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MissGoddess

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Personally, I was rather fond of Cathy O'Donnell and Farley Granger in "They Live By Night".

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> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

>

> Dix was in a hurry to pick up your ring! And I thought you were a romantic. What

> a shame.

 

He was NOT. What ring stores are open at night? fiddle dee dee.

 

What a fibber.

 

InALonelyPlace-14.jpg?t=1238216211

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> {quote:title=route66 wrote:}{quote}

> Personally, I was rather fond of Cathy O'Donnell and Farley Granger in "They Live By Night".

 

Oh that was also a great movie, r66. I loved both of them, they made a great couple even though you knew they were going down the wrong path. It's kind of what makes great noir, I suppose.

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I?ve just been ?skimming? through the posts in this here Noir Gallery about ?Shadow of a Doubt? and ?In A Lonely Place.? Interesting. But I see that I shall not get the full flavor of your thoughts unless I read between the lines, pick up every nuanced movie reference. So I shall have to go back to the beginning of your discussion. From what I see right now, MissGoddess, Rickspade and of course our mighty Beowulf aka FrankGrimes will take a reader (willing to NOT interrupt) through the twists and turns of two great films. Funny, I didn?t think of ?Shadow...? being a noir thriller. But silly me, it?s Hitchcock, of course. And, again, it?s Hitch putting his stamp on Thornton Wilder. Absolutely fascinating! Again, just on this first pass I want to pick out something that FrankGrimes (aka Mr. Boring Bizzy Hands) writes. And I quote:

 

?Uncle Charlie is a hider, a coward. He hides behind his various masks. The real Uncle Charlie is hateful. He doesn't give a darn about anyone but himself and his own sick pleasures. For him to enjoy life, he must put on masks and harm others. He's trying to fool people into believing he's a good, upstanding person. Those who KNOW Uncle Charlie, KNOW the TRUTH. Most people cannot see Uncle Charlie, even when he's staring them in the face. Ohhh, they will tell you they see just perfectly, but they are wrong. They are blind.?

 

This is such a very apt description of Joseph Cotten?s character. And let's give credit to the Master, Alfred Hitchcock, for knowing human nature and all its foibles. But I have one minor point of disagreement in your statement, FrankieG. May I? Thank you. I frankly think Uncle Charlie is extremelself-loathing. THAT is why he is so hateful.

 

Oh...let me pull out two more quotes:

 

?...Coincidentally, I just finished watching a movie that made me think a lot of ?Shadow of a Doubt? and how it must be to suddenly feel suspicious that the one you love more than all others could be a killer.? - MissGoddess

 

Ma?am in the Gloria Grahame thread you?ll find a wonderful discussion of ?In A Lonely Place.? You might give that a gander. But that sudden suspicion must be unsettling, indeed. Sometimes too big to ignore...

 

This brings to mind Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" when she says: "I'm not going to be ignored, Dan!" She's pretty much saying to Michael Douglas' character that he cannot ignore the problem. And boy, is she a problem. (Why would he stray from the lovely Anne Archer? But I digress).

 

"I?ll keep my eyes open to see if there are any Charlie Oakley?s lurking around who have 'charmed' the local populace but may appear, at least to this ex-Brooklynite, of committing some real mayhem, although I admit at my age I don?t see as well as I used to.? - Rickspade

 

Truer words were never spoken Mr. Spade. In fact, I subscribe to the old saying: ?THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE.? So sad...so true...so current.

 

I might not have anything to add to folks after I read this thread thoroughly, but you don?t need me interrupting and disrupting your wonderful flow of conversation. In fact, you can always put me on , but if I think of something pertinent to add before the topic grows cold, I?ll do it. Both ?In A Lonely Place? and ?Shadow of A Doubt? are among my favorite films. Both attempt to unmask The Maniac. Ive always totally loved the wholesomeness of Teresa Wright (and have enjoyed her in many of her films) and as for Double G (Gloria Grahame)...well I?ve written reams and reams about her performances already.

 

So now, I thank you all (you too JackFavell and Rohanaka) in advance for what I?m sure will be a great read. Aaah, let me settle down for breakfast and TCM City.

 

P.S. Mr.Spade, where in Brooklyn makes you an ex??

