Gloria Grahame a complete package

[laffite]

*Ok... I meandered a bit on all this... thanks for putting up w/ me folks. Hope this all made at least a little sense.*

 

Yes, you did. Thank you for writing all that. I would like to respond to some of what you wrote, hopefully within the next couple of days.

 

[FrankGrimes]

All right, it's about time Laurel got her spanking.

 

It is my belief that Laurel completely changes on Dix and she does so due to her own personal problems. This change leads to one deception after another. She torpedoes their relationship.

 

When we first get to know Laurel, she is confronted with the following:

 

 

 

 

So how does she handle being told Dix is a potential murder suspect? She handles it with great ease and confidence. She doesn't flinch. She's not even embarrassed to admit she finds this man attractive. This is a very important introduction of Laurel.

 

Then Dix meets up with Laurel outside the interrogation room and he asks her if he can see her home. Her reply:

 

 

This is yet another strong, confident reply from Laurel. She's in control.

 

So does Laurel decide to run away from this potential murder suspect? How many women would say to themselves, "you know, I like his face, but I'm not going to go near a guy who had a girl over at his place just last night and she ends up dead the next day"?

 

What does Laurel do?:

 

 

Laurel goes right over to meet Dix. She is unafraid. Dix is feeling good about Laurel coming over to see him, so he attempts to kiss her. Her response:

 

 

 

Yet again, Laurel shows Dix and us that she is a woman in control. She is thinking for herself.

 

Dix then sizes up Laurel... correctly:

 

 

Dix again attempts to take control of Laurel, by saying (not asking) they will have dinner together that night. Laurel replies:

 

 

Laurel is completely in control. Dix has no say with her.

 

Dix then sizes up Laurel... incorrectly:

 

 

 

 

 

It's this incorrect judgment of Laurel that is going to end up costing Dix his love. The thing is, the Laurel he first meets IS a "good guy." She is thinking for herself, she is acting on her own feelings. She's in charge. The third cap is a very important one. Dix is glad she's on HIS side.

 

Dix then has dinner with the Nicolai's. Afterwards, he decides to stop by Laurel's apartment. And this scene is very important in continuing to establish the mindset and feelings of both Dix and Laurel.

 

Look at Dix after he knocks on Laurel's door:

 

 

He's a nervous wreck. This tough, violent man is quaking in his shoes like a schoolboy. Laurel has turned him inside and out. Dix is completely taken by Laurel. Has any woman ever had this effect on Dix? She has become the most important thing to him. She is the light at the end of his dark tunnel.

 

Laurel lets Dix in and then she says:

 

 

That's not a polite invitation, that's a command. Again, we are seeing Laurel in command.

 

When Dix finally sits down, we once again see him as a nervous wreck:

 

 

Meanwhile, Laurel sits confidently:

 

 

Dix asks Laurel if she had thought about their being together and her reply is:

 

 

Dix then asks when she made that decision and she answers:

 

 

Laurel is precise and exact with her thinking and feelings at this point. Why? For they are her own.

 

After Dix and Laurel kiss for the first time we see this scene:

 

 

They are playing "house." Laurel has resurrected Dix. She has given him a reason to live again, and the odds are he's never felt like this before. Laurel has become Dix's lifeforce.

 

And what about Laurel? How does she feel? Well, she tells us... :

 

 

Laurel wouldn't trade her place with anyone. She is extremely happy. Dix and Laurel are a happy, loving couple.

 

I also think the following small moments are very important:

 

 

 

Why are these moments important? Because Laurel IS on Dix's side. She is looking out for him. Mel is not to read his work before it's finished and Effie isn't to disturb him.

 

So what have we seen thus far? We've seen a confident Laurel stand up to the police and stand up to Dix. We've seen a confident Laurel seek Dix out despite knowing his situaiton. We've seen a confident Laurel make the decision to accept Dix into her life and the two of them find a happiness that neither has ever (most likely) experienced before.

 

Right after Laurel tells Dix she wouldn't change her place with "kings," we get this:

 

 

Laurel remains self-assured and on the side of Dix:

 

 

Will she remain so?

 

At this point, In a Lonely Place starts to remind me of The Birds. If you are not familiar with my take on Hitch's thriller, I'll let you know that I believe it is a film about love and the fight for love. The "birds" are attacking Mitch (Rod Taylor) and Melanie's (Tippi Hedren) potential union. Can they stick together to survive the attacks? Melanie is the one who is being placed under the microscope, just as Dix is here.

 

First off, Laurel makes her statement:

 

 

Then it's time for Captain Lochner (Carl Benton Reid) to challenge Laurel's statement:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The captain goes on to tell Laurel that Dix is an "erratic, violent man" and that he has a fascination with killing. Laurel replies with:

 

 

Does she mean this, or is she just saying this? How strong is Laurel's love for Dix? Lochner's interrogation of Laurel is "bird" attack number one.

 

Dix and Laurel then spend the eveving together at a club where she tells him:

 

 

Then it's time we meet Martha. One of the first things we hear Martha telling Laurel is this:

 

 

 

In otherwords, Laurel can't be a real wife. And it would be crazy for her to be happy as this. Laurel replies with:

 

 

And I believe this is the truth. Like Lochner, Martha continues onward, pushing her own agenda in the disguise of what's "best for Laurel":

 

 

Martha would go on to tell her about Frances Randolph and how Dix "beat her up and broke her nose." Finally, Laurel fires this off:

 

 

Once again, Laurel stands up against the words of another. But does she? This is "bird" attack number two.

 

The next scene is the beach party with the Nicolai's. This is where Dix first learns of Laurel's being "unfaithful" to him. She has gone behind his back. She was looking to "protect" him. But was she? Was that her aim? Would it not have been best to tell him the truth? Isn't that being on his side?

 

Dix drives off like a mad man. He is furious. Why is he furious? It's my belief that he feels that Laurel has betrayed him. He almost beats "Joe College" to death, for his anger is at a very heightened state. He eventually calms down and I believe he forgives Laurel.

 

Laurel goes on to visit Sylvia (Jeff Donnell). She is hoping Sylvia will make her believe Dix isn't a maniac. She is now looking for others to do the thinking for her. She has gone from being her own woman to one who is being led around by others. The "outsiders" have shaken her confidence. They have entered the "house," the once loving house.

 

From here, we go into the nightmare sequence. Although this device is on the cheesy side and it's all about spoon-feeding the audience, we do learn what's going through Laurel's mind. And what is it? The words of others. The seeds have been planted and Laurel has allowed them to take root. She wasn't strong enough to fight them off.

 

The next scene has Dix seeing Laurel in her apartment. We first get this:

 

 

Just as Laurel did for Dix earlier, he does the same for her. He is looking out for the one he loves.

 

Dix is then confronted with yet another deception. He finds out Laurel is taking pills. Why doesn't he know about this? How many things is Laurel hiding from him?

 

Dix then proposes to Laurel and she accepts. But even prior to this, she tells him that she loves him. Does she? I believe she does.

 

I do understand Laurel's fear of rejecting Dix and how he'd react to her. I do understand her worrying about her health at this point. I think the film does take on the feeling of what an abused woman would feel and how lying is a survival tactic. My beef with Laurel is her lying to Dix the first time and then her allowing others do the thinking for her. She completely changed on Dix. I do understand her starting to believe the words of others after seeing Dix almost beat "Joe College" to death.

 

From here on, all Laurel does is lie to Dix. We even get man's favorite:

 

 

My contention is that Laurel starts off being one kind of woman but she turns into another. Or, it just may be how she is. She starts strong and ends weak, since she's a runner. I thought her allowing others to enter her "house" was very wrong of her. It burnt down that house of love.

 

I really think this film is about being faithful to the one you love. The moment you are unfaithful to the one you love, you are inviting all kinds of trouble. I even think Mildred Atkinson's murder is linked to unfaithfulness. Do I think those who are unfaithful should be physically harmed or killed? Absolutely not. But the feeling one gets after being betrayed by the one they love the most can have the sting of a thousand deaths.

[JackFavell]

Well, that was quite fascinating, roadkill.

