Jump to content
 
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread


Recommended Posts

Howdy, Quiet Gal -- *Oh, yeah.. she is finding her "funny bone" lately for sure. Her latest new "interest" is joke book humor.. and making up her OWN jokes too. Way cute.*

 

*Here is my fave new joke from her (it is one she got from a book she checked out earlier this summer.)*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* How do you stop a run away coffee pot??*

 

She's got me stumped!

 

*This is true too.. and sometimes can be very life changing (sometime good, sometimes bad) when we finally learn there is a whole "side" to ourselves we never realized people see in us before.*

 

Such as snippy. :P

 

 

*I think it is always interesting to get to know others and maybe get some insight (in a friendly.. non-threatenting way) as to what makes them "tick". I am not saying I think it is ok to "mess with people's minds" or nose into their personal thoughts and attitudes, etc.. but it is fun to exchange opinions and ideas and such.. and the conversation starters you come up w/ sometimes are good for that.. other times.. they are just good for "slinging mud" ha.. (which I also enjoy.. so long as it is all very non-hostile and everyone is respectful.. oh and also.. so long as YOU get stuck w/ the hatpin somewhere along the line) :P*

 

 

Me?! What did I do? I'm sweet and innocent!

 

 

*That's it exactly.. and the reason I can say this is I know it to be the case for myself.. for all my "blabbage" ha.. I really DO try to put a lot of thought into "most" all the things I say.. especially when we are getting down into the mud.. ha.. but also other times too.. when we are just "blabbing". It makes me think even harder when I am trying to figure out the "whys" to one of the questions I am answering abuot a topic you (or someone else) has raised on here. I need that from time to time.. ha.. otherwise I might just spend all my time posting little tidbits about what the kidling has done or said.. or her latest JOKE.(Ha.) and I know that for some.. a little of that likely goes a long way.. but then.. probably so does a little of my "blabbage" on most any subject.. so having said THAT.. you folks are mighty nice people to put up w/ me for so long.*

 

 

I really like that you do put some real thought into what's being discussed. It's refreshing. You score major points with me because of it, too. That's not a good thing for you, though. :D

 

 

*I think you would be like me.. it probably would all depend on the "Masterpiece" they are showing at the time.. ha.*

 

 

Are you kidding?!

 

 

*USUALLY I roll my eyes at all that "game playing" she did and all the "reverse snobbery" even. (she assumed HE would not want anything to do with her.. once he found out she wasn't as good as the upper crust girls.. just because HE was upper crust.. that to me is "reverse" discrimination..*

 

 

Excellent point. And I plead guilty to this. I often jump to the conclusion that others will think horrible of me. But there's something good about this, too. When someone doesn't do what you expect them to do, you've got something.

 

 

*But I just felt so BAD for her.. It is just so aggravating and sad all at the same time. She wanted SO much to be anyone else but herself.. because thanks to her FAMILY (especially her mom) there was NOTHING she saw about herself or her life that was worthing showing to others.. very sad.*

 

 

*Oh me.. no wonder she was so messed up in the head (about how to just be herself) her mom spent all her time telling her that she should be unhappy because she ought to have better.. but didn't because her "life" just didn't measure up... (not that SHE was at fault for that.. but still) and her dad was so busy just trying to put up w/ the mom.. he never saw his daughter for who SHE really was as well either.*

 

 

That's superb, Ma Stone. You nailed it. Alice's mom (Ann Shoemaker) really is the problem. Her constant harping on Alice needing to keep up with the other girls to "compete for the boys" is what's creating this entire mess. That's a scary seed to plant. And I do find girls to be very insecure, much more than boys. They are constantly worrying about how they appear to everyone.

 

 

*(and then the BROTHER.. oh me.. what a doofball HE was) ugh.*

 

 

I liked him! He was at least himself.

 

 

*(Mini- SPOILER alert)*

*So yeah.. there was a lot of non-likeable stuff in that movie.. but here is where my "mush" factor goes on overload.. ha.. because wasn't that Fred McM quite a GUY!! He looked past ALL that "stuff" she and her mother and even OTHERS were trying to force him to "see"..and saw the real her.. and THAT is what makes that whole agonzing story worth sitting through (painful though it was.. sigh) All that agony is WORTH it just to get to that conversation they have on the porch at the end.. what a relief. ha.*

 

 

Wow! Look at you! You're getting mushy! I can see you going for a guy who likes a gal for who she is. I did like Arthur's (Fred MacMurray) line about the porch being where they belonged. I like that kind of "old-fashioned love." It's my kind of love.

 

 

*Anyway.. I am sorry you could not rate it higher. but I am not surprised either. It really is a hard movie to like in a lot of respects*

 

 

It's too close to Jane Austen for my tastes!

 

 

*I was actually referring to The Iron Horse.. you rated it about where I thought you would on that one too. (gee. I really AM getting better at this.. ha.. how did THAT happen??) :-)*

 

 

*Go ahead.. Peggy.. guess where I would rate it.. (or at least how I would rate it) I may suprise you..*

 

 

The way you phrase that makes me believe you don't like it too much. But, to be honest, I really wouldn't know which way you would lean with *The Iron Horse*. It's a film that I'd have a hard time guessing who would really love it, actually.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy Mr. Grey...

 

The kidling asks... How do you stop a run away coffee pot??*

 

The Grey Guy says.. She's got me stumped!

 

Drum roll please.......... With COFFEE BREAKS (of course!) :D

 

Ha.. what can I say.. she is a budding "Shecky Green" ha. I just hope she remembers her dear old MOM when she hits the big time and starts doing stand up on the Leno show.. ha.

 

Are you kidding?!

 

No... I actually am not. ha. They are NOT the "Masterpiece" of yesteryear.. you might be surprised at some of their programming in recent years. Not all of it (at least from what I have seen in recent months especially) is so "Austen-tatious" as it used to be.. ha

 

Alice's mom (Ann Shoemaker) really is the problem. Her constant harping on Alice needing to keep up with the other girls to "compete for the boys" is what's creating this entire mess. That's a scary seed to plant.

