Gloria Grahame a complete package

[JackFavell]

We discussed this some time ago, but I don't think Laurel is any more or less guilty than Dix is. They are both equal. Both are "_accidents_" waiting to happen. Dix is on the brink of falling into oblivion and his short fuse is going to, at the very least lose him a career at some point, if not destroy his life in a worse way.

 

I think Laurel is attracted to Dix primarily for his dangerous qualities. Once Dix proposes, Laurel becomes confused.... maybe she doesn't want him anymore? Everything pivots and changes whenthe two become engaged. Is it because of his rage and her fear? I am not so sure. Maybe it's because she cannot deal with their eventual marriage and that institution's lack of excitement. What was thrilling in man who is a casual fling is not so hot in a fiance. I think Laurel might simply be unable to commit, which is why she chose Dix in the first place. She is addicted to the thrill of the chase, but once things settle down, no matter how much she loves Dix, she can't deal with him in a long term way. Just as Dix cannot curb his violent tendencies for her. They both are equal - equal losers., unable to change.

[FrankGrimes]

Good evening, Super Charger -- Frank, just curious, how would you feel about Dix had he killed the football player? Had it not been for Laural he would have. I think we are meant to believe that. He was going to bash his head with a rock and probably over and over again just like when he was punching him.

 

That's a great point. Dix would have lost me if he had killed "Joe College." Laurel does save Dix. In fact, I think Dix viewed Laurel as his salvation. He loved her. He trusted her.

 

That Dix does not actually kill anyone does not mean that he is not capable of it. Or is it only because he would kill Laural (in the alternate ending) that you would have a different idea of Dix? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

 

I do believe Dix is capable of killing. He's a soldier. If he would have killed anyone, be it Mildred, "Joe College," or Laurel, he would have lost me. I understand anger and aggression but not killing. He's walking a very fine, grey line.

 

I would downplay the returning soldier idea. It wasn?t fully developed and it is persuasively offset by this conversation that Laural had with the agent during which the agent says, ??years ago I tried to make him go and see a psychiatrist. I though he?d kill me. Always violent. Why it?s as much a part of him as the color of his eyes, the shape of his head. He?s Dix Steele, and if you want him, you gotta take it all, the bad with the good. I?ve taken it for 20 years, and I?d do it again.? This speech reveals that Dix?s psychological and volatility problems predate the war by many years. But there were several references to the war so it may have a factor, but I don?t think it explains Dix.

 

I don't believe Dix being a returning solider "explains him." I just think Dix represents one attitude and "Junior" and "Joe College" represent another. I believe Dix is struggling with today, just as Charlie Waterman is. They are both killing themselves, just in different ways.

 

It's my belief that Dix always had a violent temper, but it has been heightened since his return from war. He's frustrated... with many things. Then along comes Laurel. The power of woman.

 

The background of these fellows provide capsule back stories but are not developed at all. More important to me is what actually happens in the present moment. The ?junior? is a loudmouth and bully but what sets Dix off is not that he was being disrespected but because the junior put a cigarette ash in the thespian?s drink. We already know and learn more later how kind Dix is to the thespian and Dix didn?t like it. I think Dix was reacting specifically to that. Your screencap shows that too.

 

Absolutely. Dix is reacting to "Junior's" utter disrepect to his friend, Charlie. If you disrespect a man's woman, his family, or his friends, you disrespect him. Again, I think this is a commentary. Charlie represents a former "soldier," who fought many a "battle" long before "Junior" ever came to be. And "Junior" was handed his crown. He didn't fight for it. He married into it.

 

And here's what others at "Paul's" think of "Junior":

 

 

And to whatever brat status the college star qualifies, I believe, Frank, that Dix was entirely in the wrong in every way. As Rohanaka points out Dix practically killed the kid and ruined his car. The kid should be angry. He was lucky to be alive and we know how much $200 was in his day. If he was acting disrespectful and disdainful towards Dix, he had every right to be. Dix deserved it. Or maybe just me.

 

Dix was in the wrong. He was driving like a mad man and he could have killed "Joe College." But, to me, "Joe College's" reaction was just as reckless.

 

I think I tend to be a lot tougher on Dix than you do, Frank.

 

And I understand why you and others would be tough on Dix. He's violent. His kind of destruction is visceral. But what causes Dix to react this way? Is there latent destruction to be found? I guess what I'm attempting to say is, "I get Dix's anger."

 

And yet it's not as if Dix is walking out in the way we normally think, as if he has made a conscious decision that he wants to move on, ho-hum, etc. He walks out in absolute ignominy. He has gone to far and even he knows it.

 

That's not how I took his departue. I thought he felt disappointed and betrayed. His heart was broken. He thought he had found his true love.

 

And if poor Laural is terribly upset it?s because she has very nearly been murdered. And she is unhappy because she really loved him though even she knew in those final moments it would never work. Dix is just too sick.

 

And that's not how I took Laurel's end. I thought she felt she had lost her love forever. She wouldn't have mentioned the word "love" if she didn't feel a sense of loss and regret.

 

I don?t think I really buy this idea but?maybe finding out that he was no longer a suspect changes everything for him. He no longer needs Laural, after all. She was originally an alibi and maybe she?s nothing to him now. The screenplay has been accepted and according to his agent success is more important to Dix than anything else. That?s why the agent wanted to get the screenplay to the boss, because if it was accepted, then Dix would be happy and not be so prone to violence. He says that to Laural in the conversation they had in her apartment.

 

I actually disagree with Mel (Art Smith), I think Dix was in love with Laurel. She wasn't just an alibi to Dix, she was his reason. She freed film. I believe he felt that finding her was his greatest success.

 

Frank, I?m totally lost. Why does Laural need a spanking? Maybe you are making a joke?

 

Ohhh, no. No joke at all.

 

I think you see something in Laural that I?m not even aware of. Uh-oh, Laffite?s missed something again. Dix behaves badly in those other instances already discussed but the way he comes to treat Laural is particularly disturbing to me. He becomes a downright bully. Coming up behind her in the kitchen and holding her in a vice-like grip and telling her a simple yes or no would do (with regard to whether she will marry him or not). I mean, honestly, what a bastard! The Reign of Terror against her in full swing. Uh-oh, I?ve done it now Am I missing something about Laural?

 

I never thought Dix was rough with Laurel until the very end. He crossed a serious line then. But, before that, his physicality with Laurel was loving. I do think Nick Ray had Dix hold Laurel's throat while kissing a couple times to give us the feeling of his being a threat. I believe we're supposed to doubt him throughout, ala Johnny (Cary Grant) in Suspicion.

 

I'll try to post my Laurel thoughts later tonight. The transition is perfect. Here is the end and the beginning:

 

[FrankGrimes]

A nice evening to you, Jackie -- We discussed this some time ago, but I don't think Laurel is any more or less guilty than Dix is. They are both equal.

 

Within their relationship, I believe Laurel is more guilty than Dix.

 

Both are "accidents" waiting to happen. Dix is on the brink of falling into oblivion and his short fuse is going to, at the very least lose him a career at some point, if not destroy his life in a worse way.

 

Dix is certainly his own worst enemy. One of these times, his anger is going to kill him.

 

I think Laurel is attracted to Dix primarily for his dangerous qualities. Once Dix proposes, Laurel becomes confused.... maybe she doesn't want him anymore? Everything pivots and changes whenthe two become engaged. Is it because of his rage and her fear? I am not so sure. Maybe it's because she cannot deal with their eventual marriage and that institution's lack of excitement. What was thrilling in man who is a casual fling is not so hot in a fiance. I think Laurel might simply be unable to commit, which is why she chose Dix in the first place. She is addicted to the thrill of the chase, but once things settle down, no matter how much she loves Dix, she can't deal with him in a long term way. Just as Dix cannot curb his violent tendencies for her. They both are equal - equal losers., unable to change.

 

I believe you are right, Laurel is frightened. Not only of Dix, but of commitment. When it gets serious, she gets scared. "Is this what I really want?" She goes from a woman who knows what she wants to a woman who doesn't. Dix and Laurel don't match because Dix is all about commitment and Laurel is not. I find it fascinating that it's the woman who is afraid of commitment, as it's usually seen as man who is this. And I'm not saying Laurel is wrong to fear commitment to Dix. In fact, I agree with her. But what Laurel does prior to reaching this decision is where my problems with her lie.

 

How do, Lois -- I'm so glad you posted that screencap!! I had forgotten to mention that when I saw In a Lonely Place recently on the big screen, that scene struck me differently because I noticed how the kid was actually a hot head himself, who provoked an actual fight, and that before that, Dix said "take it easy".

 

Yes. I think any of us would have been extremely upset about being involved in an auto accident. But would we react like "Joe College"? I know I didn't. Dix would flip out, but I don't think his reason would be a "paint job."

 

And good point about the paint job. I thought that was a neat little way of the director showing where "priorities" lay in the brave new world. Material things were becoming more important than human beings.

 

You said it much better than I. "Joe College" looks down upon Dix, calling his car a "landing barge." He's worried about his car. That's his "image." It's amazing how prevalent that attitude is today in American society.

 

One of the more interesting aspects of Ray's Rebel Without a Cause is how he uses automobiles almost as symbols of power and competitiveness among young males.

 

Hmmmmm, now that's very interesting. I've yet to see that film.

 

Dix doesn't come from that world. His value lies within himself, and in his talent, not what he owns or anything outside of himself. Hearing this kid whine about a $200 paint job must have really made him flip.

 

Exactly. Dix isn't like "Joe College" or "Junior." There is a rift here. Dix is also willing to fight, while the others are all about talk. Even the first guy in the film challenges Dix, then drives off. They're all talk, no action. They're me!

 

And I stole it from Bogart himself. In the movie Sabrina, his character refers to himself as "Joe College with a touch of arthritis."

 

You're sneaking in some films on me.

 

Charlie's character has pathos, because he is resigned. Dix is harder to get your arms around because he's a little younger and a whole lot feistier about this situation...he's not ready to take things laying down. If they're going to take him out he's going to get in his punches first, is what I see. Both may end up at the bottom of the bottle.

 

That's a terrific point. Dix is the mid while Charlie is the older. One is angry with today, the other is resigned (perfect word).

 

Yes, until she breaks his trust, she reaches him. That's why I think a stronger girl than her could help Dix get to where he would have more consistent hold on his behavior.

 

But even at the end, when Laurel tells him to stop, he listens.

 

If she were more confrontational, or upfront, he wouldn't have flipped out I'm sure.

 

I'm sure Dix would not have lost his cool with Laurel if she were honest with him. I think a man and a woman in love wish for the other to believe in them, to trust them. They are to support each other. They're not to sneak around behind the other's back, to be unfaithful.

 

The timing of their relationship is also part of the problem. He's under supsicion of murder and his entire career rests on whether he can produce a filmable screenplay. His whole world is doubting him and in walks a woman who restores his sense of balance, until....

 

Very nicely said! Laurel changes his entire outlook on life and then...

 

So Laurel is dependent on her in a way. She is the first person she calls when she plans to get away. Talk about from the frying pan into the fire.

 

You got it. Martha is her safety blanket. "I told you that you would come back to me, angel." Martha saps Laurel's strength.

 

Wow! For the first time I actually understand what those lines mean...when I was watching it at the theater and every other time I've seen it, I felt those words had to mean something more. How stupid I didn't realize it's very simply about Laurel and Dix. Dix is transparent, Laurel is harder to read. And she does sort of "compile evidence" against Dix without his knowledge, just as she can watch what he's doing without his knowing.

 

That's right. Effie (you gotta love that little wink) needs to clean both of their apartments. Jackie is right, both have issues. Dix's problems are glaringly obvious and easy to see, but Laurel's problems are more hidden. Dix is external, Laurel is internal.

 

[CineMaven]

...Nobody knows, how dry I-- oh hello. May I respond to a couple of points? Thank yew.

 

Frank Grimes writes: ?...So tough boy likes to talk tough but he sure can't back it up. He challenged Dix and got his just desserts. I have no sympathy for ?Joe College.? He ?ought to.? Yeah, you ought to. And if he would have said, ?you could have killed me,? I would be for him. But he was worried about his precious paint job. The heck with that.?

 

I think $200 was a lot of money for a college kid in the 1950?s. And you know guys and their car. But I agree, if you're gonna make a move on Bogie, be prepared to get an whompin'!

 

But Laurel has her own issues and I believe she is the most guilty character in the film. Dix is reactive. He doesn't just lose his lid over nothing. Something has to set him off. Laurel lights his fuse.

