ROBERT RYAN - The Real Quiet Man

[FrankGrimes]

All right, I owe you a reply, Miss Scarlett.

 

I may change this upon my next viwing of High Noon, but I am currently under

the impression that the relationship with Helen and Will started out as one like

that between Rhett and Belle Watling, but which began to take a serious turn. I had

thought it was Frank Miller's entrance on the scene that busted up any furtherance

of a serious relationship. It's PURELY speculative of me to say this, but I thought

maybe it was Frank's relationship with Helen, either before Kane's or something

between Helen and Frank after she and Kane got started, that broke them up.

 

I differ with you and Jackie with all this. I believe Helen was interested in Will because

he was now the man in charge in Hadleyville. She went after him. Will, being

a single guy with no real cares for things like love, marriage, and family, welcomed

her advances.

 

I feel Helen goes after men for survival reasons, NOT love. I just cannot swallow this

entire, "poor, innocent Helen, she had to be a prostitute to eat" stuff. "She didn't

mean to use men, she just had to or she would die." That's really selling women

short. Helen is a user of men. That's her business. I'm not crying for the men, because

most of us guys like being used in the way Helen is using.

 

I thought maybe Kane needed her to break off with her old ways, with all other men

entirely and maybe she either did not do that or Kane mistakenly thought she wasn't

true to him.

 

This would mean Helen didn't love Will. How could she go around sleeping with other

men if she truly loved Will? Are you saying she was all about business more than

loving Will? If she wasn't all about business, why would Will break it off with her? What

other reason could it be? Why would Helen say, "do you think I've changed" to him? That

makes it seem like Will wanted her to be something that she wasn't willing to be. What

would that be? And what is it that Amy is giving him that Helen cannot? What do you

think?

 

Regardless of the circumstances, I have always felt Kane basically couldn't live with

a woman who had prostituted herself. I think he may have truly cared about her, but

couldn't deal with her past, or, as it may be, her continued life of living off of

men--especially a man like Frank Miller.

 

I think differently of Will. I actually believe Will did love Helen and wanted to settle down

with her. I don't see Will judging her in a harsh way. But her line of, "do you think

I've changed," could suggest he's judging her. Still, I just don't see this being Will.

 

You are doing like Jackie said, seeing everything "black and white" (Kathy---do

you see this? )

 

 

We'll see what Jackie has to say about Ward Bond's character in

On Dangerous Ground.

 

ON DANGEROUS GROUND SPOILER AHEAD

 

I didn't say he wasn't ignorant, but, HELLO, his daughter was MURDERED. Cut

the guy some slack!

 

Okay.

 

Are YOU, a fairly educated guy with advantages he never dreamed of, going to be

in a completely resasonable, rational state of mind if that happened to your daughter?

 

No.

 

And wasn't he, in fact, going after the right person, even if it wasn't entirely clear what

kind of person it was? How was he to know, living as isolated as he and folk like him

do? He didn't have the advantages or time to better his mind so he's a man who's

going to act without reason.

 

Ignorance doesn't give someone the right. You are right about the emotion. So there.

 

And he is the brutal mirror image of Robert Ryan, he shows Ryan what he was in

danger of becoming. But Ryan had the advantages Bond's character never had

and yet even so, Bond does admit in the end to his mistake and he doesn't make

any excuses for himself, though having a murdered daughter is plenty excuse if you

ask me. It took Ryan a lot longer to see the error of his ways. Would you feel like

sitting around weighing all options when your daughter was just brutally murdered

and you know who the killer is and it looks like the cops are not moving fast

enough, letting him get away? I'm not saying I agree with him, I just think he has

to be given some slack because of what just happened. Ryan whales on people willy

nilly for FAR less "reason".

 

That was wonderfully said, Miss Emotional. I agree with you. But I still think Wardy's

character acts a fool. He's an "eye for an eye" character.

 

You are very right about Walter Brent (Ward Bond) being the mirror image of Jim

Wilson (Robert Ryan). Each lets hate and revenge dictate their actions. Wilson's hate

and revenge is aimed at society and himself.

 

And you are most definitely right about Walter feeling shame and guilt at the end. That

does speak to his character.

 

I think it's the way Bond plays Walter and his get-up that makes him seem foolish and

even cartoonish to me. He actually does seem like a caricature.

 

But could he be shown some compassion, a simple man behaving simplistically,

after having just seen the brutalized body of his daughter? Are you going to think

about the killer more than your daughter, even you who are better educated?

 

No, ma'am. I'd get upset if anyone treated a woman that I cared about wrongly, let

alone...

 

You act like he's out "hunting", and not reacting to his daughter's murder!

 

But he was hunting and he had no guarantee of his being right. He just wanted

someone to pay. That's dangerous ground.

 

I think most men would feel, at least temporarily, as he did. You are

totally forgetting what motivated him. Perhaps because in so many

movies about similar murders, you saw the act and the horrible

graphic details. We aren't shown the details and so maybe her

murder is not as deeply felt to you. Thinkn about what happened

to her a little more, as the audience of that day would have; an audience

that was a lot smarter than we are today because they didn't need

every sordid detail spelled out for them to "get it".

 

You are right.

 

We can skip it altogether, or you can. You don't really like Ford anyway so

I would just as leave you didn't bother if you aren't really interested, for

goodness sake!

 

Sweet freedom!

 

As for Helen and Amy, I think they are alike in at least one other way, besides

their love for Will.

