The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread

[JackFavell]

I'll have to skip the tomatoes since Alice can't eat them anymore, but the rest sounds great! Thanks for the tips, I love soup and it sounds just right for this time of year.

[molo14]

Hey everyone,

 

I'm been enjoying the *Mildred Pierce* discussion.

 

_*Frank Grimes wrote*_ *14. Mildred Pierce -- A pretty entertaining film. I liked the outset of the film quite a bit. I liked Joan Crawford throughout. She has yet to let me down. Jack Carson was very good, as usual. I like Zachary Scott when he's a snake, and he's that, here. I also liked how we are being shown a career-minded woman attempting to make a name for herself while still trying to be a mother, albeit a misguided one.*

 

The film is very well paced. The story keeps moving. The opening scenes are great because from then on you are hooked. You stay involved. How did they get there? To borrow a reading expression, it's a real page turner.

 

_*Frank Grimes wrote:*_ *The only thing I didn't like was the ending. That was a letdown for me.*

 

_*CineMaven wrote:*_ *The ending? Nah, it doesn?t bother me. It?s typical for an American movie of the time..*

 

You might want to elaborate on that Frank. The ending didn't bother me either. I don't think Mildred and Bert are going to reconcile. Veda got what was coming to her. Mildred will have to deal with that for a long time.

 

_*CineMaven wrote:*_ *Another of the all-time classics of the 1940?s and I say the same about this as I did for Bette Davis. This film is the feather in the cap of Joan Crawford?s career.*

 

Joan waited two years for the right part to come along. She was brilliant at assessing her own career. She knew this film was the one that would put her back on top. Not only is Mildred a great part, the film was the right choice. The story is a winner and was adapted well for the big screen.

 

She had a lot of great support here too. Jack Carson is just suburb.This role confirms every thought I've always had about just how great an actor he was. Wally Fay has a lot of angles and Jack brought them all out. He hits all the right notes here.

 

_*CineMaven wrote:*_ *But making Veda so rotten to the core is a plus, for me and a lot hinges on how this part is played.*

 

I agree and Ann Blyth gives the performance of her career. Veda is a fun character to watch but she also drives the story with all her shenanigans.

 

_*CineMaven wrote:*_ *I must give a shout-out to the great Eve Arden. She?s in, and she?s out leaving her quips lingering on.*

 

The movie gets a lot of it's spunk from Arden's Ida. She provides a running commentary, dripping with sarcasm. Nobody does that quite like Eve Arden.

 

_*Frank Grimes wrote:*_ *I like Zachary Scott when he's a snake, and he's that, here.*

 

Scott does make a good snake!

 

That leaves us with Bruce Bennett as Bert. He's the character with the least to do really. Maybe that is why he doesn't stand out in my mind like the others.

 

So Joan had a lot riding on this film and everything came together nicely for her. The story was a winner. She gave her all to the part of Mildred and played it for all it's worth. She didn't have to result to unnecessary histrionics, she even underplayed it in spots. She gave the character of Mildred just what it needed. She was exceptional.

 

Of course we have to give credit to Michael Curtiz for putting it all together too. I haven't read much about the actual making of the film but what a fascinating set that must have been.

 

_*Frank Grimes wrote:*_ * I took it that Mildred (Joan Crawford) helped to create Veda (Ann Blyth) and Veda became a monster she didn't anticipate. Very "Dr. Frankenstein." There's a lot of "I want my child to have it better than me." That always seems to be the prevailing thought with parents. But where parents can fail miserably is in their definition of "better." And our world is absolutely awful right now with the definition of "better."*

 

Frank I really like the "Dr. Frankenstein" analogy. Mildred either couldn't see what she was doing to enable Veda or she couldn't stop trying to fix it, and doing it badly. Bert could see it, even Wally could see it. It didn't take long for Ida to get up to speed on the whole "Veda issue" either. It was always more than Veda being a brat, it was about Mildred too. Mildred seems to have attached a lot of importance to the symbolic things and not to the qualities of character.

 

_*Rohanaka writes:*_ *But if you think about it.. she was more or less designed to be that way by her lack of guidance and the free reign to love herself above all else (based on the attitude of her mother)*

 

Mildred's attitude about life and particularly her views on men are very interesting. We don't know a lot about the backstory between her and Bert, but it's obvious she has soured on men in general. She sees them as obstacles in some ways, as useful tools in other ways. Her marriage to Monte is a glaring example of that. It was a means to an end and she sweeps the broader repercussions out of her mind. It's all for Veda.

 

Mildred Pierce, both the character and the movie don't have an exactly glowing view of men.

 

So Mildred knows, or at least think she knows, that to make it in this world you have to look out for yourself. You have to be selfish. So it's natural to pass that line of thinking on to Veda. Now Mildred has almost given up on any personal happiness. Everything she does focuses on Veda. It drives her whole life. Mildred lost herself at some point, and I think it's clear she holds a grudge, but now she lives for Veda.

 

So we can ask ourselves why Veda became a monster but we also have to understand how Mildred became who she was.

 

_*CineMaven wrote:*_ *But I've been burnished by my experiences in life with school and work and social settings. I'm of two minds with Mildred and Veda.*

 

I loved your "two minds of Veda" comments. We are really picking up these characters in the middle of the story. Veda is already who she is. Mildred too, and Bert and Mildred have already soured before we get started. We get some good hints, a bit of insight, in the way they all interact and by the comments they make. There is still a lot we have to fill in. That's the fun part in a lot of ways.

 

_*CineMaven wrote:*_ *I might be biased. See, I like Mildred. I find her to be likeable. Just your ordinary housewife, enduring and stewing about Bert's rendezvouses with Mrs. Biederhoff, trying to make ends meet with her baking; trying to do the best for her kids.*

 

I like Mildred too. There is a lot to like in her. She has a lot of determination. She knows how to handle people pretty well, except Veda. She can be sympathetic too, like when she overhears Veda, early on in the film, comment on the dress she has worked so hard to buy for her.

 

We feel for her problems with Bert and Mrs. Biederhoff. I like her interaction with Wally. I like her quips and, in a way, I like her cynicism. She treats the people that work for her fairly, she understands where they're coming from. There is a lot that is appealing about Mildred.

 

_*CineMaven wrote:*_ *But I like Veda too. Hmmm...I mean I like watching her shenanigans. I like watching Veda run away from who she is. ( And you can never really do that. ) Her vitriol ( "...I want to get away from everything that reminds me of this place and you!!!" ) was astounding. Mildred put that there? Hmmm, I think not Dr. Freud. Veda was the Monstrous Child. I like to watch Monsters rage and destroy...from the safe distance a movie ticket affords me. She was magnificent. And "Mildred Pierce" wouldn?t be remembered today if it wasn?t for the performance Ann Blyth gave our Joanie to play off of.*

 

Very well said Maven. Veda is a lot of fun to watch. She's a great character. I agree with everything you wrote here.