 

I have been coming down on Laurel's side all along, I even see why she said nothing to Dix about going to the police, but I think you have a great point here. They are beset from outside, and cannot withstand the pressure. I've seen "close friends" want to wreck a loving relationship if it jeopardizes their place in the heart of a "best friend".

 

My conclusion just from looking at your caps is that Ray is making a statement about marriage and how it kills a relationship dead by binding the parties together too closely. Yes, that little piece of paper forcing one to conform to a set of rules created by others defining your relationship can destroy that same relationship.

 

Everything is going along fine, but the minute the two really "live" together, doubts enter the picture.That lock on the relationship dooms them. When each one has no way to escape, the dynamic changes - Dix becomes suspicious and violent, and Laurel becomes a liar and "unfaithful". Maybe I am reading too much into it, but this is what I get. Is Ray actually saying that this is how it is with all marriages? I think he may be drawing that conclusion, although I think he is wrong. I feel that he is subliminally making the anti-fifties film, a film that subverts the standard outcome of the traditional Hollywood ending where everyone lives happily ever after as soon as the wedding ring is placed on the finger.

 

As long as Laurel and Dix are in casual relationships, their "friends" seem to think everything is fine, everyone gets along great. But once he and Laurel become deeply committed, every character (including themselves) tries to destroy what they have, and the "marriage" falls apart.

[FrankGrimes]

Hey, Jackie -- Is Ray actually saying that this is how it is with all marriages? I think he may be drawing that conclusion, although I think he is wrong.

 

I'm not sure about that. Dix doesn't change who he is. What changes with him is that he goes from miserable to extremely happy. Laurel changes. I also think Dix is pretty much honest whereas Laurel is dishonest. Dix is out in the open, too much so because his anger is too honest. Laurel is hiding, which is her history. She is looking to "avoid."

 

As long as Laurel and Dix are in casual relationships, their "friends" seem to think everything is fine, everyone gets along great. But once he and Laurel become deeply committed, every character (including themselves) tries to destroy what they have, and the "marriage" falls apart.

 

See, I don't think Dix tries to destroy their relationship. He was just being himself. I think he was very trusting of Laurel and this is why he was stunned to find out she went behind his back. And then she keeps doing it. Laurel ends up being distrusting of Dix.

 

Interestingly, the last time we are in Dix's apartment, they are happy in love. We never go back to his place. I think it's because from that point on, she wasn't on his side.

 

When we first see Dix and Laurel together in his place, we do so through a window. We are on the outside. We are being kept away. Look at how Laurel greets Mel from Dix's place:

 

 

Even Mel is being kept on the "outside."

 

When Martha is with Laurel in her apartment, they are in one room together while Dix is in another.

 

 

In the above cap, Martha is mocking Dix's long breakfast order for Laurel to cook while Laurel is laughing and smiling. She loves him and his needing her. She loves the guy. But since Martha has her isolated away from Dix, she has some power over her. The wrong person has been allowed into the "house."

 

I feel that he is subliminally making the anti-fifties film, a film that subverts the standard outcome of the traditional Hollywood ending where everyone lives happily ever after as soon as the wedding ring is placed on the finger.

 

I'm not sure. As I said in my prior post, I think the film is about being faithful and trusting the one you love. I also think the film is a warning against allowing the wrong people into your "house" (your relationship).

[butterscotchgreer]

im gonna take a wild shot in the dark if franki wont get too terribly angry with little ol' me....heehee!....

 

can we talk about Gloria's more screwball performances too? pretty please with sugar on top! i dont wanna interrupt your conversation Jackie and everyone else honest! i was only wondering...

 

what about her as Aldo Annie in Oklahoma? i just loved her in that movie!

 

hey dont be mad frankie, youre the one who told me join in the conversation! heehee!

[FrankGrimes]

can we talk about Gloria's more screwball performances too? pretty please with sugar on top!

 

No! It's a trap! You only wish to strangle me like Dix.

 

what about her as Aldo Annie in Oklahoma? i just loved her in that movie!

 

That's a musical! Yuck!

 

hey dont be mad frankie, youre the one who told me join in the conversation! heehee!

 

I'm mad because you always lock me out! I've got frostbite!

[butterscotchgreer]

*No! It's a trap! You only wish to strangle me like Dix.*

 

nu-uh! Youre luckier than Dix! heehee!

 

*That's a musical! Yuck!*

 

maybe youre just too sissy too like an actual musical...and one that gloria is in at that! if you like Gloria as much as you say, then you would at least watch it once.

 

*I'm mad because you always lock me out! I've got frostbite!*

 

i do not! i always tell you when im leaving! and if an emergency just happens to come up, thats what the prince and princess mittens are for! how many times do i have to remind you?

[FrankGrimes]

Hey there, Grahame's Guy -- I agree with you here. People who have issues controlling their anger often walk away as a means to gain control or keep from losing it. If Dix felt Laurel betrayed him, then he should have brought it up later. That was an issue he wasn't guessing about or clueless about. He should have confronted her, shouldn't he? It was a red flag he ignored. Laurel isn't the only one to blame here.

 

But I don't think guys are very good at expressing their feelings or "talking things out," especially guys from that generation. Dix was upset and stormed off. Laurel knew exactly why he was upset. He didn't need to spell it out for her. It would be different if Laurel didn't know what set Dix off. And, they really did talk this out in the car. Laurel was pretty tough on Dix and he took it well.

 

This is an interesting difference of perspectives regarding this film. Some feel the line rings hollow considering all that has occurred. I feel that way. I understand why the film is set up the way it is, with the Atkinson murder hanging in the background. I mean, it's what brought them together in the first place, but I still believe Laurel has enough evidence of Dix's violent behavior other than Mildred's murder, hard evidence like the police reports,that she reached a point of no return with witnessing the beating.

 

What the "Joe College" beating confirmed was that Dix could be violent when upset and he could get to a level of killing someone. But Laurel also knew what set him off with "Joe College." I could get very upset with a punk guy and wish to fight him but that doesn't mean I'd ever strike the woman I loved.

 

The reason the Atkinson murder still matters is because Mildred was a woman, a woman Dix hardly knew. If Dix were cleared of that, Laurel's fears would lessen, significantly so. Keep in mind, Laurel never saw a violent Dix prior to "Joe College." He was nothing but kind and loving with her. So what everyone else was saying about Dix wasn't the Dix she knew.

 

It's similar to everyone saying how nice and sweet Miss G is when all I know is a mean, snippy girl. :p

 

I really did go over that scene again and again. Her conversation before it, which is in my caps, and her serious tone when she is driving home right afterward led me to believe she wasn't being so gentle. I used to think that she was being more gentle, but not now. Of course we have our enigmatic Gloria Grahame delivering the line of an enigmatic Laurel Gray but I thought she delivered it with a more serious tone. Contempt was too strong a word though. I was writing in the heat of battle.

 

I think she was scolding him, like a mother would her son. She thought it was silly and ridiculous that he would lose his lid over words.

 

 

Laurel scolds and shames Dix earlier in the film, too:

 

 

 

 

One more thing, you and Miss Goddess, don't have much use for Martha. Gloria tells Dix that she is married, has a kid in college, and that she sees her twice a week. The scene between them may be a lot of things, it is definitely an eye opener, there is an almost lascivious nature to it. She does speak strangely to Laurel.

 

Martha is no good. She's a domineering presence in Laurel's life. I guess she's my "Alice" (Jane Randolph in Cat People).

 

Irenically, I actually see Irena and Dix being somewhat similar in that both feel betrayed by their love yet it's they who are seen as the monster.

 

What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else?

 

Well, Martha does know Laurel and she has seen Laurel run before and the person she runs back to is her. She's her "mother." Martha is playing mind games with Laurel. She's looking to control Laurel. But the only person who can allow this to happen is Laurel. And since Laurel is weak, she proves Martha right, time and time again. This only makes Martha stronger and more controlling. She's far more abusive to Laurel than Dix.

 

 

 

When she talks of being back at Baker's beside that nice pool, I didn't get the idea that she was sponging off Laurel. She might be controlling. What does she do really?

 

I can see Dix putting his foot down and squashing Martha in time, but the Baker guy probably wouldn't. Martha is in danger with Dix.