 

Hmmmmm... now that's a tease. I'm struggling to think of what it could be. So, what

is it?

 

You have a one track mind, G.W.

 

Because I'm just an ignorant guy!

 

But that doesn't mean she isn't capable of also being, paradoxically, another kind

of woman as well.

 

Well, you are right... again. This is no good. I think most have the capability to

change.

 

We are seldom all one thing. Amy takes a step that is anathema to her

convictions and experiences, out of love. I bleieve Helen is capable of the

same, but she was not, alas, as fortunate, and more tragically perhaps, a

victim of her own mistaken choices. No, I don't see her has perfect, just human

and more flesh and blood than the heretofore unformed Amy.

 

All right, this is not Miss G. You are making far too much sense to be her. Who is this?

 

I really like your usage of the phrase: mistaken choices. That is what I feel Helen has

done. Still, she's the kind of woman who is always ready to move on to the next. She's a

survivor. She must continue on with her business, to which men are a part.

 

Amy is not a character I despise, quite the contrary, by the way.

 

Yes, I do know this. I truly believe Amy is to be admired. She's most definitely my kind

of girl. She may be stubborn, but at least she cares about a man and is willing to

sacrifice for one.

 

I don't know yet about whether or not it's Helen's place to sacrifice anything. She

can't step into the role that properly belongs to Amy, especially if unbidden or

unwanted by Kane.

 

It's my belief she had the chance to sacrifice for Will when she was with him but chose

not to. This is why I say she's full of it.

 

I guess she could meet Frank Miller and try to distract him from his mission

to get even with Kane. I'm not sure. That might be a little too much of a stretch. Maybe

we aren't to admire everything about Helen, just that she is honest where the

others "hide".

 

I don't think she's as honest as you think. I believe she lies to herself. False pride. She's

going to end up rich and lonely. Hollow.

 

Now admit you were wrong about Doniphon.

 

No! He's a condescending jerk, initially.

 

I can understand where you're getting your impressions of Helen from. And I think

many men would feel the same, but I disagree that she is incapable of loving and

sacrificing for Kane. No, I believe she is a paradox, unlike other women who are

similar (I have known many who would NEVER sacrifice or lift a finger to help any

man unless it guaranteed a nice return on investment.)

 

You are very right. My usage of the word "incapable" is wrong. What I need to say is

"unWILLing."

 

I think this is why that scene in the bedroom with Helen and Harvey is inserted.

To show how Helen knows, and the audience now can be assured of, how very

different these two men are to each other. She has known both intimately and

she knows who is the man, who is the foolish boy. I don't think the scene exists

to make her appear callous or uncaring of Will.

 

Ohhh, I definitely agree with you. I think Helen DOES care about Will and she

DOES love him.

 

She's a woman who lives off of men, that fact isn't disguised at all in this movie

 

Are you reading this, Jackie? She's a user!

 

but we are given to understand that she and Will, at some point, experienced an

altogether different relationship, however brief or aborted.

 

I agree.

 

Just as it's always Ford's The Quiet Man with you!

 

No, no, no. It's all about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

 

I think Scarlett is more childish, yes, but she's also probably ten years younger

than Helen when we first meet her, if not more. I believe Helen is more "adult" because

she has more heart. That makes her more of a woman than a child.

 

But I feel Amy has more heart than Helen and she's in her early-20s. I take Helen to be

in her 30s. I don't think heart has anything to do with age.

 

Helen does have more heart than Scarlett. But, then again, who doesn't?

 

I don't agree with that, I think she is capable, but her past (or present) somehow

robbed her of the chance. I may be wrong, but I believe her way of life, her past, got the

better of Kane. He couldn't handle it. Something about her relationship to another man,

Miller or others, is behind it. That he marries a virgin Quaker, a woman (girl) who is

closer to his own values (if vastly more committed to them than he ever was) is his

ideal.

 

In this scenario, you paint Will out to be a user, so Jackie should be smiling. I just

don't see Will being this kind of man. It doesn't seem to match his character. Do you

think Helen surprised him with the "truth" about what she was? Do you think he was

naive enough to not figure it out on his own? He chose to be with her, and I still believe he

has very deep feelings for Helen. I just can't see Will saying, "all this sex has been

great, Helen, my dear, but you're not my kind of gal." I think he loved her, but he wanted

her to change. So what is it that Will wanted Helen to change?

 

Will is giving up the badge for a reason.

 

Men, good men like Kane, are, in the end, often judgemental about women with the

kind of sexual history Helen has. I don't say this to judge Kane anymore than I do Helen.

It just is.

 

Boys, on the other hand, are very attracted by Helen's type.

 

That was quite profound, and I happen to agree with you. Men like the good girls, boys

like the bad ones. The same can be said of women. It's all about maturity. You start

with passion (sex) but you end with love. Will gets this. How about Helen?

 

It could be the actresses and their personality affect you differently. Too, we don't

see Belle with other men, which clearly she is and was. She is portrayed less

ambivalently, more sympathetically. We see her as Melanie does. Helen is not

presented to us through anyone else's more mitigating eyes. She's got less

protection there.

 

That was very good. I think you are right. I find Ona Munson to be warmer than Katy

Jurado. Katy is jagged to me. She's got sharp edges. But I also got the sense that

Belle actually loved Rhett more than Helen loved Will. It was in her eyes. She was

really hurting for HIM. She cared about him that much. Boy, Ona's performance is

excellent in Gone With the Wind. It's full of emotion and... love.