 

_*Rohanaka wrote:*_ *But for me.. I think I just like to watch it so I can get GOOD and mad and blow off steam. ha. I remember gabbing a bit w/ Miss Maven about this one years ago.. Oh that Veda.. ha. OH that Mildred. They do get my dander up, that is for sure. *

 

I did enjoy reading the back and forth between you and the Maven. I probably don't get as riled up at Mildred as I should. I feel sorry for her. She is making the wrong decisions but she isn't doing it on purpose, of course. I know that really is no excuse but I guess I just have some sympathy for the severely but sincerely wrongheaded.

 

_*Miss Goddess wrote:*_ *Maybe Bert is partly to blame, too. He needed to be more of a participant in that household, instead he sort of slinked away from responsibility like the plague.*

 

Bert does not come off well. I guess we have to wonder what shaped Bert too! He doesn't seem as involved as he should. He also doesn't seem connected to the household in any real way.

 

By the time we meet Bert he is already involved with Mrs. Biederhof. His relationship with Mildred is on the rocks. He does offer up that he thinks Mildred is over doing it with Veda and he seems concerned that she might be on the road to making the same mistakes with Kay.

 

He doesn't like what Veda has become. He's tempted to slap her good if she keeps up her haughty attitude around him. Mildred doesn't like that one bit.

 

We also know he isn't working. Mildred has to take up the slack with her pie making and such. So by the time we see Bert his relationship with Mildred is about over.

 

So was he part of the problem from the start? A disinterested father? An ineffectual husband? Or was he just beaten down by it all over the years? He doesn't seem to have a lot business savvy like Wally. In fact, he seems like a real disappointment to Mildred by the time we meet him.

 

_*MissGoddess wrote:*_ *I always wonder what life might have been if Mildred had married Jack. *

 

Ha! I think it would have been an interesting partnership for a while. It would never have lasted.

 

Some parting thoughts on *Mildred Pierce*

 

Mildred's Fine Foods:

 

I like the whole building the restaurant part of the movie. I thought it was pretty fun and exciting. I like stuff like that in movies and the opening night scene was enjoyable.

 

Kay's Cough:

 

It was weird how no one really paid attention to Kay's bad cough. Veda sees it. Mildred sees it. Bert and Mrs Biederhof must have noticed on the drive. Did anyone else cringe at the thought of them taking the child swimming? We don't know what happened when they got to the lake. It's a sign that Kay was a little too "under the radar" with Mildred. I can't help but think that if Veda started hacking like that, Mildred would have been all over it.

 

That might not be fair. It's a part of the story that is not really touched on in detail.

 

Kay's Demise:

 

This is maybe the only time we see Veda's humanity. She is honestly grieving here. As for Mildred, well the loss of a child is so devastating, her reaction, her grief, was a weak point for me. Maybe I'm wrong here. I did like the "I'll never forget' part. Also, as CineMaven pointed out, her thoughts went right back to Veda in that moment.

 

Later, when Monte brings it up, it's too painful for Mildred to think about. She has put it out of her mind in order to function. That's sometimes all you can do. I just found all of that interesting.

 

Wally and Mildred:

 

Wally is an insufferable lech but, all in all, he was a pretty good friend to Mildred. He offers her good business advise. He tries to get her to see what is going on with Veda. When he ends up taking away the business, well I guess he could have handled it better, but it really wasn't his fault. He didn't start that trouble, Monte did. Still he should have warned Mildred about it.

 

Mildred's Dirty Deed:

 

So Mildred, confronted by Veda's crime in the beach house, decides to make Wally the fall guy. I always thought that was pretty cold of her. It's a big problem for me as far as Mildred's overall character is concerned. Sure she has to do something, anything to protect Veda. We all know that just has to be the top priority as far as Mildred is concerned, but I don't think Wally deserved that from her. He wasn't really her enemy. He was a man though. I guess that was enough for Mildred.

 

Edited by: molo14 on Jan 4, 2013 7:20 PM

[molo14]

Hi Miss Goddess,

 

>Molo, I hope you get to see it. It's on YouTube!

 

I actually have a copy of *The Tarnished Angels* in my collection. At least I think I do!

 

I'll watch it sometime over the weekend and get back to you.

[FrankGrimes]

Good evening, Ma Stone -- *I will hope to get a chance to see it sometime soon.. either from my dad recording in Feb.. or maybe at the library if they have it.*

 

I hope you do get to check out *The Naked City*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Yes it is.. I agree. There are many families that don't make it and break apart too.. becuase it can be so devastating. I have a cousin who has put our whole family (but specifically her own) through a HUGE pile of drama (mostly of her own making) and it took nearly 20 years for her to come out of that and get things together.. but I think overall she has finally been able to, at last. Still.. there is a lot of scarred wreakage between her and her one remaining son.. and the other of her sons is not living anymore (car accident several years ago) but while he was alive.. he had a LOT of issues that were all created by the things she put him through. Both those boys deserved better. And yet.. while it is easy for me to sit her and say all that.. and lay the whole thing at her feet.. Iknow she had NO idea that she was choosing the consequences she ended up with (for her or her sons) while she was making her choices. It could not have (and likely still isn't) easy for her to live with.*

 

 

That's a very sad story with hopefully a happy ending. *Bigger Than Life* is a film that really makes you uncomfortable, and that's its goal. You really feel the wife and son in this one. And yet you do understand what is happening to the father isn't really his fault. It's a tough, tough spot.

 

 

*Ugh.. ha. I am not sure now.. after all this talk that my old ticker could take an emotional ride like that.. but I still will check into it.*

 

 

It's a very upsetting film. It ain't "popcorn." *Bigger Than Life* is a newer Criterion film, so your library may have it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I was not expecting that little moment w/ the girl. I think it was nice though, if only to show the mental journey that Marshall went through to get to where he ended up.*

 

 

It's out of place. It's mainly used to show how some people don't place money and a secure means of living ahead of living together with someone you love. Calvin B. Marshall (Paul Douglas) and others usually place a great deal of emphasis on the means versus the actual daily living with someone. Is the deciding factor between two men the one who makes more money? Such thinking. But so many people do think this way.

 

 

*(and ps.. I likely need to add LITP to my list (of ones I need to check out from your list, ha) I did look it up but passed it by because I am not much on George H.. ha.. but maybe I should try and give it a chance)*

 

 

Oh, that's another film where your motherly view of life would be brought to the fore. And for that reason, you'd really enjoy the film. I think the setting and the characters aren't to your liking, including George Hamilton, but what the film is all about is something you'd appreciate.

 

 

*Exactly!! Mildred created her own monster.. LONG before she and her husband separated too. Very early on Veda was led to believe that she deserved "better" than what she had.. and so she was NEVER going to be happy because no matter what she got from Mildred.. Veda was always going to need it to be "better". And Mildred is the one who MADE her that way.. but the way she treated her early on.*

 

 

And I do feel Mildred really did play a major role in Veda's views on life, but I also agree with CineMaven, in that Veda had something inside of her even before Mildred started to bring it to the forefront. So the combination of the two really did play into Veda's becoming "Veda." I have a similar situation starting to brew in my family. Today, it's just a mother and a child. Well, children grow up and become adults. What kind of view on life is this child going to have? How will this effect their relationships with guys? It's worrisome.

