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Jim Crow Confederate Monuments Go Down in America


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It warms the heart to see Detroit near or at the top, depending on the chart. An American tradition.

 

I was surprised both NYC and Miami weren't on the lists.

 

Yea,  I was surprised not to see NYC on the list, especially after they stopped Stop-and-frisk.    While I found this practice to be a violation of a citizen's rights such practices can be effective.  

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Yea,  I was surprised not to see NYC on the list, especially after they stopped Stop-and-frisk.    While I found this practice to be a violation of a citizen's rights such practices can be effective.  

 

Yeah, like voter suppression. 

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It warms the heart to see Detroit near or at the top, depending on the chart. An American tradition.

 

I was surprised both NYC and Miami weren't on the lists.

I can just see the satirical headlines now--Former Murder Capitals of

America Work Hard To Get Back To Number One. Detroit was once known

as the murder capital of America, as was D.C. I'm guessing that was in

relation to murder rate, not the greatest number of murders. Articles

on Chicago often point out that NYC, despite being much more populous,

has fewer murders. Stop and frisk in NYC was not very effective, as

most of the people who were stopped and frisked were doing nothing

criminal.

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I can just see the satirical headlines now--Former Murder Capitals of

America Work Hard To Get Back To Number One. Detroit was once known

as the murder capital of America, as was D.C. I'm guessing that was in

relation to murder rate, not the greatest number of murders. Articles

on Chicago often point out that NYC, despite being much more populous,

has fewer murders. Stop and frisk in NYC was not very effective, as

most of the people who were stopped and frisked were doing nothing

criminal.

Kansas City is right underneath Chicago on that list-- in fact very close percentage-wise.

 

But I never see any information on Kansas City night after night on the national news. What's that all about?

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Kansas City is right underneath Chicago on that list-- in fact very close percentage-wise.

 

But I never see any information on Kansas City night after night on the national news. What's that all about?

that's right! and doan forget the funny part.

 

most of these fatalities are african-american.

 

causal effect:  other african-americans.

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what is needed in these great metropolitan areas is overwhelming police force long overdue for decades...but liberal political correctness won't allow for it so the slaughter continues unabated

 

that's a pretty high price to put on political correctness methodologies going uninterrupted...

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what is needed in these great metropolitan areas is overwhelming police force long overdue for decades...but liberal political correctness won't allow for it so the slaughter continues unabated

 

that's a pretty high price to put on political correctness methodologies going uninterrupted...

 

Did I miss something? I thought Trump said on January 20th that: “The American carnage stops right here, right now.” 

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Kansas City is right underneath Chicago on that list-- in fact very close percentage-wise.

 

But I never see any information on Kansas City night after night on the national news. What's that all about?

Though Kansas City is close to Chicago in terms of murder rate, it is

far behind Chicago in the total number of murders. I think that's why

the focus is on Chicago--raw numbers. I really don't see many stories

about murder in Chicago on the ABC Nightly News. Everybody knows about

the sad facts.

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I am a native of Jacksonville and graduated from Andrew Jackson High; our crosstown rival was Robert E. Lee High. They are the oldest ones in town dating from the last century.  Our middle school was Kirby-Smith.

 

Okay, Nathan Bedford Forrest High was changed to Northwest a few years ago because the all-White neighborhood of the1960s had become the all-Black of the 2010s.  Since I've read that Forrest routinely shot all Black soldiers he captured and co-founded the ****, I can understand that.

 

We also had Confederate Park at the north of downtown complete with a stature similar to the ones in many other Southern communities.  The last time I was up there, two years ago, I was told that it's now called Springfield Park after the neighborhood. (Yes, there's a movement to remove one from the Hillsborough County Courthouse grounds and rename Lee Elementary in another white-to-black area.)

 

Would you suggest the entire city and both schools be renamed?  We could return to Cowsford, the city's original name until 1822 after Jackson became the first territorial governor. (We were a big cattle town and some of the stockyards are still around).  How about Jackson, Mississippi or Leesburg, FL? 

 

Where does it end?  Do we force removal of headstones with Confederate flags or other symbols from graves?  That slavery was wrong is a given and the succession documents of the Confederate states and its constitution all "justified" it but there's more to it than that.  Rightly or wrongly the Southern men fought with courage and honor-as did the Northerners-because they thought they were doing to the federal government what the 13 original states had to England.  Can't we recognize the individuals and abhor the cause? 

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I am a native of Jacksonville and graduated from Andrew Jackson High; our crosstown rival was Robert E. Lee High. They are the oldest ones in town dating from the last century.  Our middle school was Kirby-Smith.

 

Okay, Nathan Bedford Forrest High was changed to Northwest a few years ago because the all-White neighborhood of the1960s had become the all-Black of the 2010s.  Since I've read that Forrest routinely shot all Black soldiers he captured and co-founded the ****, I can understand that.