 

The most guilty charac...??? Oooof!

 

?Dix is all about commitment and Laurel is not. I find it fascinating that it's the woman who is afraid of commitment, as it's usually seen as man who is this. And I'm not saying Laurel is wrong to fear commitment to Dix. In fact, I agree with her. But what Laurel does prior to reaching this decision is where my problems with her lie.?

 

Laurel afraid of commitment? The girl made coffee...eggs...whoopee, she typed his script (with a manual typewriter no less). Wait, you haven?t seen ?Rebel Without a Cause?? What am I doin' here? Okay, I?m drinking while I read.

 

MissGoddess writes: "The timing of their relationship is also part of the problem. He's under supsicion of murder and his entire career rests on whether he can produce a filmable screenplay. His whole world is doubting him and in walks a woman who restores his sense of balance, until...

 

...he goes completely bonkers and out of control and tries to kill her b'cuz of his own distrust and paranoia. His screenplay will be a successful film, but Dix will not be happy b?cuz he lost the woman he loved. He was a dead man walking. Is that how that sentence is finished? ;-)

 

JackFavell writes: ?I think Laurel might simply be unable to commit, which is why she chose Dix in the first place. She is addicted to the thrill of the chase, but once things settle down, no matter how much she loves Dix, she can't deal with him in a long term way. Just as Dix cannot curb his violent tendencies for her. They both are equal - equal losers., unable to change.?

 

I must watch ?IN A LONELY PLACE? again. I didn?t pick up any of that. I saw Dix and Laurel meet under distasteful circumstances. There was a sexy edge to their insolence. They flirted and hooked up. He?s in show business so their days and nights would be filled with nightclubs and movie sets and parties with the creme de la creme of Hollywood. But Dix reveals his temper. It was more than Laurel could handle. She should have talked to him, but we all know in real life that if we think we?re going to talk to a hothead when he?s calm think he?ll understand his behavior is not good, that would be unrealistic. You?ll find yourself in a fight. He'd be very defensive. "Problem? What problem? WHADDYA TALKIN' ABOUT? I DON'T GET ANGRY!!!" Addicted to the thrill of the chase? The girl looked like she was ready to settle in and settle down with Dix.

 

Ooohhhhh, if I ever learn how to create screencaps...everybody?s in trouble. In lieu of that skill, I submit this from YouTube:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAnSyQA_fT4

 

Listen to the words. Now where's that bottle.

[laffite]

*_Frank_*

 

*That's a great point. Dix would have lost me if he had killed "Joe College." Laurel does save Dix. In fact, I think Dix viewed Laurel as his salvation. He loved her. He trusted her.*

 

It?s ironic that this is where she stopped trusting him and when the fear set in. Once that fear set in, trust was more difficult to treat in the story. And if he did trust her then I wish he had stopped and listened to her before getting in the car and driving recklessly. She tried to talk to him but he wouldn?t listen.

 

*I do believe Dix is capable of killing. He's a soldier. If he would have killed anyone, be it Mildred, "Joe College," or Laurel, he would have lost me. I understand anger and aggression but not killing. He's walking a very fine, grey line.*

 

We know that he is capable of killing because he's a soldier but here we're concerned whether he will kill because he acts like a maniac. He walks a fine line, and yet if he crosses the line he will be lost on you. He comes so close to doing so and is so capable of doing so and yet you so adamantly stay on his side. You view of him is constantly in jeopardy. Does it make you nervous

 

*just think Dix represents one attitude and "Junior" and "Joe College" represent another. I believe Dix is struggling with today, just as Charlie Waterman is. They are both killing themselves, just in different ways.*

 

I admit that these ?attitude? people did not register with me. In any case, I wonder if Dix is so volatile that he is even capable of making distinctions between who **** him off. If it had not been Joe College and if there was no mention of paint job, would Dix had reacted differently, say, to someone else? I wish they had toned down Dix volatility so I could say yes. But he is so out of control I think he would have turned on anyone. That doesn?t discount the significance of these ?attitude? people, they are nice touches, but they would mean more if Dix was not so over the top angry.

 

*It's my belief that Dix always had a violent temper, but it has been heightened since his return from war. He's frustrated... with many things. Then along comes Laurel. The power of woman.*

 

But not powerful enough. I think he loved her all right but he is too sick to show it and gain her trust. He made her afraid of him. As to the anger, his agent made it clear that he tried to get Dix to get professional help a long time before the war. I don't find a reason to disbelieve him.

 

*Absolutely. Dix is reacting to "Junior's" utter disrepect to his friend, Charlie. If you disrespect a man's woman, his family, or his friends, you disrespect him. Again, I think this is a commentary. Charlie represents a former "soldier," who fought many a "battle" long before "Junior" ever came to be. And "Junior" was handed his crown. He didn't fight for it. He married into it.*

 

Here again, I missed these fine points. This was an early scene and I didn?t get the details. Dix waited a long time before he went off on Junior though. That?s pretty good for him.

 

*Dix was in the wrong. He was driving like a mad man and he could have killed "Joe College." But, to me, "Joe College's" reaction was just as reckless.*

 

I would disagree. Joe College reaction was a normal one and what he did should not be compared with driving recklessly and almost killing someone. He was justified in saying anything he pleased. It doesn?t sound logical to me that if JoeC had said, ?You could?ve killed me,? that Dix would?ve said, ?Oh sorry.? He should have been sorry anyway. Still, if the movie wants to make a point that Dix reacted the way he did because Joe College represents an ?attitude? antithetical to Dix to explain Dix punching him out, I?m fine with that, but it?s not entirely realistic to me, considering Dix?s temperament. He would've punched anybody out IMO.

 

*That's not how I took his departue. I thought he felt disappointed and betrayed. His heart was broken. He thought he had found his true love.*

 

Given that then, he might?ve said something at that point. He might have pointed out to her his newly found innocence and tried to convince her that he would never do that again. A few minutes prior to strangling her he sat in a chair in her room and said to her regarding that the restaurant booth incident, ?It will never happen again.? Why didn?t he do it here? I think it?s because he knew he had gone to far and knew in his heart that it was over. Otherwise, it would not have been like him to just walk away from her.

 

*And if poor Laural is terribly upset it?s because she has very nearly been murdered. And she is unhappy because she really loved him though even she knew in those final moments it would never work. Dix is just too sick.*

 

*And that's not how I took Laurel's end. I thought she felt she had lost her love forever. She wouldn't have mentioned the word "love" if she didn't feel a sense of loss and regret.*

 

I agree there was a sense of loss and remorse. But she felt she had to break it off. She is the one who said, ?Yesterday, it would have meant something?? She willingly gave him up because she had enough. She couldn't take it. But it was still a loss.

 

*I never thought Dix was rough with Laurel until the very end. He crossed a serious line then. But, before that, his physicality with Laurel was loving. I do think Nick Ray had Dix hold Laurel's throat while kissing a couple times to give us the feeling of his being a threat.*

 

There were a couple of times like that but I don?t feel those were even necessarily threats. But I think he was hard on her and threatening when asking her to marry him. She was obviously stressed and tried to put him off but he would not listen. He held her throat and demanded only a yes or no answer. She said yes out of fear. This was terrible. If he loved her and trusted her then why can't he ever talk to her. Instead he ignored any attempt on her part to say anything and was just interested in controlling her. I agree he may have thought he loved her and perhaps he did in his own way, but he may have been really too sick to love anyone, at least properly. So I am a little at a loss how Laurel can be blamed on the trust issue.

 

--

 

Frank, I think you make your points well and though I may have the minority view on some of these points I still, at least now, stand by them. I do seem to have a fixation on the extent of Dix's anger problems, make no mistake...in fact I believe he is a bona fide mental case, though I say that guardedly, haha, since I am not a doctor. I think his volatility dominates the film beginning to end and I think it hurts some of the other issues along the way.

 

The question of trust is sabotaged at the moment when it is tested. Remember the great scene at the bar. This might have been their finest hour. Then comes the beach party and the mention of Laural's visit to the Inspector's office (She did not want to go there BTW and I believe anyway that her reluctance to tell him was natural at that point, also to point out that her fear of him had not set in but shortly would). Dix gets angry and jumps in the car with Laural and we have the Joe College incident. This incident is so jarring and upsetting to Laural that she begins to doubt him and to fear him. Look at her face after she stops him from killing JoeC. From this point on Laural practically lives in fear of him. She thinks that maybe he killed Mildred. She has that conversation with the friend, "But you aren't laughing," etc. I think it's curious that if Ray, for instance, wanted this story to be about trust, he might have been more subtle and not had the JoeC incident occur so soon. The fear and doubt of Dix instilled in Laural by that effectively precludes any real look at trust. From that point on Laural's fear is justified. And with that kind of fear, trust cannot be sustained. Again, Laural cannot be faulted on the trust issue, IMO

 

I believe that this story, unwittingly or not, is about Dix's anger and what it might or might not make him do. The original scheme of the story is simple. Dix is angry from the get-go, he has the meeting with Mildred, she gets murdered. Did he kill her? We know his anger. Laural provides an alibi. They fall in love. And the question becomes will he now kill her? Did he kill Mildred and will he now kill her? This was the original story. They even had the ending that he actually does kill her. Now I don't know whether that was the original ending or maybe they tried that second but it is at least possible that many of the scenes in this movie were shot with the idea that he would kill her in the end. To keep that tension the audience had to be continually reminded that Dix was a volatile and angry person and was capable of murder. And we see this anger contunually, especially in the last third of the film, beginning with the JoeC incident and the beginning of Laural's fear.

 

I mention this---and I realize rather crudely and simply---to suggest that perhaps this is why that the most dominate theme, despite all the other interesting things that have been discussed about this story, is still Dix's volatile nature, and why he comes across almost psychotic at times. And i wonder if this story and movie might have been so much better if thay had not had that original mental set (which, let's not forget, was adapted from a story about a psychotic killer) and rather came up with an original story that could have toned down Dix's temperament and therefore been able to properly treat issues having to do with the relationships and trust, etc. It might have been better. The fact is, however, that it's this maniacally, temperamental Dixon Steele that makes this movie so difficult for me. He is just simply over the top.

[MissGoddess]

The T-Mave Writes...he goes completely bonkers and out of control and tries to kill her b'cuz of his own distrust and paranoia. His screenplay will be a successful film, but Dix will not be happy b?cuz he lost the woman he loved. He was a dead man walking. Is that how that sentence is finished?

 

Now, see, I thought the movie made it clear there was serious doubt cast on whether Dix was going to pull through with a filmable screenplay....that his career was in jeopardy and new, younger guys were waiting in the wings to take his place. That's what I got out of the first part of the movie, with regard to Dix and this is what I was referring to---not the last scenes when we finally learn they love his script. At that point, yes, I agree, it doesn't matter to him anymore. Something much more than an alibi was lost to him.

 

She should have talked to him, but we all know in real life that if we think we?re going to talk to a hothead when he?s calm think he?ll understand his behavior is not good, that would be unrealistic.

 

I think that may depend on how you approach the person, as well as how intelligent that person is you're talking to. I've known lots of hot-heads, I'm a bit of one myself, and often they calm more quickly when someone they trust reasons with them---without any attitude or self righteousness, of course. If you're reasonable and calm, I think an intelligent man like Dixon Steele would be reachable. Laurel did reach him and calmed him more than once even when he was in the midst of a temper. Let alone when he was calm. The movie showed this. The Dix I saw on screen wasn't quite the maniac that others see him as, if he was, I just don't think I'd give a whoop about this movie because then it would be a bore about a one-note bore who just likes pushing people around. That wasn't Jim Wilson and I don't think it was Dix Steele. I think they are shown to have provocations---their violence is just as unacceptable no matter how provoked, but that's the movie---it's not drawing any bold lines---and like lafitte commented to FrankGrimes, the lines are drawn very fine and precariously. Deliberately so, I believe. We're supposed to be uneasy about it all.

[JackFavell]

I love that song! Barbara Lynn is my new favorite.

 

Hope you are feeling OK this morning after your night out........... I'm sending you a nice relaxing prairie oyster to scorch your windpipe and get you back on your feet. Or you can just take my man here instead. I know I would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lafitte - you make some great points - so much so that I have to go back and rewatch. Maybe I am simply reading too much into the movie....

[laffite]

*If you're reasonable and calm, I think an intelligent man like Dixon Steele would be reachable. Laurel did reach him and calmed him more than once even when he was in the midst of a temper. Let alone when he was calm. The movie showed this. The Dix I saw on screen wasn't quite the maniac that others see him as, if he was, I just don't think I'd give a whoop about this movie because then it would be a bore about a one-note bore who just likes pushing people around.*

 

Hi Goddess, if I may...