 

 

 

 

 

I cannot see Helen shedding a tear for Will. Can she even cry? She seems so doggone

cold to me.

 

I have to watch it again, if that's the case it really muddies the water for me. Why

would they bring up Miller then, again, in their conversation between them? If Kane

got involved with her after he knew she was with Miller, why hold it against her still

at this point?

 

Because Helen was Frank's dame and then she jumped into Will's bed. This places

Helen in great danger. Frank is going to really give Helen the "business" if they are to

meet again. Will knows this. Helen knows this. And guess who else knows this?:

 

 

 

We may never get to the bottom of what really happened. It could be just that he

was too intolerant or jealous of Helen's relationships with Miller or other men.

 

It's all speculative, but I believe it's important we think about such things if we are to

"get" the characters Helen and Amy. The simple way is to just say, "Amy isn't standing

by her man and Helen would." You see, it just ain't that simple to me. Jackie was

saying that I was viewing Helen in a simplistic, cartoonish way. I think the above view is

the simple, cartoonish way to see them. I feel like there is more to it than that. It all

depends on if someone is willing to look deeper or not.

 

Yes, I believe Helen WOULD pick up a gun and help fight the Miller gang with Will. That's

definitely befitting her character. She would stand by her man in that instance. However,

when asked to settle down, she won't stand by him.

 

I just never got the sense that she let him down. I have to really watch this again,

maybe I'm missing some line of dialogue you are basing this upon? Did he indicate

in words that she disappointed him? If so, I may have construed that to mean she

did something with Frank Miller that ticked him off. Maybe she continued to have

some sort of business with Miller while seeing Kane. He wouldn't have liked that.

 

I'm basing everything off of how Will Kane is in his scene with Helen. The feeling I get

is that he still deeply cares about Helen. I get the sense that he still loved her. So why

in the world wouldn't he marry her? Why?

 

Doing so, she may have not gotten enough reassurance that Kane would marry

her, making it worth her while to cut off all ties to other men. A woman in her

position isn't going to get many offers of marriage and respectability so she has

to know it's for real before she is willing to change, unless she changes for

spiritual reasons. There's no other reason to change. Maybe he was hesitant

to be clear with her that he would marry her. I can see a misunderstanding, fear

and lack of clear communication tearing them apart. After all, he had more

to lose than a boy like Harvey, his pride for one thing---a grown man making

a fool of himself over a you-know-what? Harvey can live that down but not a

man Will's age. And Helen too, losing all she worked for just for a man who

wouldn't commit?

 

So you believe as Jackie does: Will was the problem. I'm on the other side of that

fence. I think Will is purer than Helen. I believe he wanted to settle down with Helen

but she was unwilling to do so. She loved him but she didn't love him. What's a

man to do?

 

That is an interesting comparison. It ties in with my own views, that they got together

casually and at some point it got sersious enough that Helen's involvement with Frank

Miller became a "deal breaker".

 

No! I think Will wanted to settle down and Helen didn't want to. In Gunsmoke, I see

it being the opposite. I see Miss Kitty wanting to settle down but not Matt. Of course,

what's Gunsmoke if Matt ain't the sheriff? I wonder if Miss Kitty would shack up with

Newly?

 

1. Helen and Kane were definitely an item after Frank Miller got sent up.

 

Yes.

 

2. Helen never spoke to Kane for one year after their break up, right until the

present day when he came to her rooms.

 

Yes.

 

3. Several things seem to indicate that Kane left her. Nothing enlightened

me as to why, so that's still open to speculation, but it's clear Helen loved WK

very much and still does.

 

Yes. This is why I've been asking for Jackie and your takes on why Will and Helen

split. I've been giving mine.

 

4. Helen is not afraid of Frank Miller and I don't think she was in any contact

with him (via letters).

 

I think she is afraid of Frank Miller but she wasn't in contact with him. Yes, I know

she says she's not afraid of him, but I don't buy it.

 

The letters Kane alluded to, based on how he speaks of them, sound like they came

to Frank from his minions, not Helen.

 

That's how I took it. His lackeys most likely informed Frank, via letters, that Helen

was with Will after he was sent up the river. This places her in danger.

 

Helen is leaving because she can't watch kane get killed or stay in a town that

would let it happen. She's "all alone in the world" (her words) and has to look to start

somewhere new, too. So her reasons for leaving are mixed and I still think she

would stay if he were hers.

 

I disagree. I believe she is leaving because her business is in jeopardy in a lawless

town and it would be Frank who was back in charge, which really places her and her

business in serious jeopardy. She's fleeing to protect her own hide. She's a

businesswoman and a survivor. Maybe this is where Helen and Amy are the same. They

are both fleeing for their "principles."

 

5. I did find it odd that when her business associate offers to help Kane if

she wants him to, she tells him no, she doesn't want him to.

 

Uh-huh.

[FrankGrimes]

The truth is, Frank, we all have a little of Amy in us and a little of Helen.......

 

And that's why we love ya.

 

I like a good girl who can be naughty. The bad girls don't interest me. Never

have. But a constant wave of goodness turns me off, too. Very frustrating.

[CineMaven]

Well Frankie, to paraphrase the Master(*) "when I'm good, I'm very very good. And when I'm bad...I'm better!"[/b]

 

 

 

* The Master? Why Mae West, of course.

 

 

 

And I totally live by that.