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I?ve just been ?skimming? through the posts in this here Noir Gallery about ?Shadow of a Doubt? and ?In A Lonely Place.? Interesting. But I see that I shall not get the full flavor of your thoughts unless I read between the lines, pick up every nuanced movie reference. So I shall have to go back to the beginning of your discussion. From what I see right now, MissGoddess, Rickspade and of course our mighty Beowulf aka FrankGrimes will take a reader (willing to NOT interrupt) through the twists and turns of two great films. Funny, I didn?t think of ?Shadow...? being a noir thriller. But silly me, it?s Hitchcock, of course. And, again, it?s Hitch putting his stamp on Thornton Wilder. Absolutely fascinating! Again, just on this first pass I want to pick out something that FrankGrimes (aka Mr. Boring Bizzy Hands) writes. And I quote:

 

?Uncle Charlie is a hider, a coward. He hides behind his various masks. The real Uncle Charlie is hateful. He doesn't give a darn about anyone but himself and his own sick pleasures. For him to enjoy life, he must put on masks and harm others. He's trying to fool people into believing he's a good, upstanding person. Those who KNOW Uncle Charlie, KNOW the TRUTH. Most people cannot see Uncle Charlie, even when he's staring them in the face. Ohhh, they will tell you they see just perfectly, but they are wrong. They are blind.?

 

This is such a very apt description of Joseph Cotten?s character. And let's give credit to the Master, Alfred Hitchcock, for knowing human nature and all its foibles. But I have one minor point of disagreement in your statement, FrankieG. May I? Thank you. I frankly think Uncle Charlie is extremely self-loathing. THAT is why he is so hateful. It's very obvious.

 

Oh...let me pull out two more quotes:

 

?...Coincidentally, I just finished watching a movie that made me think a lot of ?Shadow of a Doubt? and how it must be to suddenly feel suspicious that the one you love more than all others could be a killer.? - MissGoddess

 

Ma?am in the Gloria Grahame thread you?ll find a wonderful discussion of ?In A Lonely Place.? You might give that a gander. But that sudden suspicion must be unsettling, indeed. Sometimes too big to ignore...

 

This brings to mind Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" when she says: "I'm not going to be ignored, Dan!" She's pretty much saying to Michael Douglas' character that he cannot ignore the problem. And boy, is she a problem. (I never understood why he would stray from the lovely Anne Archer in the first place. But I digress).

 

"I?ll keep my eyes open to see if there are any Charlie Oakley?s lurking around who have 'charmed' the local populace but may appear, at least to this ex-Brooklynite, of committing some real mayhem, although I admit at my age I don?t see as well as I used to.? - Rickspade

 

Truer words were never spoken Mr. Spade. In fact, I subscribe to the old saying: ?THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE.? So sad...so true...so current.

 

I might not have anything to add to folks after I read this thread thoroughly, but you don?t need me interrupting and disrupting your wonderful flow of conversation. In fact, you can always put me on , but if I think of something pertinent to add before the topic grows cold, I?ll do it. Both ?In A Lonely Place? and ?Shadow of A Doubt? are among my favorite films. Both attempt to unmask The Maniac. I've always totally loved the wholesomeness of Teresa Wright (and have enjoyed her in many of her films) and as for Double G (Gloria Grahame)...well I?ve written reams and reams about her performances already.

 

So now, I thank you all (you too JackFavell and Rohanaka) in advance for what I?m sure will be a great read. Aaah, let me settle down for breakfast and TCM City.

 

P.S. Mr.Spade, where in Brooklyn makes you an ex?? I lived in Windsor Terrace (next to Park Slope).

 

Message was edited by CineMaven becuz I went back 108 pages and saw photos from "Angel Face" "Out of the Past" and "Desert Fury." Whew! Lovely!!

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"I'm trying to think of what Hitchcock movie she'd most fit in and I'm struggling to come up with one. Lifeboat"?

 

 

 

"That's not bad, but out of curiosity, I would have liked to see her in perhaps, 'Notorious', opposite Cary Grant, with whom I don't believe she ever made a film. However, she might have been a bit too old for the role, and of course, it's difficult to imagine anyone but the lovely Ingrid playing that part."

 

Ann Sheridan and Cary Grant worked together in "I Was A Male War Bride."

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> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}

> "I'm trying to think of what Hitchcock movie she'd most fit in and I'm struggling to come up with one. Lifeboat"?

>

>

>

> "That's not bad, but out of curiosity, I would have liked to see her in perhaps, 'Notorious', opposite Cary Grant, with whom I don't believe she ever made a film. However, she might have been a bit too old for the role, and of course, it's difficult to imagine anyone but the lovely Ingrid playing that part."

