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17 hours ago, Vautrin said:

 

Maybe contrary to outward appearances Pinkie really had a heavy  load  of  guilt  on his  heart  and thus he sank like a rock. 

 

17 hours ago, Thompson said:

He sank like a rock.

He sank like a Brighton Rock.

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4 hours ago, ElCid said:

Are these assumptions on known from the movie or the book?  People learn to swim well after childhood and swimming lessons often are not needed.

Just saying this is a loose end that today would have been tied up with a search, even a brief one, or a body.  Falling from a pier is not like falling from a ship in the middle of the ocean.

Kim Novak told me something different.

 

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6 hours ago, ElCid said:

Are these assumptions on known from the movie or the book?  People learn to swim well after childhood and swimming lessons often are not needed.

Just saying this is a loose end that today would have been tied up with a search, even a brief one, or a body.  Falling from a pier is not like falling from a ship in the middle of the ocean.

I believe that it is much more unusual to learn to swim in Britain,  at least back then,  than it is in the States and Canada.  North America has , besides all the ocean ports,  an abundance of rivers and lakes.  It is quite a normal thing,  even in some ways a safety precaution,  for parents to make sure their kids have swimming lessons, or at least learn to swim somehow,  even if it's just to dog paddle.

However,  from my  ( admittedly limited) knowledge of English customs in the 20th century,  I think it would have been exceptional for someone of Pinkie's social status and class to have learned how to swim.  Also,  the fall from the pier was quite a long one, he may have been killed just from the fall.

However,  it looks as though ,  in the book,  he encountered a horrible and painful death from the acid.   Thanks to UW for quoting that passage.

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It was the fear in Pinkie’a eyes, the palpable fear.  Richard Attenborough’s acting in the film didn’t thrill me, but that scene did. I would imagine it’s quite hard for an actor to show  real legitimate fear.  He drowned, sunk like a stone with acid all over his face and was eaten by a shark later on on top of it.  I only hope the shark didn’t suffer any damage from that razor.

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43 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

I believe that it is much more unusual to learn to swim in Britain,  at least back then,  than it is in the States and Canada.  North America has , besides all the ocean ports,  an abundance of rivers and lakes.  It is quite a normal thing,  even in some ways a safety precaution,  for parents to make sure their kids have swimming lessons, or at least learn to swim somehow,  even if it's just to dog paddle.

However,  from my  ( admittedly limited) knowledge of English customs in the 20th century,  I think it would have been exceptional for someone of Pinkie's social status and class to have learned how to swim.  Also,  the fall from the pier was quite a long one, he may have been killed just from the fall.

However,  it looks as though ,  in the book,  he encountered an horrific and painful death from the acid.   Thanks to UW for quoting that passage.

i don't know- i'd expect someone who lives at an ocean town to be able to swim.  where i live in cornwall, every kid is surfing by the time they're 6.

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25 minutes ago, Shank Asu said:

i don't know- i'd expect someone who lives at an ocean town to be able to swim.  where i live in cornwall, every kid is surfing by the time they're 6.

So,  I'm just curious....your user info states  "Location:  Portland  OR /  Cornwall,  England".   There are several  "Portlands" in the world...is it Portland,  Oregon,  in which case I assume you're an American currently living in Britain  ??   Or are you a Brit and actually do reside in Cornwall,  England ?  Sorry,  It's not my intention to be aggressively nosey about this,  but I 'm just wondering if you're English or American or both.

Anyway,  I could be wrong about the swimming thing.  But Pinkie and his gang are actually from London,  where I don't imagine much recreational swimming went on,  either in the Thames or the sea.  

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Pinkie's death in the film is laughable. He splashes into the water, everyone runs over, looks for a couple of seconds. He doesn't surface, and the music tells you he's dead. People dive into water all the time and stay submerged for longer than that shot in the film. The film handles it in a silly way, but it's typical movie shorthand; "Trust us, he's dead. No need to watch for a minute or two, no need to break out the spotlights or drag the water. Let's move on."

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40 minutes ago, misswonderly3 said:

So,  I'm just curious....your user info states  "Location:  Portland  OR /  Cornwall,  England".   There are several  "Portlands" in the world...is it Portland,  Oregon,  in which case I assume you're an American currently living in Britain  ??   Or are you a Brit and actually do reside in Cornwall,  England ?  Sorry,  It's not my intention to be aggressively nosey about this,  but I 'm just wondering if you're English or American or both.

Anyway,  I could be wrong about the swimming thing.  But Pinkie and his gang are actually from London,  where I don't imagine much recreational swimming went on,  either in the Thames or the sea.  

I'm an American married to a Brit and living in both Portland, Oregon and in Cornwall, England.  Although Portland has gone crazy so I might just start telling people i only live in England 😉  You may be right about not many British people being swimmers back then.  I don't think anyone would swim in the Thames but there's always been swimming pools here.

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Everybody was glad Pinkie was splashing around in the water yelling for help, well maybe not yelling, but who gives a darn about saving such a guy?  Usually the anti-hero has some redeeming quality and I thought Pinkie did because I thought he had feelings for Rose.  It was shocking that phonograph recording.  I didn’t expect that.  That’s the cruelest thing I’ve ever seen.  Pinkie has no redeeming qualities at all. He died in terror because he could not swim and  he sank like a rock to the bottom of the sea and was eaten by two sharks.