[MissGoddess]

Well, there's a lot to chaw on in what you wrote, Shiftless. I think you are still

wrong about Helen's duplicity but there is enough room for doubt that I cannot

be 100% confident. I just find it hard to believe that we are not to take Helen's

words at face value. That kind of duplicity doesn't seem in keeping with Foreman's

script, Zinneman's direction or the time this movie was made. You are the first

person I have come across to question Jurado's character and maybe you are

right, if so, it opens up a lot of possibilities. Everyone tends to focus on the

political stuff Foreman supposedly hid in between the lines but here we seem

to have the suggestion he hid even more into the character of Helen. It would

go along with the pervading line of everyone abandoning Will for whatever reason

they had. And that would make Amy the only one who really was on his side

(which is true in actions, though up to now I always believed Helen would and

could have been just as true.)

 

This is beginning to get out of my depth. Ultimately though, I am not convinced

yet that we are not to take Helen's words for what they are.

 

I'll try to reply more in full as I have time. I'm interested in what Jackie and

CinemAva have to say....and where is Will's number one back-up, Coopsgirl?

[MissGoddess]

By the way, I declare I did see a tear in helen's eye in that encounter with Will in

her room.

[FrankGrimes]

By the way, I declare I did see a tear in helen's eye in that encounter with Will in

her room.

 

You'll have to post that cap for us.

 

I think you are still wrong about Helen's duplicity

 

Of course.

 

but there is enough room for doubt that I cannot be 100% confident.

 

It's all speculative.

 

I just find it hard to believe that we are not to take Helen's words at face value.

 

So you believe her when she says she wouldn't lift a finger for Will. I don't. I think she

WOULD lift a finger for Will. It's just which finger and for what. Her love is conditional.

 

That kind of duplicity doesn't seem in keeping with Foreman's script, Zinneman's

direction or the time this movie was made. You are the first person I have come

across to question Jurado's character and maybe you are right, if so, it opens up

a lot of possibilities.

 

I don't know too many people who view High Noon as a "marriage" film, as I do.

 

Follow the trail of men.

 

Everyone tends to focus on the political stuff Foreman supposedly hid in between

the lines but here we seem to have the suggestion he hid even more into the

character of Helen.

 

So much is hidden in the film because it takes place in real time. There's no time for

too much backstory or getting to know characters. We are left to make our own

decisions, to think for ourselves.

 

It would go along with the pervading line of everyone abandoning Will for whatever

reason they had. And that would make Amy the only one who really was on his side

(which is true in actions, though up to now I always believed Helen would and

could have been just as true.)

 

Amy and the boy are the only ones who don't truly abandon Will. I most definitely

believe Helen would have stuck around for Will if he was still her man. Like I said, when

it comes to fighting, Helen will stick around. When it comes to sacrificing for love,

I don't think so. I don't view her as a true "stand by your man" woman. Not at all. Her

current man is Harvey. She sure as heck ain't standing by him. Why be with a guy if

you're going to abandon him at the drop of a hat? Does she have zero feelings for

Harvey? Man, she's cold. What would you think of a man who did that to a woman? Is

he to be respected?

 

This is beginning to get out of my depth. Ultimately though, I am not convinced

yet that we are not to take Helen's words for what they are.

 

For me, it all boils down to how you answer the question, "why did Will leave Helen?" There's

no right answer to it, of course. But I feel how someone answers that question goes a long

way in how you are to view Will and Helen as individuals. The way I answer that question

is that I think Will's love for Helen had matured and he wanted to settle down and start a

life and family with her. He was an aging man who wanted more out of life, more from

Helen. He was ready to take the next step in his life. I don't believe Helen was. It didn't

interest her any. Will finds a woman who is willing to give him what he wants in Amy.

 

I think it's also important to decide on what Helen means when she says to Will, "do you

think I've changed?" What do you take those strong, combative words to mean? After

not talking to Will for a year, those are her first words to him. Why?

 

Basically, I start from the Will-Helen break-up. That's the "scene of the crime," to

me. What explanation befits the character of Will and Helen... for you?

 

Did Will love Helen? If he did, why didn't he just marry her and settle down with her? Did

Will just abandon Helen just to abandon her? Is that befitting the character of

Will Kane? What would cause the split? What's your call?

[FrankGrimes]

Well Frankie, to paraphrase the Master(*) "when I'm good, I'm very very good. And

when I'm bad...I'm better!"

 

* The Master? Why Mae West, of course.

 

And I totally live by that.

 

And that's why you're a lively gal, Lively Gal.

[FrankGrimes]

By the way, if you wish to cut and paste your answers over on the "Coop" thread, I can

reply to you there.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> By the way, if you wish to cut and paste your answers over on the "Coop" thread, I can

> reply to you there.

 

Maybe we should do that.

[JackFavell]

I just finally realized why I don't think Helen is the way you say she is, Frank, and I am using your own weird logic to prove it.

 

Your argument hasn't sat well with me for some time because I cannot understand why a man like Will would be attracted to, much less in love with such a creature - the creature you described as cold, only out for herself and her business, and a user. And don't tell me he made a mistake! That is not allowed! If you can't see that Helen made a mistake with Harvey, then I can't see that Will made a mistake with Helen. Besides, you said that Will didn't make a mistake with Helen yourself.

 

Do you honestly think *Will Kane* would fall for such a woman?