 

The JoeCollege incident is case in point where Dix listened to Laural but even he was able to realize (apparently) that killing someone would ruin his life. And the exigencies of the plot required that he not do that. That was a big event in the movie and and a quirky one.

 

But Dix was approached by Laural?calmly too. On the sofa just prior to the kitchen scene (I wonder if Bogie ever learned to cut a grapefruit, yike!) he casually mentions that Effie, the housekeeper, says that they should get married (Laural?s face stiffens). Then the conversation actually goes elsewhere they repair to the living room and sit on the couch. She CALMLY says to him that maybe they shouldn?t, ??rush into anything.?

 

Here?s what he says:

 

?Who said anything about rushing into anything. I thought if you could give an answer in the next 10 seconds, I?d go right out and buy a ring and we could have a little engagement party at Paul?s and invite a few select friends and enemies, take a plane to Las Vegas around midnight and be married??

 

Ten seconds! That?s almost comical but it says something about Dix. Watch how he fumbles and fidgets with his hands. It?s like he did in The Caine Mutiny only his hand are empty. I think he is being represented a somebody who is losing it. Laural is so alarmed she gets up in what could also be funny, ?The coffee!? she says when the perc goes off, using as this an excuse to get up from the sofa and go to the kitchen. He looks at her as she goes off as if he just doesn?t get it. Then he follows her to the kitchen and extracts a yes to marriage without the slightest interest why she is acting the way she or what she might be thinking.

 

Dix is ?intelligent? and certainly not ?a one-note bore,? but he, at least at this point, is not normal. He is not approachable. He was normal and quite charming earlier on when he was writing his screenplay with Laural by his side and that wonderful scene a the bar where they were so one with each other.

 

But from JoeCollege on he changed and so did Laural. He veered toward the maniacal and she toward fear. The story is that we are supposed to be on pins and needles on whether he was going to end up killing her and whether or not he killed Mildred always in the back of our minds. Any talk of trust or even their relationship, whether he is approachable, whether he can be reformed, doesn?t even seem to me be germane to the story anymore. There is enough residual interest with these things to keep us thinking but the movie at this point has become more of a thriller than anything else.

 

(BTW, Dix did not have her by the throat as I think I said above to Frank in that kitchen scene, he was holding her firmly by the shoulders, not quite so bad but still a little intrusive considering you're asking somebody to marry you)

//

[MissGoddess]

Bonjour M. le pirate!

 

...He looks at her as she goes off as if he just doesn?t get it. Then he follows her to the kitchen and extracts a yes to marriage without the slightest interest why she is acting the way she or what she might be thinking...

 

Now I see that scene quite differently. What I see and feel is what I think Dix instantly senses: something was wrong with Laurel, something had changed in Laurel's behavior toward him. You can see the actual worry enter his face...his words are a cover for a mounting fear that I can palpably feel...he's confused because he's sensing she's pulling back and he doesn't know yet why, but I think he suspects. At any rate, he suspects the love and happiness he finally found is suddenly not as sure in his hand, it's starting to slip through his fingers like sand. Laurel is very edgy even before Dix goes with her to the kitchen. We, the audience, already are privy to her fears and plans but Dix isn't, he's just sensing that the rug's about to be pulled from underneath him.

 

I actually feel for both of them in this sequence. I understand her nervousness, but she doesn't seem to even consider for one second laying her cards on the table and telling him what's going on. This is the time to do it and do it without that almost hysterical fear. I think he deserves that much. Any fiance deserves that. She's about to run out with no explanation beyond a letter. It's Ilsa's letter at the train all over again, lol.

 

...Dix is ?intelligent? and certainly not ?a one-note bore,? but he, at least at this point, is not normal. He is not approachable. He was normal and quite charming earlier on when he was writing his screenplay with Laural by his side and that wonderful scene a the bar where they were so one with each other.

 

But I think he is normal and very approachable until someone pulls a switch on him. I would approach him. Mel approaches him, even his ex-girlfriend does. If you look closely, he actually has provocation before his outbursts...his girl is backing out, everyone's suspecting him of murder and he can't trust anybody. I don't think it's strictly correct to say this is paranoia on his part because all these things are in fact happening to him, he's not imagining these things. A paranoiac imagines people are plotting against him, when in fact they aren't.

 

But from JoeCollege on he changed and so did Laural. He veered toward the maniacal and she toward fear. The story is that we are supposed to be on pins and needles on whether he was going to end up killing her and whether or not he killed Mildred always in the back of our minds. Any talk of trust or even their relationship, whether he is approachable, whether he can be reformed, doesn?t even seem to me be germane to the story anymore. There is enough residual interest with these things to keep us thinking but the movie at this point has become more of a thriller than anything else.

 

Are you 100% sure "from JoeCollege on he changed"? Because I think Dix never changed really from start to finish, except for the brief span "when you loved me." However, things did happen to him and events began to pile up and yes, he did flip over them...but they were legitimate provocations, it's just the degree of his reaction is extreme and unacceptable. However this is still not being a mental case, this is having no boundaries with his violent impulses. I don't think he's nuts. You know who's nuts? Geoffrey Carroll (Humphrey Bogart in The Two Mrs Carrolls). Now that's a character you can compare to Dix Steele and see quite plainly the differences between them. Dix is nowhere near like the truly insane Carroll, and Bogart isn't investing this much complexity and nuance in a character who's just a stock thriller villain. Nor would director Nicholas Ray call In a Lonely Place a "very personal film" to him if it were just a thriller. Peter Godfrey can say that about his work on The Two Mrs Carrolls, that's a real thriller with a violent and truly crazy Bogie. The differences are quite striking.

 

(BTW, Dix did not have her by the throat as I think I said above to Frank in that kitchen scene, he was holding her firmly by the shoulders, not quite so bad but still a little intrusive considering you're asking somebody to marry you)

 

I think a fiance (especially one who presumably has been intimate with his girl already) can put his hands on her shoulders with impunity. I think maybe seeing Dix simply as a maniac might prompt one to read too much into his every gesture, and this is may be what the director is playing with. Suddenly, everything Dix says and does is questionable, and I can't help but feel terrible for the guy. I suspect Ray could be playing with the audience, I think, as opposed to just spoon feeding them stock thriller dramatics. He knows we're all probably going to be second guessing him if not downright fearing him but to me, if Dix has been misrepresented the phone call at the end packs a HUGE wallop....it's not as deeply thoughtful an impact if he just happened not be guilty of that particular incident, but we leave assuming he's still a mental case. I think, and again this is all just how I see this movie, Dix is meant to be seen at the finale as the most tragic figure, principally for losing Laurel, but also for a kind of betrayal to him in general by all who were close to him.

[laffite]

Bonjour Miss Goddess

 

*Now I see that scene quite differently. What I see and feel is what I think Dix instantly senses: something was wrong with Laurel, something had changed in Laurel's behavior toward him. You can see the actual worry enter his face...his words are a cover for a mounting fear that I can palpably feel...he's confused because he's sensing she's pulling back and he doesn't know yet why, but I think he suspects.*

 

That's not bad, cinematically, at least. I can see how it can be read that way. But it doesn't quite come across that way to me.

 

*I think a fiance (especially one who presumably has been intimate with his girl already) can put his hands on her shoulders with impunity.*

 

Of course. I was referring to _how_ he did it. It seemed a threatening, vice-like grip with the intent to intimidate.

 

*But I think he is normal and very approachable until someone pulls a switch on him. I would approach him. Mel approaches him, even his ex-girlfriend does.*

 

Miss Goddess, I needed to check myself. Here?s what I wrote:

 

?Dix is ?intelligent? and certainly not ?a one-note bore?, but he, _at least at this point,_ is not normal. He is not approachable. He was normal and quite charming earlier on when he was writing his screenplay with Laural by his side and that wonderful scene a the bar where they were so one with each other.?

 

Please note emphasis. I was referring to a specific time and specifically to Laural, though perhaps not clearly.

 

*Are you 100% sure "from JoeCollege on he changed"?*

 

No. Good catch! Laural?s fear, yes.

 

(?but he snowballed a little at the end)

 

*However, things did happen to him and events began to pile up and yes, he did flip over them...but they were legitimate provocations, it's just the degree of his reaction is extreme and unacceptable. However this is still not being a mental case, this is having no boundaries with his violent impulses*

 

I'm an idiot for throwing around these medical terms. I have learned something. Don't do it. And you are right to call me on them. I haven?t seen The Two Miss Carrolls but I can tell you that I do not believe Dix is ?insane.? And that?s at least one word I haven?t used so far. But I have used a few others and probably carelessly so. Dix?s behaviour conjures up certain words that are used in general conversation (Laural calls Dix a maniac twice, for instance) and I have used them in the same sense, or at least intended to. Maybe we can we agree that he has a severe behavioral problem? I don?t know what?s wrong with Dix in a clinical sense, though I think something is. Your last thought, ?However this is still not being a mental case, this is having no boundaries with his violent impulses,? is interesting. I guess it depends on definitions.

 

*Nor would director Nicholas Ray call In a Lonely Place a "very personal film" to him if it were just a thriller.*

 

It is not a thriller, Miss Goddess, I agree. Please allow me to quote myself. What I wrote was ??but the movie _at this point_ has become more of a thriller than anything else,? referring only to the latter part of the movie and whether Dix would kill Laural in the end. Again emphasis.

 

*I think maybe seeing Dix simply as a maniac might prompt one to read too much into his every gesture, and this is may be what the director is playing with. Suddenly, everything Dix says and does is questionable, and I can't help but feel terrible for the guy. I suspect Ray could be playing with the audience, I think, as opposed to just spoon feeding them stock thriller dramatics. He knows we're all probably going to be second guessing him if not downright fearing him but to me, if Dix has been misrepresented the phone call at the end packs a HUGE wallop....it's not as deeply thoughtful an impact if he just happened not be guilty of that particular incident, but we leave assuming he's still a mental case. I think, and again this is all just how I see this movie, Dix is meant to be seen at the finale as the most tragic figure, principally for losing Laurel, but also for a kind of betrayal to him in general by all who were close to him.*

 

That?s a nice paragraph. Food for thought.

 

//

[CineMaven]

MILDRED ATKINSON IS A HUMAN MacGUFFIN!!

 

Hi there.Woweee! Look at the conversation Nicholas Ray is provoking in a couple of filmbuffs.

 

The Dix I saw on screen wasn't quite the maniac that others see him as, if he was, I just don't think I'd give a whoop about this movie because then it would be a bore about a one-note bore who just likes pushing people around. That wasn't Jim Wilson and I don't think it was Dix Steele. I think they are shown to have provocations---their violence is just as unacceptable no matter how provoked, but that's the movie---it's not drawing any bold lines---and like lafitte commented to FrankGrimes, the lines are drawn very fine and precariously. Deliberately so, I believe. We're supposed to be uneasy about it all.

 

I never thought of Jim Wilson. What an excellent double-feature this would make Ms. G. Films showing two men with violent tempers. One man is saved by love, the other man...perhaps betrayed by love? (I'd be very nervous about putting Ida's character with Dixon...and Laurel with Jim? Well...he just might beat the crap outta her. I kind of have a feeling that Gloria brings that out in a man).

 

??

 

Now I see that scene quite differently. What I see and feel is what I think Dix instantly senses: something was wrong with Laurel, something had changed in Laurel's behavior toward him. You can see the actual worry enter his face...his words are a cover for a mounting fear that I can palpably feel...he's confused because he's sensing she's pulling back and he doesn't know yet why, but I think he suspects. At any rate, he suspects the love and happiness he finally found is suddenly not as sure in his hand, it's starting to slip through his fingers like sand. Laurel is very edgy even before Dix goes with her to the kitchen. We, the audience, already are privy to her fears and plans but Dix isn't, he's just sensing that the rug's about to be pulled from underneath him.

 

This is a great explication of this scene, MissGoddess. I would agree with your re-cap. Looks like the audience has been given more information than Dixon has.

 

I actually feel for both of them in this sequence. I understand her nervousness, but she doesn't seem to even consider for one second laying her cards on the table and telling him what's going on. This is the time to do it and do it without that almost hysterical fear. I think he deserves that much. Any fiance deserves that. She's about to run out with no explanation beyond a letter. It's Ilsa's letter at the train all over again, lol.