 

She doesn't like Dix. She knows he beat up an old girlfriend and she doesn't want Laurel with a man like that. So? That is perfectly understandable.

 

If Martha's primary concern about Dix is that he broke Frances' nose, then I would be fine with Martha looking to dissuade Laurel. But Martha starts off by telling Laurel that she shouldn't be looking to be a "housewife." She has disdain for this. That doesn't work. Then she tells her they should be by a lovely pool. That doesn't interest Laurel. So then Martha decides to the throw the Atkinson murder in Laurel's face. Then it's Frances. I view Martha as a parent who is attempting to sway their daughter's choice in man for their own reasons.

 

Dix and Mildred share a scene that is similar:

 

 

 

A mother may find Henry to be perfect for their daughter, but the daughter knows her guy needs to stimulate her in other areas for her to truly love him.

[CineMaven]

Maybe I'm being naive here. I don't know what kind of history Martha has with Laurel, but it does sound like more than just a client relationship. Still, I'm not ready to be as hard on Martha as you two are.

 

I'm sure CineMaven will have something to say about this.

 

Well I guess I should rap this post up. Or just shut up! ;-) Is anyone still reading?

 

 

You're doing wonderfully Sir MadHat. I've been much too revelatory already. I'll hang back and listen. This discussion is a great read.

[JackFavell]

*What the "Joe College" beating confirmed was that Dix could be violent when upset and he could get to a level of killing someone. But Laurel also knew what set him off with "Joe College." I could get very upset with a punk guy and wish to fight him but that doesn't mean I'd ever strike the woman I loved.*

 

*The reason the Atkinson murder still matters is because Mildred was a woman, a woman Dix hardly knew. If Dix were cleared of that, Laurel's fears would lessen, significantly so. Keep in mind, Laurel never saw a violent Dix prior to "Joe College." He was nothing but kind and loving with her. So what everyone else was saying about Dix wasn't the Dix she knew.*

 

I have to take exception here at what you are saying about Dix - that he would never beat up a woman or that just because he beat up a punk kid doesn't mean he would beat his girlfriend whom he loved - this doesn't ring true with me. You say that Dix is upset at Joe College because he is a punk, and yet, even though you brought it up earlier, now we are to discount the fact that Dix's anger at LAUREL precipitated the beating. He was mad at Laurel, and so he beat some guy almost to death. He is in fact, not beating up Joe College, he is in effect beating up LAUREL in this scene, and Laurel KNOWS it. She knows what set him off. THAT is why she is afraid of Dix.

[rohanaka]

He was mad at Laurel, and so he beat some guy almost to death. He is in fact, not beating up Joe College, he is in effect beating up LAUREL in this scene, and Laurel KNOWS it. She knows what set him off. THAT is why she is afraid of Dix.

 

Bingo! (at least that was a big part of it... because now, along with what she was hearing she was seeing it for herself)

 

(PS Mr. Squirrel.... I may not see your thoughts on Laurel and Dix "eye to eye' but WOW... mighty fine screencapping, sir)

[FrankGrimes]

Good morning, Little Red Buick -- I have to take exception here at what you are saying about Dix - that he would never beat up a woman

 

I didn't say he "never" would, because I believe he did smack Frances and then we see him strangle Laurel.

 

or that just because he beat up a punk kid doesn't mean he would beat his girlfriend whom he loved - this doesn't ring true with me.

 

That is what I was getting at. I can get angry at many people in my life and I can look to hit a few of them but it doesn't mean I'd ever touch my woman in a similar manner. The one doesn't automatically equal the other. Male anger isn't that simple.

 

You say that Dix is upset at Joe College because he is a punk, and yet, even though you brought it up earlier, now we are to discount the fact that Dix's anger at LAUREL precipitated the beating. He was mad at Laurel, and so he beat some guy almost to death. He is in fact, not beating up Joe College, he is in effect beating up LAUREL in this scene, and Laurel KNOWS it. She knows what set him off. THAT is why she is afraid of Dix.

 

But I agree with Dix, not Laurel. Dix is angry at Laurel's being unfaithful to him, so he takes off. He doesn't leave Laurel behind, he waits for her to get in the car. If he was violent to her, why wait for her? Then Laurel is in the car. Why not smack her right then and there? He's plenty angry, so why doesn't he? Then Laurel offers him a cigarette. Why doesn't he smack it away from him? He isn't violent with Laurel.

 

Is Dix steaming over Laurel's being unfaithful? Absolutely. I know I would be. I'd be a house of fire. This is what causes him to drive like a maniac. He then sideswipes "Joe College." "Joe College" jumps out of the car and gets right in the face of Dix. He's now the aggressor. Dix takes it. He attempts to calm the situation down with "take it easy." But "Joe College" persists and then he challenges Dix to a fight. I believe Dix's anger is clearly aimed at "Joe College" and it's because he challenged Dix.

 

Yes, I do believe his anger at Laurel is included in his beatdown of "Joe College." But I don't think he was beating Laurel. And, yes, it's basically the same as taking a bad day out on someone else. You've had a lousy day and then someone does something to you and your anger level is twice as much as it normally would. That's why I keep saying Dix's anger is "heightened."

 

My wife or child could have really upset me during the day and then a guy comes along and challenges me to a fight. I'm going to have a little extra anger stored up. And, yes, he will serve as my release of that anger. But it doesn't mean I'm using that guy as a way to beat my wife or child. It's more about the release of anger, not a proxy for my wife or child.

 

Guys will often go workout to release their anger. If I was smacking a punching bag around, it's for me to get rid of my angry feelings. It's not that the bag serves as my wife or child.

 

But I do agree with you, I think Laurel views "Joe College" as her. She felt Dix was beating her up, not him.

 

And, let me tell you, as a guy, I've been there. When a guy gets angry, you need a way to get that feeling out of your system, immediately. It must be set free.

[MissGoddess]

SPOILERS!!!

 

I just wanted to point out a couple of "mise-en-scene" cues that I think

support your contentious contentions, MrGrimes. I'm no expert on interpreting

framing, positioning/juxtapositioning, but certain things just jumped out at me

as they seem to contradict even what is going on within action and dialogue

of the scene. I apologize for the length, it got away from me.

 

First of all, two of Dix's most vocal antagonists (the police and Martha) assume very

dominant positions in relation to Laurel in these instances:

 

 

This positioning seems to indicate they are influencing her, inordinately so. It wouldn't

register quite as strongly except for the contrasting fact that Dix and Laurel are typically filmed in a more balanced, objective relation to one another, suggesting equanamity, which further

COUNTERS the supposedly sinister effect of Dix's presence in Laurel's life. In other

words, the director seems to be indicating what Laurel is being told about Dix by others and what the reality is, are two different things:

 

Laurel even assumes a dominant position to Dix, or I should more correctly say,

the position of influence, protection and love. Dix's guard is totally down, like a

child's.

 

 

On an equal plane...

 

Even after troublesome thoughts have arisen in Laurel's mind, Dix is still shown

in an equal two-shot.

 

This one I'll just throw in for fun, look what Laurel's leaning against..the refrigerator,

while there's ol' Dix, percalating.

 

And then I noticed this, particularly when I was watching it on the big screen.

 

 

Did you ever notice how concillatory the police are with this jasper? Why? Because he's

smooth, he's oh, so coorperative. "Any time! I'm glad to help!" Not real broken up by his girl's

death, either, by the way. Henry is the ANTI-DIX (sounds like a vaccine!). He is EVERYTHING

Dix is not...he's not abrasive, not sarcastic, smart alecky, rebellious...or true.

 

But the cops seem to love Mr Smarmy Pants and Lochner LOATHES Dix, he cannot WAIT to

lock him up. He thinks he has him. He treats Dix with barely concealed contempt and loves

dragging him in at all hours of the morning. He thinks he's finally got the case that can nail this

guy who's been bugging him with that record of violence.