 

I don't. In fact, I think it is impossible. I don't think that Helen is duplicitous or phony. She would have had to purposely set out to fool him, and he would have to be as gullible as a spring lamb to fall for it. I don't think either of them are like that in any way shape or form. And I don't think he is the type to just go into something without any thought at all. That is why I think you are wrong about Helen Ramirez. Going on the "Will's character is why I believe the way I do" argument, I just can't buy that Will could be either that stupid, or that needy. His character shows me that he would not be interested a woman like that.

 

I think and I have always thought that her line "Do you think I have changed?" and the next two lines ( I think it's just two short lines) about not lifting a finger for him are said in anger. She has been waiting for her moment to finally say the things on her mind from a year ago. She has saved up a lot of hurt, and she blurts these words out angrily. I take the "Do you think I have changed?" line to mean, "I told you I didn't want to see you again when you told me it wouldn't work out between us. And I still feel the same way." In her mind, there are 3 reasons he might be back....

 

1. to apologize for his behavior.

 

2. to get back with her.

 

3. to get her to help him with Frank.

 

Think of her feelings.... he only comes to her when he needs help.... how would you feel if the girl you loved left you and came back a year later only to ask you for protection against an old boyfriend? You would be mad or hurt. Either way, she could very likely say, "Do you think I have changed?" meaning, "Do you think I want you back? " or "Do you think I'm not mad anymore?" She wants to hurt him the way that she has been hurt.

 

After she says her piece, she changes toward him. Her words change. The emotion behind her next few lines is different. She loses her anger. She has said her piece, and it didn't make her feel good. In fact, she feels bad. She realizes something. That she never wanted him to leave, and that she still has feelings for him? I am not sure. I can't remember if Will has some caring words for her at that point, or what happens specifically, but she changes. She becomes softer and more caring to him.

 

OK, I looked up the exchange on filmsite, here it is:

 

Helen: What are you looking at? You think I have changed? Well, what do you want? Do you want me to help you? Do you want me to ask Frank to let you go? Do you want me to beg for you? Well, I would not do it. I would not lift a finger for you.

Kane: I came to tell ya he was comin'. I should have figured you'd know about it.

Helen: I know about it.

Kane: I think you ought to get out of town. I might not be able to, well...anything can happen.

Helen: I'm not afraid of him.

Kane: I know you're not, but you, you know how he is.

Helen: I know how he is. Maybe he doesn't know.

Kane: He's probably got letters.

Helen: Probably. Nothing in life is free. I'm getting out. I'm packing.

Kane: That's good.

Helen: [They exchange a few words of Spanish.] Un a?o sin verte. ("One year without seeing you.")

Kane: Si, lo s?. ("Yes, I know it.")

Kane: Goodbye, Helen.

Helen: Kane, if you're smart, you will get out too.

Kane: I can't.

Helen (with understanding): I know.

 

Nothing in life is free.... meaning that she would have liked it if her relationship with Will had been untouched by the spectre of Frank Miller.... her love for Kane and her happiness with him was something she had to eventually *pay* for. Any good thing in life you must be punished for. This is why I feel that Helen's life has been very hard. And I do feel sorry for her.

 

She changes.... at the end of the exchange she says "If you are smart, you will get out too." Meaning she does care what happens to him.

[MissGoddess]

Oh gosh, Wendy, that was beautiful! You said what I think so much better than I could.

 

Excellent. I'm glad you pointed out the rise and dip in her emotional anger.

[JackFavell]

Thanks, G. very much. I am so glad you joined in this concversation, he was wearing me down.....

 

I am now reading your response to Frank in the Coop thread..... I'll be awhile because it's time for the little one to go to bed... I'll be back over there later.....

[MissGoddess]

Okay, back to Robert Ryan territory!

 

MAJOR "On Dangerous Ground" SPOILERS ahead

 

MissG wrote:

And wasn't he, in fact, going after the right person, even if it wasn't entirely clear what

kind of person it was? How was he to know, living as isolated as he and folk like him

do? He didn't have the advantages or time to better his mind so he's a man who's

going to act without reason.

 

To which FrankGrimes replied:

 

Ignorance doesn't give someone the right. You are right about the emotion. So there.

 

I agree he behaved as a simplistic, back country man. He took the law into his

own hands and that is wrong. But I understand why he did. I also think that

had he sat back, the boy might have got away and would have harmed himself

or someone else again eventually. Remember that his sister, Ida Lupino, said

she tried so hard to get the authorities to have him sent to hospital or get him help?

The authorities, it is implied, are slow and not always up to the job out there. No

wonder Bond was agitated that the killer of his child would get away scott free.

 

 

That was wonderfully said, Miss Emotional. I agree with you. But I still think Wardy's

character acts a fool. He's an "eye for an eye" character.

 

I don't see a father who lost a child and is blinded by revenge to be a fool. Dangerous

and fearful, yes, and a little to be pitied. Most to be pitied is his family.

 

You are very right about Walter Brent (Ward Bond) being the mirror image of Jim

Wilson (Robert Ryan). Each lets hate and revenge dictate their actions. Wilson's hate

and revenge is aimed at society and himself.

 

Hmmm....I didn't think of Ryan as "vengeful" so much as resentful. He was getting

filled with bitterness and hate but I didn't sense anything as specific as vengeance.

You are probably right though, because he did sort of see himself in the role of

an "avenging angel", a one-man police/executioner against the evil dregs of society.

 

I think it's the way Bond plays Walter and his get-up that makes him seem foolish and

even cartoonish to me. He actually does seem like a caricature.