 

 

*I did some looking around and here is the link to the chat I had w/ Miss Maven.. as I recall.. ha.. I was a bit hot under the collar at old Millie. ha. (almost more than at Veda) I still feel pretty much that way.. (did I mention I like to watch this movie when I feel like getting mad and blowing off some steam?? ha)*

 

 

I'll definitely check it out. I know how passionate both you and Lively Gal are, so it should be a good read. Passion is good... so long as respect remains.

 

 

*HEY.. I just realized.. Saurkraut is made from cabbage!! Yet ANOTHER TZ moment.. ha. I must be your long lost cousin after all. ha. (kinda scary aint it!!) *

 

 

Yes, that's exactly it. Sauerkraut (cabbage) is seen as good luck on New Year's Day for the PA Dutch. The reason for pork is that a pig roots forward. And here I am, stuck in the past.

[FrankGrimes]

Good evening to you, Lively Gal -- *Poor guy, you must need a vacation from the Christmas vacation. You've probably been running with all the Grimeseseses in your family. Hope you get more rest. You have your cyber family to consider.*

 

That was cute. I think my family is getting sick at the thought of being "Grimeseseses."

 

*I thought I knew it before, but now I really know that whenever I see Larry, betrayal is right around the corner.*

 

 

And you better not get too far in front! Best to linger.

 

 

*Yeah. It was shameful how she manipulated Joanie. Oh well, a kid's gotta know when to grow up and break away. There's no room for three in a marriage, as Princess Di said.*

 

 

That's for sure. But when people play on your emotions, it's really tough. Some of us carry some heavy guilt.

 

 

*Ahhhh, Ronnie was good. So very natural. Call me crazy, call me silly...but I briefly think of Lew Ayres in "Holiday" when I see Ronnie in this. The attractive boy who hides behind the bottle.*

 

 

Great comparison! That's excellent. You're right on point, as usual.

 

 

*Why'd you like him?*

 

 

I liked how Reagan played drunk throughout the film and his little character came to stand for an entire lifestyle. I thought he played it so well. All we had to do was see him and we "got it."

 

 

*But Bogie, oh boy. I wish he hadn't tried the brogue. It was too distracting. ( Now if the stable boy was Errol Flynn... )*

 

 

Poor Errol! I just felt as if Bogie was still in the penalty box while watching the flick. I liked his character, though.

 

 

*Wow. You give me food for thought with that one. I think I’d go with "Dark Victory" because there's more for me to see Bette do. She's more fiery and then gets to tone it down. Her evolution goes from red hot to a burnished warmth - her scenes at the Vermont ranch... lovingly married. I love "Now Voyager" too. In this one we have a very quiet Bette. She's repressed, beaten down...and then turns it up - blossoming into an orchid. I like Bette w/guns a-blazing. Both are good vehicles for her - and she knows just how to drive 'em. To be Bette Davis back then... sigh!!! The envy of ev'ry actress. What a career.*

 

 

That was wonderfully written. You clearly "get it." And not just with Bette. You make a good point about Bette's tonal change being more drastic in *Dark Victory*. She really is playing both ends in that one. Although, I must say, it's rather amazing to see Bette playing "mousey." Bette Davis?! Talk about sitting on yourself.

 

 

*Passive. I hear ya. When Joan & Bette did "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" It was touted that the ultimate masochist meets the ultimate sadist. I guess you can tell which was which.*

 

 

That's funny!

 

 

*Do you like more passive actresses? Am I reading that correctly? If so, why's that?*

 

 

I like both. Many of my favorites play aggressive women, such as Carole Lombard, Joan Bennett, Rita Hayworth, Ava Gardner, Gloria Grahame, Barbara Stanwyck, Katharine Hepburn, etc.. I also like my share of passive women, such as Deborah Kerr, Grace Kelly, Gail Russell, Cathy O'Donnell, Gene Tierney, Ingrid Bergman, etc.. I think it just boils down to the character and the actress with that character.

 

 

Bette Davis' aggressiveness is usually not attached to romance, but power. That can be a turn-off for me. This is why I tend to like the "softer," romantic Bette. Joan has been nothing but quiet and caught up in situations in all the films I have seen with her with the exception of *Strange Cargo*, where she's a fiery handful.

 

 

*I'd probably have to give "Strange Cargo" another go 'round. I hadn't been crazy about it, but I am now getting into Frank Borzage, thanxx to my movie mentor who taught me to appreciate him.*

 

 

It's mostly a religious film, but I do like the characters and peformances. Joan really gives it to Gable. And you know Gable is going to give it right back.

 

 

*Would you tell me what Joan Crawford films you've seen already? Then I can suggest one for you.*

 

 

How I have liked "Joan's" films:

 

 

1. Johnny Guitar

2. Sudden Fear

3. Grand Hotel

4. Strange Cargo

5. What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?

6. Daisy Kenyon

7. Mildred Pierce

8. The Unknown

9. Autumn Leaves

10. Possessed

 

 

*Whew! The $64,000 question. Well...let me try and give you the short version. Others here want to talk to you, so I won't wear you down. What a classic case of Mother and Daughter. ( I'm trying to recall a film where this is such a clash between Father & Son, but I can't. Can you? Anyone? )*

 

 

The only "father and son" film that comes to mind for me is *Home from the Hill*, with Robert Mitchum playing the father and George Hamilton (that guy again) playing his son. I know *House of Strangers* and *Broken Lance* deal with a father and sons.

 

 

*It's the classic battle between Mother / Daughter gone horribly wrong. We are created by our parents. Literally. And then molded by them. But there is something in us that is our own. I am who I am today b'cuz of my folks. But I've been burnished by my experiences in life with school and work and social settings. I'm of two minds with Mildred and Veda.*

 

 

I completely agree with all of that. How we are raised goes a long way in molding our ways and thinking, but we eventually add our own life experiences to the equation, starting with school.