 

I think she sees her husband as a failure.. and wants to spare Alice the same "misery" she has "endured" which to me is just awful. But to be honest.. Miss G did bring up a good point that she was not entirely wrong.. because to me.. the dad was not a failure.. but he was VERY willing to just let life go by and not really take his family's needs into consideration as he was doing it. Still.. I don't think he failed them or let them down.. he just did not really do much to lift them UP either.. he struck me pretty much as a guy who wanted to just enjoy his job.. then come home.. have a peaceful supper and read his paper.. and not really be bothered with the "details" of what was happening at home.. so long as everything stayed peaceful. That is no way to lead and provide for your family. So they were sort of both at fault in one way or another.

 

 

He was at least himself

 

He was too MUCH himself.. because he was pretty much what his parents had made him as well.. he was selfish.. and did not really (for the most part) worry about what anyone wanted or needed but himself. (did you see the way the mom catered to him.. and pretty much let him have or do or say what he wanted.. except for taking Alice to the party.. he more or less had free reign. (although I will say there is one part where he is obviously sensitive to the hurt Alice is feeling and tried to cheer her up. even a little bit.. but moments like that for him are few and far between)

 

It's too close to Jane Austen for my tastes!

 

And I would have NEVER put that together until you said it. but I DO see a comparison to many of her stories.. all about being "trapped" in one's social station.. and having to live through the pain of trying to figure out how to either stay happy there.. or break out.. and meanwhile you have a whole cast of characters telling you how to do it.. or not do it as you go along.. good catch. ha. (no WONDER you were not so fond of it..ha)

 

 

The way you phrase that makes me believe you don't like it too much. But, to be honest, I really wouldn't know which way you would lean with *The Iron Horse*. It's a film that I'd have a hard time guessing who would really love it, actually.

 

To be honest.. there were parts of that movie I liked a LOT.. but other parts I was just not really all that huge on. I think overall I liked it well enough but I have to confess.. it was NOT what I was hoping for altogether.. at least in terms of "like-ability"

 

I think the biggest problem I had was that I had just WAITED for so many years to see it.. it had too LONG of a build up, etc. and that does not always work out once you actually get to see it for yourself. (sometimes it does.. but not always) And I don't think ANYONE ever mis-represented it to me.. I just more or less had it so built up in my mind as being a film I was going to really like a LOT.. and then I only liked it so-so.. (over all) so I felt a bit let down.

 

But I am not putting any of the fault for that on Ford. or even the movie itself.. because I do confess.. PARTS of this film.. (and I am maybe even referring to the WAY it was filmed) are breathtaking.. and everything I had hoped for and expected. But overall I just don't rate it as high as I had hoped I would.. not sure if I can even put a finger on why.. but that is how it came across.

 

Maybe if I watch again.. I will see it in a better light.. now that the "shiny" is off of it and I can see it more for what it is.. rather than what I was EXPECTING it to be. (does that make sense??)

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

ro, not to beat a dead "horse" (ha) but *the iron horse* is rather on the "dry" side for me, too. It's main draw is the details of a period in history that the books usually only assign a footnote to (namely the immigrants' hard work and contributions) and the way Ford pulls many different threads together by the end. i think critics have made it seem more important because of its place in the director's career: it put him on the map as a serious filmaker, and not just a good studio workman. that's not really enough to satisfy me or i imagine most moviegoers...though I did see this movie in the theater at Lincoln Center and i did enjoy it more that way.

 

*3 bad men* is much more enjoyable and richly rewarding in an emotional and entertainment sense, but critics seldom rate it as highly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel the same way about *The Iron Horse*. It's beautiful, well done, with epic scale and nice characters. But it is not as full emotionally or character wise as I would have liked it to be, or what I have come to expect from Ford. I guess I need to go back and watch it over again as well, maybe there is more in there on second look.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hiya, Piecemaker -- *Drum roll please.......... With COFFEE BREAKS (of course!) :D*

 

Very good! I like that one!

 

 

*No... I actually am not. ha. They are NOT the "Masterpiece" of yesteryear.. you might be surprised at some of their programming in recent years. Not all of it (at least from what I have seen in recent months especially) is so "Austen-tatious" as it used to be.. ha*

 

I'm not that crazy about theater. I sorely lack culture.

 

 

*I think she sees her husband as a failure.. and wants to spare Alice the same "misery" she has "endured" which to me is just awful.*

 

 

She surely does view him as a failure, and her only judge of that is that they're not as rich as the rest. So, in other words, she's judging the value of her man (and people) by money. That's a rotten woman.

 

 

*But to be honest.. Miss G did bring up a good point that she was not entirely wrong.. because to me.. the dad was not a failure.. but he was VERY willing to just let life go by and not really take his family's needs into consideration as he was doing it. Still.. I don't think he failed them or let them down.. he just did not really do much to lift them UP either.. he struck me pretty much as a guy who wanted to just enjoy his job.. then come home.. have a peaceful supper and read his paper.. and not really be bothered with the "details" of what was happening at home.. so long as everything stayed peaceful. That is no way to lead and provide for your family. So they were sort of both at fault in one way or another.*

 

 

I view that as the typical man from that era. Men in those days worked and then came home to relax. The woman served them in the home. The woman also did the parenting unless a voice needed to be raised. Most every guy from that time found a job and worked it for the rest of their life. They weren't thinking about striking it rich. They just wanted a steady income to support their family. So Mr. Adams' biggest crime is that he's a regular ol' "Joe."

 

 

*He was too MUCH himself.. because he was pretty much what his parents had made him as well.. he was selfish.. and did not really (for the most part) worry about what anyone wanted or needed but himself. (did you see the way the mom catered to him.. and pretty much let him have or do or say what he wanted.. except for taking Alice to the party.. he more or less had free reign. (although I will say there is one part where he is obviously sensitive to the hurt Alice is feeling and tried to cheer her up. even a little bit.. but moments like that for him are few and far between)*

 

 

I'd say this is very typical of the time, too. Boys are given more room while girls are tied more to the family and house. I just liked that he didn't give a darn about the society stuff. He'd rather shoot dice with the help. He even greeted the musicians as friends. He didn't view himself as some "better-than-you" snob. And that goes for money, social standing, or skin color. I liked him.