 

This exchange is Dix?s position in the eyes of the authorities, in a nutshell. And look at

Lochner?s shift in position over Dix, nevertheless, Dix keeps on with the potentially damaging

smart aleck come-backs:

 

 

Notice what is behind Lochner if you can see it?it?s part of a bulletin board with a graph on it?

right next to Lochner?s head we can see the word ?STATISTICS?. That?s interesting to me

because that?s basically how Lochner?s mind works. He sizes up suspects according to the

book, by experience, and so he is thrown on the wrong track when he gets someone before him

who can?t fit into any easy category. Dix has a violent temper and he?s thumbing his nose at my

authority, ergo, Dix must be a killer.

 

 

 

Dix is like a "Skip McCoy" (Pick-Up on South Street), someone the cops love to lay the

blame on first thing. Only he's a bigger fish, one that would look mighty good on the Captain's

record if he could land him behind bars.

 

When Lochner says this:

 

...and this:

 

...I think we are being told the opposite of the truth as Lochner sees it. First,

because Dix is NOT hiding anything, he's the only character in the movie who is

really totally open---too much so, in fact---and secondly, for Dix to be named so early on

as the "most logical suspect" is actually a tip-off that he is anything but that---at least

in a Nicholas Ray film. Ray isn't filming Dorothy Hughes' novel, he's filming HIS

movie and he's really messing with perspectives, and showing just how easily

fear and prejudice can mislead even a smart person's judgment. He even gives

us plenty of "logical reasons" to support all our worst fears about Dix, they are

the one thing Ray never flinches about showing. It's in our face, he's a scary character

when riled. What Lochner can't "see" (nor can most of the audience, easily, because he barely shows up but for two quick scenes) is the most illogical suspect: Mildred's boyfriend,

Henry, and when we do see him he's nice, smooth and polite. He?s exactly the kind of guy mothers invite to tea for their daughters to meet and hopefully marry. Mothers bar their door against Dix Steele.

 

In fact, Dix himself calls it when he first meets Nice-and-Polite:

 

LOL!! This is my favorite line in the whole movie. I love Dix Steele.

 

Dix has just done Lochner?s work for him. Because Dix doesn?t have a blotter for a mind, he?s

quick and imaginative and by his own boast, an ?expert in murder?. And though there is a

noose hanging around his neck, he?s just told the truth to audience---but his violence will make it

hard for the audience, and Laurel, to believe.

 

By the way, I believe Dix?s going to Nicolai at the station shows just how well Dix ?handles it?

that Laurel was asked in for questioning behind his back. Dix doesn?t sneak around with the

cops, he doesn?t hide and wait for them to drag him in again, he confronts Brub, politely but

firmly, to tell him he should come to him directly. I like that because it says a lot about Dix?s

honestly and integrity. Again, his violence tends to hang like a cloud over the facts here

presented in these moments.

 

And one last thing. I noticed this bit of "foreshadowing" in the first scene

between Dix and Laurel in her apartment, when he's just gotten the nerve to ask her to dinner.

 

 

 

 

Notice what is quite prominently placed between them?

 

But when Laurel tells Dix she's decided to go out with him, he is shown leaning

forward, blocking the phone, which I find rather interesting because it's

such a slight reposition of the camera, so slight it becomes suggestive:

[JackFavell]

That's really fantastic, MissG! Very very interesting. You and Grimesy have got me thinking in a whole new way.

[laffite]

This post grew into more than I intended and so I apologize for its length. So I thank you in advance for your indulgence and I hope you'll stick with it. Some of this I've said before but repeated because of contextual significance.---Laffite

 

Bonjour *Miss Goddess* As an FYI, *Molo* referred to your long post to me and I took the opportunity to respond in conjunction with my responses to Molo.

 

All bold entries are from *Molo* unless otherwise specified:

 

*From Laurel's perspective it was no great sin not to tell Dix ((about Lochner?s visit)). He was really working away on the screenplay too. He is an artist and is probably often "handled" by those around him to facilitate his work. He should be used to that and it could have been a factor in Laurel's thinking, but Dix certainly doesn't want that sort of behavior from her, not from the woman he loves, particularly about something so important.*

 

I agree with you on both counts. I?ve maintained that Laural was not ?keeping secrets? in that nefarious sense that people do when they are really being deceitful and you seem to agree in that you say that not telling him was ?no great sin.? And perhaps Dix doesn?t want that sort of behavior but this wouldn?t occur to Laural if she feels she was acting in good faith. It?s important to remember that this stage of the relationship, they are very much in love and she has yet to actually witness violent behavior from Dix. She has only been fed this information from Lochner and the masseuse and she resisted believing it and therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that she might felt that the visit was no big deal anyway. But I understand those who say she might have told him just as a matter of course but the fact she didn?t does not represent a great deceit in her mind and it?s important for me to realize that fact if I want to treat her fairly.

 

*As the film moves from that point on, I put a lot of my emphasis on Laurel's fear. I lose sight of Dix's perspective. Miss Goddess and Frank are driving that point home to me.*

 

We can actually see that. From Joe College on the film practically shifts to her point of view. It?s her fear that becomes the focus of the story. This corresponds with the thriller aspect, namely, is Laural in any danger staying with Dix. She gets the point of view so that we can experience her fear and wonder whether she should get out of the relationship or not to what extent her life might be in danger. *Molo*, you provide a cap that shows Dix saying to Laural, ?You drive,? when they are in car just after the bashing of JoeC. She does drive, she drives the telling of the story from that point on by having it told from her perspective.

 

*I can't put my head around the idea that Laurel suspects Dix of murder in the case of Mildred, She was his alibi and I think she knows that it doesn't fit with his character. I know she mentions it to Sylvia but I don't think that is her real concern, I think she realizes that Dix can become violent when provoked and also when he is deeply invested in something. She knows he is deeply invested in her and that he may well turn on her if she doesn't play him right. This is all after the beating of "Joe College" of course. Laurel is thinking less about hurting Dix and more about her own preservation. Can we blame her? Well yes, from Dix's perspective we can, but what about from a general perspective.*

 

No, we cannot blame her from a ?general perspective.? Laural is gripped with fear and we have seen why. I cannot ignore that and cannot say that she should place Dix?s perspective above her own just because of the idealized commandment that one should be completely honest with the one that we love. We are given an entire scene to show how difficult it would be to approach Dix with her concerns. Brub?s wife actually asks Laural point blank, ?Why don?t you talk to Dix, tell him how you feel.? Laural responds, ?What can I say to him? I love you but I?m afraid of you? I want to marry you but first convince me that Lochner is wrong and you didn?t kill Mildred Atikinson.? Let?s appreciate how difficult this might be to say to Dix. It?s not reasonable to assume that she should go ahead and say that simply because that being honest with him is the right thing to do. We can?t always just do the right thing. If we could, life would be easy. The fact is that she is too afraid to do that and this scene is telling us that. If there was any indication in this scene that Laural was not telling the truth and was perhaps making excuses for not wanting ?to be honest? with Dix, then I might fault her. But she has nothing up her sleeve. I believe she is telling the truth about her fear and I believe she has good reason to have that fear. If I now fault her for not being more forthcoming to Dix, I am not being fair to her. She is only human and I cannot expect her to obey mindlessly some moral dictum about being honest with the one you love when she has legitimate concerns as to the consequences. I must be fair with her in that regard.

 

*((( Frank and Miss Goddess))) make very good points in Dix's favor. Yet every time I watch I start out in Dix's corner and end up in Laurel's. The beating after the beach scene is the turning point for me. I'm not alone in this view.*

 

Clearly, it the turning point of the film. Laural almost becomes a different person. I have no trouble believing why she changed and I think we have seen why.

 

*Yet Frank and Miss Goddess bring up points that I can't dismiss.*

 

What points, exactly?