 

 

*Mind #1 - Yes, Mildred definitely spared the rod and spoiled the child. She tried to buy Veda's love ( Kay was the daughter to have... ) and when you try to buy someone, that never works, does it. But Mildred did come from a place of love, of wanting more for her kids than she had.*

 

 

And many parents do come at it with the idea of love, but also something selfish, too. There's an egotism to it. A more successful child makes us feel like a great success. The child is the "bottom line." If the "company" turns a major profit, the Chief Executive Parent gets the accolades. Also, I think there is a repressed bitterness with some mothers who look to spoil their kids, especially daughters. They wish they were spoiled and they hold it against their parents and/or husband. So they look to "lash out" by spoiling their kid. What they often fail to see are the future consequences of their child and how they will value life and others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Mind #2* - Dear dear confused Veda. The patron saint of B1TCH-GODDESSES! I saw a steely glint in her eye from the get-go. And I don't think it was something that Mildred put in her. I think there was something sociopathic about Veda from before the movie started, and Mildred poured gasoline on those flames. Veda was never going to really be happy. I loved Monty's "slap" in the face to Veda. Ha!!*

 

 

And I do see this, as well. Kay surely doesn't act like Veda, so there is something about what we're born with and our birth order. I'll give an example of Mildred and Veda in my life. A child in my family has an iPhone. She was given this as a "divorce" gift from her mother. Uh-huh. But now the child badmouths the phone since it's now "outdated." Where's the appreciation for what we have? It's not that, anymore. It's all about appreciating what we don't have. Now think of what a future relationship with a guy could be like with such an attitude. Is this just a child wanting everything or have the seeds been sown for something deeper-rooted? When you're given everything, can you value anything?

 

 

*I might be biased. See, I like Mildred. I find her to be likeable. Just your ordinary housewife, enduring and stewing about Bert's rendezvouses with Mrs. Biederhoff, trying to make ends meet with her baking; trying to do the best for her kids.*

 

 

I like Mildred, it's just I feel her projecting her ideals onto Veda are misguided. I understand why she does it, though. She's feeling trapped and she is looking for her freedom and happiness through Veda. Mildred is passive-aggressive, namely with her husband, Bert.

 

 

*But I like Veda too. Hmmm...I mean I like watching her shenanigans. I like watching Veda run away from who she is. ( And you can never really do that. ) Her vitriol ( "...I want to get away from everything that reminds me of this place and you!!!" ) was astounding. Mildred put that there? Hmmm, I think not Dr. Freud. Veda was the Monstrous Child. I like to watch Monsters rage and destroy...from the safe distance a movie ticket affords me. She was magnificent. And "Mildred Pierce" wouldn’t be remembered today if it wasn’t for the performance Ann Blyth gave our Joanie to play off of.*

 

 

Mildred may not have put that there, but she didn't remove it, either. She let it grow and grow and grow. She even watered it! That's not good parenting. Veda's actions are that of a spoiled little girl, not even a teenager. And the trouble is, it's tough to parent a girl her age after allowing the behavior to blossom. The parenting needed to occur much earlier. But since Mildred was so down on herself, she couldn't parent.

 

 

*That movie should have been an object lesson for every female who’s ever seen it. Mildred and Veda had a very dysfunctional symbiotic relationship.*

 

 

Very much so. But what I've learned is that people only see what they want to see. It's always someone else, never them. And our society is at its very worst with this thinking.

[FrankGrimes]

*Veda and Mildred, what a pair. Maybe Bert is partly to blame, too. He needed to be more of a participant in that household, instead he sort of slinked away from responsibility like the plague.*

 

I think he deserves a lot of the blame.

 

*I always wonder what life might have been if Mildred had married Jack. *

 

Like he could handle relationships! He's Good-Time Charlie!

[FrankGrimes]

How do, Madhat -- *The film is very well paced. The story keeps moving. The opening scenes are great because from then on you are hooked. You stay involved. How did they get there? To borrow a reading expression, it's a real page turner. *

 

The opening is arguably my favorite part of *Mildred Pierce*. It's a really good opener.

 

*You might want to elaborate on that Frank. The ending didn't bother me either. I don't think Mildred and Bert are going to reconcile. Veda got what was coming to her. Mildred will have to deal with that for a long time.*

 

I didn't like who did the shooting and for the reasons they did it. It felt like a letdown. "All this for that?" It was "Who Shot Mr. Burns?"

 

 

*She had a lot of great support here too. Jack Carson is just suburb.This role confirms every thought I've always had about just how great an actor he was. Wally Fay has a lot of angles and Jack brought them all out. He hits all the right notes here.*

 

It's funny, but after watching Jack Carson in another film yesterday, I realized that I see Jack as often playing "Babe Ruth." I do like him. He's always entertaining.

 

*I agree and Ann Blyth gives the performance of her career. Veda is a fun character to watch but she also drives the story with all her shenanigans.*

 

What's interesting is that Veda is often a driving force off-screen. She's certainly a driving force with Mildred.

 

 

*That leaves us with Bruce Bennett as Bert. He's the character with the least to do really. Maybe that is why he doesn't stand out in my mind like the others.*

 

 

Bert is a mixed bag with me. The problem with him is that his rules seemed to apply to Mildred but not to him. His own failures seem to be behind his scolding Mildred. Again, passive-aggressive.

 

 

*Frank I really like the "Dr. Frankenstein" analogy. Mildred either couldn't see what she was doing to enable Veda or she couldn't stop trying to fix it, and doing it badly. Bert could see it, even Wally could see it. It didn't take long for Ida to get up to speed on the whole "Veda issue" either. It was always more than Veda being a brat, it was about Mildred too. Mildred seems to have attached a lot of importance to the symbolic things and not to the qualities of character.*

 

 

That was nicely said. And I do agree with your assessment. As I mentioned earlier, parents don't always see the big picture. They don't realize how their treatement will effect their child and their future relationships. Parents also think of themselves way too much. "I'm not going to prevent my kids from having things like I was."

 

 

*Mildred's attitude about life and particularly her views on men are very interesting. We don't know a lot about the backstory between her and Bert, but it's obvious she has soured on men in general. She sees them as obstacles in some ways, as useful tools in other ways. Her marriage to Monte is a glaring example of that. It was a means to an end and she sweeps the broader repercussions out of her mind. It's all for Veda.*

 

 

 

 

 

I can see how Mildred would be upset at men after Bert's treatment of her. She's really shackled by him and his horrible behavior. She seemed to understand Wally and what he was all about. She started out cautious with Monte, but then he seemed to gain her trust and fool her. Then she did the foolishness with the marriage. That told you just how weak she still was.

 

 

*Mildred Pierce, both the character and the movie don't have an exactly glowing view of men.*

 

 

Boy, ain't that the truth.

 

 

*So Mildred knows, or at least think she knows, that to make it in this world you have to look out for yourself. You have to be selfish. So it's natural to pass that line of thinking on to Veda. Now Mildred has almost given up on any personal happiness. Everything she does focuses on Veda. It drives her whole life. Mildred lost herself at some point, and I think it's clear she holds a grudge, but now she lives for Veda.*

 

 

I think everyone in the film is thinking of themselves, really. Mildred is doing things for Veda, but she's doing them for selfish reasons.

 

 

*So we can ask ourselves why Veda became a monster but we also have to understand how Mildred became who she was.*

 

 

I agree.