 

Oh no...not the letter!!! Yeah, Laurel could have approached him. I also think Dix could have said to her at some point in the movie: "Listen, Laurel, I know I fly off the handle at times. I'm sorry. I've got to get a handle on it. Perhaps if you stick by me, I can see that psychiatrist Mel told me about a coupla years ago. I love you and I don't want to lose you. Will you...um...will you uh, give me a chance to get help?"

 

But I think he is normal and very approachable until someone pulls a switch on him. I would approach him. Mel approaches him, even his ex-girlfriend does. If you look closely, he actually has provocation before his outbursts...his girl is backing out, everyone's suspecting him of murder and he can't trust anybody. I don't think it's strictly correct to say this is paranoia on his part because all these things are in fact happening to him, he's not imagining these things. A paranoiac imagines people are plotting against him, when in fact they aren't.

 

I withdraw my charge of "paranoia" on him. You're so right in its definition and that wasn't Dix's situation at all. He certainly unnerved people. (I feel with his marriage with Bacall, Humphrey Bogart found the peace and serenity, lover, playmate, pal that he wanted. Very lucky man).

 

It's so hard to be a writer. You've got to create dramatic tensions between characters that hopefully make sense and are humanly psychologically sound and believable...WHILE keeping the plot moving forward.

 

Folks...what interesting twists and turns this conversation on "IN A LONELY PLACE" is taking. It's been a lovely, interesting, thought-provoking read. I've just ordered "The Far Country." The DVD's at the post office. Let me go to the P.O., watch the film and see what havoc I might wreak over in the Western forum.

[rohanaka]

Wow.. I was busy all day yesterday... and this morning I was out marching w/ a bunch of little girls from our church's scouting troop in a Veterans' Day Parade (SALUTE to all you folks who serve) and I come back now and just LOOK at all the cool stuff going on in here!! ha. (did I mention WOW??) ha.

 

But I am so far behind now that by the time I get a chance to read through all of what I am sure are some really good insights here.... I will be even FURTHER behind than I am. But I will try to get to it all later... as I do want to see what everyone is thinking here.

 

I did sort of gloss over some of what has been said... and it looks to me like we are maybe getting close to hammering out all the little details of what it is that makes Dix tick... Laurel maybe not yet, though..

 

Good evening, Toastmaker -- Don't you burn my crust!

 

Ha.... sawdust toast comes w/ the crust off Mr. Plain Food Guy.

 

I actually had that commercial in mind, too

 

Doofy Minds think alike!! ha. Oh no.. What if I have caught April's "Grey Virus' ha. We are starting to think the same... ! YIKES.... I may have to go back and view some Once Upon a Blah Blah Blah "FRANK" footage!! ha. That will snap me back out of it..ha.

 

Dix told "Joe College" to "take it easy." Then the guy throws the "$200 paint job" line at Dix. If Dix's anger is over the top, I believe "Joe College's" is also way over the top. And then "Joe College" shoves this in the face of Dix:

 

Ok.. you do have a point that young Joe was a HOThead. But who wouldn't be?? Maybe he did get a bit out of line... but again... I think he was justifiably and understandbly angry... whereas Dix was just plain old MAD. And yes... maybe Joe was in the wrong to a certain degree... but this was a case where Dix was wrong FIRST.. then Joe College was wrong... and then DIX got to a point where he was MORE wrong still. It was just a big snowball of error crashing down on everyone.. but DIX is the one who started the ball rolling and he holds the brunt of the blame. (As in: 3 wrongs dont' make a right) Anyway.... I am glad Monsieur Laffite is here gunning with me on this one..ha. He did a good job of answering on this, so all I can add is... " Yeah, what he said"..ha.

 

Nicely done! That is precisely it. Trust. Who are you going to believe, the man you love or everyone else? If your answer is not your man, you and he are in trouble.

 

I think (along w/ listening to all the wrong people) Laurel made a lot of other mistakes too... almost from the beginning. But certainly from the point of the beach scene on... She did have a LOT of doubts about him after that. And she should have TOLD him.... at the onset of them. I think if she had said she couldn't trust him anymore after his incident with JoeCollege (and I am saying the next day.. not right at that moment when he was still furious) then the two of them may have parted ways, but neither of them would have been NEARLY so hurt by the way things turned out.

 

At the very least when things really started to go sour, she should never have agreed to marry him.... but by then she was so afraid of him, I think she thought she had no choice but to go along with him just to pacify him (and then try to make a break for it). And given the way he was so obviously coming apart at the seams (as April and Laffite have already discussed) I think she had good reason to be afraid, because by THAT point it may have been too late for a rational discussion with him. However.... most of the reason he was behaving so "whacko" was BECAUSE he could tell she was not the same as she had been... and (to borrow from April) he could feel her slipping right through his fingers.... and it made him panicky. It was like some sort of sad pathetic "domino" effect playing out... he was coming unglued because she was not acting like "herself".. she was afraid of him becuase he was coming unglued... they just kept going from bad to worse.

 

This whole film is as much about miscommunication as anything... It was going on all over the place... by a LOT of different people. But mostly between Laurel and Dix. They just made too many "judgements" about what the other was doing and thinking... and they took way too much for granted (as far as thinking they really knew one another when they did not) And it did a lot of damage. Laurel and Dix are like the poster children for Miscommunication in a relationship: DON'T let this happen to you. ha.

 

I have a few more thoughts about your question (regarding should a woman "stand by her man") but I will wait a bit more till I read through some of the other comments a bit better....

 

Carry on folks.. thanks for letting me "jabber" a bit.

[laffite]

Bonjour again Miss Goddess

 

(I didn' see this paragraph so may I answer, I just saw it because Cinemaven cited it.)

 

*I actually feel for both of them in this sequence. I understand her nervousness, but she doesn't seem to even consider for one second laying her cards on the table and telling him what's going on.This is the time to do it and do it without that almost hysterical fear. I think he deserves that much. Any fiance deserves that*

 

I thought she did when she made that remark to him about rushing into marriage. That was her first card on the table and she wanted to talk. She was afraid and perhaps wanted to back out but she had just told him that she loved him and said something that indicated that she was willing to talk. It doesn't seem fair to me that she should be characterized as "doesn't seem to even consider for one second laying her cards on the table." I think she did and should be given credit for that.

 

*She's about to run out with no explanation beyond a letter.*

 

But that comes later, Miss Goddess. That comes at the end of the movie just before he strangles her. The situation is worse by now. By this time her fear is at an even higher pitch and for good reason. By this time we've had the restaurant scene, a scene where Dix's behavior was abominable. She doesn't want to talk on the phone. Bring the Phone! And then he grabs the phone and talks into it. Where is the "legitimate provocation" for that, BTW. It's not is his call and she's sitting right there. Is this is how you treat a person that you love when you feel she might is slipping away? Yes, he thinks his world is falling apart and everyone is against him. I understand that. But that's his problem and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So he comes across mental.

 

Later upstairs he wants to know who's in the room. "Who's in there?" he wants to know. This sort of suspicious obsessiveness might be something that a normal person would feel on occasion but Dix comes across as sort of crazed. I don't see Dix as a normal man with normal reactions and then excuse him if he overacts. I have a hard time seeing, "...but they were legitimate provocations, it's just the degree of his reaction is extreme and unacceptable." I think the level of reaction is pretty important. For instance, it would be highly disturbing for anyone to pick the telephone and hear that your fiance is booking a flight to run out on you. But if your reaction is to strangle her, then I would suggest that there might be something mental about that. I understand you feel that's just an over reaction and that Dix is just a normal person with normal reactions, but if you can't deal the problem and then act like a maniac then maybe there is something mental going on.

 

On the other hand, Laural is much closer to normal provocations and normal reactions. I wouldn't label Laural as simply a person with "hysterical fear" when in fact that fear has shown to be justified and I wouldn't blame her for "running out" if she has a legitimate fear that she might be killed. Under the circumstances, I think it was quite decent of her to leave the letter.

 

*his girl is backing out, everyone's suspecting him of murder and he can't trust anybody. I don't think it's strictly correct to say this is paranoia on his part because all these things are in fact happening to him,*

 

Does "everyone" suspect him of murder and is it true that he can't trust "anybody?" He can trust his agent. Nicolai was a cop but he seemed a friend. He even bought the story about Dix's weird take on the murder. There was a certain logic that he might be considered a suspect by the police since he was the last person to see Mildred. So he might have accepted that as simple reality. But he couldn't...and worse, the one person who loved him and might have helped him---Laural---was not considered because she was thought to be against him. But she wasn't. it was only in his mind. Maybe he is paranoid after all.

 

Our respective takes on all this is different, Miss Goddess, but given the premise you take, I feel you are very persuasive.

 

//

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I

[laffite]

*MILDRED ATKINSON IS A HUMAN MacGUFFIN!!*

 

I'm not an expert on MacGuffins but my impression is that though they are a seeming significance at the outset, they become of no consequence at all as the story moves along. But Mildred is always there and has a lingering though muted background presence. Supposedly we are wondering whether Dix actually killed her or not and she therefore has a certain bearing on the plot. But if she is by definition a MacGuffin anyway, I will stand corrected.

 

*It's so hard to be a writer. You've got to create dramatic tensions between characters that hopefully make sense and are humanly psychologically sound and believable...WHILE keeping the plot moving forward.*

 

I wonder if they were unsure which should take precedence, character or plot. Dix has to be the way he is because the plot requires that he be capable of murder (Will he murder Laural?). But that gets in the way of character development in other and perhaps more interesting directions. Most of you feel those nuances are there and I can agree but they are undermined by Dix's disposition. The movie can't make up it's mind. Am I a suspense thriller or am I a soap opera? It's a little of both and I'm being a little facetious by using those terms. It's obviously contains a little of each and something much better besides, I'm sure. But on some level, the two tendencies clash and maybe to the detriment of the movie, IMO.

 

*I'm almoth thuffithently sloshed to take on owlllllllllllll comers. I'm on my thecond Bacardi.*

 

You are too funny

 

I have cases of Jamaican rum form my last plundering expeditions. I'll send you a case...I don't know though, the Bacardi seems to be doing just fine

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=laffite wrote:}{quote}

> I'm not an expert on MacGuffins but my impression is that though they are a seeming significance at the outset, they become of no consequence at all as the story moves along.

 

Well, that would be basically correct, except that McGuffins are usually objects. The human equivalent of a McGuffin is probably what you'd call a red herring.

[laffite]

*Bonjour, Super Charger -- I hope you win this week. *

 

Franklin, I did not pick up on this (what's new!) at the time...but now I see that the Chargers are playing the Giants, touching upon the plight of certain Cowboys. My heart is of course with the Chargers but if I had to decide with my pocketbook straight up I would have to go with the Giants. They've lost three in a row and will come out snortin'. This is like a playoff game for them. The Chargers have not proven themselves this year and i dont think they are ready IMO.

 

Meanwhile I will be at work Sunday night with my digital TV watching the same game you will. What a matchup! The Cowboys are on a roll and I like their chances. When Romo doesn't make mistakes the Cowboys win...and he hasn't made any mistakes lately. Looking forward to that one. Good Luck!

 

//

[molo14]

Wow! I just loved reading back over this discussion.

 

It takes me forever to post but I don't want to let this discussion get away from me.

 

*CineMaven writes:* *MILDRED ATKINSON IS A HUMAN MacGUFFIN!!*

 

I tend to agree!

 

I never really thought Dix had anything to do with Mildred's death. We have their scenes together and we don't know as much about Dix at this point, but the more we learn, the less it makes any sense. It simply is not his M.O. He certainly isn't provoked by her and he had nothing invested in their relationship.

 

*Laffite wrote: Then comes the beach party and the mention of Laural's visit to the Inspector's office (She did not want to go there BTW and I believe anyway that her reluctance to tell him was natural at that point, also to point out that her fear of him had not set in but shortly would). Dix gets angry and jumps in the car with Laural and we have the Joe College incident. This incident is so jarring and upsetting to Laural that she begins to doubt him and to fear him. Look at her face after she stops him from killing JoeC. From this point on Laural practically lives in fear of him. She thinks that maybe he killed Mildred. She has that conversation with the friend, "But you aren't laughing," etc. I think it's curious that if Ray, for instance, wanted this story to be about trust, he might have been more subtle and not had the JoeC incident occur so soon. The fear and doubt of Dix instilled in Laural by that effectively precludes any real look at trust. From that point on Laural's fear is justified. And with that kind of fear, trust cannot be sustained. Again, Laural cannot be faulted on the trust issue, IMO*

 

Laffite, I think that is such a key scene. The whole fight with "Joe College" and what happens before and after it.