 

*_Miss Goddess writes to Laffite_: What responsibility? What did he do? You mean his temper? Laurel doesn't want to leave Dix because he fights, she wants to leave him because she thinks he's killed once before and that means he'll kill again. Since he did not kill Mildred, from his point of view he has nothing to take responsibility for. She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.*

 

*_Molo writes in answer to Miss Goddess:_ This I just don't believe. When she talks to Sylvia and Mel, she brings up the violence first and then mentions that maybe she thinks he did in Mildred. If Laurel really thought he killed Mildred she would have left him and started running. She's a gal that gets out when the going gets rough. Murder is pretty rough. She is still trying to figure it all out. Yes she is "wishy washy" as you said when we argued this out months ago. It's his temper that scares her though, and how far he might go.*

 

*Miss Goddess*: When I referred to ?responsibility? in my post to you I recall speaking generally that his violent temper will have repercussions and that he is responsible for that. I think I was responding to your sentiment that though Dix?s reactions are excessive, they were nevertheless rightly provoked and I responded that though provoked Dix still has to own the consequence of those reactions, some of which were quite costly. I believe, indirectly, at least that when he smashed JoeC he alienated Laural and he never got her back. Now, I admit that these kinds of cause-and-effect variables, if taken to the extreme leads nowhere but given the crucial and pivotal nature of this incident, easily the most egregious and less sympathetic act of the entire story, I would attach a particular significance to it. Because Dix's reaction was so excessive and condemnatory by any standard, he should take responsibility for that, quashing this notion that his actions are the result of real provocation and that how much he over reacts doesn't matter. It matters a great deal. Laural never got over it and Dix exacerbated the situation by trying to reel her back in by control and possessiveness, further driving her away. Laural is much more sympathetic in her plight than Dix is, in my view, and it's just fair to blame her for everything.

 

On the question whether or not Laural thought that Dix killed Mildred, it became a possibility for her after the Joe College incident because she saw his violence and this was a part of her fear. But if she had been absolutely convinced of it I would agree with Molo that she would have taken flight much earlier. I believe she went a long way with Dix and I believe she did not decide to leave Dix until she was forced to agree to marriage.

 

As has been discussed over and over it seems, I believe Laural was not intending to leave Dix until that marriage proposal scene. The idea to leave was born with the JoeC bashing but that alone did not make up her mind to go. Otherwise she wouldn?t have chided Dix about losing his temper over a few words. There was something almost affectionate the way she said, ?Oh was that so bad, calling you that.? If she had already decided to leave him she wouldn?t have come across that way. And later before the proposal there is that scene in the kitchen when she chides him a bit for bending the grapefruit knife, there?s no sense here that she is so fed up at that point that she had decided to leave.

 

Here?s where it happens, in my view. She was with him until the marriage proposal. She was against the marriage not because she was afraid of commitment but because he frightened her away by insisting too soon. She told him he loved her on the couch, he proposed marriage and a trip to Vegas that very evening, she said can we wait, he says he wanted an answer in 10 seconds, alarmed she goes to the kitchen, he follows her and presses her shoulders and says, "Your 10 seconds are up." (Ten seconds, for God's sake!) and asks her again, and now---here?s where it happens---she says, ?Of course, I?ll marry you but?? and he says, ?No, no, no, no...no of course, no buts, no why, a simple yes or no will do, a simple yes or not will do just fine.? What she was going to say, IMO, when he didn?t let her finish was, ?Of course, I?ll marry you but can we just wait a little,? or something like that. But he forced a yes from her and she became highly upset. You can see that on her face. She couldn't abide the marriage, not with her unresolved fears. This is when she decided to leave and called Martha.

 

With all the Laural bashing, why can?t we agree that Dix might have done something wrong here. And yet he is imprisoned with his fears just as Laural is. Their respective plights are oddly similar, not perhaps in form but in content. They are both afraid. I just don't think that Laural should get all the blame nor even the lion's share of it. In the marriage proposal scene there is nothing in her behavior that would indicate anything other that she was fearful, and sympathetically so. She was not trying to deceive him or be evasive. She is perfectly credible and honest in this scene. That carries weight with me. And yet she is the one who won?t make a commitment? She?s the one who won?t talk? She?s the one who is not being honest? I believe Dix brought himself down.

 

I know I sound cross, but I'm not. Honest.

 

And *Miss Goddess,* you wrote above in your post to me,

 

*?She's not leaving him because of Joe College, and the incident with Joe College would not have even taken place if she hadn't gone behind his back to the police, making him feel betrayed and drive off.?*

 

And *Miss Goddess*, I don't think Laural did go ?behind his back to the police.? At least I didn?t see that way. Remember the scene. Laural is arriving home and is intercepted by Nicolai. ?Lochner wants to speak with you.? Her face hardens. She says, ?I have nothing to say to him.? She does not want to go. Then without transition we see at her at the police station. This doesn?t mean that she went willingly. She was forced to go. If you refuse to cooperate in an investigation they can arrest you. She had no choice and she clearly did not want to be there. And this bears out when we see her at the police station. Her face is taut and she is very nearly uncooperative. She declares she loves Dix and doesn?t believe these stories about his violence. She actually defends him. She is happy to get out of there.

 

All the more reason to give her a break for not telling Dix about the Lochner meeting. She didn?t want to go in the first place. She was forced to go and had no reason to feel defensive about it. She had no reason to feel she did anything wrong. And she must have felt, quite rightly, that telling him would worry him and do more harm than good. Yes, she might have told him anyway but it was a good-faith decision not telling him, in my view, and she should not be faulted. She was not being willfully deceitful and it?s important to make that distinction. If that distinction is not made, then she is not being treated fairly, IMO.

 

You know, I think that this is the case with both them. They each must act in accordance with their own perspective and perhaps cannot be faulted. It's possible that neither is really the blame. That they grew apart was inevitable. There's a beauty of logic to that. Consider that at the end of this story, there is no winner. They are both unhappy. As *Molo* said, *"One of the sad aspects of this film is that Dix and Laurel never have the conversation they need to have."* And as a result neither gets what they want.

 

*One more thing, (((Frank))) and Miss Goddess, don't have much use for Martha. Gloria tells Dix that she is married, has a kid in college, and that she sees her twice a week. The scene between them may be a lot of things, it is definitely an eye opener, there is an almost lascivious nature to it. She does speak strangely to Laurel. What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else??Maybe I'm being naive here. I don't know what kind of history Martha has with Laurel, but it does sound like more than just a client relationship. Still, I'm not ready to be as hard on Martha as you two are.*

 

Molo, I like your thoughtful approach to Martha. You ask, ?What does she mean when she tells Laurel she'll come back? That she doesn't have anybody else?? The fact is that Martha is the only acquaintance imported into the story from Laural?s life. That?s very curious. Economy might have been factor since in a short movie like this there is no time for a complete network of friends. But instead of a masseuse, the movie might have provided a more conventional friend for her, or even more realistically, an agent. I think they went with Martha simply because it was visually more satisfying---and you point this out, *Molo*, when you refer to these sequences with the masseuse as an ?eye-opener? (if that's what you meant)---to have this rough-talking battle ax of a woman mouthing off like that. That was meant to be entertaining. They exploited her beautifully with that remarkably effective camera shot of Laural?s face in the foreground and the massuse muttering in the background during a massage. I see Martha?s insertion in the story as a device. She serves as another person besides Lochner to issue a warning about Dix and she reminds us about Baker having been in Laural?s life. When Martha says, ?You?ll come back to me because you don?t have anybody else,? is a crux, but it might mean, in effect, you might end up doing what I say, meaning she?ll go back to Baker. Possiiblity. *Cinemaven* in a previous round of discussions of this movie suggested the possibility of a lascivious laison but we can?t say. It doesn?t add to the story in fact might be confusing because Laural?s sexual orientation seems firmly established.

 

*When she talks of being back at Baker's beside that nice pool, I didn't get the idea that she was sponging off Laurel. She might be controlling. What does she do really?*

 

My take is that whatever she does is less important that she is there as a confidant. Others have asked, why does Laural keep her around? A better question is why does the masseuse keep Laural around? Laural has left Baker which represented a salary guarantee for the masseuse. Laural is a starlet, perhaps even a B player in the movies and they make nothing. Laural doesn?t even seem to have an agent but we don?t know that for sure. My guess is that the masseuse is hanging around in an effort to convince Laural to go back to Baker and if Laural doesn?t do that and soon, the masseuse is out of here.

 

*She doesn't like Dix. She knows he beat up an old girlfriend and she doesn't want Laurel with a man like that. So? That is perfectly understandable. When Laurel calls her she responds quickly.*

 

Maybe she responds quickly because the call from Laural is tantamount to a return to Baker, and that?s what the masseuse wants.