 

*By the time we meet Bert he is already involved with Mrs. Biederhof. His relationship with Mildred is on the rocks. He does offer up that he thinks Mildred is over doing it with Veda and he seems concerned that she might be on the road to making the same mistakes with Kay.*

 

*He doesn't like what Veda has become. He's tempted to slap her good if she keeps up her haughty attitude around him. Mildred doesn't like that one bit.*

 

 

*We also know he isn't working. Mildred has to take up the slack with her pie making and such. So by the time we see Bert his relationship with Mildred is about over.*

 

 

*So was he part of the problem from the start? A disinterested father? An ineffectual husband? Or was he just beaten down by it all over the years? He doesn't seem to have a lot business savvy like Wally. In fact, he seems like a real disappointment to Mildred by the time we meet him.*

 

 

I think it all stems from Bert's failings to provide. He feels like a failure and his attitude with Mildred and his cheating stem from this. This in turn creates Mildred's bitterness. What I don't know about is when she started to spoil Veda. Was it when times were good with Bert? Or has she turned to spoiling Veda as a way to escape her own unhappiness and anger with her husband?

 

*Kay's Demise:*

 

 

*This is maybe the only time we see Veda's humanity. She is honestly grieving here. As for Mildred, well the loss of a child is so devastating, her reaction, her grief, was a weak point for me. Maybe I'm wrong here. I did like the "I'll never forget' part. Also, as CineMaven pointed out, her thoughts went right back to Veda in that moment.*

 

 

*Later, when Monte brings it up, it's too painful for Mildred to think about. She has put it out of her mind in order to function. That's sometimes all you can do. I just found all of that interesting.*

 

 

I think you find a lot of Mildred's guilt with Kay and her demise. And the best way for some people to handle guilt? Ignore it. Avoid it. Run and hide from it.

 

*Wally and Mildred:*

 

 

*Wally is an insufferable lech but, all in all, he was a pretty good friend to Mildred. He offers her good business advise. He tries to get her to see what is going on with Veda. When he ends up taking away the business, well I guess he could have handled it better, but it really wasn't his fault. He didn't start that trouble, Monte did. Still he should have warned Mildred about it.*

 

 

I'm with ya. I think Wally really did like Mildred. And Mildred was smart enough to keep him at a distance. He'll always desire her, this way. And she uses that against him in the worst of ways!

 

*Mildred's Dirty Deed:*

 

 

*So Mildred, confronted by Veda's crime in the beach house, decides to make Wally the fall guy. I always thought that was pretty cold of her. It's a big problem for me as far as Mildred's overall character is concerned. Sure she has to do something, anything to protect Veda. We all know that just has to be the top priority as far as Mildred is concerned, but I don't think Wally deserved that from her. He wasn't really her enemy. He was a man though. I guess that was enough for Mildred. *

 

Precisely! I think the absolute worst thing Mildred does concerns her sticking it to Wally. That was despicable. And that tells you how far gone she was with Veda. It was rather Shakespearean, in that regard.

[MissGoddess]

I agree, Jack was too much of a good-time charlie. But it says a lot about the quality of the men in *mildred pierce* that i think wally is the best of the bunch.

 

so cliff robertson was too much in *autumn leaves* for you to like the movie? I don't like him, either, but like you said, the first part of the movie is so good and I admit I thought Vera and Pa Cartwright made an unusually striking pair of villains!

[FrankGrimes]

*I agree, Jack was too much of a good-time charlie. But it says a lot about the quality of the men in mildred pierce that i think wally is the best of the bunch.*

 

He was definitely the best of the bunch. Maybe because he wasn't tied to a woman! Once in a relationship, the faults of people really emerge.

 

*so cliff robertson was too much in autumn leaves for you to like the movie?*

 

I thought his performance was terrific. It's just I found him to be annoying as heck. There's a real creepy feel to his and Joan's relationship, from the start. He's so whiny.

 

*I don't like him, either, but like you said, the first part of the movie is so good*

 

I did like the first half of the film. I like the unsure, repressed Millicent (Joan Crawford). I completely understand the "there are always reasons why you can't be with someone or do something" of Millicent. I know it well. So I was into the film. Then the focus switches from Millicent to Burt (Cliff Robertson) and I started to not like the film. It's an interesting turn, though.

 

*and I admit I thought Vera and Pa Cartwright made an unusually striking pair of villains!*

 

What an odd couple and distraction they were. Talk about more creepiness!

[MissGoddess]

> I thought his performance was terrific. It's just I found him to be annoying as heck. There's a real creepy feel to his and Joan's relationship, from the start. He's so whiny.

>

 

It's a very unsettling bunch. Joan starts to seem better off before this strange crowd came into her life. This movie reminds me, in the first part and Joan's situation plus the presence of Ruth Donnelly, of Joan's early career. She often played lonely working girls who get with the wrong guy or they get off to a rocky start, and of course there's the wise-cracking gal pal for laughs.

 

One of my biggest hang-ups was her appearance, she's very harshly made up and that hair doesn't help. But it was mostly her wardrobe that used to bother me...it's way too "young" for her age. Then I I think I realized that this is deliberate. Joan's character is sliding into old maidenhood and trying to cling to youth (and hope), so, like so many women (even more so today), she dresses younger than is appropriate. Smart Joan! I should have known. And her appearance contrasts sharply making the character seem more vulnerable when you realize how hard she's trying to fight against her situation. It's not easy to watch because it's a brave role, I think.

 

> I did like the first half of the film. I like the unsure, repressed Millicent (Joan Crawford). I completely understand the "there are always reasons why you can't be with someone or do something" of Millicent. I know it well. So I was into the film. Then the focus switches from Millicent to Burt (Cliff Robertson) and I started to not like the film. It's an interesting turn, though.

>

 

I agree. I could have enjoyed the movie if Burt's issues turned out to be more mundane, but like you say, it veers the movie into an almost horror realm.

 

 

>

> *and I admit I thought Vera and Pa Cartwright made an unusually striking pair of villains!*

>

>

> What an odd couple and distraction they were. Talk about more creepiness!

>

 

They are by far the most disturbing part of the movie. I mean, that whole scenario, what they did to that poor guy---his own son! How can Ben Cartwright be so evil?!!! I figured you'd enjoy seeing Vera be bad.

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Jan 6, 2013 11:14 AM

[FrankGrimes]

*It's a very unsettling bunch. Joan starts to seem better off before this strange crowd came into her life.*

 

That's exactly right. And I did like that twist. It actually makes loneliness a better option.

 

*This movie reminds me, in the first part and Joan's situation plus the presence of Ruth Donnelly, of Joan's early career. She often played lonely working girls who get with the wrong guy or they get off to a rocky start, and of course there's the wise-cracking gal pal for laughs.*

 

If that's the case, I'll probably like some "early Joan."

 

*One of my biggest hang-ups was her appearance, she's very harshly made up and that hair doesn't help.*

 

I always think that's Joan. Joan was 50 and Cliff was 33.

 

*But it was mostly her wardrobe that used to bother me...it's way too "young" for her age. Then I I think I realized that this is deliberate. Joan's character is sliding into old maidenhood and trying to cling to youth (and hope), so, like so many women (even more so today), she dresses younger than is appropriate. Smart Joan! I should have known. And her appearance contrasts sharply making the character seem more vulnerable when you realize how hard she's trying to fight against her situation. It's not easy to watch because it's a brave role, I think.*

 

I didn't notice the wardrobe except for the swimming suit. That was a scene that was well done. I liked how awkward and embarrassed she was about it. She was trying to cover herself up. I believe that little scene truly captured the courageous step she was taking to be with Burt.