 

But that's how an ignorant man on a vengeful rampage would act. Simplistic was

the word I used. Cartoonish seems to cast aspertion on Bond's acting performance

and I think he nailed the character down to the marrow. We're not supposed to

feel too much sympathy, yet nor are we to judge him out of hand (audiences back then

would NOT have judged him as today's society does, since it was still largely rural).

They would have felt some sympathy for his suspicion of the "city cops".

 

But he was hunting and he had no guarantee of his being right. He just wanted

someone to pay. That's dangerous ground.

 

This is true but he wasn't just "hunting". That means it was a game, something

done from pure blood lust. Blood lust was part of it, but it was triggered by

something really primal and hard to control. I can't think of anything harder

to control than your reaction to the murder of your kid, and the knowledge

that the people entrusted with finding him might be letting the murderer get away.

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

[CineMaven]

Nicholas Ray threw me for a loop on a coupla levels in "ON DANGEROUS GROUND." I must re-visit some of my own screen plays to see if I can take the audience's expectations and twist them around their hearts. Yay Ray! (No I didn't go to see "Rebel Without A Cause" but I'm happy to see Ann Doran in a good substantial part even if she was a grown-up who "didn't understand.").

 

As for "ON DANGEROUS GROUND": (Spoilers ahead for some of you out there but criminy... see the damned movie already why don'cha!)

 

* The boy running for his life, hunted...How am I feeling sorry for the "bad guy"??? How'd that happen to me?

 

* Ward Bond saying "He's just a boy."

 

* Ward Bond picking up the (now) dead boy and cradling him in his arms to take him back to Ida. (Whew!)

 

* The great Lupino praying over her brother. Gee.

 

* Robert Ryan's tender way of dealing with Ida Lupino. He just finished giving someone a vicious rootin'-tootin' b1tch-smackin' beatdown in the city. ("Why do you punks make me do this?!") SMACK! POW!! Now he's drinking out of teacups. ("I committed murder to get you!") And soon won't Lupino start her sadistic prison matron phase of her career where no one likes a mean prison warden? This is the same actress???)

 

I think Bernard Hermann's music pushed my emotional buttons big time.

 

My heart ached!

 

Robert Ryan is really one of the unsung greats of classic films.

[MissGoddess]

LOVED it, CinemAva. Your writing burns up the page like a hot rod!

 

How about those women in the city? The wikkid city wimmin. The way

Ryan's character wouldn't come home to dinner with his partner, so he

could relax a little and see a NORMAL home and a GOOD woman. All

he saw in the city were the bottled blonde and that frighteningly young

Lolita in the bar. By the way, in that bar there is a "cameo" by the author

of the story, A. I. Bezzeridess. Did you catch him?

[CineMaven]

Thank you so much for the compliment. As for those wikkid

city wimmins...I found Cleo Moore quite interesting. But you know

what got me? The girl behind the diner counter. Her off-handed

comment really hurt Ryan. After what she says, he decides to go

sit in the patrol car.

 

I think right then and there, he saw his chances of getting a nice

decent girl interested in him, go down the tubes. (He did try to save

that teeny bopper Lolita from the life of a barfly by making the bar-

tender toss her out).

 

And by the by...do you think Ryan spent "quality" time with Cleo Moore,

or did he just rough her up to get information?

 

P.S. You sure do hold your own in that fast & furious conversation

about "HIGH NOON: To Love, Honor and Obey." Whew! Nice!

 

Message was edited by CineMaven becuz I have to confess I don't know what A.I. Bezzerides looks like. He wrote for Stanwyck's "The Big Valley" didn't he?

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}

> Thank you so much for the compliment. As for those wikkid

> city wimmins...I found Cleo Moore quite interesting. But you know

> what got me? The girl behind the diner counter. Her off-handed

> comment really hurt Ryan. After what she says, he decides to go

> sit in the patrol car.

>

 

Oh gosh, YES, that scene really made me feel so much for Ryan.

Even though he's just gone nuts over a suspect, he manages to

put so much loneliness and anguish into his eyes at moments

like that, that I can't help but grieve for him.

 

> I think right then and there, he saw his chances of getting a nice

> decent girl interested in him, go down the tubes. (He did try to save

> that teeny bopper Lolita from the life of a barfly by making the bar-

> tender toss her out).

>

 

I did like that. And after he told the bartender off, he turns to talk

to the owner of the saloon who tries to grease his palm. This is

A.I. Bezzerides.

 

 

And here's his "resume", miss Noirista; as you can see, he did

a bit more than TV westerns and this film:

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0080135/

 

> And by the by...do you think Ryan spent "quality" time with Cleo Moore,

> or did he just rough her up to get information?

>

 

I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.

[HollywoodGolightly]

royearle (and other Robert Ryan fans!),

The CFU has just started a Robert Ryan group:

http://fan.tcm.com/_Robert-Ryan/group/102731/66470.html

[FrankGrimes]

THE SPOILER IS ON DANGEROUS GROUND

 

Ciao, Miss Gun for Hire -- Okay, I have rewatched On Dangerous Ground and,

I hate to say it, you are right and I am wrong... mostly. I hate you.

 

I agree he behaved as a simplistic, back country man. He took the law into his

own hands and that is wrong.

 

Yes. This point still remains with me, especially when you see Walter Brent (Ward

Bond) just open a car door and blast. And then he was going to slap poor Mary

(Ida Lupino). I don't care how upset you are, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

But I understand why he did.

 

I do, too. I cannot blame the fella. Even Jim (Robert Ryan) understands this. He

never thinks badly of Walter... and he could have.