 

 

One thing that on one?s picked up on yet is the regard that Dix had for Effie. I believe he was in love with her. There?s a point in the movie where he said something to her that is only barely audible, in fact so much so that you have to turn on closed captioning. It?s when Effie suggests that Dix and Laural get married. He veers---you have to really be attentive to see this---close to Effie and he whispers to her, ?It?s you I want.? He really loved her. Did you see the way he opened the door for her? Also, it?s obvious that as a screenwriter he was enamored with the way she held the cigarette in her mouth. Screenwriters love people like that. He knew she would be great noir. I believe Dix loved her. There is also the way in which Effie wound the electric cord around the vacuum cleaner after she finished vacuuming. There is a certain poetry of motion that brooding romantics like Dix would be attracted to. He should have married her. Effie is the only one who could have rid him of his demons. With Effie in her life the demons would be frightened---no terrified---and go away. This is so obvious but I believe Dix was attached to his demons because he had them to long. This story is really about the tension that existed between Effie and Dix?s demons, a tension that was ripping him apart inside. It?s tragic and it rises Dix to a tragic level. He was a man whose demons were bringing him down and needed a good woman to love him, to calm his torment, to allow him to relax and settle down and find his muse so he could practice his art and sell something besides popcorn. He should have realized that Laural was no good to him any more and married Effie. I don?t doubt for a minute that when Laural stood there and watched Dix walk out, that Effie was waiting for him on the sidewalk. The ending appears to be a sad one but actually it is a very happy one because Effie was out there holding a vacuum cleaner with a cigarette dangling from her mouth and prepared to chase Dix?s demons away for good. And with Laural standing there saying those pretty lines that Dix wrote. Such a beautiful ending. This is an often overlooked aspect of the movie.

 

(the above segment is a spoof)

 

///

 

Edited by: laffite on Nov 10, 2009 11:09 PM

[CineMaven]

Lafitte, ya had me until you mentioned Dix & Effie could have been an item.

[FrankGrimes]

I?ve maintained that Laural was not ?keeping secrets? in that nefarious sense that people do when they are really being deceitful and you seem to agree in that you say that not telling him was ?no great sin.? And perhaps Dix doesn?t want that sort of behavior but this wouldn?t occur to Laural if she feels she was acting in good faith. It?s important to remember that this stage of the relationship, they are very much in love and she has yet to actually witness violent behavior from Dix. She has only been fed this information from Lochner and the masseuse and she resisted believing it and therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that she might felt that the visit was no big deal anyway. But I understand those who say she might have told him just as a matter of course but the fact she didn?t does not represent a great deceit in her mind and it?s important for me to realize that fact if I want to treat her fairly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the above caps, Dix tells Laurel they are going to a beach party that night. She replies with a very enthusiastic, "good." Dix then tells her it's with the Nicolai's. He asks her if she remembers Brub Nicolai. She then says "yes" and pauses a beat and says "vaguely." She knows who Brub is. But she chooses to lie to Dix about her knowing him. Why be deceitful? What's the purpose of deceiving Dix here? To "protect him"? Why? She doesn't fear him. And, as you say, she doesn't think the visit was a big deal, anyway. Shouldn't she just say, "oh, yes, I met him today, at the station. We talked about you being a murder suspect. It's no big deal."

 

Then she asks Dix if he really wants to go the party. She goes from being very enthusiastic about a beach party to "I don't want to go" in a matter of seconds. What changed her thinking?

 

I firmly believe Laurel's not telling Dix she was unfaithful to him represents a great deceit in her mind. And, guess what? She's right.

[CineMaven]

"TRUST & DESPERATION: IN A LONELY PLACE"

 

Battle-axes, Madams, "The Birds," musical sissyhood, truth, Corinthians, betrayal, demons, blame, lies, mis-trust, deceipt and many many screencaps...

 

This and much much more has made up the discussion of "IN A LONELY PLACE" (1950) starring Humphrey Bogart and Gloria Grahame in two performances that had to have been the highlight of 1950. This particular thread would be great to re-visit on a long railroad trip cross-country (No cellphones or loud conversations nearby).The writing and expression of opinion and courtliness makes this a great read.

 

But I do feel kind of sad reading Laurel getting tarred and feathered, and then plucked feather by feather until she's a hairless chicken, screencapped to support or condemn her position in the movie. I wish I could dispassionately defend her better. I can't, but others have come to her rescue. She needs to be rescued from Dix and some of you guys. Yeeesh! ( ;-) ).

 

What I'd like to do here is just offer some general thoughts of mine about "IN A LONELY PLACE" and the fine comments I've read for and against Dixon Steele and Laurel Gray.

 

* "IN A LONELY PLACE" is a GREAT title for a movie. It says a lot about a lot of things. And lonely is different from alone. Both Dix & Laurel seem like people who are alone and lonely, especially Dix. (And who hasn't even been lonely in a crowded room).

 

* SOME DETECTIVE YOU ARE! The cops (Lochner in particular) don't do a very good job of police detecting. They latch onto Dix for dear life. While it does make sense...he is the last person to see Mildred alive ("The dingo stole my bybeeee!!!") should insufficient emotion make one a prime suspect. But they didn't clear him fast enough. Evidence? DNA? Motive? The cops didn't do the leg work. They were lazy; just innuendo and suspicion and convenience. Brub was following orders...he didn't really believe Dix murdered Mildred.

 

HA! I think Mildred would be happy to know that she is part of this EPIC thread this film has engendered.

 

* SUSPICION: Yup, this is a movie about suspicion. I can't speak to each and every point I read in this wonderful ramble about "IN A LONELY PLACE." Lochner and Martha... but mostly Lochner was like damned Iago whispering in Laurel's ear. Martha out of concern... Lochner out of ego. (No, I don't think Laurel was Martha's meal ticket...but more on Martha in a moment). Laurel did try to defend her man as some screen caps exhibited. But those seeds of doubt were sewn. ("Shadow Of A Doubt" would be a good title too...if Hitch hadn't taken it years before). This movie shows what happens when suspicions go unanswered... and UNQUESTIONED. This is a movie about a relationship NOT working. Ray gives this to us as a thesis of examination. (After all, he changed the author's story and it also looks like he was going through something with Gloria in their personal life). I like when movies show us what doesn't work. Yes I want my happy endings, but I do enjoy movies showing what wrong decisions look like and the bad things happening. It all works out (sort of) for Joan Bennett in "The Reckless Moment" it just doesn't work out here for Dix & Laurel. We can learn from what doesn't work, as well as what does.

 

* THE MARTHA MOMENT: "Battle-axes" like Martha often get maligned in movies. They're not the pretty petite cutesy size 4's. Not crazy about the term (battle-axe) either. Yes, everyone's sexual orientation in the movie is firmly planted and unquestioned, no doubt. (Martha's married with a kid I believe). And the tension that I felt between the two is not a point of plot departure, but another layer underneath. (And I thought this was a great way to express that feminine bonding rather than the stooopid TIRED IMO convention of beauty parlor or manicure visit...spare me!) Martha's girth is the convention in movies when masseuses are shown. (She only missed the stereotypical "Swedish" accent). There's a moment...a closeness, but please no sexual anxiety or panic attacks from anyone, okay? Actually, I think Martha kind of serves as a Greek chorus for Laurel...a sort of voice in Laurel's head that we hear out loud and see. She wasn't barking commands, her voice was soft, soothing. I'm sure Martha's massaged many a Hollywood body. I'm sure she's seen battered and bruised bodies in her day. I think she wants to spare Laurel any harm from this Dix fella. As for being separated in another room, don't read too much into that separation. This is Laurel's time for her massage, and the movie convention of a guy being in the same room with a somewhat nude woman wasn't about to happen.

 

(Quickly, that brings to mind a small moment in "Fallen Angel" when Dana Andrews & Alice Faye are married and stay in a dinky hotel. Faye has showered and needs her trenchcoat to wear since they ran out of town without luggage. Andrews hands her the trenchcoat without so much as looking into the bathroom...ya know, just extending his arm. But they're married!!!! But it's the code).