 

*I agree. I could have enjoyed the movie if Burt's issues turned out to be more mundane, but like you say, it veers the movie into an almost horror realm.*

 

It really does turn into a horror film. And I think that's good. It's just Burt (Cliff Robertson) wore me out.

 

*They are by far the most disturbing part of the movie. I mean, that whole scenario, what they did to that poor guy---his own son! How can Ben Cartwright be so evil?!!!*

 

What's funny is that I noticed Lorne's wardrobe, here. I thought that was evil! Vera looked lovely, though.

 

*I figured you'd enjoy seeing Vera be bad.*

 

No! I like her good! I don't want her kissing up on Lorne!

[JackFavell]

The older I get, the better looking Joan gets!

 

She had a great figure all the way through. But I am more forgiving of her hair and makeup as I get older, because she is very vulnerable as an actress, so I can get past the outward appearance. I like the swimsuit scene too. It's really about what happens when love comes in, you open up and let the other person see you. Too bad Cliff didn't give her a warning of what he really was.

 

I hope you will watch some more early Joan, Frank. She's terrific in PAID, OUR DANCING DAUGHTERS, POSSESSED AND RAIN.

[FrankGrimes]

*The older I get, the better looking Joan gets! *

 

That's funny!

 

*She had a great figure all the way through. But I am more forgiving of her hair and makeup as I get older, because she is very vulnerable as an actress, so I can get past the outward appearance.*

 

It's so much tougher for women since Society places a far greater deal of pressure on them with appearance. It's especially tough for leading ladies.

 

How often do we get to see an older woman with a younger man?

 

*I like the swimsuit scene too. It's really about what happens when love comes in, you open up and let the other person see you.*

 

It's always hard to be "naked." Talk about trust. And it used to be the ultimate trust for women. Today, it seems much less so, which is sad. Although, I'm finding lots of women like to project something they really are not.

 

*Too bad Cliff didn't give her a warning of what he really was.*

 

I'm not sure he even understood his psychosis.

 

*I hope you will watch some more early Joan, Frank. She's terrific in PAID, OUR DANCING DAUGHTERS, POSSESSED AND RAIN.*

 

You know me, I'm game for most anything with film. Of those films, I only have *Possessed*.

[JamesJazGuitar]

With regards to: How often do we get to see an older woman with a younger man?

 

Well very often if one is watching any Crawford movie made after 1940!

 

My view of Crawford: Well I really wasn't that in to her. i.e. it took me a while to 'get' Joan. But I now see her magic. She had an 'it' quality and really projects this on the screen regardless of her age (i.e. her looks fading don't dim that quality much). As they say, she was a true movie star.

 

 

[JackFavell]

I'd say that Possessed is the one of those I like least, but they all have something going for them. In fact, if that's the least picture, that's really saying something! She's terrific in it, with Gable her favorite costar. It's another kind of like Grand Hotel, she's a poor girl contemplating a better life for herself, trying to get ahead. She's got a wonderful speech where she lets loose and tells her stolid boyfriend where to get off, she calls him turnip (!) and tells him that if she were a man, no one would think anything was wrong with her trying to better herself.

 

Oh I should also make sure you have the 1931 movie, she was also in a totally different movie with the same title, in 1947. Also good, with Van Heflin.

 

Joan worked very hard, and she wanted to be a good actress. In the end, I think she accomplished her goal, maybe sometimes in spite of wanting to always appear as desirable.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Jan 6, 2013 3:14 PM

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Fordy Guns -- *yikes! you're surpassing me in your john wayne viewing...you'll now have to talk to Ro and MovieMan as I bet they've seen The Green Berets (I never have). I only know John Ford visited the set (ha, he never could let Duke direct a movie ALL alone).*

 

Movieman has seen just about every film of his, I believe. I won't reach that level. I may have passed Quiet Gal. I'm not sure.

 

*The Green Berets* is definitely not for you, even though your "Harry O" is in the pic.

 

*Well, the movie is heavy handed in many parts...it's basically a theatrical production and very stage bound. HOWEVER, Yul and Ingrid are fascinating together and Martita Hunt makes me laugh. I can do without the rest (though I do confess I love Helen Hayes' last line.)*

 

It's a slow watch but at least the love is slowly burning, too. I feel it's Yul's film more so than Ingrid's.

 

*This is my favorite Joan Crawford movie from the 1950s. In fact, my favorite of her post-30s, perhaps, even though I had "issues" with her appearance for the longest time.*

 

I'm surprised by your liking it that much. What's the draw for you?

 

*whew! heavy movie. The Noiristas love it. I think it's fascinating, but not pleasant at all. It really rips into family life and the image of the American male. I'm not sure of all it's trying to say. I'll be interested what others comment on it.*

 

There is definitely a commentary on America and the American male, the really pushing for excellence and doing so without much care. The jealousies that guys sit on, too. And the medication is what brings all of this out of Ed (James Mason). It's in him, though. That "winning at all costs" mentality.

 

*I really enjoyed this, the last of Gary Cooper's "big" movies I had yet to watch. Barbara is a bit over-the-top but the setting and Coop's cool and laconic character made it very enjoyable. I can't wait to see it on restored DVD next year because YouTube's print is very poor.*

 

I just thought the film was aimless. It seemed to be about big personalities, more than anything.

 

 

 

*Is this the Loretta Young movie with Cary Grant? Loretta being "bad" is always amusing to me. I like it though there isn't much to it. Cary is a bit of stick and almost nothing of his legendary persona is yet in evidence.*

 

I couldn't believe how Malcolm (Cary Grant) suddenly dumps his wife for Letty (Loretta Young). It was very strange. I'm finding many of these early-30s films are very strange.

 

*One of Duke's lighter entries, rather long but I find it entertaining. He's in a good mood throughout and you get Lee Marvin (but not for long) before Liberty.*

 

It's an early look at *Donovan's Reef*, really. Well, a more serious look.

 

*Maybe my favorite Bette Davis movie. It's such an overused plot device, but hardly ever done quite so classy and I admit she makes me cry every time she goes up those stairs (with Max Steiner).*

 

Your very favorite Bette film? Wow!

 

Here's my Bette list:

 

1. Hush... Hush, Sweet Charlotte

2. The Man Who Came to Dinner

3. Now, Voyager

4. The Petrified Forest

5. The Letter

6. What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?

7. Dark Victory

8. All About Eve

9. The Bride Came C.O.D.

10. All This, and Heaven Too

11. The Little Foxes

 

 

 

*It's been a while, I remember it being okay, kind of like The Big Trail but on a smaller scale.*

 

You're right on it. But it's *The Big Trail* minus the grand visuals.