>

> Ann Sheridan and Cary Grant worked together in "I Was A Male War Bride."

 

 

Hi Cinemaven,

 

Just to set the record straight, I know Cary and Annie worked together in I Was a Male War Bride; it's one of my very favorite films (and on top of that, directed by probably my favorite director: Howard Hawks.) FrankGrimes and I were actually talking about Barbara Stanwyck, not Ann Sheridan; I think the confusion resulted from the fact that in copying his response to my response about which Hitchcock movie Stanwyck would have been good in (she never worked with him) I did not do a very good job of quoting his comments in the proper form. So, it looks as if he and I are referring to Sheridan and we're not. If you go back on the thread to Frank's post of March 22, you'll see he refers to "Missy" (Stanwyck's nickname) and that is his reaction to my suggestion in an earlier post that she (Stanwyck) might have been good in Notorious.

 

That was a very long-winded explanation and I hope I haven't confused you even further! (I have to start learning to be more succinct. . .as my wife has been telling me for years.)

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> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}

> P.S. Mr.Spade, where in Brooklyn makes you an ex?? I lived in Windsor Terrace (next to Park Slope).

>

>

HI Cinemaven (again)

 

I posted my other message before I read through your post on Shadow and In a Lonely Place, so I missed your question about my Brooklyn "roots." I was born and grew up on the border of Bensonhurst/Bay Ridge (actually the area is known as Dyker Heights) if you're familiar with that section of the borough. My misspent youth was spent in "Travolta town" as those bars in Bay Ridge came to be called after Saturday Night Fever came out (of course, my days of visiting those establishments pre-date that movie, sad to say, because that gives you a general idea of my age). Windsor Terrace is a nice neighborhood; the last job I had before I left New York was in the Park Slope area.

 

By the way, I share your admiration for In a Lonely Place; it's one of my favorite Bogart movies, and, in my opinion, the best of his work from his post-Treasure of the Sierra Madre period.

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Hi there Rick. Your explanation cleared up a lot for me. I was also confused becuz I do know that Stanwyck was known as Missy so I was just all over the place. Thanxx for the clarification.

 

I've never had occasion to travel into Bensonhurst, but I certainly do know of it.

 

As for Stanwyck and Grant in "Notorious" hmmmmm...I don't think so. "Missy" can be soft ("My Reputation" others) but my God Ingrid Bergman is just so...so...so...so! Her vulnerability is palpable.

 

Well, I'm still reading the discussion you had with my fellow posters and am enjoying it thoroughly.

 

And I don't think it'd take me more than two days to fall in love with Teresa Wright. She was lovely.

 

Hey...visit the Fan Programmer thread and hear about our trip. That event is coming up April 13 - 17.

 

Message was edited by CineMaven becuz I had to throw in that shameless plug. I had to. ;-)

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We had to come up with 15 films for a noir contest at SSO. Having an extra 10 choices seems a luxury at first, but in reality is harder because I can't include everything, but I can expand a bit on the must haves.

 

*Force of Evil* has always been my favorite noir. The rest are in no particular order and could change on my mood. I'm aware that many of these are not in the "classic" years, some are from other countries, some might not be considered noir to others, but I chose to list favorites and not limit myself.

 

*Force of Evil* (1948)

*Cutter's Way* (1981)

*Out of the Past* (1947)

*Act of Violence* (1948)

*Le Quai des brumes (Port of Shadows)* (1937)

*Rififi* (1955)

*The Killing of a Chinese Bookie* (1976)

*Scarlet Street* (1946)

*Il Bidone (The Swindle)* (1955)

*Try and Get Me* (1950)

*Brighton Rock* (1947)

*The Face of Another* (1966)

*In a Lonely Place* (1950)

*Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia* (1974)

*Nightmare Alley* (1947)

*You Only Live Once* (1937)

*Kiss Me Deadly* (1955)

*Touch of Evil* (1958)

*Taxi Driver* (1976)

*On Dangerous Ground* (1952)

*High and Low* (1963)

*Sunset Blvd.* (1950)

*Decoy* (1946)

*Blast of Silence* (1960)

*Blade Runner* (1982)

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> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}

>

> As for Stanwyck and Grant in "Notorious" hmmmmm...I don't think so. "Missy" can be soft ("My Reputation" others) but my God Ingrid Bergman is just so...so...so...so! Her vulnerability is palpable.

 

Well, I've become such a huge Stanwyck fan that I'm convinced there isn't any role she could not have handled, however, I do agree about Ingrid's vulnerability...it's the same quality that makes her so wonderful in Casablanca.