 

 

I can't remember but didn't he get in trouble for trying to help a buddy out? I'm sure it was a get-rich-quick scheme, though.

 

 

*And I would have NEVER put that together until you said it. but I DO see a comparison to many of her stories.. all about being "trapped" in one's social station.. and having to live through the pain of trying to figure out how to either stay happy there.. or break out.. and meanwhile you have a whole cast of characters telling you how to do it.. or not do it as you go along.. good catch. ha. (no WONDER you were not so fond of it..ha)*

 

 

 

The two big events in the film are a social (dance) and a dinner party. That's not something I look forward to attending or watching! The ending to the film is where I could find something I liked. That's where some good emotion shows up and a little testosterone. Before that I'm stuck in a "Pride and Prejudice" world.

 

 

*To be honest.. there were parts of that movie I liked a LOT.. but other parts I was just not really all that huge on. I think overall I liked it well enough but I have to confess.. it was NOT what I was hoping for altogether.. at least in terms of "like-ability"*

 

 

 

Like I said, *The Iron Horse* is a film where I find it hard to say who would love it. The lead's story isn't that strong. It's J. Farrell MacDonald who ends up being the most interesting.

 

 

The best moment in the film for me happened very early on. The scene I speak of is with Davy and his father. After that, everything is rather routine. Still, I found it enjoyable enough.

 

 

*Maybe if I watch again.. I will see it in a better light.. now that the "shiny" is off of it and I can see it more for what it is.. rather than what I was EXPECTING it to be. (does that make sense??)*

 

 

 

I think you'd come away with the same feeling. There isn't one thing to really latch onto.

Link to post
Share on other sites
*Hiya, Mrs. Cooper* *-- Is this really you?! It can't be!*

Grabs hold of the lapel on her jacket and attempts her best Jimmy Durante impression: IIIIIIn poi-sin! :)

*Oh, no! I must run to the Coop bomb shelter! Sanctuary!*

...You're a turkey, Frank. You know that? :P
That thread was pure awesomeness to its core; you're just jealous ;)




*Wait a minute! I knew it! Butterscotch offed the real Mrs. Cooper!*

No, she just happens to have acceptional taste when it comes to...well, everything! You should know that Frankie! Hehehe :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

KIMMY PINKINEATER!!!

 

Mona Risa! :D

 

How are you, twinkletoes?

 

Do I really look that mean? :D :D :D

 

No, not at all. The hue of red in your eyes compliments the color of your medusa-style hair! And the smoke steaming from your ears gives off an absolutely angelic effect! :D

Only teasing. I love yew :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy Grey Dude.. (and Miss G and Jackie too!)

 

I'm not that crazy about theater. I sorely lack culture

 

See I think you are operating under a misconception based on notions you may have about MT that are not really true (at least not anymore) I used to be the same way. But there is not so much "Theater" to it as just some very fine productions of some really good stories. They did a MARVELOUS job on several of the Dickens tales (some that I bet you would have even liked) and they did some Sherlock Holmes and Agatha Christie too.. but they also did The 39 Steps.. and they have done some Kipling.. and even some more modern detective stories (especially lately) as well.(but I can't comment on them much as I have not seen them)

 

But I guess I am saying that MT is not all" stuffed shirt and chamber maid" tales the way it may come off (judging soley by the name) ha. You just have to look at what they are showing on a case by case basis. You MIGHT be more surprised than you realize.

 

(But alas I won't do a hard sell on you..ha. I am not even sold out myself.. because again.. I only watch on a pick and choose basis myself. But I doubt you will try that even.. ha..... because you are a stick in the mud.. this is like one of those."I don't want to eat my green veggie" moments for you.. you don't LIKE them.. because you won't TRY them, Mr. Saurkraut guy) ha. Ok.. that was the "mom' coming out in me. ha. Sorry to sound so mean... ok..no I am not sorry.. it was for you own good.. HA!)

 

That's a rotten woman.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think she felt the same way about her OWN life.. she never got what she thought SHE should have had in life.. and she didn't want her daughter to suffer the same fate. She views marriage a LOT like the women in (ha.. oh you and your comparisons.. but they really do apply) the mother in P&P... it is not about finding a man you love.. it is about finding a "successful" man to marry. Then YOU are a success yourself. Bah.. But having said that.. I do think she did love Alice.. and I also think (though it was VERY hard to see.. she loved her husband too.. somewhere in the midst of all that selfishness.. she did care for him. But OH me.. it was hard to see it.

 

Mr. Adams' biggest crime is that he's a regular ol' "Joe

 

No.. it was worse than that. He just did not take it upon himself to be the head of his house. He was the breadwinner.. but he only did what he needed to get by.. and then let the mother more or less rule.. so long as life went by smoothly for him. He was (in that way) being as selfish as she was.

 

I liked that everyone else in the community (especially his boss) considered him a "good man" and he likely really was. He was just too "complacent" and willing to take as little initiative with his family as he needed to.. that is really all I have against him. He just sat back so long.. he didn't know HOW to be a good "head of the house" anymore. (if ever) When he finally did get to the point where he'd had "enough" of the henpecking and such.. it stirred him to move and "take charge" alright.. but he made a really bad choice about the way he moved.. and how he did it. And it all blew up in his face.

 

Boys are given more room while girls are tied more to the family and house

 

That was a pretty common practice then for sure. I see that in my own family's history.. with some of my relatives and stories they have told about a few of my uncles (great uncles) versus the stories that get told about my Grandma and my aunts.. very different perspective on how folks were expected to behave back then (and what was considered "acceptable") for sure.

 

I just liked that he didn't give a darn about the society stuff. He'd rather shoot dice with the help. He even greeted the musicians as friends. He didn't view himself as some "better-than-you" snob. And that goes for money, social standing, or skin color. I liked him

 

See.. I did not see him that way at all. He wasn't some sort of "snob" you are right.. but he was also very much just out looking for a good time. He hung out with that "help" but that wasn't because he didn't care about their social standing.. he was just looking for a good time.. and shooting dice was his kind of fun. It wasn't about flying in the face of "proper society".. it was just about what sort of good time can I have for myself.