 

 

 

*Very good performances by Tone and I love Von Stroheim in most anything. Somehow he makes the most evil men seem human.*

 

Von Stroheim really does have a built-in decency. He's a commanding performer. Everything seems so serious with him, though.

 

 

 

*I admit to being disappointed by this one. I liked Richard Basehart as always but I didn't care for the format (several separate stories coming together). It reminded me of The Bad and the Beautiful in that respect, and because Gloria seemed to play the same character only without the southern charm that made her adorable in Minnelli's film.*

 

Gloria was mostly annoying in the film, but less so than in *The Bad and the Beautiful*. That's a film that gets on my nerves. The ending to *The Good Die Young* is what makes the film for me. I was not prepared for any of that.

 

*Love this movie though the kids can get annoying. Sophia is hilarious. ("A copy. Pity you couldn't afford the original") lol. Love when she and her Pappa go at each other in Italian. "She's your problem now."*

 

Cinzia (Sophia Loren) loved to knock Tom (Cary Grant) down a hundred pegs! It's no wonder you thought she was funny!

 

*One of my favorites. Such an unusual story. I think Olivia is simply perfect as the torn mother. Barry Sullivan is harsh, and Yvette is darling in a role perhaps only she could have played with such delicate balance between childishness and innocence and not seem pitiful. You rather come to want to protect that very innocence which the world views as a "tragic" shortcoming. Even George Hamilton can't ruin it.*

 

Olivia is at her very best. She's really in a spot. Yvette is darling. It is rather funny how Society defines "normalcy" and everything else.

 

*Oh, and Rossano....sigh. "There is that smile, which is not a smile." Only an Italian can say things like that. *

 

You're right about that.

 

*I'm not as big on the non-thin man Loy & Powell films. They all seem to lack something, perhaps because I like Loy looser than she is but Powell certainly is hilarious and shows that Cary Grant was not the only great light comedian.*

 

This is one of the few times I felt William Powell was doing too much. I do like Myrna being stuck up and bothered by him. That always entertains me. Does anyone play such a character any better?

 

*I thought this was a nice little mystery movie, if not as great as I hoped. I get Eddie G's and Claude Raines' "clairvoyants" mixed up. Both actors seemed to play similar characters more than once. Gail was very quiet, as usual.*

 

Yes, Gail was the sweet girl who needed protecting... as usual. She's a sweetheart.

 

*I admit I cry at the end, too. I have seen it many times. Coop really is great at this character, you believe he was Lou Gherig.*

 

I can't believe you'd watch a baseball bio many times.

 

*Another interminably long DeMille epic but I actually like some of the scenes. Paulette seemed to be a favorite of C.B.*

 

There are some good moments in *Unconquered*, but it's so very "DeMille."

 

 

 

*Heston's best performance, in my opinion. A very emtional movie. It starts out seeming a tale about cowboy life, and turns very emotional. The ending is too sad, though. *

 

It's a good ending!

 

*As for The Tarnished Angels, I love Dot's performance and I like Rock Hudson though he's more or less in the background, watching. He's there for us, because we're seeing this world of barnstorming through his eyes.* *It's a movie like The Lusty Men, about an immature and self-absorbed type who's wife is trying to keep it together while wanting more out of her marriage and living in fear of the day her husband may get killed. Then it's like Test Pilot in that you have the partner (Jack Carson) who's also sidelined, emotionally.*

 

Those two films cerainly come to mind with *The Tarnished Angels*. Dorothy Malone is very good in the film. She's wanting to be appreciated but she also loves her husband. Jack Carson is wonderful in the film. It's a role I've never seen him play. He's usually obnoxious. The setting gives the film a very odd feeling.

[FrankGrimes]

*With regards to: How often do we get to see an older woman with a younger man? Well very often if one is watching any Crawford movie made after 1940!*

 

That was funny!

 

*My view of Crawford: Well I really wasn't that in to her. i.e. it took me a while to 'get' Joan. But I now see her magic. She had an 'it' quality and really projects this on the screen regardless of her age (i.e. her looks fading don't dim that quality much). As they say, she was a true movie star.*

 

My feeling with her right now is that I mostly like her, but she's not a favorite. It probably has a lot to do with the films she is in. They are not my kind of films. But she has been very good in them.

[FrankGrimes]

*I'd say that Possessed is the one of those I like least, but they all have something going for them. In fact, if that's the least picture, that's really saying something! She's terrific in it, with Gable her favorite costar.*

 

Gable is in it? That's a good sign.

 

*It's another kind of like Grand Hotel, she's a poor girl contemplating a better life for herself, trying to get ahead. She's got a wonderful speech where she lets loose and tells her stolid boyfriend where to get off, she calls him turnip (!)and tells him that if she were a man, no one would think anything was wrong with her trying to better herself.*

 

Oh, no! It's one of those films?! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I'm definitely a "turnip."

 

< Oh I should also make sure you have the 1931 movie, she was also in a totally different movie with the same title, in 1947. Also good, with Van Heflin.*

 

I didn't like that one. I wanted to.

 

[FrankGrimes]

Hey there, MusicMan -- *I've seen about 25 of your list.*

 

That's impressive!

 

*"Five Graves To Cairo." Good performances and a clever ending.*

 

The ending just did me in. It was too much.

 

*"Houseboat" is fun. As MissG says the kids can be a little annoying but most movie kids are. A nice teaming of Grant and Loren. She is a pleasant surprise here.*

 

I agree, I was pleasantly surprised by Sophia. I didn't expect her to be that charming.

 

*"Love Crazy." It makes a nice double feature with "I Love You Again."*

 

I'll watch *I Love You Again*, next.

 

*"The Maggie." It's not a laugh out loud picture but it makes you smile. Paul Douglas is wonderful as a big shot with a heart of gold and the patience of Job.*

 

A heart of a gold and the patience of Job?! He had to get his tail kicked to get to that point! But at least he gets there.

 

*"Theodora Goes Wild." Lots of fun. I always love Dunne but Douglas doesn't get enough credit, I think, for these wonderful comedy roles. They are a lovely pair and it is a fun story. A favorite.*

 

I look to be in the minority with Melvyn Douglas and comedy. I like it when he's taking his shots versus acting exasperated.

 

*"Will Penny." Tough and tender western. You get an unusual side of Heston and for me the love story isn't a distraction as it is an integral part of finding out about Penny.*

 

"Tough and tender." That's a very good description of the film.

 

*MissG mentioned "The Green Beret." I don't much care for it. I little too exhuberant and I think Wayne is too old to be out in the field. If anything he would be a desk colonel somewhere giving orders over the phone.*

 

He's Duke! You know he's gonna be in the action. It sounds like I liked it a little more than you did. Now that's an upset!

 

*"The War Wagon." Fun fluff. Wayne and Douglas are fun together but there certainly isn't much going on. Pure popcorn.*

 

It's very much a popcorn film. I really enjoyed it. I loved all the jokes. I loved seeing John Wayne as a crook.