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4 minutes ago, Thompson said:

...he sank like a rock to the bottom of the sea and was eaten by two sharks.

Later, one of the sharks had to visit the shark doctor because of bad indigestion, and the doc told the shark to eat only nice people for a while.

By the way, I would never think of Pinkie Brown as an anti-hero. He was just a psychopathic criminal.

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2 hours ago, misswonderly3 said:

 

He sank like a Brighton Rock.

Not sure about the candy. Perhaps he hit his noggin on  some submerged  WWII scrap.

I had to grin a bit about  the ending. As Rose plays the skipped record  the camera moves up to a medium close up on the

crucifix on the  wall, as if  God put his finger on the record.

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A bit off topic but i remember the first time my wife took me to Brighton and walking on the pier i saw a Helter Skelter.  So after decades of speculation and people like Charles Manson proclaiming the Beatles song was about race wars in the apocalypse, turns out it was just a silly song about a slide.  The White Album really is just a bunch of silly nursery rhymes isn't it.

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1 hour ago, laffite said:

Surely it has something to do with Vertigo. Though Kim didn't jump from a pier.

You're correct that my reference to Kim Novak was related to  Vertigo,    but I guess my recall of that scene,  as well as what I read about Hitch making her do multiple takes of the jump into the water,  were off.    

 

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51 minutes ago, Shank Asu said:

A bit off topic but i remember the first time my wife took me to Brighton and walking on the pier i saw a Helter Skelter.  So after decades of speculation and people like Charles Manson proclaiming the Beatles song was about race wars in the apocalypse, turns out it was just a silly song about a slide.  The White Album really is just a bunch of silly nursery rhymes isn't it.

"Helter Skelter" according to Merriam-Webster, is defined as "undue haste, confusion, disorder."  And going over the lyrics of the tune, there's NOTHING AT ALL about wars of any kind.  Now, 

I never knew the song was about a slide, but knew the term "helter-skelter"  referred to "disorder" and felt the music of the song was meant to illustrate that.  But as Manson never was playing with a full deck,  what HE heard could have been anything.   But.....

Can't really think of which "nursery rhyme"  BACK IN THE USSR comes from.  ;) 

Sepiatone

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48 minutes ago, JamesJazGuitar said:

You're correct that my reference to Kim Novak was related to  Vertigo,    but I guess my recall of that scene,  as well as what I read about Hitch making her do multiple takes of the jump into the water,  were off.    

 

Why on earth did he need so many takes? The actual jump is hardly visible. Maybe he had a particular way he wanted her arms flailing. I mean this (forgive the unwieldy photo shopping) is about a near as we are for the jump.

pFTigmE.jpg?1

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3 hours ago, Shank Asu said:

A bit off topic but i remember the first time my wife took me to Brighton and walking on the pier i saw a Helter Skelter.  So after decades of speculation and people like Charles Manson proclaiming the Beatles song was about race wars in the apocalypse, turns out it was just a silly song about a slide.  The White Album really is just a bunch of silly nursery rhymes isn't it.

Sure, the best of lyrics don’t mean anything at all.  They just sound right, rhyme right.  All these Dylan people trying to make some kind of meaning out of his songs.  There is no literal meaning, it’s all how the words are put together in their specific order.  

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MissW — PBS is running Ken Burns Baseball.  It’s the fourth inning that just aired.  Super.  All about Babe Ruth.  Early afternoon. I caught the third inning segment yesterday so it seems they will be airing inning number five tomorrow.  Just a heads up.  🕰 one o’clock  central time.

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4 hours ago, Shank Asu said:

A bit off topic but i remember the first time my wife took me to Brighton and walking on the pier i saw a Helter Skelter.  So after decades of speculation and people like Charles Manson proclaiming the Beatles song was about race wars in the apocalypse, turns out it was just a silly song about a slide.  The White Album really is just a bunch of silly nursery rhymes isn't it.

Maybe, but for silly nursery  rhymes,  they're pretty darn  good.   Come to think of it,  I love nursery rhymes.

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3 hours ago, Sepiatone said:

"Helter Skelter" according to Merriam-Webster, is defined as "undue haste, confusion, disorder."  And going over the lyrics of the tune, there's NOTHING AT ALL about wars of any kind.  Now, 

I never knew the song was about a slide, but knew the term "helter-skelter"  referred to "disorder" and felt the music of the song was meant to illustrate that.  But as Manson never was playing with a full deck,  what HE heard could have been anything.   But....

Huh.   I always thought "Helter Skelter" was about sex.  

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3 hours ago, laffite said:

Why on earth did he need so many takes? The actual jump is hardly visible. Maybe he had a particular way he wanted her arms flailing. I mean this (forgive the unwieldy photo shopping) is about a near as we are for the jump.

pFTigmE.jpg?1

To show her who's boss. Power trip.

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30 minutes ago, Thompson said:

MissW — PBS is running Ken Burns Baseball.  It’s the fourth inning that just aired.  Super.  All about Babe Ruth.  Early afternoon. I caught the third inning segment yesterday so it seems they will be airing inning number five tomorrow.  Just a heads up.  🕰 one o’clock  central time.

Thanks for the heads up about that, Thompson.  I like Ken Burns documentaries.  Have you seen the one about the history of jazz?

I think I might have seen a couple of episodes of the baseball series,  but never seen all nine innings.

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