 

And yes.. he did take money from Mr. Lamb for a buddy (because his dad would not give him any) but again.. I imagine it was for some "get rich quick" scheme gone bad.. or to pay gambling debts.. or some other deal gone awry.. I can't remember.. and I imagine it was as much to help himself.. as it was to help the buddy.. (but I might have that part wrong) Anyway.. he was not necessarily a BAD guy.. I just did not see much to like about him in general.

 

RE: The IRON HORSE:

 

Mr. Grey Says:

 

The lead's story isn't that strong. It's J. Farrell MacDonald who ends up being the most interesting. The best moment in the film for me happened very early on. The scene I speak of is with Davy and his father. After that, everything is rather routine. Still, I found it enjoyable enough

 

Jackie adds:

 

I feel the same way about The Iron Horse. It's beautiful, well done, with epic scale and nice characters. But it is not as full emotionally or character wise as I would have liked it to be, or what I have come to expect from Ford. I guess I need to go back and watch it over again as well, maybe there is more in there on second look

 

And Miss G also states: It's main draw is the details of a period in history that the books usually only assign a footnote to (namely the immigrants' hard work and contributions) and the way Ford pulls many different threads together by the end. i think critics have made it seem more important because of its place in the director's career: it put him on the map as a serious filmaker, and not just a good studio workman. that's not really enough to satisfy me or i imagine most moviegoers...though I did see this movie in the theater at Lincoln Center and i did enjoy it more that way.

 

*3 bad men *is much more enjoyable and richly rewarding in an emotional and entertainment sense, but critics seldom rate it as highly.

 

You are all three hitting on pretty much everything I could say about this film myself. I think in some ways it was TWO films.. one (the part I really wish had been played up more) was the "documentary" feel (becaues that was the part that worked for me the best) I loved the telling of the whole railroad history.. and watching the work and the side details too (about hunting the buffalo.. etc, etc) I really like the end... a lot.

 

But what was not so strong.. was the "main" story.. w/ Davy.. and the girl..(sorry, I am old and I can't remember her name. ha) I thought the film STARTED well.. w/ them as kids.. and then Mr Grey had it right.. the whole bit w/ the boy and his dad.. and what happened as they were setting out.. very moving.. but then it got "sidetracked" ha. no pun intended. I just think there were TOO many stories getting crammed together after that.

 

Though I do confess some of the characters were a lot of fun (Mr. Grey.. i loved the old guys.. in a lot of ways they were more "3 stooges" than 3 Musketeers. ha.) And I saw a lot of the "future" for many other Ford films in the way he focused in a lot of the "faces" of folks on the sideline. I LIKE how he brings aspects (even histories) to the background characters you don't even know just by taking a moment to look someone in the face.. You get to see their personalities.. in a quick 2 or 3 second shot.. you know who they are and what they are like.. just by the way they look. I have always liked how he can do that.

 

As for the main story.. there were the standard "stories" there.. the good guys were GOOD and the bad guy(s) were very rotten.. etc.. there was even a level of "conflict" to the romance (though to me.. that was really kind of ridiculous too.. she had NO clue, did she.. about what was going on.. duh)

 

But ultimately, when it all was put together, it just fell a little flatter for me than I would have liked (and Yes.. Miss G.. I think that is because I DID have my thoughts for how GREAT the story is in 3Bad Men as a comparison.. and I was HOPING to find that spark in this story and the main characters, etc.. but it just was not there the way I wanted it to be..

 

Alas..

 

 

 

 

 

 

But having said all that.. I think it IS a good film in it's own right. There is a lot that is right (in the way it was made and in the side characters and stories) that makes it worth a second look. (at least to me.. so Jackie.. I am with you) I do want to try it again sometime.. and see if I can pull more love for it out of what I did like.. if only to give it a fairer shake.. and not let my pre-conceived thoughts of what I thought it WAS going to be like cloud how I watch it this time.

 

(Oh good gravy.. somehow.. my post was all whacky... I went in and changed it to "plain text.... hope this helps.. doofy message board.. ha. )

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Aug 2, 2011 12:29 PM

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Aug 2, 2011 12:43 PM

Link to post
Share on other sites

*Jack Carson and Eugene Pallette were funny. I did laugh at them. I couldn't get into Henry Fonda and I'm such a Fonda fan, too. The film was a mix of comedy and drama and I felt it wasn't a pleasing mix.*

 

I can't disagree. I just thought the whole egghead angle would be up your alley.

 

*When was the last time a movie hit your top 100? My goodness.*

 

 

*The most recent are:*

 

 

*84. Sidewalks of London*

*87. Murder by Contract*

*55. The Naked Kiss*

*100. Secret Beyond the Door...*

*88. Reign of Terror*

*34. Kiss Me Deadly*

*90. Devil's Doorway*

 

 

Five out of seven are noirs! Two kisses, two doors.

 

 

*Gee, I better watch it again, soon. I remember the ending being very sad but I'm fuzzy on the details.*

 

 

*It's on TCM this Sunday at 10:45 AM.*

 

 

Thanks. I hope I'll be awake for it.

 

*I liked most of the performances and the tough message. I thought Eleanor Parker was great. She looked good, too. I really liked Agnes Moorehead, Betty Garde, and Ellen Corby. Hope Emerson was exceptional, of course. But in terms of a story, it's just not one I could grab onto.*

 

 

The story was the problem? Why? I thought it was just that it was an all-female picture that bothered you.

 

 

*I agree about Stone, I do not agree about her Mom though I do sympathize with some of her complaints.*

*You would be all over your husband! "Why don't you make some real money?!"*

 

 

I'm with Ro on this. The husband was a bit of a lay about. His whining got on my nerves. The mother was wrong at the bottom of it all because as you say, all her focus was on material things. But I don't see the father as a "regular Joe". Most "regular Joes" worked a lot harder than he did and had a little more self-respect. You take pride in your family and your home, not let it fall down around your ears like he did.

 

By the way, I liked the brother, too. He was hilarious the way he kept making fun of his sister's airs.