 

I also think that had he sat back, the boy might have got away and would have

harmed himself or someone else again eventually. Remember that his sister, Ida

Lupino, said she tried so hard to get the authorities to have him sent to hospital

or get him help?

 

You are right. I thought Walter was right in pushing the pursuit. Sadly, his

bloodthirsty hunt for revenge cost the boy his life. He got what he wished for, and

it didn't sit well with him. I thought that was a strong message to send. And I did

love his reaction and then his actions at the end. Ward was terrific.

 

The authorities, it is implied, are slow and not always up to the job out there. No

wonder Bond was agitated that the killer of his child would get away scott free.

 

Legal justice is always a slow process. It's not about instant gratification.

 

I don't see a father who lost a child and is blinded by revenge to be a

fool. Dangerous and fearful, yes, and a little to be pitied. Most to be pitied

is his family.

 

He lost his mind. I understand why he did, but he still lost his mind. A person who

loses their mind tends to be foolish.

 

By the way, after watching it again, I thought Ward was very good throughout. It's how

the character is written that makes him sometimes a caricature of country to me. Love

Ward's fire and energy. I actually think it's one of his best performances. How's that

for winning me over?

 

Hmmm....I didn't think of Ryan as "vengeful" so much as resentful. He was

getting filled with bitterness and hate but I didn't sense anything as specific as

vengeance. You are probably right though, because he did sort of see himself

in the role of an "avenging angel", a one-man police/executioner against the

evil dregs of society.

 

Yes, you said it correctly, "avenging angel." I think Jim's lack of an escape in his

personal life has allowed for his job and its inhabitants to take control of him. The

dark has consumed him. He cannot see anymore. He's blind with rage, just as

Walter is. So what's the only way out of the dark? You gotta feel.

 

But that's how an ignorant man on a vengeful rampage would act. Simplistic was

the word I used. Cartoonish seems to cast aspertion on Bond's acting performance

and I think he nailed the character down to the marrow. We're not supposed to

feel too much sympathy, yet nor are we to judge him out of hand (audiences back then

would NOT have judged him as today's society does, since it was still largely rural).

They would have felt some sympathy for his suspicion of the "city cops".

 

As I said above, thanks to you, I do see the character differently and I really like Ward

Bond's performance. Still, I do view his character as "country cartoonish," at times.

 

This is true but he wasn't just "hunting". That means it was a game, something

done from pure blood lust. Blood lust was part of it, but it was triggered by

something really primal and hard to control. I can't think of anything harder

to control than your reaction to the murder of your kid, and the knowledge

that the people entrusted with finding him might be letting the murderer get away.

 

I believe he was hunting, looking to kill. It made me feel as if Danny (Sumner Williams)

was more like a wild animal than a human. He was being chased through the woods

and up a cliff. He was being hunted.

 

Hola, Lively Gal -- The boy running for his life, hunted...How am I feeling sorry

for the "bad guy"??? How'd that happen to me?

 

Brilliant point. It truly is amazing that we can feel for the killer of a young, innocent

girl. It does help that we never see this murder.

 

Ward Bond saying "He's just a boy."

 

A powerful line with an equally powerful delivery by Ward.

 

Ward Bond picking up the (now) dead boy and cradling him in his arms to take

him back to Ida. (Whew!)

 

Quite the turn of events. That really humanized Walter.

 

The great Lupino praying over her brother. Gee.

 

She was phenomenal. I need to watch more Ida. I have a feeling she'd become one of my

favorites. She's my kind of dame.

 

Robert Ryan's tender way of dealing with Ida Lupino. He just finished giving someone

a vicious rootin'-tootin' b1tch-smackin' beatdown in the city. ("Why do you punks make

me do this?!") SMACK! POW!! Now he's drinking out of teacups.

 

Yet another strong turnaround. There are many "play on words" that have to do

with eyes that apply here. Such as, she opened his eyes.

 

I think it's true to Jim Wilson's character because what he really wishes to do

most is protect and serve and Mary is the perfect kind of woman for him to do this

with. He's needed. I believe her being blind really helped him to relax. He becomes

all uptight around Hazel (Joan Taylor -- boy, is she pretty), but not Mary. I think getting

away from the "boys" also helps.

 

Robert Ryan is really one of the unsung greats of classic films.

 

He's awesome.

 

I should probably watch Beware, My Lovely for some more Double R and Ida.

[CineMaven]

If you don't mind Grey Goose, I'll answer you over in the Film Noir forum, 'kay.

 

Let me just say this one thing about HELEN RAMIREZ. I think I truly do understand your position on her. Does it have anything to do with her being a "wise Latina woman?" ;-) :-)

[FrankGrimes]

If you don't mind Grey Goose, I'll answer you over in the Film Noir forum, 'kay.

 

That made me laugh. I'll get with you there then. I may not be able to get there until tomorrow. I'll see what I can do. You're not going to jump me, are you?

 

Let me just say this one thing about HELEN RAMIREZ. I think I truly do

understand your position on her. Does it have anything to do with her being

a "wise Latina woman?"

 

No. It has to do with "cold" and "warm." I do not like users. I don't like it when a woman

uses a man, and really dislike it when a man uses a woman.

 

Claudia Cardinale plays a Mexican woman in The Professionals. She's full of fire

and fight and I adore her. Why? Because what she's fighting for. She's very warm to

me. I don't care what kind of ethnicity a woman is so long as she is warm to me.

