Sukhov Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 47 minutes ago, JakeHolman said: Your article gets quite a bit of Marx's theories wrong and it wouldn't surprise me if he never picked up a book of Marx's in his life. Firstly, Marx's ideas of revolution were no different than the American revolution that overthrew feudal interests for capitalist interests. Secondly, Marx attacked authoritarian forms of communism in his life time and called them "Barracks Communism." The fact he does not know this shows he has never read any of his work. Thirdly, Marx never denied individual rights, human rights or democracy. This is literally just a sheer lie. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels stated in the Communist Manifesto and later works that "the first step in the revolution by the working class, is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class, to win the battle for democracy" and universal suffrage. Fourthly, Venezuela is not marxist. It has 70% privatization, which is more than FDR era US. Fifth, the US actually funds money to Kurdish socialists in Rojava to fight ISIS. Your very tax dollars are going towards Socialism whether you realize it or not. I hope I could clear up some very inane misinterpretations. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Vautrin Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 While there was an economic element to the American Revolution, I don't think that was the main motivating factor for it. And I don't know if I'd call the America of the late 18th century a feudal society, certainly not in the way the term is used to describe the Europe of the Middle Ages. And then there is the question of whether there was a truly capitalist society in America in the 1780s when it was mostly an agricultural one. Link to post Share on other sites
Sukhov Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, Vautrin said: While there was an economic element to the American Revolution, I don't think that was the main motivating factor for it. And I don't know if I'd call the America of the late 18th century a feudal society, certainly not in the way the term is used to describe the Europe of the Middle Ages. And then there is the question of whether there was a truly capitalist society in America in the 1780s when it was mostly an agricultural one. In Marx's terminology, the monarchies of that time were considered part of the Feudalist stage. While the US was a colony of a Feudalist monarch, Marx said feudalism had no real roots in America in the first place, it was "subordinate to bourgeois society" from the very beginning. You're right that the US wasn't industrialized at that time but the American and French revolutions were both seen as the end of the Feudalist stage by his terminology. Link to post Share on other sites
Vautrin Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 18 hours ago, Gershwin fan said: In Marx's terminology, the monarchies of that time were considered part of the Feudalist stage. While the US was a colony of a Feudalist monarch, Marx said feudalism had no real roots in America in the first place, it was "subordinate to bourgeois society" from the very beginning. You're right that the US wasn't industrialized at that time but the American and French revolutions were both seen as the end of the Feudalist stage by his terminology. I still don't think the American revolutionists had the intention to overthrow a feudal society for a capitalistic one, even disregarding that they likely wouldn't use those terms. If there was no revolution, the U.S. would have become a capitalist society anyway, though the timing of that might have been altered. Link to post Share on other sites
Sukhov Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Vautrin said: I still don't think the American revolutionists had the intention to overthrow a feudal society for a capitalistic one, even disregarding that they likely wouldn't use those terms. If there was no revolution, the U.S. would have become a capitalist society anyway, though the timing of that might have been altered. Yeah, I agree there was much more to it than that but through Marx's theory of Dialectical Materialism it was mainly about Bourgeois getting rid of the monarchy. He did admit that America was at no time feudal and was essentially bourgeois from its conception though. The monarchy of the time represents the feudal order. Link to post Share on other sites
Vautrin Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Gershwin fan said: Yeah, I agree there was much more to it than that but through Marx's theory of Dialectical Materialism it was mainly about Bourgeois getting rid of the monarchy. He did admit that America was at no time feudal and was essentially bourgeois from its conception though. The monarchy of the time represents the feudal order. Bourgeois is likely a fairly good description of the Founding Fathers and the colonial elite. There still being a large population of independent farmers and craftsmen who worked for themselves, I don't believe there was yet a true mass proletarian class which had to sell its own labor to the bourgeois, but that was obviously where early America was headed. Link to post Share on other sites
JakeHolman Posted May 17, 2018 Author Share Posted May 17, 2018 xxxxxxxxxxxx Link to post Share on other sites
hamradio Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 5 hours ago, HIGHWAY said: Again the misuse of that word. He's no more the antichrist than I'm Inuit Eskimo. Guy should stick to supplying lumber. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Sukhov Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Cuban-Crash-Government-Offers-Aid-Announces-Day-of-Mourning-20180519-0002.html Acea further added that the Government of Cuba offers full support for the relatives during this difficult time. The arduous task of identifying the victims of the Cuban plane crash has begun with a member of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Party and first secretary of the organization in Havana, Mercedes López Acea, present to offer comfort to the bereaved. Acea used the opportunity to extend support to the relatives of some 110 victims of the plane crash which occurred at about midday Friday, in Havana. The first secretary also conveyed the condolences of Army General Raul Castro, First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Party as well as President Miguel Díaz-Canel. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JakeHolman Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 NO COMMENT... Link to post Share on other sites
hamradio Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, JakeHolman said: NO COMMENT... Be like trying to separate an object from the surface of a Neutron Star. Link to post Share on other sites
LawrenceA Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 hours ago, JakeHolman said: NO COMMENT... Did anyone expect one? If you were to post two complete sentences at once, we'd all pass out from the shock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Vautrin Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Next up, trying to separate capitalism from Haiti. Link to post Share on other sites
Sukhov Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Vautrin said: Next up, trying to separate capitalism from Haiti. Haiti at the very least has commodity production and private property so it is capitalist. Anyone who thinks a nation with 70% privatization is Socialist doesn't know what they're talking about. Link to post Share on other sites
jamesjazzguitar Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Gershwin fan said: Haiti at the very least has commodity production and private property so it is capitalist. Anyone who thinks a nation with 70% privatization is Socialist doesn't know what they're talking about. It looks like you completely misunderstood what Vautrin was getting at mention Hati; To me it was Hati has a capitalist economic system and a s-hold country. Venezuela has a socialist economic system and is a s-hole country. I.e. 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2. Link to post Share on other sites
Sukhov Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Just now, jamesjazzguitar said: It looks like you completely misunderstood what Vautrin was getting at mention Hati; To me it was Hati has a capitalist economic system and a s-hold country. Venezuela has a socialist economic system and is a s-hole country. I.e. 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2. No, I was 100% agreeing with him but also mocking Venezuela's critics because it is not considered a Socialist nation proper. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/18/socialism-private-sector-dominates-venezuelan-economy-despite-chavez-crusade.html Link to post Share on other sites
Vautrin Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Gershwin fan said: Haiti at the very least has commodity production and private property so it is capitalist. Anyone who thinks a nation with 70% privatization is Socialist doesn't know what they're talking about. Yep. I think the economic problems in Venezuela are a result of plain old incompetence and corruption than of any economic system. Link to post Share on other sites
hamradio Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 3 hours ago, jamesjazzguitar said: It looks like you completely misunderstood what Vautrin was getting at mention Hati; To me it was Hati has a capitalist economic system and a s-hold country. Venezuela has a socialist economic system and is a s-hole country. I.e. 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2. Nah I wouldn't call them that. How about a pigsty? Link to post Share on other sites
JakeHolman Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 SO BAD... Link to post Share on other sites
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