 

 

*Ain't that the truth. What I laughed at the most was when Rock was playing dumb about not being around women. And I loved his suit.*

 

 

By the time he'd made this movie, Hudson really had learned comic timing. He's very funny and I agree he's very funny in *Send Me No Flowers*, too. You should watch it, Hudson's hypochonriac is hilarious. "Doc...I have a pain every time I press here." "Then don't press there." Ha!

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Aug 2, 2011 8:31 PM

Link to post
Share on other sites

I will just round it out by saying I agree about the dad, he was a bit of a weakling, not really taking part in his own family life. I agree with Ro about the son, and I agree with Miss G about the mother.

 

However, I think maybe you and I, Frank, can agree that the family members, with all their faults, really did care about one another in the end, and came together to help each other. This is what I like in the story the best. They rise up frm the ashes of their personal disaster and learn something.... they take their medicine without squawking.

 

I see how you can think it's a lot like *Pride and Prejudice*, but I see it as totally different - a family story , the type you usually like - how the family learns about itself - each of them get a good look in the mirror, and they see that

 

1. they have each been drastically wrong, to the point of delusion or destruction

 

and

 

2. they aren't all that bad after all. Once they see what they did wrong, they each attempt to correct the mistakes they have made.

 

it is a tough movie for me to watch, with a lot of realism that hits close to home... but I love that when push comes to shove, Alice steps up in a gallant way, and makes things right. All the affect drops away. She's not a bad person, just a deluded one.

 

And I personally think NO one could have played Alice except Katherine Hepburn - it was a brave choice to play her the way she did, because Alice is hard to like.... As an actress, it's always tempting to want to be seen in the best possible light. Hepburn is brutal, she shows all Alice's faults spectacularly well. without flinching. But it works opposite than you would think. Because of Hepburn's (and Steven's) clarity and harsh portrayal, Alice is also a really poignant character to me, very sad and lonely. It's one of my favorite of Kate's performances, she doesn't pull any punches.

 

And by the way, just to make it all the more bittersweet, in the book Fred MacMurray doesn't come back.

 

I don't think I could take that ending.

Link to post
Share on other sites

*Alice Adams Spoilage*:

 

in the book Fred MacMurray doesn't come back

 

NO way.. really????????????????????????????? That's just WRONG.. ha. (who do these writers think they ARE anyway, ha) The fact that he not only "comes back" but never even leaves.. THAT is what makes it SO perfect out there on the porch at the end. He sees EVERYTHING he maybe even only "sort of" saw or maybe even guesssed about who and what the Adams' were all like. And yet.. he loves Alice. And he sees more in her than she (or any of her family even) ever did. Take that away.. and this is just a tragic story gone wrong all the way around.. blech.

 

I wanted to thank you for bringing Alice back in the chat a bit too, little missy. Because I got so focused on the mom and dad and brother I forgot to say ALL the things you did about her.

 

it was a brave choice to play her the way she did, because Alice is hard to like.... As an actress, it's always tempting to want to be seen in the best possible light. Hepburn is brutal, she shows all Alice's faults spectacularly well. without flinching. But it works opposite than you would think. Because of Hepburn's (and Steven's) clarity and harsh portrayal, Alice is also a really poignant character to me, very sad and lonely. It's one of my favorite of Kate's performances, she doesn't pull any punches.

 

That's perfectly said. I just can't even begin to tell you how sad I feel for her and how often I shake my head at her time and time again throughout the movie. I wonder if we are supposed to feel sorry for her because (like the mother thinks) her life really DOESN'T measure up to all the society folks.. and she knows it.. so she has to work harder to be liked. OR if (and this is how I feel about it) we are supposed to feel sorry for her because we want better for her than even SHE wants for herself. We want her to see how GOOD a person she really is.. and how beautiful she is (for loving her family despite all their flaws) and we want her to not WANT the things she can't have quite so much.. but look for ways to be happy with the things she DOES have instead.

 

I don't know.

 

But I will say that I think THIS is what Fred MacM sees.. and wishes for her.. and that is why he stays with her.. despite everyone (including Alice) giving him so many many reasons not to.

 

Alice always reminds me of that (awful yet beautiful) song.. At 17. It is a HARD thing to want things for yourself that you see others get so easily.. and know y ou can't have them because you don't "fit in", And I think most people (if they are honest) go through that "awkward" stage at SOME point in their life. But it is really hard to do it when you are at the age when so many "futures" seem to be turning out bright for everyone else but you. (17)

 

Ok.. maybe I am going to far with this.. but that is always what gives me the greatest sympathy for her. (and breaks my heart for her all at the same time) Poor girl.

 

(REALLY???????? He doesn't come BACK?????????? The NERVE!!) :D

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Aug 2, 2011 10:10 PM

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good evening, Burnt Toastmaker -- *(But alas I won't do a hard sell on you..ha. I am not even sold out myself.. because again.. I only watch on a pick and choose basis myself. But I doubt you will try that even.. ha..... because you are a stick in the mud.. this is like one of those."I don't want to eat my green veggie" moments for you.. you don't LIKE them.. because you won't TRY them, Mr. Saurkraut guy) ha. Ok.. that was the "mom' coming out in me. ha. Sorry to sound so mean... ok..no I am not sorry.. it was for you own good.. HA!)*

 

But I'm watching all kinds of movies! I'm not interested in watching television shows, though.

 

*I think she felt the same way about her OWN life.. she never got what she thought SHE should have had in life.. and she didn't want her daughter to suffer the same fate.*

 

 

Such suffering!

 

 

*She views marriage a LOT like the women in (ha.. oh you and your comparisons.. but they really do apply) the mother in P&P... it is not about finding a man you love.. it is about finding a "successful" man to marry. Then YOU are a success yourself. Bah.*

 

 

I completely agree. But it seems like she didn't marry for those reasons. She just seems to be caught up in wanting to be something "important." I'm like the brother: the heck with that.

 

 

*But having said that.. I do think she did love Alice.. and I also think (though it was VERY hard to see.. she loved her husband too.. somewhere in the midst of all that selfishness.. she did care for him. But OH me.. it was hard to see it.*

 

 

Oh, I think she loved her husband and her children. She just let the other stuff overtake that love. She's just as weak as her husband, but heck if she could see it. She's blind to herself.