 

* DESPERATION: Dix IS a schoolboy around Laurel 'cuz he does want her desperately. (Hmmm...that might just be the key word throughout all of Dix's actions: D E S P E R A T I O N). Desperation kind of fueled many of his actions. This does not make a girl feel safe & secure. He becomes desperate to keep her and Laurel becomes desperate to leave him.

 

* JUST TELL THE TRUTH: Yeah, right. Such a black and white thing. But in our human friendships and relationships it's kind of different. We definitely do things NOT to hurt someone's feelings or get them upset. If you want to be all ****, fine...Laurel LIED to Dix. She did not tell him THE TRUTH about being summoned down to Lochner's office. She did not tell him she was becoming frightened of him. Fine! Ya happy? That would be the letter of the law of the truth; but not the spirit of why she did not confide in him. Yeah yeah, lying by omission is still lying. But what sets things in motion (for some here) is the beach scene and being caught in a lie by Brub's big mouth wife. ("Oops, sorry. Mrs. Nicholai was merely telling the truth," T-Mave says sarcastically). But I believe Laurel kept that from him b'cuz she didn't want to upset him. Her other untruths were done out of fear. Should she have told Dix over a friendly drive or a friendly drink or a friendly piano bar tete-a-tete in a scene something like this:

 

"Babe, the cops hauled me downtown to question me more about you. They even told me you roughed up other dames. But I know you had good reason and I know you wouldn't do that to me. And I told that Lochner creep that I LOVE YOU."

 

I may be gilding the lily a little but no way Dix would have taken that news lightly. He might have stormed down to the police station and confronted them angrily. And with good reason: ("Either book me or lemme alone!") But just telling Dix the truth...I dunno folks. I think you're holding Laurel to a higher standard than you would yourself in real life. But look...if you're telling your friends and your wives and your husbands and your family and your lovers and your children the plain unvarnished truth, (Whew!) I hope that's working out for you: no hideously ugly ties for Father's Day, no crappy clay ashtrays in the living room, no rotten finger-paintings on the refrigerator, no dashed screenplays in the typewriter.

 

I wish we could all get together and watch this movie. Let's fly on down to Molo's house and watch his 90" inch flatscreen tv with some popcorn and Raisinettes and DVR remote control firmly in hand so we could occasionally stop and start the movie, discussing each point of Laurel & Dix's journey to an unhappy ending. I'd love to videotape the discussion. But alas...we can't.

 

This Message Board will have to do. And it's doing very nicely in discussing this most interesting movie. I think Humphrey Bogart and Gloria Grahame gave fantastic performances, walking on the razor thin tightrope of love and trust, of hope and desperation, of fear and desire. I think gloria Grahame's performance here is the jewel in the crown of her career and should have received an Oscar for this and not "The Bad and the Beautiful." As for their characters: I think Dix might have pursued his destruction. I think Laurel should have left sooner. (I felt her fear). And I think everyone made valid points.

 

I wish I could dispassionately defend her better. I can't.

 

P.S.

Might I suggest that you guyz, click here: http://www.noircast.net/ and look for "IN A LONELY PLACE" in that website. It's really a very interesting discussion Clute & Edwards have.

 

Thanxx for reading.

 

P.S. Just read your post FrankGrimes. You do have a point in that instance. But not the spirit of why she does what she does.

 

Edited by: CineMaven on Nov 11, 2009 11:53 AM

 

Edited by: CineMaven on Nov 11, 2009 12:05 PM - 'cuz I finally have to put an "Amen" to my words here.

[FrankGrimes]

As for being separated in another room, don't read too much into that separation. This is Laurel's time for her massage, and the movie convention of a guy being in the same room with a somewhat nude woman wasn't about to happen.

 

What I was referring to is how Laurel is separated from Dix. Would Martha tell Laurel all she was saying in front of Dix? Absolutely not. But with the wall between them, Martha can whisper all she wants to Laurel. This is how their relationship is getting destroyed. The birds are chirping and Laurel ends up listening to them.

 

I may be gilding the lily a little but no way Dix would have taken that news lightly. He might have stormed down to the police station and confronted them angrily. And with good reason: ("Either book me or lemme alone!") But just telling Dix the truth...I dunno folks. I think you're holding Laurel to a higher standard than you would yourself in real life. But look...if you're telling your friends and your wives and your husbands and your lovers and your children the plain unvarnished truth, (Whew!) I hope that's working out for you: no hideously ugly ties for Father's Day, no crappy clay ashtrays in the living room, no rotten finger-paintings on the refrigerator.

 

If my lover was a murder suspect and the cops asked me down to the station to talk to me about them, I would make damn sure I'd tell her all about it. It's not Dix's feelings that are at stake, it's his life. This is not about a tie or ashtray or finger-paintings. This is much more serious.

 

I want to know my woman is on my side... with the big things in love and life. If she isn't, our relationship won't survive. Trust and loyalty are paramount.

 

When Laurel defiantly says to Lochner, "I don't believe that," does she mean it? When she later whispers in Dix's ear, "I wouldn't want anyone but you," does she mean it? Was she frightened to death of Dix when she whispered those words in his ear? Are these lies? What is she up to? Where's the truth with Laurel? I need to know.

 

How do you take this scene?:

 

 

[JackFavell]

Maven (for you truly are),

 

Hooray for you. I really loved what you had to say, especially about Martha, and also about the conversation. I totally get it, and see your points clearly.

 

I feel very similar feelings. I think the film is about mistakes and failure and personalities and the underside of Hollywood and /or relationships. It's about all the things we have discussed. It's about the way you can love someone so completely even if it is bad for you. Just because you want it to happen so badly doesn't mean that it is going to work. It's about how little tiny things that a person does can add up to a whole lot of grief.

 

I can understand all the points that everyone has made. But the truth is somewhere in Nick Ray's mind. I think HE felt sorry for Dix, and made this story an apologia for Dix/himself. I don't think he succeeded. Personally, my feelings are that you can try all you want to to absolve Dix of his faults and his sins, but in the end you have a very flawed person at best. I wouldn't go near him with a ten foot pole. Certainly, Dix sees Laurel's police visit as a betrayal. And certainly Laurel sees Dix's beating of Joe College as a sign that he has violent feelings toward her. Maybe they are both wrong, or maybe they are both right or some combination of your own choosing. I think Laurel's biggest mistake was in allowing her attraction to Dix to go any further. I think she was attracted to him because he was exciting - and not in a good way. That shows me that Laurel is a flawed person as well. But then again, aren't we all?

 

Maybe this movie is actually about attraction and what makes us interested in someone. Is it the same thing as love? Is attraction enough to keep two people with their individual problems together? Is love? Is either enough to base a marriage on? Is marriage something that people should aspire to? Or should people come together without the control issues and the fears that marriage can generate? I don't know, but this is how I see the movie. You all have great points, but each person is going to go with their emotion - they are going to feel it from one viewpoint or another. I feel it to be an indictment of marriage.

 

Isn't it funny that we can all have such opposing viewpoints about the same film? How did that happen? Is it the sign of a great film? or is it because of Ray's incomplete or flawed vision?

[FrankGrimes]

Certainly, Dix sees Laurel's police visit as a betrayal. And certainly Laurel sees Dix's beating of Joe College as a sign that he has violent feelings toward her. Maybe they are both wrong, or maybe they are both right or some combination of your own choosing.

 

We agree! Yay! Well, sort of. Dix sees Laurel's not telling him about the visit as a betrayal.

 

Isn't it funny that we can all have such opposing viewpoints about the same film? How did that happen? Is it the sign of a great film? or is it because of Ray's incomplete or flawed vision?

 

Film noir! Grey! I love it!

[CineMaven]

What I was referring to is how Laurel is separated from Dix. Would Martha tell Laurel all she was saying in front of Dix? Absolutely not. But with the wall between them, Martha can whisper all she wants to Laurel. This is how their relationship is getting destroyed. The birds are chirping and Laurel ends up listening to them.