 

Excuse me for getting too literal here but the only time the film title is referred to is in the scene where Dix is describing how he thinks Mildred was murdered and he's using Brub and Sylvia to reenact it. Laurel isn't aware of this conversation as far as we know.

 

 

Up until the scene at the beach everything has been going pretty smoothly for Dix and Laurel. She has been helping him out, typing away, they have been working together, and falling in love. She has become a part of Dix's gang. His family. I like the scene where she quietly gives Charlie his handout.

 

 

She belongs. Good times.

 

The piano bar scene may have been the height of their happiness but the beach scene is nice and cozy too, until Sylvia lets Laurel's visit to the police slip out. A visit she didn't want to make and where she professed her love for Dix. When Dix's violent history is brought up she tells Lochner it's all in the past.

 

With Sylvia's slip, everything changes. We go from this:

 

 

to this:

 

 

How justified is Dix's reaction? It's obvious that of the four of them, he's been left out. They didn't want him to know. That's not good but does it really warrant such a strong reaction? Does Dix not know he's still a suspect? Why does he accuse Laurel of lying when she said she just didn't want to upset him? He kind of proves her point. As she goes after Dix, Laurel confesses that she should of told him in the first place. She wants to talk. He doesn't.

 

I kind of went screencap happy so I thought I would just break this scene down. You can tell me if my thoughts are off base:

 

Laurel gets in the car. Dix is angry or is he hurt? Or both?

 

 

She tries the cigarette trick. It doesn't work.

 

 

Dix is out of control and Laurel has no control. She presses her feet to the floor of the car. She is helpless. She's scared.

 

 

They nearly hit "Joe College". Dix tells him to calm down. Kind of ironic. The kid mouths off and Dix nearly kills him. Now Frank, I tend to agree that the kid shouldn't have challenged him. He had it coming but when Dix picks up that rock he goes way too far over the edge. It is a fine line.

 

Now Laurel get's to see first hand that Dix can kill in a rage. She stops him. He does listen to her, but that doesn't erase what she sees.

 

 

Dix gets back in the car and turns off and stops on a lonely place in the road. You can feel Laurel's fear. I think she's genuinely afraid for her own life. It's not quite real to her, she is uncertain but the fear is there. When Dix puts his arm around her, she flinches.

 

 

Are we supposed to believe that he might do her in right then and there? No, I don't think so but the fear has been planted in Laurel's mind. There are few things more terrifying than being alone with someone in the middle of nowhere and thinking they could turn on you. She's completely vulnerable, the fact that she loves Dix makes it worse. The fact that he loves her makes it even more frightening. Love, jealousy, and yes, betrayal, can drive a man to very dark places.

 

Laurel's immediate fear is assuaged by Dix's voice, he'll have that cigarette now, but it is a turning point. I think Laurel knows at that moment she can never marry him but it is all too fresh for her to say anything. To be sure.

 

Dix starts to talk. Look at their faces in that scene.

 

 

Is Dix completely honest with Laurel there? Does he even know himself? Still for the first time Dix and Laurel talk openly about his violent tendencies. I don't think the Mildred Atkinson case has anything to do with it anymore. This is about the Dixon Steele that Laurel does know.

 

 

Look at Dix's eyes when she repeats what the College kid said:

 

 

that's real bad

 

I don't think Laurel is gently chiding Dix here. She has contempt in here voice. Dix ends that conversation.

 

 

Laurel drives and Dix brings up the poetic line he has in mind for the script.

 

I was born when she kissed me....

 

He asks her to repeat it but her heart isn't in it. Like Laffite said, she can't complete the line. Laurel is emotionally aloof during that drive home. She has a lot to think on. A lot to consider.

 

Well I know I haven't gone into all that much but I'm slow with these posts and I wanted to get something out there before you guys thought I had abandoned the discussion!

 

I'll be back this evening to respond more directly to everyone's comments and finish up my thoughts on the enigmatic Laurel Gray, as well as the complicated Dixon Steele.

[MissGoddess]

bonjour M. Laffitte!

 

>

> *She's about to run out with no explanation beyond a letter.*

>

> But that comes later, Miss Goddess. That comes at the end of the movie just before he strangles her. The situation is worse by now. By this time her fear is at an even higher pitch and for good reason.

 

I actually agree with Larry that Laurel's desire to bolt takes strongest root during the Joe College incident, which is earlier.

 

>Yes, he thinks his world is falling apart and everyone is against him. I understand that. But that's his problem and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So he comes across mental.

>

 

"His problem"? But he didn't create that problem, is all I'm saying. Others made it his problem and if the problem is trust in a relationship, I think it (or any other problem in a relationship) is to be solved by both persons. you don't get engaged to someone only to have to solve things separately and apart from one another. Laurel owed Dix loyalty if she was to marry him, and honesty if she wanted to break up with him.

 

Ask any woman who's not gotten an explanation for why her man suddenly cooled off and never called her back. Women typically are in this spot, not the man, which is yet another interesting layer about this movie. Men seem to despise giving concrete explanations for why they're "just no longer into her". This time, the shoe's on Dix's foot. Laurel isn't explaining her fears. I simply maintain this is a hugely painful spot to put a lover in, as many women can testify who've been rejected. Men too, though it happens more often to women.

 

> I understand you feel that's just an over reaction and that Dix is just a normal person with normal reactions, but if you can't deal the problem and then act like a maniac then maybe there is something mental going on.

>

 

And here, since you have been good enough to point out where I have misunderstood what you've written, I will, with the best intentions, remind you that I have never at any point condoned Dix's violence or intimated such. I've simply focused on the causes, not the reactons themselves.

 

I tend to see them as inextricably linked, as rohanaka perfectly described it, though I still feel Laurel (and now, I think, even Mel) are mostly to blame whereas Dix is actually a victim here, albeit a wildly unusual one. His history of combativeness contained the seeds of destruction, but what makes this movie a tragedy and not a thriller, is that his salvation (Laurel) is taken from him. It's ironic and doubly painful. A love like his for Laurel could have saved him, I believe, and yet in losing her he is perhaps reaping in some part for his violent ways. I just think the price he's paying is far higher than his crimes.

 

> Does "everyone" suspect him of murder and is it true that he can't trust "anybody?" He can trust his agent. Nicolai was a cop but he seemed a friend. He even bought the story about Dix's weird take on the murder.

 

Mel did suspect him from the start, so Dix teased him about it. Later on it looks like Mel does believe Laurel will be in danger if she stays with Dix. Nicolai is not convinced either way, but I think he struggles with believing Dix is a killer because he knew Dix in the service and saw nothing untoward in his behavior then. Nicolai's wife, on meeting Dix only once, thinks he's crazy. Nicolai is forced by his duties to regard Dix as a suspect, technically at least.

 

So, in conclusion, yes, I believe everyone suspects Dix, everyone close to him. Charlie Waterman is oblivious to what is going on...but I think if he were aware of things, he would probably be the one person who wouldn't think for an instant Dix was a murderer. That is only a guess, of course.

 

>

> Our respective takes on all this is different, Miss Goddess, but given the premise you take, I feel you are very persuasive.

>

 

 

I think you are too kind, for I have written in the flush of reaction (ironic, no?) and no doubt my haste has caused me to misread much. From your point of view, you've argued your case expertly.

 

M. Molo

 

I can only disagree with one aspect of your terrificly screencapped post...I don't hear contempt in Laurel's voice in that line. It sounds to me like she is chiding him, that she is handling him exactly as she should, however I do agree that it's probably at this point she has made up her mind definitely to break it off with him.

[laffite]

*Hi Molo*

 

*I never really thought Dix had anything to do with Mildred's death. We have their scenes together and we don't know as much about Dix at this point, but the more we learn, the less it makes any sense. It simply is not his M.O. He certainly isn't provoked by her and he had nothing invested in their relationship.*

 

I agree with you...and yet presumably this was supposed in the back of our minds the whole way. What is more important to the story though is that it was in the back of Laural's mind. That is a functional plot point. Laural became fearful with the Joe College incident but there were other factors, the visit to Dr Lochner who instilled fear of Dix, the scene with with the masseuse who did the same, and the scene with Brub's wife where Laural could not get assurances that she was overly concerned about Dix. The scenes have all the more effect on Laural because she suspects that Dix might have indeed killed Mildred.

 

*Excuse me for getting too literal here but the only time the film title is referred to is in the scene where Dix is describing how he thinks Mildred was murdered and he's using Brub and Sylvia to reenact it.*

 

You are definitely excused I'm glad you mentioned that.

 

*The piano bar scene may have been the height of their happiness*

 

I agree. The were basking in each others presence. That scene was almost naturalistic. They didn't look like actors at all. They looked like real people in a real bar some place. I especially like Gloria here, that radiant smile and the way she leans over so that he can whisper something in her ear, holding her cigarettes the way they do. As you point out, we sense here that everything is right with them.

 

*How justified is Dix's reaction? It's obvious that of the four of them, he's been left out. They didn't want him to know. That's not good but does it really warrant such a strong reaction? Does Dix not know he's still a suspect? Why does he accuse Laurel of lying when she said she just didn't want to upset him? He kind of proves her point. As she goes after Dix, Laurel confesses that she should of told him in the first place. She wants to talk. He doesn't.*

 

The last thing Dix does before getting in the car is turn to Brub and say. "Still checking on me, still trying to pin a murder on me." Yes, he knows he's a suspect but at this moment he feels betrayed by Brub...maybe. Brub is supposed to be his friend. *Miss Goddess* makes the point that eventually Dix becomes to feel people are turning against him and that this helps leads to his downfall. I actually contradicted *Miss Goddess* on this but watching the movie again last night am more receptive to that idea now.

 

The idea of betrayal by talking to Lochner probably applies to Laural as well. But I thought Laural was honest in the beach scene. It was evident that she did not want to pay the visit to Lochner in the first place and I believe it was plausible that she would not want to tell Dix about it. I don't believe her not telling constitutes deception on her part, at least willful, malicious deception. She withheld this information from him the way we do sometimes do, that it might cause more harm than good. It's important to note that she was not in that protracted fear cycle that was soon to begin, so fear was not a motivation for not telling. Notice how sincere natural she is when she says, "Well, I should have told him."

 

And I agree, this is an instance where she wanted to talk...but he was off and running. This is before---only just---that her cycle of fear takes over---but later even when fearful she makes overtures for talking and he doesn't respond. After watching the movie again last night, I realize though that he doesn't respond because he has fears of his own. They both have fears and it's driving them apart.

//

[FrankGrimes]

IN A LONELY SPOILER PLACE

 

Hey, Grahame's Guy -- I'm glad you have rejoined the discussion. I couldn't talk about In a Lonely Place without you being a part of the conversation.

 

I never really thought Dix had anything to do with Mildred's death. We have their scenes together and we don't know as much about Dix at this point, but the more we learn, the less it makes any sense. It simply is not his M.O. He certainly isn't provoked by her and he had nothing invested in their relationship.

 

That is correct. Dix's violent temper is always reactive, so for him to have killed Mildred, she would have had to provoke him.

 

Excuse me for getting too literal here but the only time the film title is referred to is in the scene where Dix is describing how he thinks Mildred was murdered and he's using Brub and Sylvia to reenact it. Laurel isn't aware of this conversation as far as we know.

 

I'm glad you brought that up, because the re-enactment scene is a very interesting one, for it tells the story. I believe the film is about trust and one being faithful to the one you love.

 

 

 

How did Mildred Atkinson (Martha Stewart) meet her fate? Well, we don't know what was said, but we know the person who did her in was her boyfriend, Henry (Jack Reynolds). Did she tell him the truth or did she deceive him?

 

How justified is Dix's reaction? It's obvious that of the four of them, he's been left out. They didn't want him to know. That's not good but does it really warrant such a strong reaction? Does Dix not know he's still a suspect? Why does he accuse Laurel of lying when she said she just didn't want to upset him? He kind of proves her point.

 

I feel VERY justified. If I was asked to go "downtown" to talk to the cops about my woman, I'd make damn sure she knew. I don't believe Laurel is protecting Dix by going behind his back. Quite the opposite. She's harming him. She's being unfaithful to him. Doing things behind your loved one's back is not the way to build a successful, loving relationship. It's destructive.

 

As she goes after Dix, Laurel confesses that she should of told him in the first place. She wants to talk. He doesn't.

 

Dix gets red hot when he's angry. It is one of his greatest failings, arguably his worst. I believe his choosing to leave was the best way for him to not completely lose it. He felt betrayed. He had to leave. Not everyone reacts to being betrayed with "let's talk this out." We're all wired differently.