 

 

*No.. it was worse than that. He just did not take it upon himself to be the head of his house. He was the breadwinner.. but he only did what he needed to get by.. and then let the mother more or less rule.. so long as life went by smoothly for him. He was (in that way) being as selfish as she was.*

 

 

 

You do make a good point. He was very weak. He chose to hide from his wife and cover his ears to her foolish demands. He should have shown more of a backbone and told her to knock it off. But he wasn't that kind of guy. Some of us guys don't like to play the "bad guy."

 

 

I had no problem with him being happy with his job and where he was in life. They seemed to be doing fine. I don't buy into his wife's reasons for his being a failure. They are way off. So many people undervalue contentment. It would be much different if the family was struggling to make it. But they weren't. It was more about moving from middle class to upper class. Blah.

 

 

*I liked that everyone else in the community (especially his boss) considered him a "good man" and he likely really was. He was just too "complacent" and willing to take as little initiative with his family as he needed to.. that is really all I have against him. He just sat back so long.. he didn't know HOW to be a good "head of the house" anymore. (if ever) When he finally did get to the point where he'd had "enough" of the henpecking and such.. it stirred him to move and "take charge" alright.. but he made a really bad choice about the way he moved.. and how he did it. And it all blew up in his face.*

 

 

He was out of his element. You don't marry a career woman and expect her to play house for you, if you know what I mean.

 

 

*See.. I did not see him that way at all. He wasn't some sort of "snob" you are right.. but he was also very much just out looking for a good time. He hung out with that "help" but that wasn't because he didn't care about their social standing.. he was just looking for a good time.. and shooting dice was his kind of fun. It wasn't about flying in the face of "proper society".. it was just about what sort of good time can I have for myself.*

 

 

 

But if he had a problem being seen with the help, he wouldn't shoot dice with them. He could care less about that. He openly says "hi" to the musician. Again, he's very comfortable with who he is. He's not worrying about what others are going to think of him, ala Alice. He's the opposite of her. Yeah, so he wanted to have his fun. I'm fine with that.

 

 

*Though I do confess some of the characters were a lot of fun (Mr. Grey.. i loved the old guys.. in a lot of ways they were more "3 stooges" than 3 Musketeers. ha.)*

 

 

They are called the "Three Musketeers" in the film. I agree, they are more like the Three Stooges.

 

 

*As for the main story.. there were the standard "stories" there.. the good guys were GOOD and the bad guy(s) were very rotten.. etc.. there was even a level of "conflict" to the romance (though to me.. that was really kind of ridiculous too.. she had NO clue, did she.. about what was going on.. duh)*

 

 

Wow! You sound like me! I do agree, it was pretty much standard fare for the era. But I did like the Fordian touches.

Link to post
Share on other sites

By the time he'd made this movie, Hudson really had learned comic timing. He's very funny and I agree he's very funny in Send Me No Flowers, too. You should watch it, Hudson's hypochonriac is hilarious. 'Doc...I have a pain every time I press here.' 'Then don't press there.' Ha!"

 

For my money, the trilogy of comedies that Doris Day and Rock Hudson did ("PILLOW TALK" "LOVER COME BACK" "SEND ME NO FLOWERS") were mistaken identity, battle of the sexes, fun fun comedies. If one is feeling down in the dumps I defy them to walk away from any of those three films and not feel good. (I'm not talking about clinical depressions ...I'm talking about down in the dumps). The situations, the comic timing, the production values and Day's & Hudson's comfort for each other were so charming and engaging.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hiya, Spunky -- *However, I think maybe you and I, Frank, can agree that the family members, with all their faults, really did care about one another in the end, and came together to help each other. This is what I like in the story the best. They rise up frm the ashes of their personal disaster and learn something.... they take their medicine without squawking.*

 

 

Yes, we are in agreement. The ending is what saved the film for me. And the dad gets his old job back! Some nice lessons are certainly learned.

 

 

*I see how you can think it's a lot like Pride and Prejudice, but I see it as totally different - a family story , the type you usually like - how the family learns about itself - each of them get a good look in the mirror, and they see that*

 

 

 

*1. they have each been drastically wrong, to the point of delusion or destruction*

 

 

 

*and*

 

 

 

*2. they aren't all that bad after all. Once they see what they did wrong, they each attempt to correct the mistakes they have made.*

 

 

 

You're right, it is different than *Pride and Prejudice* in terms of the family lessons. I certainly wasn't saying the two films are similar in terms of story. It's just the entire social scene and marrying a rich guy made me think of *Pride and Prejudice*. Interestingly, I liked the dad in *Pride and Prejudice*. He knew the score but stayed in the background.

 

*And I personally think NO one could have played Alice except Katherine Hepburn - it was a brave choice to play her the way she did, because Alice is hard to like.... As an actress, it's always tempting to want to be seen in the best possible light. Hepburn is brutal, she shows all Alice's faults spectacularly well. without flinching. But it works opposite than you would think. Because of Hepburn's (and Steven's) clarity and harsh portrayal, Alice is also a really poignant character to me, very sad and lonely. It's one of my favorite of Kate's performances, she doesn't pull any punches.*

 

Actually, I liked Alice. I saw her as Arthur (Fred MacMurray) did. I liked the kind of girl she was. I only disliked her when she started to put on a front. And that's the point of the film. Alice is beautiful when she's herself and ugly when she's trying to be someone else. Having said that, I do find a girl who is trying hard to impress me to be very cute. It's funny what a girl thinks is going to impress you. The same can be said for guys with girls.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ciao, Snippy -- *I can't disagree. I just thought the whole egghead angle would be up your alley.*

 

What are you saying?! :) Yes, I'm very eggy. I need to watch some Thundarr.

 

*Five out of seven are noirs!*

 

 

What do you expect?!

 

 

*Two kisses, two doors.*

 

 

Oh heck, that's the story of my entire life!

