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I think it's long been out of print, but if any of you can get your hands on a paper or Kindle edition of CLEAN BREAK by Lionel White(some copies of which might've been re-titled THE KILLING to cash in on the Kubrick film) I REALLY recommend it. 

Everything that comes before the ending in THE KILLING might actually be pretty solid ( I remember some of the scenes between Marie Windsor and Elisha Cook are lit FABULOUSLY- but I just hate that ending so much. It ruins everything about the movie for me.

 

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2 hours ago, CaveGirl said:

I couldn't say it better, CJ. Go with the original to anyone who's seen neither.

Actually, anyone who hasn't seen both should see them and make up their own minds.  They are actually different movies, although Narrow Margin (1990) is based on The Narrow Margin (1952), but has some very significant  changes.  Narrow Margin is not an action movie at all-it's a suspense movie.  Terminator is an action movie.  One helicopter crashing sequence does not make an action movie.  But then aren't most mystery and noir movies suspense movies as well?  NM does have more action than The Narrow Margin, but that is the difference between a "B" movie from 1952 and an "A" movie made in 1990.  They had more money and time.

As I said before, I like The Narrow Margin much more, but because it is a different type movie.  Guess you could say TNM is classic Film Noir, whereas NM is a suspense movie based on a noir movie.

 

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2 hours ago, ChristineHoard said:

I think Eddie inferred it  (THE KILLING) was coming up in the future when he was talking about Marie Windsor.  I believe Jim Thompson (great writer) had a hand in the screenplay.

I checked the Noir Alley website, and The Killing is currently listed on the schedule there for Sunday, November 25th.  (Will probably be on late Saturday evening the 24th as well.)  Looking forward to it!

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2 hours ago, LornaHansonForbes said:

I think it's long been out of print, but if any of you can get your hands on a paper or Kindle edition of CLEAN BREAK by Lionel White(some copies of which might've been re-titled THE KILLING to cash in on the Kubrick film) I REALLY recommend it. 

Everything that comes before the ending in THE KILLING might actually be pretty solid ( I remember some of the scenes between Marie Windsor and Elisha Cook are lit FABULOUSLY- but I just hate that ending so much. It ruins everything about the movie for me.

 

Thanks. I think I'd like to read this book.  When I bought and read A LONELY PLACE, based on posters' comments, I LOVED it and have since shared it with two girlfriends who also LOVED it.

P.S.  I just ordered this through Amazon.  Temporarily out of stock but they'll ship it when they get it (I wanted a paperback, not Kindle version).  Thanks again.

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I admit I haven't read the book it's based on, but I love Kubrick's THE KILLING, loved everything about it, including the ending.

(SPOILER ALERT) You think at least Sterling Hayden and his girl will make off with the money and get away with it and live 'happily' ever after, but not to be....all it took was one dog and some heavy wind to literally blow their plans away.

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4 minutes ago, Bethluvsfilms said:

I admit I haven't read the book it's based on, but I love Kubrick's THE KILLING, loved everything about it, including the ending.

(SPOILER ALERT) You think at least Sterling Hayden and his girl will make off with the money and get away with it and live 'happily' ever after, but not to be....all it took was one dog and some heavy wind to literally blow their plans away.

I know.  (SPOILER ALERT)  I always root for Sterling to get away and live "happily" ever after in THE KILLING and ASPHALT JUNGLE but alas...

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On 5/6/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheCid said:

Will have to disagree with you on this one.  Not everybody can the main characters in a movie.  Walsh and Walsh had good roles and plenty of screen time.  

As for too many implausible and predictable train action sequences, can you be more specific?  I have ridden passenger trains and did not find the sequences to be that far out, considering it is an action movie.  Actually more realistic than The Narrow Margin.  Also, you may not have noticed but at least in NM, they used the same train or type train.  TNM begins with a long, luxury train which at times is shown as a very short secondary train.

The Narrow Margin is the better movie, but Narrow Margin rates much higher than 5/10.

Yes, the 'continuity' of the train footage was lacking. I'm pretty sure they departed Chicago and showed a PRR locomotive. Not sure of the intermediate trains, but the last couple of shots showed SP locomotives in the 'Daylight train' paint scheme. I checked the Rand McNally Railroad Atlas of 1927 and if the route the train took was exclusively on AT&SF trackage. I guess the railroad wouldn't co-operate or RKO didn't want to spring for actual footage along the route.

One nice touch was the station agent getting the 'flimsy' via bamboo hoop.

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10 hours ago, revrnd said:

Yes, the 'continuity' of the train footage was lacking. I'm pretty sure they departed Chicago and showed a PRR locomotive. Not sure of the intermediate trains, but the last couple of shots showed SP locomotives in the 'Daylight train' paint scheme. I checked the Rand McNally Railroad Atlas of 1927 and if the route the train took was exclusively on AT&SF trackage. I guess the railroad wouldn't co-operate or RKO didn't want to spring for actual footage along the route.

One nice touch was the station agent getting the 'flimsy' via bamboo hoop.