 

Laurel gets in the car. Dix is angry or is he hurt? Or both?

 

Both, and that is a deadly mix. But it's the hurt that is really wrecking him. He doesn't care about the "Juniors" of the world, but he does care about Laurel. And she just stuck a knife in his back. Not good.

 

Laurel's immediate fear is assuaged by Dix's voice, he'll have that cigarette now, but it is a turning point. I think Laurel knows at that moment she can never marry him but it is all too fresh for her to say anything. To be sure.

 

Yes, I believe the words of others have now been validated in her own mind because of Dix almost killing "Joe College." She is now convinced in her own mind that Dix is a monster.

 

Is Dix completely honest with Laurel there? Does he even know himself? Still for the first time Dix and Laurel talk openly about his violent tendencies. I don't think the Mildred Atkinson case has anything to do with it anymore. This is about the Dixon Steele that Laurel does know.

 

I agree that Laurel's seeing Dix's violent temper firsthand supercedes the Atkinson rumors, but I still believe the case matters, especially since one of the most powerful lines in the film is this:

 

 

I don't think Laurel is gently chiding Dix here. She has contempt in here voice. Dix ends that conversation.

 

I respectfully disagree. I think she was "tsk-ing" him. She was kindly saying, "ohh, that's really bad, silly." It's as if she's a mother in this instance. "You need to be tougher."

[laffite]

*I actually agree with Larry that Laurel's desire to bolt takes strongest root during the Joe College incident, which is earlier*

 

It might have taken root but I wouldn't say that she knew that early that it would come to that. No, she decided to bolt when he push for the marriage and the trip to Vegas. It was the marriage that she couldn't abide. When she asked him to consider not rushing into it she was trying to buy time and perhaps get over her fears. When he broached he subject of marriage she said she loved him and meant it I believe and was willing to stay with him if he would accede to waiting, but he didn't and she decided then she had to leave IMO. She as much as said that to Mel in that scene that followed. She told him she could not go through with it. This was just prior to the restaurant scene.

 

 

laffite: Yes, he thinks his world is falling apart and everyone is against him. I understand that. But that's his problem and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So he comes across mental.

 

*"His problem"? But he didn't create that problem, is all I'm saying.*

 

But that's important. We don't always create our problems but if we have the problem we have to deal with it. I feel he should take responsibility for that instead of playing the victim and acting out because by doing so, there are consequences.

 

*you don't get engaged to someone only to have to solve things separately and apart from one another. Laurel owed Dix loyalty if she was to marry him, and honesty if she wanted to break up with him.*

 

Let's remember please that she agreed to marry him out of fear. He extracted that from her and therefore I don't think it's fair to say that she "owed" him at all. One might say he owed her the courtesy of a little conversation about the marriage in the first place before rushing her to Vegas. So it works both ways. I think you say that it takes two.

 

*Laurel isn't explaining her fears.*

 

Laural did not just have fears, she was terrified. Perhaps for her life. If you are that afraid it's difficult ot air them. Remember the scene with Brub's wife, who urges her to talk to Dix. Laural says to her "What can I say to him. I love you but I?m afraid of you. I want to marry you but first convince me you didn?t kill Mildred Atkinson.? This at least she shows she had good faith. She _wanted_ to tell him. Where does Dix do anything comparable. The fact is though that she was too fearful. And her fear is justified because she witnessed Dix almost kill a man and she has been warned about him. But still, we have to decide how important this kind of fear is and whether we can cut her some slack with regard to her leaving Dix. It's difficult because we can't know in reality how afraid she is and even if we did it would be subjective for each person. For me, I think her fear is real, she's not using it as an excuse, and that she was doing what she felt she had to do to survive. The fact that Dix ended up practically strangling her and nearly killing her vindicates her decision.

 

And if we are going impose imperatives on Laural, then in all fairness we should do the same with Dix. If he feels that his world is crumbling around him, well, there are ways to deal with that. But maybe he is just as helpless with his fears as Laural is with hers. I think that's true. That's why they couldn't make it, IMO.

 

*And here, since you have been good enough to point out where I have misunderstood what you've written, I will, with the best intentions, remind you that I have never at any point condoned Dix's violence or intimated such. I've simply focused on the causes, not the reactions themselves.*

 

But that's my point, isn't it. I'm saying the reactions _are_ important and they should be focused on. If you can't control violent reactions, then how can you react appropriately and responsibility, the same way that you would have Laural do.

 

*His history of combativeness contained the seeds of destruction, but what makes this movie a tragedy and not a thriller, is that his salvation (Laurel) is taken from him. It's ironic and doubly painful. A love like his for Laurel could have saved him, I believe, and yet in losing her he is perhaps reaping in some part for his violent ways. I just think the price he's paying is far higher than his crimes.*

 

But is it possible that Laural was not "taken" from, per se, but that he might have been responsible too. The JoeCollege incident is where he actually lost her, that's when she began to doubt him and fear him. That's what his reactions got him. If he thought (and whoever among us here agrees) that he was justified in punching Joe College over a paint job, well, he paid a dear price for it, the woman who might have saved him. And after that she tried to talk about it (on the couch). He pushed marriage on her and effectively pushed her right out of his life.

 

*I just think the price he's paying is far higher than his crimes.*

 

Life is not fair...in real life...and I guess in the movies too.

 

*Mel did suspect him from the start, so Dix teased him about it. Later on it looks like Mel does believe Laurel will be in danger if she stays with Dix. Nicolai is not convinced either way, but I think he struggles with believing Dix is a killer because he knew Dix in the service and saw nothing untoward in his behavior then. Nicolai's wife, on meeting Dix only once, thinks he's crazy. Nicolai is forced by his duties to regard Dix as a suspect, technically at least.*

 

*So, in conclusion, yes, I believe everyone suspects Dix, everyone close to him. Charlie Waterman is oblivious to what is going on...but I think if he were aware of things, he would probably be the one person who wouldn't think for an instant Dix was a murderer. That is only a guess, of course.*

 

But why he can't face the fact and realize that he was the last person to see Mildred and he is a logical suspect ot begin with. That's basic reality. Mel was on his side. The scenes you are referring with him occurred early in the movie. Even after Dix blamed Nicolai on the beach, he approached him later and more or less forgave him by saying "The next time you want information, just ask me," (instead of interviewing Laural) and so he and Nicolai did not accuse him after that. And it wasn't that he was continually being besieged during the course of the move with in-your-face accusation from everybody. Laural couldn't accuse him because she was too afraid to talk about it. And even if he was being continually accused by everyone (which he wasn't) he should be expected to deal with fears concerning that in the same way Laural should be deal with hers. The owe each other.

 

Cheers, MissGoddess

Thank you

 

laffite

 

//

[MissGoddess]

>

> It might have taken root but I wouldn't say that she knew that early that it would come to that. No, she decided to bolt when he push for the marriage and the trip to Vegas. It was the marriage that she couldn't abide.

 

I actually agree with that, but for different reasons. I believe she and Dix are in fact a couple. We see them as "man and wife" in the early stages. This being 1950, I'm sure Laurel knew marriage was immanent. And at that point, she seems fine with committment. I believer they are a couple in the traditional sense and that trust has to be shown at this stage or you will never even get to then next stage of a relationship. But she admitted earlier she gets out at the first signs of trouble. That wasn't a throw-away line. This is why I think Laurel is not someone who can stay and fight for a relationship. She runs, instead.

 

> When she asked him to consider not rushing into it she was trying to buy time and perhaps get over her fears.

 

But she didn't tell Dix why. He can't guess, he needs to be told.

 

> When he broached he subject of marriage she said she loved him and meant it I believe and was willing to stay with him if he would accede to waiting, but he didn't and she decided then she had to leave IMO.

 

I think she was only pushing for enough time to think of a way to get out.

 

> She as much as said that to Mel in that scene that followed. She told him she could not go through with it. This was just prior to the restaurant scene.

 

She was being honest with Mel there, but she wasn't with Dix. If she said she loved Dix and meant it then she needed to be straight with him.

 

>

>

> laffite: Yes, he thinks his world is falling apart and everyone is against him. I understand that. But that's his problem and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So he comes across mental.

>

> *"His problem"? But he didn't create that problem, is all I'm saying.*

>

> But that's important. We don't always create our problems but if we have the problem we have to deal with it. I feel he should take responsibility for that instead of playing the victim and acting out because by doing so, there are consequences.

>

 

What responsibility? What did he do? You mean his temper? Laurel doesn't want to leave Dix because he fights, she wants to leave him because she thinks he's killed once before and that means he'll kill again. Since he did not kill Mildred, from his point of view he has nothing to take responsibility for. She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.

 

That's what set him off. He had to have something to react to in the first place. I believe it was betrayal. And I haven't said that his violence is the right reaction, it's totally inappropriate, but he was provoked and not by something small.

 

>

> Let's remember please that she agreed to marry him out of fear. He extracted that from her and therefore I don't think it's fair to say that she "owed" him at all. One might say he owed her the courtesy of a little conversation about the marriage in the first place before rushing her to Vegas. So it works both ways. I think you say that it takes two.

>

 

They were a couple before, practically living in each other's cups as it were. Laurel knew marriage was on the horizon. I believe and I think Dix believed you owe trustworthyness to the person you are involved with. It was 1950, not 2009, and this wasn't an "open relationship", it was a committed one and I think they had plenty of conversation, overt or oblique, in their intimate times together. She acts just like his wife in those early scenes. His home has become hers.

 

> *Laurel isn't explaining her fears.*

>

> Laural did not just have fears, she was terrified. Perhaps for her life. If you are that afraid it's difficult ot air them. Remember the scene with Brub's wife, who urges her to talk to Dix. Laural says to her "What can I say to him. I love you but I?m afraid of you. I want to marry you but first convince me you didn?t kill Mildred Atkinson.? This at least she shows she had good faith. She _wanted_ to tell him. Where does Dix do anything comparable.

 

She was supposed to trust him, but she started listening to others. She began to view Dix and his actions in the view of the newly planted suspicion he had committed the murder of Mildred. Why doesn't she tell him from the start, after seeing Brub? I agree with Grimes, that was a huge omission, not something unimportant. I have to admit, I would be savage if I found my boyfriend did such a thing and didn't tell me. And I'd instantly suspect the worst of him unless he came clean with the whole story.

 

> The fact is though that she was too fearful. And her fear is justified because she witnessed Dix almost kill a man and she has been warned about him.

 

But let us go back to why she is fearful. You're saying right here she was fearful before Joe College and that this incident justified her fears. Why was she afraid before? Because other people have planted doubt in her mind and she didn't either tell them to go fly a kite or come to Dix and say, "Can you believe those cops? They dragged me down there again and grilled me about you!" Why can't she say that to him? Why not ask Dix what's up with all these altercations? I think her own insecurity about committing to anyone was just triggered.

 

> But still, we have to decide how important this kind of fear is and whether we can cut her some slack with regard to her leaving Dix. It's difficult because we can't know in reality how afraid she is and even if we did it would be subjective for each person. For me, I think her fear is real, she's not using it as an excuse, and that she was doing what she felt she had to do to survive. The fact that Dix ended up practically strangling her and nearly killing her vindicates her decision. [/b]

 

I do not question her fears or even their justification--after the violence---I question her for not coming clean from the start. I don't think the conversation with the cops convinced her Dix was guilty, but it did make her suspicious and fearful enough not to tell him. That's where the lack of trust starts, because that's just too huge and explosive an issue to not bother about telling him. She's got some serious reservations now about his very sanity and character and she's not going to tell him? Or did she dismiss what the police said to her and consider it unimportant at all to mention to him? Either she was afraid or she was keeping secrets because that's her nature. Either way it isn't fair to Dix, not something that enormously important as a police discussion about whether your potential husband could be a murderer.

 

>

> And if we are going impose imperatives on Laural, then in all fairness we should do the same with Dix. If he feels that his world is crumbling around him, well, there are ways to deal with that. But maybe he is just as helpless with his fears as Laural is with hers. I think that's true. That's why they couldn't make it, IMO.

>

 

I agree Dix should have said listen honey, what the heck is going on with you, but it's 1950 and I don't think too many men could vocalize fears too well. Clearly, Dix doesn't.

 

I believe one of the ways of dealing with a crumbling world is to have the help and loyalty of your lover. But how does one deal with a lover who's betrayed you? Do any of us deal with it very well? I haven't met one person yet who has, including myself. No one deals with betrayal perfectly, but communication of the truth is some kind of a start. Dix doesn't know what the heck is going on so he has nothing but a fear something is wrong.