 

 

*The story was the problem? Why? I thought it was just that it was an all-female picture that bothered you.*

 

 

Prison films all tend to follow a similar pattern. The new criminal is scared and in for quite a few eye-openers. They are befriended by some tough prison leader who teaches them the ropes. Eventually, they rise to a higher level of respect within the entire prison. Then you need to have a horrifyingly cruel warden or guard who tortures the lead and others but ends up getting their comeuppance. The only thing different with these films tends to be how it ends.

 

 

I will say that an all-female film does make me wary. Having said that, *Stage Door* is a film that I really like.

 

 

*I'm with Ro on this. The husband was a bit of a lay about. His whining got on my nerves. The mother was wrong at the bottom of it all because as you say, all her focus was on material things. But I don't see the father as a "regular Joe". Most "regular Joes" worked a lot harder than he did and had a little more self-respect. You take pride in your family and your home, not let it fall down around your ears like he did.*

 

 

I do agree with you, the dad was weak. I think he had self-respect for what he did, though. He was happy. The only time he was unhappy was when his better half tore into him about how he should feel ashamed for being nothing "important" and for not being rich. He should have gave it back to her. But he wasn't that kind of guy. I would have just said, "yes, dear, you are right, I'm pathetic."

 

 

I will say, he seemed to milk whatever his malady was. He seemed like a big baby with that. We guys tend to be that way.

 

 

*By the way, I liked the brother, too. He was hilarious the way he kept making fun of his sister's airs.*

 

 

Exactly! He knew how ridiculous it all was.

 

 

*By the time he'd made this movie, Hudson really had learned comic timing. He's very funny and I agree he's very funny in Send Me No Flowers, too. You should watch it, Hudson's hypochonriac is hilarious. "Doc...I have a pain every time I press here." "Then don't press there." Ha!*

 

 

What I saw of *Send Me No Flowers*, I really liked. I did get the Rock Hudson/Doris Day collection, so I will watch all three. Something tells me *Lover Come Back* will be my least favorite of the three. The reason I watched it first was because it was on your favorite 50 films list.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey there, Mrs. Coop -- *Grabs hold of the lapel on her jacket and attempts her best Jimmy Durante impression: IIIIIIn poi-sin! :)*

 

Wow! You're droppin' Durante on me! Impressive.

 

*You're a turkey, Frank. You know that?*

 

Not me! You must have me confused with someone else!

 

*That thread was pure awesomeness to its core; you're just jealous ;)*

 

 

 

Never!

 

*No, she just happens to have acceptional taste when it comes to...well, everything! You should know that Frankie! Hehehe :)*

 

Gary Cooper, Greer Garson, Celine Dion is exceptional taste? Are you kidding?! Awful!

Link to post
Share on other sites

*Actually, I liked Alice. I saw her as Arthur (Fred MacMurray) did. I liked the kind of girl she was. I only disliked her when she started to put on a front. And that's the point of the film. Alice is beautiful when she's herself and ugly when she's trying to be someone else. Having said that, I do find a girl who is trying hard to impress me to be very cute. It's funny what a girl thinks is going to impress you. The same can be said for guys with girls.*

 

EXACTLY! But Hepburn nailed the vain, ridiculous, putting on airs part of Alice that is kind of awful. And I like her too.

 

In the book, Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Bennett is seen as just as much at fault for his family's bad behavior as the mother. His refusal to step in and take a little control leads to his daughter being taken advantage of. That being said, I do like him a lot, he's one of my favorite characters. But locking one's self in one's study with your ears covered is not the way to deal with your family. He mentally walked away and it causes most of his family real danger.

 

 

Let me pose a scenario to you.

 

 

I have to bring up a little background here. What was going to happen to the Bennett girls if they did not make a "good match" before their aged father died?

 

 

First of all, the Bennetts would lose their family home, because girls could not inherit. So unless one of them married Mr. Collins, that house they lived in was gone. They would be out on the street unless some relative put them up - and really, who is going to take 5 girls and their aged mother to live with them? Right. No one in their right mind. So it is not a question of the mother not being satisfied with what she's got.... she would literally lose her home, and any hope for the girls of keeping their station in life. Most parents want their kids to do better than they did.

 

 

So now the girls have no home, no furniture, no posessions at all and no source of income. They cannot hope to marry, because they have no prospects and are shunned in polite society.

 

 

Now say Elizabeth wants to marry Mr. Wickham, who has no money, is a soldier and a rake. Jane had been dumped by Mr. Bingley. Jane is firstborn, and now she will be an old maid - no one will take her now, for she has no dowry. This is not just a sad thing, it's catastrophic for the family, because they will have to support her and with no money. Suppose Elizabeth had made this marriage to Mr. Wickham in spite of polite society's insistance that the eldest marry first. They have nofriends to spnoge off of, so Wickham runs off with some young thing, leaving Elizabeth destitute. He's not just leaving her, he's leaving an entire family to go to debtor's prison ... it's not like any of the girls could work for a living at that time.

 

 

So I am saying that although Mrs. Bennett is foolish and silly, she is definitely NOT a reprehensible creature for doing her job as a mother - looking out for her daughters' interests. Whereas Mr. Bennett has not taken a hand in his daughters' future, instead abdicating responsibility by reading and hiding in his study to get away. He has created a situation from which his daughters will never escape, actually causing them harm. He is relying on some Deus ex machina to solve things for his family. Thank goodness that actually happens.

 

 

So which one is more "reprehensible? the father for abdicating responsibility or the mother for pushing too hard?

 

 

Obviously things are a little different for the Adams', but the mother was from a time when women still did not work for a living. And she wants something better for her child than to be always scrabbling for money. I do not think this is ALWAYS the wrong thing. It;s easy in this day and age to take the noble position of marrying for love, and to think that these women were just gold diggers. I say that these women were trying to protect their families, in the only acceptable way they could. So don't be too rough on them. They were simply trying the best way they could, and pushed too hard, perhaps because of their husbands' lackadaisical approach to parenting. SOMEBODY has to be the responsible one - check out A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLYN sometime to see a spin on the faltering husband sometime. It's a great movie.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Aug 3, 2011 11:17 AM

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Aug 3, 2011 11:19 AM

Link to post
Share on other sites

Very well put, Jackie. I agree and I further believe both P&P and AA are critiques of the social structures that create these scenarios. They are not just critiques of the individuals, but something bigger.