>

> Well, I'm still reading the discussion you had with my fellow posters and am enjoying it thoroughly.

>

I'm glad you're enjoying it, but it should be clear from everyone's comments that my views have put me in a position akin to one of mystery writer Walter Mosley's literary protagonists: Always Outnumbered, Always Outgunned.

 

>

> Hey...visit the Fan Programmer thread and hear about our trip. That event is coming up April 13 - 17.

>

I have paid several visits to the thread already and have enjoyed all of your first-hand comments about your Atlanta/TCM exploits. I'm looking forward very much to seeing you and your fellow programmers, as well as your chosen films, and the film that you selected, The Letter, is one of my very favorites. I think it's one of Davis's top performances and the film is a classic. (Speaking of Ann Sheridan, as we have in other posts, I guess you know that Ann was in the remake of The Letter that Warners did in 1947, called The Unfaithful. It wasn't nearly as good as the original, but I thought Ann did a very creditable job in Bette's role.)

 

 

 

 

>

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Fantastic list of noirs, Mr. Ark! In spite of the ongoing debate between those who feel film noir ended in 1959 and those who believe it's never ended at all, I feel that the modern films you reference are among the finest made, most notably *KILLING OF A CHINESE BOOKIE, CUTTER'S WAY*, and *BRING ME THE HEAD OF ALFREDO GARCIA.* Two of the French films you mentioned, *LE QUAI DES BRUMES* and *RIFIFI* are also among my own personal favorites. As for the so-called "classic era" noir, it's nice to see that you've listed some of my favorites: *DECOY, TRY AND GET ME, KISS ME DEADLY, NIGHTMARE ALLEY* and, of course, *OUT OF THE PAST.*

Thanks for a great list!!

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If I might go back one more quick time to Shadow of a Doubt,

 

>The proof of Uncle Charlie being charming is that he makes wealthy widows, a man of the cloth, and a banker all fall for him. They all toast him. Is this because Uncle Charlie is a man of wealth? Hmmmm... Yet, he's bankrupt.

 

Uncle Charlie only attracts people (outside the family) who are interested in wealth and power. If he did not put out the vibe of "wealthy man about town" none of the people who notice him would give him the time of day. He is all about POWER. He has learned how to get it. In this respect he is right about people. Certain folks are very eager to suck up to him as long as he presents himself in a certain way. And so, Uncle Charlie sees the world as an evil place, and for him, it IS. But that is because he became the exact thing that Charlie is longing to be at the beginning of the movie. He has sold out for wealth and will do ANYTHING to get it. That is why his world is getting smaller and smaller, and more evil. He is running out of places to feel powerful in. Because he is smart enough to see what shallowness his type of life really is. And everything he does, everywhere he goes is just the same for him and always will be. He is not just a self-loather, he is a self-killer. I believe that he is killing himself every time he takes a victim. Hitchcock is brilliant to show us the vanity that Uncle Charlie observes. We see what he sees - just enough to almost sympathize.

 

Uncle Charlie wants someone to love him for who he is, but what he is is a void, a sucking need for the fake trappings of the world. So he will only attract a fake love. He is sick and twisted. He would turn a real love into something suspicious and evil if he were to get it. As he does with Young Charlie's love..... His need for power and it's trappings kills everything, including the places he feels most comfortable. Even Young Charlie, who looks up to him (for his worldly appearance? Is she really so different from anyone else?), on discovering his true nature, turns away. His doubt of human nature horrifies her. No wonder he loathes himself.

 

As for Bruno, in Strangers on a Train, He is about power too. Lack of power. His life is almost the opposite of Uncle Charlie's. And when he finally gets power, it is a glorious thing for him, you can see how excited he gets. He practically floats on it! He has a new friend who actually knows what he is capable of, and he has POWER over him, too! He is positively gleeful.

 

Bogie, from In a Lonely Place, is a little different. I don't think his rage stems from lack of power at all. I think his rage is somewhat justified, just not the intensity of it. Once it is started, there is no stopping it, and it grows and grows. It feeds itself like a fire. His emotions are simply out of whack, not unreasonable, or absent. He takes out his frustrations on unwitting victims, not chosen victims.

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Hi, Wendy!

 

Fantastic observations and a razor sharp analysis of "what makes Charles tick". As you

(and CineMaven) point out, there is a lot of self-loathing underneath all the meglomania and

superiority---as there so often is.