 

>

> But that's my point, isn't it. I'm saying the reactions _are_ important and they should be focused on. If you can't control violent reactions, then how can you react appropriately and responsibility, the same way that you would have Laural do.

>

 

But what starts the reaction? An action. I guess it boils down to whether one thinks the action is an issue or a non-issue. I happen to think Laurel's quick jump from playing house to keeping secrets is a real provocation. I just feel she should have fished or cut bait and never kept anything from him. Those are things that would really mess with any relationship, destroy it, so it's no wonder Dix flips. He didn't do any of this, however, until Laurel began keeping things from him. Their relationship was fine until then. He had done nothing for Laurel to react to.

 

>

> But is it possible that Laural was not "taken" from, per se, but that he might have been responsible too.

 

I guess I was unclear, that is what I meant by the seeds of his downfall were partly sown by him, by his history of combativeness.

 

> The JoeCollege incident is where he actually lost her, that's when she began to doubt him and fear him.

 

I'm confused, earlier you say that her fears were justified by this incident. did they begin when the cops showed her all those pictures and told her about Dix's past, or only after she saw him flip on the kid? Would she have wanted to leave the relationship if the murder in question were never an issue? I think not. I don't think it's his temper that scares Laurel, without the threat of murder behind it.

 

>That's what his reactions got him.

 

So why did she keep the meeting with the cops a secret? He had never reacted badly toward her before that so there were no reactions to get him anywhere with Laurel, specifically.

 

> If he thought (and whoever among us here agrees) that he was justified in punching Joe College over a paint job, well, he paid a dear price for it, the woman who might have saved him. And after that she tried to talk about it (on the couch). He pushed marriage on her and effectively pushed her right out of his life.

 

I don't believe Laurel would have been afraid of him for the incident with Joe College alone. She thought her guy was a murderer and saw all his behaviors through that filter.

 

>

> *I just think the price he's paying is far higher than his crimes.*

>

> Life is not fair...in real life...and I guess in the movies too.

>

 

Exactly---which is what makes this film so complex. My statement wasn't a complaint against the way Ray directed the ending, it was a comment on the tragic nature of the story, that Dix is the real tragedy and Laurel only finds that out at the end.

 

>

> But why he can't face the fact and realize that he was the last person to see Mildred and he is a logical suspect ot begin with. That's basic reality.

 

He seems okay with the cops thinking that. I think he deals with their interrogation in the beginning extraordinarily well. But you're saying he should be okay that his intimates suspect him? If anyone intimate with me, friend, relative or lover, suspected me for a minute of something like that, they'd soon be my former friend, lover and estranged relative. I demand loyalty and I guess that's why I side with Dix's expectation of it, too.

 

>Mel was on his side. The scenes you are referring with him occurred early in the movie.

 

That's what I thought before, too, but I recently realized that Mel apparently agrees with Laurel at the end that she may be in danger from him and so he helps her get away by sneaking the script to Brodie. With a successful script sold, Mel believes, Dix won't need Laurel around. I don't think Mel is right about that. I didn't realize until now that it was actually pretty wrong of Mel to do that, though I think he had mixed motives. He was helping Laurel but in his mind, he thinks Dix doesn't really need her, he just needs "success". Those were his words, in fact, to Laurel about Dix. Why else would Mel sneak around behind Dix's back?

 

> Even after Dix blamed Nicolai on the beach, he approached him later and more or less forgave him by saying "The next time you want information, just ask me," (instead of interviewing Laural) and so he and Nicolai did not accuse him after that.

 

That's true, which shows just how cool Dix can be. But Nicolai's opinion is not the opinion of his superiors in the department, and he has to act accordingly.

 

> And it wasn't that he was continually being besieged during the course of the move with in-your-face accusation from everybody. Laural couldn't accuse him because she was too afraid to talk about it. And even if he was being continually accused by everyone (which he wasn't) he should be expected to deal with fears concerning that in the same way Laural should be deal with hers. The owe each other.

>

 

If he wasn't being told to his face waht was going on, wasnt' he justified in being confused, angry and upset over everyone's unexplained, behind-his-back behavior? By Laurel's pulling back suddenly in their relationship?

 

And if my intimates do tell me to my face they are thinking I'm a killer, again, as I said before, I would tell them where they could go and get myself a new set of replacements quick. So would Dix be wise to do.

 

Whew! I'm worn out and am laying down my sword.

 

Monsieur Laffitee, you have been a foeman worthy of my STEELE.

[rohanaka]

Whew! I'm worn out and am laying down my sword.

 

Monsieur Laffitee, you have been a foeman worthy of my STEELE

 

Wowsa.... talk about your epic battles... :-)

 

I am seeing a lot of different statements here (after reading through all this again) and between everyone's various points of view there has to be some sort of common ground. (though I am not sure we will ever find it...ha) Maybe it is in agreeing that WHOEVER is to blame... or whoever it was that started the ball rolling in the wrong direction... we all seem to basically agree that Dix was too violent and that Laurel was too scared for either of them to be of any good to the other.

 

Miss G, I want to just say that I do perhaps see what you and the Grey Dude are saying about Dix being justified in his anger (regarding Laurel's decision to keep her visit to the police a secret) and how that sort of causes the "chain reaction" of other events that happen later on. We all agree that he OVER reacted... but it is easy to see why he was angry.

 

But I also think I understand at least in part WHY she would keep it to herself... perhaps out of fear... but maybe even out of a sense of thinking she was protecting him... but it was the wrong choice and it certainly worked against both of them in the end.

 

I mentioned the "domino effect" earlier and how one thing led to another that led to another... for both of them... they just kept knocking each other's dominoes down until things got totally out of control. But it was not totally their own faults as others had a hand in it all as well. There were a lot of "domino pushers" in this story.

 

I still wonder what things would have been like for them if the whole murder "thing" would never have happened. And this may be the bottom line for me.

 

Miss G, I know you have said that you think that the right woman COULD have had a positive effect on Dix and that he may have changed with her love and trust.... and while I may agree to a point, because I think that anything is possible, I just am not able to see it entirely that way. (and PS... this is probaly a moot point as I really don't think she WAS the right woman for him as she clearly had too many issues of her own, so I am basing my thoughts in a general way here)

 

I think when it comes to people with anger control issues like Dix, that statistics show a lot of battered women were thinking just that same thought (that if they loved their man enough and took care of him more, he would change) when they entered into relationships w/ someone who was violent ... and then they found out differently only after it was too late.

 

The QT and I both know of someone in our family who has issues w/ reacting violently (and with great anger) when challenged. And sadly, (speaking only from a SMALL amount of experience, compared to others) I believe that people like Dix will only change if they WANT TO or if they are led to after receiveing medical or spiritual help. Sadly, this person in our family is not a part of our lives any more... and I can tell you that although this individual is missed and prayed for with love EVERYDAY, we do not miss their violence, or their anger. You can put an angry person in a loving environment and give them every advantage... but that does not always take the angry out of them... no matter how stable, loving, and patient one tries to be. And I don't think this person will EVER find any peace or happiness until they are able to get the kind of spiritual and perhaps even mental help they need.

 

Now bringing it all back to our film here, I think unless Dix somehow got help that was bigger than just the right woman in his life.. he was still going to have issues anytime he got too stressed or anytime he felt someone was harrassing him or causing a problem in his life. He just had no lasting self control. And even without the murder investigation hanging over his head, it was only a matter of time before SOMETHING else came along and put him under stress and caused him to act out. And I think it was bettter for both of them for Laurel to find out sooner rather than later. (Imagine how AWFUL it would be had they married and had children... and then one day something sets him off and a "Joe College" incident happened with the kids in the car.)

 

Now as to Mr. Grey's question earlier, about whether a woman should trust her man.... (and I will go further and take it to ... should she stand by her man) the answer to both is yes.. and no. Ha. How do you like THAT for a "grey answer" ha.

 

Trust is a funny thing. It is not something that can just be "given" to someone you love. Or at least it should not be. And yet there has to be a BASIC level of trust that we all start out with if we ever TRULY want to be in a relationship with someone else. But lasting trust (real trust) comes from gettting to know a person over time. And getting to understand what makes them WHO they are from the inside out. And I don't think Dix and Laurel had that sort of trust yet... because they had not been together long enough... and also because they did not really KNOW the other person. They only THOUGHT they did. So... while I think they let each other down... I do not think EITHER of them could have been expected to truly trust the other.

 

Dix made HIS mistake by taking for granted that he COULD trust Laurel... And Laurel made her mistakes by not TRYING to get to know who Dix really was before she found herself in a position where she would need to trust him. (is any of that making sense?) So in a way, they both let the other down.

 

And as to whether she should have "stood by him" if she "loved him.... and not allowed herself to be so influenced by others...

 

I think that if you truly LOVE someone..you will not allow yourself to be influenced by what others say as much as by what you know for yourself. But it can be hard (again) if you have not had time to build trust in one another. They had not had enough time to really move out of the "romantic love" in their relationship and move on to a deeper, truer love for one another...

 

If you TRULY love someone, (and I am basing this more off of what I believe to be a Biblical definition of love, based on 1Corinthians Chapter 13) you will seek their very best in ALL things no matter what. You will go out of your way to be patient with them in all things, and you will want better for them than you do for yourself. And I also think you will also expect them to be their best in all things too.... and that means that you will try to encourage them to do right when you see them going down a path that will harm them. I think when you TRULY love someone, you will seek THEIR welfare above your own in everything you do.

 

But I do not think that a woman (or a man) is obligated to "stand by" or " trust" anyone when someone they love is CLEARLY harming themselves and/or someone else. (especially physically) but in other ways as well. I do not believe that it is ever right to just turn a blind eye to someone who is blatantly seeking to harm themself or another person (even in a "moment" of anger or passion, etc)

 

Everyone has a bad day now and then... but when you start so see a pattern of this sort of behaior.... I don't think anyone is ever obligated out of love to just "look past it" all and let it go. That isn't love.. that is "enabling"

 

And sadly.. .I think that is what a lot of people who claimed to love Dix (ESPECIALLY Laurel and his agent friend) did for him by looking past a lot of his faults and his angry outbursts. They became his enablers rather than truly loving him in a way that would make a positive difference in his life.

 

I don't think anyone (who loved him) EVER told Dix off "for his own good". And to me... THAT is what a loving person would do. (As in: "Dix.... I love you, I want you to be happy... but I can't stay with you any more so long as you are violent. I know you don't want to hear this, but you need help. I will work with you everyway I can to get you that help and we can get through this together, but we cannot keep going on this way." ) Now THAT would have been standing with him... even if you were left standing from far away. And maybe EVENTUALLY that would have been a way that trust COULD have been built (over time) It is GOOD to know who your real friends are (and who really loves you) And perhaps eventually.... if even ONE of his friends... or if Laurel had tried a little harder to TRULY help him, Dix MAY have come to see that they meant it for his good.

 

But then again... there are no guarantees. A person like Dix is not going to truly change unless they want to... or unless (and I TRULY believe this) they are led to either by receiving medical or spiritual help... or both)

 

I think even before Mildred, Dix was a tragic, and very sympathetic man who truly was (both mentally and emotionally) in a "lonely place" (perhaps not totally of his own making.) And I also think that Laurel had far too many "tragic" issues of her own to ultimatley be anything but another "domino" pusher in his life. With or without all the "Mildred" stuff stirring up trouble for them... sooner or later, they woulld have parted ways.

 

Ok... I meandered a bit on all this... thanks for putting up w/ me folks. Hope this all made at least a little sense.

[molo14]

Well now, Dixon Steele and Laurel Grey can really stir up a discussion!

 

_Hi Laffite,_

 

*The idea of betrayal by talking to Lochner probably applies to Laural as well. But I thought Laural was honest in the beach scene. It was evident that she did not want to pay the visit to Lochner in the first place and I believe it was plausible that she would not want to tell Dix about it. I don't believe her not telling constitutes deception on her part, at least willful, malicious deception. She withheld this information from him the way we do sometimes do, that it might cause more harm than good. It's important to note that she was not in that protracted fear cycle that was soon to begin, so fear was not a motivation for not telling. Notice how sincere natural she is when she says, "Well, I should have told him."*

 

From Laurel's perspective it was no great sin not to tell Dix. He was really working away on the screenplay too. He is an artist and is probably often "handled" by those around him to facilitate his work. He should be used to that and it could have been a factor in Laurel's thinking, but Dix certainly doesn't want that sort of behavior from her, not from the woman he loves, particularly about something so important.