 

Today, Austen might critique the "trading up" mentality to marriage...it's still the same vanity and selfishness at work in societies that value status and materialism over character and values.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, I wasn't criticizing the situation in *Pride and Prejudice*. As Miss G wisely points out, I believe it's more of a critique on the societal ways than the people. Society is creating this way of thinking and living. So Mrs. Bennet is simply doing as you say, looking out for her and her girls. It then becomes a competition, which you can still find today with women. And all of it is a horrible watch for this guy!

 

*Alice Adams* is different. I really don't think the Adams were scrambling for money. They seemed to be living quite comfortably. The problem was they weren't rich and didn't have extra money to spend on unnecessary stuff. It's only necessary if you are trying to live in a certain kind of world. We see this much more today than ever as everyone thinks of themselves as rich thanks to credit cards. Many are living outside their means.

 

The truth is, we men don't like to get in the affairs of women and girls. Too annoying. We only become concerned when we feel a guy isn't right for our daughter. We sometimes go way overboard with that, too. Ironically, I finished re-watching *Sweet Smell of Success* just last night. But if you're talking gowns and dances and dinner parties and weddings and... ugh! I'm going to the study... to watch sports!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you, and do see that it is much more a satire or critique of the kind of societal restrictions or biases that create this kind of situation in the first place.

 

And I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for a guy to have to deal with this stuff... it is no less frustrating for a woman with some sense to deal with "keeping up with the Joneses" in a growing daughter. Like you, Mr. Favell prefers to skirt the issue by running up to his computer in the study.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Aug 3, 2011 3:56 PM

Link to post
Share on other sites

*And I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for a guy to have to deal with this stuff... it is no less frustrating for a woman with some sense to deal with "keeping up with the Joneses" in a growing daughter. Like you, Mr. Favell prefers to skirt the issue by running up to his computer in the study.*

 

I've never been a parent, like you are, so I can only dream of what I'd do. For me, I'm all about creating self-respect and I believe this must be done by developing a sense of self versus following others with most everything.

 

I fully understand we all need to get along with our peers. We make friends through our similarities, not our differences. But there's no way I'm going to look to keep up with the Joneses with the superficial stuff. I don't care if "Joanie Jones" has this and that and we don't.

 

I don't want my daughter trying to be like Joanie because Joanie could end up getting into things and doing things I do not approve of. For you see, if your focus is on keeping up with the Joneses, you better be prepared for your daughter keeping up with everything. This is why I believe in creating self-respect and self-worth over being like the rest.

 

The problem with today is everybody believes in the materialistic. I don't. I believe it's empty and it creates selfish people who could care less about the important things in life, such as love and real feelings. I don't want a wife whose love must be bought. That's too cheap for me.

 

*I am glad you watched SSS! Yes, that's a story of "parental" responsibility gone horribly wrong in another direction.... ick! Poor Susie.*

 

I'll reply to your post in the "film noir" thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, to harp a little more on Mr. Adams.

 

MrGrimes...you say Mr Adams was right and things were just fine as they were, making Mrs Adams all wrong. But what about what I mentioned, how the house they lived in was practically falling down around their ears? It looked like a dilapidated shack and all it needed was attention...the kind of attention the men of the house were supposed to take care of or hire out. Paint, repairs, lawn care...all of that looks like it hasn't been done to the place since it was built. Why in heck did he let it go so long? I understand he was sick for some time, but this has been going on longer. So why didn't he whip that son of his into taking up some of that slack? I point all this out to show how he just didn't care about even the responsibiities that were his own. If he didn't want to be bothered as you say, and just put his nose in the paper when he got home, he needed to give his wife enough money to hire someone to care for the place. Otherwise, don't get married, buy a house and have kids if you can't afford to maintain a decent home. That place was falling apart, it was not satisfactory for anyone but a pig.

 

And another thing, probably the most annoying quality about Mr. Adams is his sycophantic behavior about his employer. It was always "Mr So-and-So this" and "Mr So-and-So that", about a man who actually owed him something his by rights (that invention or formula). Adams wouldn't make a move in life without thinking if Mr So-and-So would approve. He acted like the man was a little tin god. I found it even more infuriating than anything else. Humility is one thing, and laudable, but this wasn't about that, this was putting his boss ahead of everything at home.

 

I bring these things up to point out what the women of the house had to live with for years and years. He wasn't a "regular Joe". Regular Joe's do a much better job at fulfilling their responsibilities...and that has nothing to do with trying to live beyond their means.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with anything you said, Fordy Guns. Mr. Adams did sit on his rear too much. So you've all helped me to see that. He should have taken more pride in himself and this would have helped him take more pride in his own home. You were all right to point out he needed to stand up to his wife more instead of looking to hide from her. I think he did that because he knew she was more right than wrong with her criticisms of him.

 

And you are right about his kissing his boss' rear too much. But I believe he was afraid to rock the boat. He was a meek man. There's no getting around that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I make it seem like I DO want to keep up with the Joneses? Or that I was trying to teach my daughter to do so? I certainly hope not.

 

I was trying (I guess not very well) to understand why a woman like Mrs. Adams would feel like her daughter did not have enough of the finer things in life, I was NOT condoning her behavior in any way. These are the kinds of things that I find fascinating in characters and relationships. How, over time, a woman and a man who are obviously nice people, who love one another, would end up doing things or feeling things that they might not realize are destructive to their whole family.. I just didn't want Mrs. Adams to be castigated as the only one who contributed to the Adams family (hee hee) problems.

 

I am sorry if my last comment came off sounding snippy. I didn't mean it to, I meant it as a bit of a joke. Men are not the only ones who have a hard time dealing with issues like this. It comes up, and not just once, but over and over again, and we can't always run off to the study. We deal with it, and it doesn't always come at the time you want it to. You don't get the choice of when to deal and when not to. My last comment was not supposed to be a cut to you or to Mr. Favell.

 

I guess the general fear that men have of "women's stuff" mystifies me. I hope I did not offend you?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
© 2021 Turner Classic Movies Inc. A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Settings
×
×
  • Create New...