 

You?re right. Martha would not tell Laurel her misgivings about Dix in front of Dix. But I welcome the admonitions of Martha. Laurel can?t hear me yelling from my movie theatre seat saying: ?You?re in danger, girl!? Martha has heard bad things of Dix...she?s not very trusting of Dix...she thinks her friend/client is going to be hurt by Dix. You believe this chirping contributes to the erosion of Laurel and Dix?s relationship. You believe that ?the birds? helped peck away at the relationship from the outside, and that Laurel helped destroy the relationship from within. We?ve got to see someone from Laurel?s sphere try to pull her coattails. Coppers. HA! Who listens to cops. Laurel doesn?t have to listen and she doesn?t at first. But then she sees things that start to make her uncomfortable and question things. Should she have talked to Dix? In a perfect normal world...yes. I see what you and others are saying about her forthrightness.

 

But I?m just saying that I understand why she doesn?t feel it safe to talk to her hot-headed, knuckle-headed squirrel of a lover. Would you pass me some of those mashed potatoes, please?

 

?If my lover was a murder suspect and the cops asked me down to the station to talk to me about them, I would make damn sure I'd tell her all about it. It's not Dix's feelings that are at stake, it's his life. This is not about a tie or ashtray or finger-paintings. This is much more serious.?

 

All I can say is that I humanly understand why Laurel would hedge on telling Dix. There are some things beyond right and wrong.

 

I want to know my woman is on my side... with the big things in love and life. If she isn't, our relationship won't survive. Trust and loyalty are paramount.

 

Yes, trust and loyalty are, indeed, paramount. They are high on my list as qualities I possess and requisites I require. But I don?t think that anyone tells their lover the truth ALL the time, EVERY single time. I?m sure telling my lover ?the cops still suspect you babe,? would be very disquieting. Why bring it all up if the cops have not just flat out arrested Dix for murder; handcuffs...lawyers. You do things sometimes to NOT upset someone if you don?t absolutely have to. Frankly, I think Brub?s wife put Laurel in danger if not just a lover's spat.

 

When Laurel defiantly says to Lochner, "I don't believe that," does she mean it?

 

Yes.

 

When she later whispers in Dix's ear, "I wouldn't want anyone but you," does she mean it?

 

Yes.

 

Was she frightened to death of Dix when she whispered those words in his ear?

 

No.

 

Are these lies? What is she up to? Where's the truth with Laurel? I need to know.

 

Uh-oh. I feel like I have ten seconds to answer. See how it happens girls and I?m sitting hundreds of miles from him. Yikes!

 

How do you take this scene?

 

Alright, I?ll take your Rorschach test of the picture below at the piano bar. I see it two ways:

 

1. Oh crap! What are they doing still trying to tail us. They oughta leave us alone!! (It looks protective to me ?cuz she sees them first b?4 Dix).

 

2. Oh crap! This cop sees me here and he might bring up seeing me this afternoon at the station. Sheeeeeeeet! I should've told Dix. Oh boy, I'll catch hell tonite. (But I?m stretching here, Grimesy b?cuz I don?t believe it. I wanted to see what it would feel like to believe it. Nope, it doesn?t feel comfortable to me at all).

 

So I'm going with #1.

 

With much of "IN A LONELY PLACE? things can be looked at from both sides. That?s the beauty of it. Or the horror of it since we want to know with certainty what?s going on. The director knows what he?s trying to say...we can only surmise.

 

Would you tell me what YOU feel is going on in that scene Frank?

 

Doubt. It?s such a deadly thing; eating and corroding...and working so well.

[CineMaven]

Maven? I'm no Maven. I'm just a girl who likes movies. I'm just a girl who likes to like movies. We all watch movies through the filter of our lives I guess. I really try to go by what I see put up on the screen and not read anything mystical into things. Different people see different things in a film. It could be as you said: "...or is it because of Ray's incomplete or flawed vision?"

 

I'm no maven. I feel less and less Maven-ish when I come on these boards. It's a big big world out there, with many points of view.

 

I just don't know how people can be so wrong...that's all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come on, the last line was a joke! Now Jackaaaaay, hit me with a brunette picture of Margaret Lindsay for my Margaret Lindsay thread in "Your Favorites." Thanx!

 

Edited by: CineMaven on Nov 11, 2009 2:42 PM b'cuz I want to add a reminder to see Robert Ryan today at 4:45pm in "Act of Violence" and at 6:30pm at "Bad Day of Black Rock."

[FrankGrimes]

You?re right. Martha would not tell Laurel her misgivings about Dix in front of Dix. But I welcome the admonitions of Martha. Laurel can?t hear me yelling from my movie theatre seat saying: ?You?re in danger, girl!?

 

Why is Laurel in danger?

 

You believe this chirping contributes to the erosion of Laurel and Dix?s relationship. You believe that ?the birds? helped peck away at the relationship from the outside, and that Laurel helped destroy the relationship from within.

 

Precisely.

 

She wasn't barking commands, her voice was soft, soothing.

 

Martha is a masseuse, a manipulator. She is talking in soft, soothing tones in an effort to manipulate Laurel. She is the devil, whispering in her ear. This is why she calls her, "angel." The reason she is bigger is to make her out to be a physical threat to Laurel, for she is domineering.

 

Miss G's comments and caps about Nicolai, Lochner, and Martha being shown ABOVE Laurel as a form of power and control is something I completely agree with.

 

But I?m just saying that I understand why she doesn?t feel it safe to talk to her hot-headed, knuckle-headed squirrel of a lover. Would you pass me some of those mashed potatoes, please?

 

That made me laugh!

 

You do things sometimes to NOT upset someone if you don?t absolutely have to.

 

Yes, but some things are very, very important to the one you love. Why would Laurel feel bad about her lie and look to cover it up if she DIDN'T know it was bad? This idea of it being "no big deal" doesn't fit how Laurel is reacting or how the Nicolai's react. It IS a big deal... and she knows it. So why is it?

 

Frankly, I think Brub?s wife put Laurel in danger if not just a lover's spat.

 

I believe Laurel placed Sylvia in a spot by including her in her lie. Without the lie, there's no problem. EVERYTHING starts with the lie, the unfaithfulness.

 

When Laurel defiantly says to Lochner, "I don't believe that," does she mean it?

 

Yes.

 

So you are saying she doesn't believe what she had been told about Dix being a maniac.

 

When she later whispers in Dix's ear, "I wouldn't want anyone but you," does she mean it?

 

Yes.

 

So you are saying she does love him and she doesn't wish to be with anyone else, which means she feels safe being with him.

 

Was she frightened to death of Dix when she whispered those words in his ear?

 

No.

 

All right. So we have now established Laurel wasn't afraid of Dix at this point. So why doesn't she tell him about her going to the police station? She's not afraid he'll hit her. Are you saying she just doesn't want to see him get upset? She hasn't seen him get angry ONCE. All she has seen is a very happy, loving, caring man. That's all she knows. Are you saying she just doesn't want to see him ever get upset?

 

My point is that she should have been honest about something that important to Dix. He needs to know. I completely understand why he loses it. She's supposed to be a "good guy."

 

Uh-oh. I feel like I have ten seconds to answer. See how it happens girls and I?m sitting hundreds of miles from him. Yikes!

 

You already know I'm a maniac. Give me your neck!

 

2. Oh crap! This cop sees me here and he might bring up seeing me this afternoon at the station. Sheeeeeeeet! I should've told Dix. Oh boy, I'll catch hell tonite. (But I?m stretching here, Grimesy b?cuz I don?t believe it. I wanted to see what it would feel like to believe it. Nope, it doesn?t feel comfortable to me at all).

 

That's the one I believe is true. Laurel is hiding and she's worried she's going to be found out. Eventually... she is found out.

 

If Laurel had told Dix from the start about her being at the station, she would have been on HIS side. It would have been the loyal thing to do. She wouldn't need to lie, hide, and avoid then. Remember the transition, we go from her saying she wouldn't trade her place with kings to her visit to the station.

[CineMaven]

"One of these days one of you boys is going to start one of these scenes differently. One of us girls is going to drop dead from surprise." - "___________"

 

I'm stunned. I don't know if I can answer your questions. I feel this movie on an emotional level. Your cold clinical eye may be correct, but Lord help the girl who slips with you.