I've got lots of railroad books and in the past checked out the trains and routes in The Narrow Margin.  Not sure why they wanted the station scene at La Junta, but it is on the Santa Fe.

As for the PRR locomotive, that shows up a lot in movies from that era.  Stock footage.  There is a Falcon movie where they are on a train in Florida and it is being pulled by a PRR steam engine.  While railroads did have "run through" agreements whereby engines would travel all the way, this was generally done with diesel engines.  The steamers required way too much maintenance which was better done on the "home" roads.

I've got a reprint of Rand McNally's 1948 Handy Railroad Atlas of the United States.  Very handy for seeing what railroads actually operated where during this era.  I think the ending or beginning of one of the Thin Man movies shows them on a named Southern Pacific passenger train.  Not impossible, but would have required a few extra days travel as opposed to taking a more direct train between NYC, Chicago and LA.

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13 hours ago, TheCid said:

I've got lots of railroad books and in the past checked out the trains and routes in The Narrow Margin.  Not sure why they wanted the station scene at La Junta, but it is on the Santa Fe.

As for the PRR locomotive, that shows up a lot in movies from that era.  Stock footage.  There is a Falcon movie where they are on a train in Florida and it is being pulled by a PRR steam engine.  While railroads did have "run through" agreements whereby engines would travel all the way, this was generally done with diesel engines.  The steamers required way too much maintenance which was better done on the "home" roads.

I've got a reprint of Rand McNally's 1948 Handy Railroad Atlas of the United States.  Very handy for seeing what railroads actually operated where during this era.  I think the ending or beginning of one of the Thin Man movies shows them on a named Southern Pacific passenger train.  Not impossible, but would have required a few extra days travel as opposed to taking a more direct train between NYC, Chicago and LA.

I was thinking of this too when I posted. Looking at the atlas I have, it would've been plausible to start the journey with CB&Q power. I didn't check the atlas closely but I'm pretty sure Illinois would've been at the western edge of NYC territory. Even thru all the mergers and break up of Conrail, the former CCC&StL yard in Indianapolis is still known as Big Four Yard.

I'm aware of a Lehigh Valley passenger train that ran between Toronto, Ontario and New York City, via Buffalo. I'm pretty sure their equipment ran thru all the way to Toronto, not sure on which railway's trackage though, Canadian National or Canadian Pacific.

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15 hours ago, revrnd said:

I was thinking of this too when I posted. Looking at the atlas I have, it would've been plausible to start the journey with CB&Q power. I didn't check the atlas closely but I'm pretty sure Illinois would've been at the western edge of NYC territory. Even thru all the mergers and break up of Conrail, the former CCC&StL yard in Indianapolis is still known as Big Four Yard.

I'm aware of a Lehigh Valley passenger train that ran between Toronto, Ontario and New York City, via Buffalo. I'm pretty sure their equipment ran thru all the way to Toronto, not sure on which railway's trackage though, Canadian National or Canadian Pacific.

Possible but not likely as the CB&Q would have gone sort of due west toward Omaha or Minneapolis and then to West Coast.  Their premier train was the California Zephyr, which was a combined CB&Q, DRG&W, WP train.  Santa Fe was one of few western railroads that operated all the way to Chicago.  NYC and PA pretty much ended in Chicago, except for a few trains going to St. Louis.  

Ironically, US only had one actual transcontinental train - The Sunset Limited (this is one depicted in the Thin Man movie).  It ran from Jacksonville FL to Los Angeles via New Orleans.  You could board in Jacksonville and then not get off until you got to LA.  All other trains had to change in Chicago, NO, St. Louis or Kansas City.  Even under Amtrak you still have to change trains.

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On 5/6/2018 at 5:08 PM, TheCid said:

That's the way I remember it.  There was suspicion that McGraw could be crooked.

Yes and he IS Tempted. He crosses out the bribe guy when he sends that wire to check on the "bad" guys which was to show he was debating on taking the bribe.........

 

As to Marie's fate (in another post) I read somewhere (or maybe read here) that a scene had been shot of her being taken from the train, but it was cut for some reason......I agree it's too bad that his partner being tainted was not left in the movie. Would've added to his indecision.......

 

As to the remake. I thought it was ok. But they made changes to the plot I didnt like (Anne Archer's character) and it was too long.

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26 minutes ago, ChristineHoard said:

Caged has some really terrific performances and (SPOILER) the transformation of Eleanor Parker has to be seen to be believed.  It's heartbreaking yet inevitable given her experiences in the slammer. 

In the last few years I went through a lot of Noir DVDs. So I in advertently came across this movie.  And Caged is a real tour-de-force for women. I had always wondered where Hope Emerson got her reputation.  Now I know. And Lee Patrick's versatility was shocking.

After all these years that movie remains a real Sucker Punch. 

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2 minutes ago, Princess of Tap said:

In the last few years I went through a lot of Noir DVDs. So I in advertently came across this movie.  And Caged is a real tour-de-force for women. I had always wondered where Hope Emerson got her reputation.  Now I know. And Lee Patrick's versatility was shocking.

After all these years that movie remains a real Sucker Punch. 