 

We also had Confederate Park at the north of downtown complete with a stature similar to the ones in many other Southern communities.  The last time I was up there, two years ago, I was told that it's now called Springfield Park after the neighborhood. (Yes, there's a movement to remove one from the Hillsborough County Courthouse grounds and rename Lee Elementary in another white-to-black area.)

 

Would you suggest the entire city and both schools be renamed?  We could return to Cowsford, the city's original name until 1822 after Jackson became the first territorial governor. (We were a big cattle town and some of the stockyards are still around).  How about Jackson, Mississippi or Leesburg, FL? 

 

Where does it end?  Do we force removal of headstones with Confederate flags or other symbols from graves?  That slavery was wrong is a given and the succession documents of the Confederate states and its constitution all "justified" it but there's more to it than that.  Rightly or wrongly the Southern men fought with courage and honor-as did the Northerners-because they thought they were doing to the federal government what the 13 original states had to England.  Can't we recognize the individuals and abhor the cause? 

My college alma mater would have to be abolished.  Many colleges in the South that predate the Civil War have connections to slavery or slave owners.  Even those founded after the Civil War have connections.  One major university is this area is built on land originally owned by a prominent, vehement slave owner.

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I am a native of Jacksonville and graduated from Andrew Jackson High; our crosstown rival was Robert E. Lee High. They are the oldest ones in town dating from the last century.  Our middle school was Kirby-Smith.

 

Okay, Nathan Bedford Forrest High was changed to Northwest a few years ago because the all-White neighborhood of the1960s had become the all-Black of the 2010s.  Since I've read that Forrest routinely shot all Black soldiers he captured and co-founded the ****, I can understand that.

 

We also had Confederate Park at the north of downtown complete with a stature similar to the ones in many other Southern communities.  The last time I was up there, two years ago, I was told that it's now called Springfield Park after the neighborhood. (Yes, there's a movement to remove one from the Hillsborough County Courthouse grounds and rename Lee Elementary in another white-to-black area.)

 

Would you suggest the entire city and both schools be renamed?  We could return to Cowsford, the city's original name until 1822 after Jackson became the first territorial governor. (We were a big cattle town and some of the stockyards are still around).  How about Jackson, Mississippi or Leesburg, FL? 

 

Where does it end?  Do we force removal of headstones with Confederate flags or other symbols from graves?  That slavery was wrong is a given and the succession documents of the Confederate states and its constitution all "justified" it but there's more to it than that.  Rightly or wrongly the Southern men fought with courage and honor-as did the Northerners-because they thought they were doing to the federal government what the 13 original states had to England.  Can't we recognize the individuals and abhor the cause? 

 

It is up to the citizens of the town if they wish to change the name of parks or remove monuments that are on public (City owned) property.     Outsiders should NOT decide these things but if City leaders do then that is their choice.   City residences can vote these leaders out of office if they disagree with their decisions.

 

As for headstones; those are NOT city property and it would be unconstitutional under the 1st amendment for the government to demand they be removed or tampered.   

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It is up to the citizens of the town if they wish to change the name of parks or remove monuments that are on public (City owned) property.     Outsiders should NOT decide these things but if City leaders do then that is their choice.   City residences can vote these leaders out of office if they disagree with their decisions.

 

As for headstones; those are NOT city property and it would be unconstitutional under the 1st amendment for the government to demand they be removed or tampered.   

terrific! liberals respect gravestones. :lol:

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It is up to the citizens of the town if they wish to change the name of parks or remove monuments that are on public (City owned) property.     Outsiders should NOT decide these things but if City leaders do then that is their choice.   City residences can vote these leaders out of office if they disagree with their decisions.

 

As for headstones; those are NOT city property and it would be unconstitutional under the 1st amendment for the government to demand they be removed or tampered.   

Not necessarily so.  

In S.C., it is up to the state legislature and I believe the same in some other states as to naming parks or roads, removing statues, etc.

Most (maybe all) "city" parks, streets and facilities are built and maintained with county, state and federal money that far exceeds what the "cities" provide.

When I was on city council, we obtained two "state" grants for over $500,000 to renovate the town square and surronding areas. This was actually federal money that was a pass through via the state.  The county provided $100,000 as a match on behalf of the city.  The city itself provided nothing.

We also obtained county and state funds for parks and other facilities, with the city providing 10%, if that.

 

One aspect is that cities, school districts, counties and so forth legally are subdivisions of the state.  Therefore, the states can control them as much as they wish, to include abolishing them.  Not sure how each state's constitution handles it, but within federal law the states rule within their borders.

 

As for the headstones and statues, especially those for Confederate soldiers, sailors and government officials, many are located in city owned cemetaries.  

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When I was on city council...

 

Foghorn_Leghorn_Shocked_Picture.jpg

 

"Boy, I say Boy! How on God's green earth did a liberal like Y'ALL ever getcher self

EEE-lected in a good God-fearin' conservative state like South Carolina, HUH Boy?!"

 

(..."I asked ya a question here, Boy!")

 

;)

 

LOL

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Not necessarily so.  