 

As the film moves from that point on, I put a lot of my emphasis on Laurel's fear. I lose sight of Dix's perspective. Miss Goddess and Frank are driving that point home to me.

 

*And I agree, this is an instance where she wanted to talk...but he was off and running. This is before---only just---that her cycle of fear takes over---but later even when fearful she makes overtures for talking and he doesn't respond. After watching the movie again last night, I realize though that he doesn't respond because he has fears of his own. They both have fears and it's driving them apart.*

 

I basically come at this film from the same perspective that you do. Are Laurel's transgressions strong enough to justify Dix's anger? If you watch this film from the point of view of Laurel, it is hard to find so much fault with her actions. If you put yourself in Dix's shoes things become a lot more complicated for me. They are both complex characters and we are given clues (but not answers) from which we must try an interpret motivations and behavior.

 

I can't put my head around the idea that Laurel suspects Dix of murder in the case of Mildred, She was his alibi and I think she knows that it doesn't fit with his character. I know she mentions it to Sylvia but I don't think that is her real concern, I think she realizes that Dix can become violent when provoked and also when he is deeply invested in something. She knows he is deeply invested in her and that he may well turn on her if she doesn't play him right. This is all after the beating of "Joe College" of course. Laurel is thinking less about hurting Dix and more about her own preservation. Can we blame her? Well yes, from Dix's perspective we can, but what about from a general perspective. I think the answer from Miss Goddess and Frank Grimes is yes. If Laurel truly loves Dix she needs to be completely honest with him. If she doesn't then what is she doing there in the first place.

 

They make very good points in Dix's favor. Yet every time I watch I start out in Dix's corner and end up in Laurel's. The beating after the beach scene is the turning point for me. I'm not alone in this view. Yet Frank and Miss Goddess bring up points that I can't dismiss.

 

Now since Frank and Miss G. find themselves in this uncomfortable alliance, I can either keep arguing back and forth with them until they eventually turn on each other, which we all know is bound to happen , or confess that they have forced me to rethink certain aspects of the film. Well, I must admit they have.

 

_Hi Miss Goddess_, You in a good mood today? I thought I might jump in to your exchange with Laffite for a moment.

 

*Mel did suspect him from the start, so Dix teased him about it. Later on it looks like Mel does believe Laurel will be in danger if she stays with Dix. Nicolai is not convinced either way, but I think he struggles with believing Dix is a killer because he knew Dix in the service and saw nothing untoward in his behavior then. Nicolai's wife, on meeting Dix only once, thinks he's crazy. Nicolai is forced by his duties to regard Dix as a suspect, technically at least.*

 

I thought Mel was an interesting character with regard to Dix's past. Dix doesn't seem to be at all bothered by the fact that Mel doesn't seem sure he is not guilty. For his part Mel seems resigned to the fact that he is "stuck" with Dix. They have a long history together. Dix seems to respect the fact that Mel has stood by him. Mel seems to view Laurel in turns as both a threat and an opportunity. He is suspicious of her in the beginning. In the end he will be there to help clean up the mess when Laurel leaves.

 

*What responsibility? What did he do? You mean his temper? Laurel doesn't want to leave Dix because he fights, she wants to leave him because she thinks he's killed once before and that means he'll kill again. Since he did not kill Mildred, from his point of view he has nothing to take responsibility for. She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.*

 

This I just don't believe. When she talks to Sylvia and Mel, she brings up the violence first and then mentions that maybe she thinks he did in Mildred. If Laurel really thought he killed Mildred she would have left him and started running. She's a gal that gets out when the going gets rough. Murder is pretty rough. She is still trying to figure it all out. Yes she is "wishy washy" as you said when we argued this out months ago. It's his temper that scares her though, and how far he might go.

 

*That's what set him off. He had to have something to react to in the first place. I believe it was betrayal. And I haven't said that his violence is the right reaction, it's totally inappropriate, but he was provoked and not by something small.*

 

I can see your point here.

 

*They were a couple before, practically living in each other's cups as it were. Laurel knew marriage was on the horizon. I believe and I think Dix believed you owe trustworthyness to the person you are involved with. It was 1950, not 2009, and this wasn't an "open relationship", it was a committed one and I think they had plenty of conversation, overt or oblique, in their intimate times together. She acts just like his wife in those early scenes. His home has become hers.*

 

This is a very good point and you are right to point out the time period. Laurel was maybe just as cozy with Baker, but I tend to think her relationship with Dix is more emotionally rooted. Still it shows she still has herself foremost in her mind. I'll grant you she is selfish in that respect. Considering her past, she might have a different idea about how relationships work. Still after she witnesses the beating, Dix's temper is no longer an abstract concept. I still think that is the turning point. If Dix hadn't proposed she might have wavered on indefinitely, but she couldn't run out on a marriage contract as cleanly and easily.

 

*But let us go back to why she is fearful. You're saying right here she was fearful before Joe College and that this incident justified her fears. Why was she afraid before? Because other people have planted doubt in her mind and she didn't either tell them to go fly a kite or come to Dix and say, "Can you believe those cops? They dragged me down there again and grilled me about you!" Why can't she say that to him? Why not ask Dix what's up with all these altercations? I think her own insecurity about committing to anyone was just triggered.*

 

One quibble here. Dix's violent past in those police reports, the fact that he beat up a former girlfriend, are facts she can only say are in the past. She says that to the police. She tells Martha to get out. Approaching Dix is more complicated, maybe Laurel is wary about confrontation, whatever, it may not be right, I agree, but I can understand it. These things have to be dealt with in her mind, and they will be one way or another, but she wavers.

 

_Hey there Frank, How are you?_

 

*I feel VERY justified. If I was asked to go "downtown" to talk to the cops about my woman, I'd make damn sure she knew. I don't believe Laurel is protecting Dix by going behind his back. Quite the opposite. She's harming him. She's being unfaithful to him. Doing things behind your loved one's back is not the way to build a successful, loving relationship. It's destructive.*

 

I agree with you, as I said to Miss G earlier, this is a point on which I concede I wasn't thinking from Dix's perspective. I knew you were going to put Laurel on the hot seat when you joined in the conversation. You had put that out a long time ago. So when I watched the film again the other night, I made a calculated error. I went in concentrating on Laurel, I should of concentrated on Dix.

 

*Dix gets red hot when he's angry. It is one of his greatest failings, arguably his worst. I believe his choosing to leave was the best way for him to not completely lose it. He felt betrayed. He had to leave. Not everyone reacts to being betrayed with "let's talk this out." We're all wired differently*.

 

I agree with you here. People who have issues controlling their anger often walk away as a means to gain control or keep from losing it. If Dix felt Laurel betrayed him, then he should have brought it up later. That was an issue he wasn't guessing about or clueless about. He should have confronted her, shouldn't he? It was a red flag he ignored. Laurel isn't the only one to blame here.

 

One of the sad aspects of this film is that Dix and Laurel never have the conversation they need to have.

 

*I agree that Laurel's seeing Dix's violent temper firsthand supercedes the Atkinson rumors, but I still believe the case matters, especially since one of the most powerful lines in the film is this:*

 

Yesterday that would have meant so much to us

 

This is an interesting difference of perspectives regarding this film. Some feel the line rings hollow considering all that has occurred. I feel that way. I understand why the film is set up the way it is, with the Atkinson murder hanging in the background. I mean, it's what brought them together in the first place, but I still believe Laurel has enough evidence of Dix's violent behavior other than Mildred's murder, hard evidence like the police reports,that she reached a point of no return with witnessing the beating.

 

Regarding:

 

That's real bad

 

I wrote: I don't think Laurel is gently chiding Dix here. She has contempt in here voice. Dix ends that conversation.

 

*I respectfully disagree. I think she was "tsk-ing" him. She was kindly saying, "ohh, that's really bad, silly." It's as if she's a mother in this instance. "You need to be tougher."*

 

I really did go over that scene again and again. Her conversation before it, which is in my caps, and her serious tone when she is driving home right afterward led me to believe she wasn't being so gentle. I used to think that she was being more gentle, but not now. Of course we have our enigmatic Gloria Grahame delivering the line of an enigmatic Laurel Gray but I thought she delivered it with a more serious tone. Contempt was too strong a word though. I was writing in the heat of battle.

 

One more thing, you and Miss Goddess, don't have much use for Martha. Gloria tells Dix that she is married, has a kid in college, and that she sees her twice a week. The scene between them may be a lot of things, it is definitely an eye opener, there is an almost lascivious nature to it. She does speak strangely to Laurel. What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else? When she talks of being back at Baker's beside that nice pool, I didn't get the idea that she was sponging off Laurel. She might be controlling. What does she do really? She doesn't like Dix. She knows he beat up an old girlfriend and she doesn't want Laurel with a man like that. So? That is perfectly understandable. When Laurel calls her she responds quickly.

 

Maybe I'm being naive here. I don't know what kind of history Martha has with Laurel, but it does sound like more than just a client relationship. Still, I'm not ready to be as hard on Martha as you two are.

 

I'm sure CineMaven will have something to say about this.

 

 

Well I guess I should rap this post up. Or just shut up! Is anyone still reading?

 

Rohanaka, Jackie, et al, I do want to get to your comments as well. You've been warned!

 

Edited by: molo14 on Nov 9, 2009 4:00 AM

[laffite]

>Whew! I'm worn out and am laying down my sword.

 

Whew is right! A fine and impressive post! We disagree to be sure but there are times when we are quite close. There are some misunderstandings though and I will certainly take my share of the blame, if not more. Sometimes we agree but the our time lines are slightly off that muddies the waters. Or there are instances where, in my view, we are not quite talking about the same thing. These confusions are probably inevitable in discussions like this, especially these long posts where we are continually jumping from scene to scene.

 

In Molo's last post, he cited this and it caught my attention so let me comment on just this one point.

 

*Laffite: The fact is though that she was too fearful. And her fear is justified because she witnessed Dix almost kill a man and she has been warned about him.*

 

*Miss Goddess: But let us go back to why she is fearful. You're saying right here she was fearful before Joe College and that this incident justified her fears. Why was she afraid before? Because other people have planted doubt in her mind and she didn't either tell them to go fly a kite or come to Dix and say, "Can you believe those cops? They dragged me down there again and grilled me about you!" Why can't she say that to him?*

 

That's not what I'm saying there. I never said she was fearful before Joe College. I probably should have said above "..._had_ been warned about him." The Lochner interview and the masseuse scenes both occurred before the JoeCollege scene. She was not fearful of Dix at those times and in both cases she did tell them to "go fly a kite." She said to Lochner, "I don't believe you...he has changed," when he told her of Dix's violent tendencies. And she reacted strongly against the masseuse's warnings about Dix's violence and ends up dismissing her from the session. She loved Dix and was not fearful of him at those time and did not believe the warnings. She loved Dix at the time of those warnings and wanted to believe the best in him. But after seeing Dix's violence in the Joe College incident, these warnings had new meaning. She thought that maybe those warnings were true after all.

 

Because she loved him and was on his side there is no reason to believe she was being deceitful in not telling him. She didn't tell him because she thought it would do more harm that good. People do that in life, even and perhaps especially with ones we love. She was not "keeping secrets" in the way that phrase is usually used, that is, to connote deceit. I think this is evident at the beach scene. If I look at how Gloria is portraying Laural in that scene, I see innocence. She is not defensive. After Dix storms away, Laural says, "Oh, I should have told him, not in a way as in Oh that's what I get for trying to deceive him, but in a way as in Oh darn, maybe I should have told him in an everyday sort of way, almost as if it was an afterthought. The way she comes across on the screen is very important to me and I want to be careful not to attribute motives to her that I don't see to be there. It can always be insisted that she should have told him but I consider that to be idle speculation and not a reasonable inference of what is actually taking place on the screen. I want to especially be careful not to moralize too much on what she should do and instead focus on what she does do and in the doing shows us who she is.

 

But enough, the swords are at rest . I won't do a line-by-line response to that fine post you did, Miss Goddess, I will probably write a few short paragraphs some time later on these issues. I watched the movie a couple of nights ago and it clarified a few thing for me. I would now disavow some of my earlier musings and I have you, in part, to thank for this. The depth of your analyses can be quite dizzying and your cogent arguments are formidable. Now if I could just get you and Frank to like Laural a little more .

 

I love this movie and I hope the current discussion continues for a while. And when it fades out I hope it revives from time to time. God knows there's a lot to talk about. And of course it's always nice having Gloria near the top of the thread list.