tell on some talk show years ago, and which I found very amusing both then and to this day:

Quote

Supposedly the conversation that took place between John Wayne and Bruce Dern (my nominee here) just before the following scene was shot for the film The Cowboys:

"Ya know they're gonna hate you throughout this country once this movie is shown, don't ya?!"

--"Yeah, but they're gonna love me in Berkeley!"

John Wayne killed by Bruce Dern (The Cowboys / 1972) - YouTube

(...btw, Wayne supposedly then laughed heartily, turned to the cast and crew and said, "See?! THIS is why young Dern here gets so much work! He's smart!")

 

(...btw, welcome to the boards)

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4 hours ago, Shank Asu said:

I like this definition.  I am now curious thought what sci-fi noir films are there?

The Man in Half Moon Street (1945), Decoy (1946), The Day The Earth Stood Still (1951), Invasion of The Body Snatchers (1956), Manchurian Candidate (The)(1962), Alphaville (1965), Seconds (1966), The Psychic Killer (1975), Blade Runner (1982), Delicatessen (1991), Dark City (1998).

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Well I guess Bruce Dern is okay . . .   in westerns.  I was remembering him in that God Awful movie with Jane Fonda, Coming Home.

Watch out for these boys, Shank Asu, they know their stuff and are expert at boxing.  The gals are even tougher.  Learn lots of inside dope here, I’m glad I happened aboard,

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2 minutes ago, Thompson said:

Well I guess Bruce Dern is okay . . .   in westerns.  I was remembering him in that God Awful movie with Jane Fonda, Coming Home.

Watch out for these boys, Shank Asu, they know their stuff and are expert at boxing.  The gals are even tougher.  Learn lots of inside dope here, I’m glad I happened aboard,

Bruce Dern makes a great villian. He would be great in noirs. To me, the villian I think of most in the classic era is Dan Duryea. One thing Dern has over Duryea though is that Duryea, to the best of my knowledge, didn't kill John Wayne.

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10 hours ago, Dargo said:

Hi Shank Asu. In regards to my above Bruce Dern comment,  I'll now copy and paste an offering of mine in the recent "Great Hollywood Screen Psychopaths" thread which should explain it.

It's a story I once heard Dern himself tell on some talk show years ago, and which I found very amusing both then and to this day:

(...btw, welcome to the boards)

Wow, I don’t remember that at all!  Dern killing Wayne.  Memory is a weird animal.

 

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Or maybe I never watched it through, which is more likely because come to think of it I’ve never watched a John Wayne movie through.

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3 minutes ago, Thompson said:

Or maybe I never watched it through, which is more likely because come to think of it I’ve never watched a John Wayne movie through.

Yeah, Bruce Dern got the privilege of possible being the first to kill a John Wayne character in a movie, The Cowboys. In those years, imagine the villiany attached to Dern as he was tasked in violating the great John Wayne whose characters could never be killed. I have seen Dern talk about the experience and the comments to him from Wayne in how hated Dern would then likely be. I think Dern also mentioned Wayne wanting Dern to really rough up the Duke, but like mentioned above, my memory on that part is a bit fuzzy.

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39 minutes ago, Stallion said:

Yeah, Bruce Dern got the privilege of possible being the first to kill a John Wayne character in a movie, The Cowboys. In those years, imagine the villiany attached to Dern as he was tasked in violating the great John Wayne whose characters could never be killed. I have seen Dern talk about the experience and the comments to him from Wayne in how hated Dern would then likely be. I think Dern also mentioned Wayne wanting Dern to really rough up the Duke, but like mentioned above, my memory on that part is a bit fuzzy.

It's not just that Dern killed Wayne but how his character did it in the film.

Wayne's indestructible superman presence on the screen is very comforting for his fans. They didn't like being shocked and discomforted.

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