 

If "Helen Ramirez" is how every "wise Latina woman" is, then I guess I wouldn't

like them. But I don't think of Latinas that way. And I don't think Helen Ramirez

is all that wise, most especially when it comes to men.

[MissGoddess]

And I'll be responding about On Dangerous Ground in the Noir forum, as well.

[MissGoddess]

November 10th TCM is devoting the daytime schedule to our boy (Imdb.com says

his birthday is the 11th, but they're notoriously unreliable):

 

6:00 AM Her Twelve Men (1954)

A dedicated teacher turns around the troublesome students at a boys' school. Cast: Greer Garson, Robert Ryan, Richard Haydn. Dir: Robert Z. Leonard. BW-91 mins, TV-G, CC

 

8:00 AM Born To Be Bad (1950)

An ambitious girl steals a rich husband but keeps her lover on the side. Cast: Joan Fontaine, Robert Ryan, Mel Ferrer. Dir: Nicholas Ray. BW-90 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

10:00 AM Best Of The Badmen (1951)

A band of notorious outlaws help a friend against a corrupt federal agent. Cast: Robert Ryan, Claire Trevor, Robert Preston. Dir: William D. Russell. C-84 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

11:30 AM Back From Eternity (1956)

When an airliner crashes in the jungle, the repaired plane can only hold five of the survivors. Cast: Robert Ryan, Anita Ekberg, Rod Steiger. Dir: John Farrow. BW-97 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

1:30 PM Racket, The (1951)

A tough cop has to fight his superiors in order to battle the mob. Cast: Robert Mitchum, Lizabeth Scott, Robert Ryan. Dir: John Cromwell. BW-89 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

3:00 PM On Dangerous Ground (1951)

A tough cop sent to help in a mountain manhunt falls for the quarry's blind sister. Cast: Ida Lupino, Robert Ryan, Ward Bond. Dir: Nicholas Ray. BW-82 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

4:30 PM Beware, My Lovely (1952)

A widow discovers her handyman is an escaped mental patient. Cast: Ida Lupino, Robert Ryan, Taylor Holmes. Dir: Harry Horner. BW-77 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

6:00 PM Clash By Night (1952)

An embittered woman seeks escape in marriage, only to fall for her husband's best friend. Cast: Barbara Stanwyck, Robert Ryan, Marilyn Monroe. Dir: Fritz Lang. BW-105 mins, TV-PG, CC, DVS

 

Oh wow...and they are also giving him the 11th daytime schedule! Two days of Robbie!!!!!

 

November 11th

 

7:00 AM Bombardier (1943)

Military officers compete for the same woman while training pilots for war. Cast: Pat O'Brien, Randolph Scott, Anne Shirley. Dir: Richard Wallace. BW-99 mins, TV-G, CC

 

9:00 AM Gangway for Tomorrow (1943)

Five people thrown together by World War II review their pasts. Cast: Robert Ryan, Margo, John Carradine. Dir: John H. Auer. BW-69 mins, TV-PG

 

10:15 AM Marine Raiders (1944)

Marine buddies training in Australia battle over love. Cast: Pat O'Brien, Robert Ryan, Ruth Hussey. Dir: Harold Schuster. BW-91 mins, TV-G

 

12:00 PM Iron Major, The (1943)

In this true story, Frank Cavanaugh proves himself as a football coach and a World War I hero. Cast: Pat O'Brien, Ruth Warrick, Robert Ryan. Dir: Ray Enright. BW-85 mins, TV-G

 

1:30 PM Tender Comrade (1943)

Lady welders pool their resources to share a house during World War II. Cast: Ginger Rogers, Robert Ryan, Ruth Hussey. Dir: Edward Dmytryk. BW-102 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

3:15 PM Berlin Express (1948)

Allied agents fight an underground Nazi group in post-war Europe. Cast: Merle Oberon, Robert Ryan, Paul Lukas. Dir: Jacques Tourneur. BW-87 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

4:45 PM Act Of Violence (1949)

An embittered veteran tracks down a POW camp informer. Cast: Van Heflin, Robert Ryan, Janet Leigh. Dir: Fred Zinnemann. BW-82 mins, TV-PG, CC

 

6:30 PM Bad Day At Black Rock (1955)

A one-armed veteran uncovers small-town secrets when he tries to visit an Asian-American war hero's family. Cast: Spencer Tracy, Robert Ryan, Anne Francis. Dir: John Sturges. C-82 mins, TV-PG, CC, Letterbox Format, DVS

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

[FrankGrimes]

Oh wow...and they are also giving him the 11th daytime schedule! Two days of Robbie!!!!!

 

Phenomenal! I'm glad they are showing the early Ryan. It's Ryan's 100th birthday, by

the way.

 

So, let's see... Gloria Grahame's day is on Thursday, Grace Kelly is "Star of the Month" in

November, and Ryan gets two day-time shifts in November. TCM Programmer has been

on it. But I'm still going to push for more film noir.

[MissGoddess]

>

> Phenomenal! I'm glad they are showing the early Ryan. It's Ryan's 100th birthday, by

> the way.

>

 

He sure wears it well.

 

> So, let's see... Gloria Grahame's day is on Thursday, Grace Kelly is "Star of the Month" in

> November, and Ryan gets two day-time shifts in November. TCM Programmer has been

> on it. But I'm still going to push for more film noir.

 

Did you notice a morning of Vivling, too????? Way to go, Charlie T and TCM!!!