 

In that scene when he is bed (FrankGrimes posted caps) and his sister is standing next to him

and young Charlie, telling her about his "accident" and how he used to be---all we see is his

profile and to me, he looks like a sullen little boy as he listens to his past. Listening to it doesn't

give him satisfaction, as many egotisitcal people would because they love to be talked about.

Instead, it seems to depress him and prompts him to make those morbid, cynical remarks. His

sister's words had a strange effect on him. As if they reminded him of what he had lost---maybe,

his innocence?

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Thanks for the nice words Dewey. *Killing of a Chinese Bookie, Cutter's Way and Alfredo* are pure noir to me, whereas *Blade Runner* takes the genre to the next level. I'm very aware that many will look at *BR* simply as SciFi, but if any movie modernized the noir world, it's this one. Like *Out of the Past*, *Blade Runner* has become art that transcends categorization and is not just thought of as a genre film, but one of the greatest (in my opinion) films ever made. Modern it may be (and amazingly still is!), but at its heart we find the noir protagonist, discovering himself in a world that is both futuristic and familiar.

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> I'm very aware that many will look at BL simply as SciFi, but if any movie modernized the noir world, it's this one.

 

I agree with you, Arkadin. "Blade Runner" continues to dazzle many fans more than 25 years after its initial release. It really does trascend generalization and takes a noir approach to material that (to my knowledge) never had been approached that way in the history of cinema. Good choice!

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I noticed those caps too! I thought he looked kind of blank in them, like he couldn't even remember what he was before....

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Miss Goddess: he looks like a sullen little boy

 

Jack Favell: I thought he looked kind of blank in them, like he couldn't even remember what he was before

 

I think you are both right. April.. He DID look like a sullen litte boy... but I have to agree w/ Jackie.. I imagine he only knows his present emotional state and has NO ability to recall his "normal" days before he was injured. I am certainly NO expert on brain injuries... but I think that little side story is there as a way to possibly explain what made him the way he was... and I think that makes it all the more tragic...if not sympathetic...in a way.

 

But still he was a monster... no matter what "made him"... so the sympathy for him that I might have only goes so far.

 

(Maybe not a right comparison... but I think of him sort of like I would one of Dracula's victims... Many of those folks were perfectly nice people BEFORE he bit them... but afterward... I'd be looking for a BIG wooden stake... no matter what. Ha.)

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Kath-

 

I think if you watch the movie, April's description is closer to his reaction. But looking at those caps, I was just stunned at the lack of expression on his face when captured one frame at a time. It is almost creepier to me than the whole movie....

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Hiya Wendy... I DO see both sides of what you each are saying... I think it is a case where he really can't feel what he used to be like anymore though... At that particular moment... I don't think he's loathing himself... I think he is hating them for standing there talking about him. And I also think he's thinking about how MUCH he hates the world and everybody in it. I don't know... that's just always been my take.. I could be wrong. (it's been known to happen) ha.

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I don't see you as being wrong that often, my friend. You are more often right on the nose.

 

You know, it's funny that this came up, because it has always bothered me a little that the writers or Hitch felt the need to explain his evil tendencies in such a way. The accident thing never rings true to me. Although, I think if he had bruised a section of his brain (like a stroke) and lost his ability to empathize, that might explain things a bit.

 

After reading this thread, I start to see that they didn't necessarily want to explain him as much as they wanted to have an excuse for the mother's blindness to his weird and nasty outbursts, and his strange behavior.

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YOU are too nice to me.. :-)

 

And PS... you may be on to something w/ regard to the "mom' angle....I think it is a common theme in a lot of murder movies... to want to explain away HOW could someone be THAT awful... or WHAT made them act that way... Nobody (especially a mother) would want to think their loved one was a monster like that to be sure... and I think it shows why the sister was so blind to his "off-ness" as well. She still looked at him as that poor little injured boy and wanted to mother him like she used to do.

 

The accident thing never rings true to me. Although, I think if he had bruised a section of his brain (like a stroke) and lost his ability to empathize, that might explain things a bit.

 

I think (again... from a very limited understanding of such things) it is possible to have a bad enough brain injury that it will totally and permanently change your entire personality as well as remove certain "inhibitions" and also affect as you say.. the ability to empathize. (I think it may have something to do with what portion of your brain was injured... but I probably have just watched too many crime shows.. Ha)

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I should know about this myself, from my many years of watching reruns of ER.... :)

 

I am going to go watch The Good Fairy now. See ya!

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