In S.C., it is up to the state legislature and I believe the same in some other states as to naming parks or roads, removing statues, etc.

Most (maybe all) "city" parks, streets and facilities are built and maintained with county, state and federal money that far exceeds what the "cities" provide.

When I was on city council, we obtained two "state" grants for over $500,000 to renovate the town square and surronding areas. This was actually federal money that was a pass through via the state.  The county provided $100,000 as a match on behalf of the city.  The city itself provided nothing.

We also obtained county and state funds for parks and other facilities, with the city providing 10%, if that.

 

One aspect is that cities, school districts, counties and so forth legally are subdivisions of the state.  Therefore, the states can control them as much as they wish, to include abolishing them.  Not sure how each state's constitution handles it, but within federal law the states rule within their borders.

 

As for the headstones and statues, especially those for Confederate soldiers, sailors and government officials, many are located in city owned cemetaries.  

 

I should have said that it SHOULD BE up to the local citizens of the entity (City, County,  State) that own or manage the public property,   instead of implying it always was.  

 

You make a great point that higher level entries (e.g. state over county,  county over city) have power as defined by the state's constitution over these public lands as well as the city \ county in general.    So I guess what I'm saying is that I wish state lawmakers wouldn't use their power to dictate what is or is not on city or county property.     E.g.  I believe Mississippi state lawmakers passed a law preventing the removal of Confederate monuments to ensure what is going on in New Orleans doesn't happen in any city in their state.   

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I should have said that it SHOULD BE up to the local citizens of the entity (City, County,  State) that own or manage the public property,   instead of implying it always was.  

 

You make a great point that higher level entries (e.g. state over county,  county over city) have power as defined by the state's constitution over these public lands as well as the city \ county in general.    So I guess what I'm saying is that I wish state lawmakers wouldn't use their power to dictate what is or is not on city or county property.     E.g.  I believe Mississippi state lawmakers passed a law preventing the removal of Confederate monuments to ensure what is going on in New Orleans doesn't happen in any city in their state.   

James, this is the fly in the ointment of democracy as we practice it.

If a "superior" government could not "dictate" to a lower one, we would still have segregated schools in the South and African Americans would not have the right to vote.

Democracy is messy.

Not saying that the governments closest to the people or the situation should not rule, but sometimes they are more interested in what is politically correct or expedient depending upon the times.

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but sometimes they are more interested in what is politically correct or expedient depending upon the times.

and maybe to some that is where a soft kind of tyranny begins.

 

and softness can eventually harden.

 

"yes, I guess that's the danger." -spencer tracy, bad day at black rock

 

:)

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Another great story on the ugly history of the Confederate heritage from

The Atlantic--

 

 

" The True History of the South Is Not Being Erased:

 

Taking Down Confederate Monuments Helps Confront The Past, Not Obscure It"

 

 

 

-by Garrett Epps,

 

June 11, 2017/ theatlantic.com

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Another great story on the ugly history of the Confederate heritage from

The Atlantic--

 

 

" The True History of the South Is Not Being Erased:

 

Taking Down Confederate Monuments Helps Confront The Past, Not Obscure It"

 

 

 

-by Garrett Epps,

 

June 11, 2017/ theatlantic.com

but has it affected the daily chicago black on black homicide rate yet? :huh:

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but has it affected the daily chicago black on black homicide rate yet? :huh:

 

Do I have to quote Trump's "American Carnage" declaration again? He said on January 20th that it stopped "‘right here and...right now." You don't think he lied, do you?  :ph34r:

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Do I have to quote Trump's "American Carnage" declaration again? He said on January 20th that it stopped "‘right here and...right now." You don't think he lied, do you?  :ph34r:

 

Come on,  you don't really want the Feds to get MORE involved with local (city) crime,  do you?

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Come on,  you don't really want the Feds to get involved with local (city) crime,  do you?

They already are.  That's why local PD's have tanks and heavy arms.  The Feds are probably more involved than we realize.

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They already are.  That's why local PD's have tanks and heavy arms.  The Feds are probably more involved than we realize.

 

Ok,  I should have asked him,  if he wanted the Feds to be MORE involved in addressing city crime.

 

The overall point by Nip was that progressives are much more interested in scoring political points (e.g. by removing monuments),  than they are actually addressing the core issue (e.g. the high murder rate in many African-American communities). 

 

Of course Trump made a bogus promise when running for office that his administration would stop the carnage by address local crime in a heads-on manner.   But I wonder if progressive really want Trump to take action since in most cases it would mean taking away power from local,  mostly Dem,  politicians.   E.g. If the Feds took over the Chicago police department.

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Another great story on the ugly history of the Confederate heritage from

The Atlantic--

 

 

" The True History of the South Is Not Being Erased:

 

Taking Down Confederate Monuments Helps Confront The Past, Not Obscure It"

 

 

 

-by Garrett Epps,

 

June 11, 2017/ theatlantic.com

The print edition of The Atlantic has an article on Richard Spencer

the alt right kook.

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