Hope has a scene in ADAM'S RIB where she lifts up Spencer Tracy.  So many memorable women in CAGED.  Viewers will recognize a lot of them.

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13 hours ago, ChristineHoard said:

Caged has some really terrific performances and (SPOILER) the transformation of Eleanor Parker has to be seen to be believed.  It's heartbreaking yet inevitable given her experiences in the slammer. 

So agree with this. CAGED, IMO,  is the most realistic portrayal of a woman slowly being transformed and changed into a harder and more cynical gal once she leaves the joint than she was when she entered it.

Parker is just so believable in it too. She makes you forget that she would go on many years later to play the sly Baroness in THE SOUND OF MUSIC.

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I think I'm the one poster here who isn't s huge fan of CAGED. I don't think it's bad, but it hasn't had the impact on me that it has on others, I see it a bit more on the Horatio Alger side of "realness" in storytelling - but the acting is GREAT. My personal pick for best performance is Betty Garde as Kitty Stark. 

 

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Hope Emerson was great at playing tough women characters.  E.g.  as a masseuse-conspirator in the noir Cry of the City (1948),  or as a mail-order bride in Westward the Women (1952).

She also did some fine T.V. work  and had a regular role as well, as "Mother", on the detective series Peter Gunn (1958), for which she received an Emmy nomination.     

Caged being the highlight of her career. 

 

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I know Caged is probably supposed to be a serious look at the problems in

women's prisons, but to me it's one of the campiest noirs around, much

thanks to Hope Emerson's character. I think last week Eddie said people

should be munching on some popcorn while watching it. Wouldn't a box of

assorted chocolates and a few old movie magazines be more appropriate

companions.

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3 hours ago, Vautrin said:

I know Caged is probably supposed to be a serious look at the problems in

women's prisons, but to me it's one of the campiest noirs around, much

thanks to Hope Emerson's character. I think last week Eddie said people

should be munching on some popcorn while watching it. Wouldn't a box of

assorted chocolates and a few old movie magazines be more appropriate

companions.

Indeed one of the campiest noirs (but all women prison films have some degree of camp).   Still the acting is fine and Parker's performance and transformation are enough to recommend the film.  

(the main thing missing from the film is Mercedes Cambridge!).  

 

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3 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said:

Indeed one of the campiest noirs (but all women prison films have some degree of camp).   Still the acting is fine and Parker's performance and transformation are enough to recommend the film.  

(the main thing missing from the film is Mercedes Cambridge!).  

 

These kinds of films do lend themselves to campiness, and this one in particular.

One can still view it straight up as most of the original audience likely did or one

can appreciate the camp aspects of it as a modern audience probably does. Either

way it's a well done movie with good performances. 

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I think Eddie Muller did a great job on the intro and outro of Caged.  Really explained a lot and that added to my enjoyment and appreciation of the movie.

Ironically I think the cast was far better than all the "stars" that were originally considered for it.  Sometimes "star power" gets in the way of telling a great story.

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Eddie gave CAGED a good sell, as always.

I stayed for some of it, it's a film I've seen all of and parts of a lot, and it's a film that always seems to get a conversation started.

for the record, i think it's the best directing work JOHN CROMWELL ever did- although there are quite a few films of his where I think his direction have been better. (all apologies, and his son JAMES is a terrific actor.)

i don't dislike it at all, it IS entertaining, but I don't take it too seriously for two reasons: 1. the slightly Dickensian "laying it on with a trowel" elements of the various travails our Noble Heroine endures and 2. I take issue with Eleanor Parker's performance.

that second one  is gonna cheese some people off, i think, as PARKER is often mentioned as part of a triad of epic performances given by ACTRESSES in 1950- the other two being GLORIA SWANSON in SUNSET BLVD and BETTE DAVIS in ALL ABOUT EVE, some have suggested she should have won for her work in this; and Lord help me, but (involuntarily) I serve eyebrow at this.

to be honest with you, Eleanor's work in this film is the sort of thing i would expect from a young MARGO CHANNING.

While her costars tear into their parts with rewarding results and a lot of realism, PARKER gives FACES- wounded fawn, earnest, demure, jejuene- she's doing Jane Wyman in JOHNNY BELINDA (minus the jazz hands) and the story deserves someone (besides Agnes Moorehead) who is COMING FROM A REAL PLACE to counter the insanity of all the other parts- Parker is giving me Drama School at near every minute, AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN SHE ISN'T STILL SOLID AND VERY GOOD IN PARTS (ironically, she plays the most challenging scenes perfectly, it's the "day-to-day" bits where her performance falls short), but overall, I think someone less HOLLYWOOD in the part (CATHY DRISCOLL?) would've been a better choice...

(of course, I also think JUDY HOLIDAY as BILLIE DAWN as the lead in CAGED would've been pretty fun to see too.)

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On 5/12/2018 at 12:12 AM, ChristineHoard said:

Hope has a scene in ADAM'S RIB where she lifts up Spencer Tracy.  So many memorable women in CAGED.  Viewers will recognize a lot of them.

Yes, that scene is hilarious!

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