[Bronxgirl48]

Am I the only one who thinks Bert gets a raw deal in MILDRED PIERCE? This is a guy who for years had been the victim of Mildred's passive-aggressive behavior -- her pathetic (i.e. frustrated, half-hearted) aspirational strivings made him feel less like a man (hence, his being drawn to the "common" Mrs. Biederhoff for some tea and sympathy, nothing more in my opinion) "That's right, Mildred, throw it up to me that I can't support my family" -- "Bert, I don't say half as much as some women would with bills staring them in the face". This last comment is supposed to make us believe that Mildred is some noble, long-suffering housewife trying to keep body and soul together for her family, when in reality, don't you think she's the one tearing it apart by her insistance on "bettering" the kids, at the expense of her marriage? (piano lessons, fancy dresses, etc., everything she didn't have growing up)

[rohanaka]

Good evening, Ma Stone

 

 

 

Howdy there, sonny, boy. How goes the battle against all those "GERM-ans". ha. I hope you are feeling much better by now.

 

 

 

You really feel the wife and son in this one. And yet you do understand what is happening to the father isn't really his fault. It's a tough, tough spot

 

 

 

I hope I can come across it sometime. I will be interested to see how it all plays out. I bet Mason does a stand out job. But I do I tend to be pretty "black and white' when it comes to subjects like this though. So I am getting a bit worried already.. ha. While I am not without sympathy for anyone caught up in that sort of tragic life.. and I also do think there are times when it possibly could be viewed as a "no fault" situation for some.. there is only so much wiggle room for that "no fault" concept (in my mind anyway) But then too.. I do confess.. I don't presume to have all the answers and that subject can be a tough one to wrap my mind around (in terms of who is accountable for what sort of behaviors) There are no easy answers, I am sure.

 

 

 

Oh, that's another film where your motherly view of life would be brought to the fore. And for that reason, you'd really enjoy the film. I think the setting and the characters aren't to your liking, including George Hamilton, but what the film is all about is something you'd appreciate

 

 

 

I read a synopsis of it and I think it sounds like a very different sort of "love" story.. and I am not even talking necessarily about "romance" so much as just what sorts of choices a parent might have to make (out of love) on behalf of their mentally challenged child in order to help them live as full a life as possible. (and how ones thinking on what that might look like can be changed.. depending on the situations that arise as the child gets older) It does sound like an interesting story. (but I bet you are right in that the setting and characters may not be very "me" ha)

 

 

 

And I do feel Mildred really did play a major role in Veda's views on life, but I also agree with CineMaven, in that Veda had something inside of her even before Mildred started to bring it to the forefront. So the combination of the two really did play into Veda's becoming "Veda." I have a similar situation starting to brew in my family. Today, it's just a mother and a child. Well, children grow up and become adults. What kind of view on life is this child going to have? How will this effect their relationships with guys? It's worrisome

 

 

 

It is TERRIFYING if you think about it. (and I don't say that lightly to scare you) All children are molded and shaped by the childhood they lead,, and likely shaped the MOST by the parenting they receive. And while there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule.. and each person must choose for himself how they wish to behave (ultimately) I think in general.. we do tend to be who our parents raise us to be (for good or for bad) in the end.

 

 

 

I think we all have a selfish side.. and I do think that there are certain people who are naturally going to be " me" oriented.. and sometimes that can be just annoying.. or perhaps irritating. But for some (like Veda) it can take on a life of its own. So maybe there iS something to the whole "Veda was born that way" philosphy. But I still think it was because her mother led her to believe she needed "more" and "better things" in life that she grew up to desire them above all else. I think that when a person's self esteem takes on an all consuming and driving precence in family.. to the point that ALL things revolve around that one person and are for one person.. and about that ONE person all the time.. oh me... a kid can get "USED to it.. and then start to long for it.. and eventually come to expect it to the point that the longer it goes on unchecked.. the more sinister it can become as the child begins to believe it really IS all about "him" (or her, as the case may be). And that is pretty much how Mildred raised Veda. How much fuel you give a fire will determine how long, how bright, and how hot it will burn. And as far as Veda was concerned.. Mildred kept the fire pretty well stoked.. to the point it more or less burned down the whole house, in the end.

 

 

 

Ha.. and YET.. I will talk from the OTHER side of the coin and say that no matter WHAT we do.. no matter WHO our parents are.. and HOW we were raised.. we make our own choices and we cannot blame our folks for the evil we choose to commit on our own.. no matter HOW well groomed we might have been to grow up that way. We still, somewhere along the line, will be the people we choose for ourselves and we'll do whatever it is we end up doing of our own accord. (ha.. how is THAT for trying to have it both ways)

 

 

 

 

Mad Hat Molo says:

 

 

 

Mildred's attitude about life and particularly her views on men are very interesting. We don't know a lot about the backstory between her and Bert, but it's obvious she has soured on men in general. She sees them as obstacles in some ways, as useful tools in other ways. Her marriage to Monte is a glaring example of that. It was a means to an end and she sweeps the broader repercussions out of her mind. It's all for Veda

 

 

 

I am sure you are right in that she likely had been let down by men (her husband for example, for certain) and she likley did use them as tools.. or see them as obstacles too, for that matter. But you are right too.. in that for all her hard work.. no matter what she did.. It was ALL for Veda.. everything.. all the time.. no matter what ELSE might be going on.. it was all for Veda.

 

 

 

So Mildred knows, or at least think she knows, that to make it in this world you have to look out for yourself. You have to be selfish. So it's natural to pass that line of thinking on to Veda. Now Mildred has almost given up on any personal happiness

 

 

 

I think she is the "poster child" for codependent parenting. ha. She only had happiness if her child did. Her only reason for happiness was what made Veda happy.

 

 

 

Everything she does focuses on Veda. It drives her whole life. Mildred lost herself at some point, and I think it's clear she holds a grudge, but now she lives for Veda

 

 

 

I think you have it right.. that she did lose herself. It is an easy trap to fall into for a mom or dad to want make their child so huge a part of their life that everything else fades away. But I think Mildred went ALL the way w/ that sort of mindset almost to the point of insanity.. both hers and Veda's too.

 

 

 

We are really picking up these characters in the middle of the story. Veda is already who she is. Mildred too, and Bert and Mildred have already soured before we get started. We get some good hints, a bit of insight, in the way they all interact and by the comments they make. There is still a lot we have to fill in. That's the fun part in a lot of ways

 

 

 

It would have been interesting to see Mildred as a child.. and how SHE got to where she did..and what that led to for Veda, to be sure.

 

I probably don't get as riled up at Mildred as I should. I feel sorry for her. She is making the wrong decisions but she isn't doing it on purpose, of course. I know that really is no excuse but I guess I just have some sympathy for the severely but sincerely wrongheaded

 

 

 

I do agree that there is a level of sympathy for Mildred that seems right. I know that it can sometimes be a danger when the finger pointing starts.. to make it sound like I don't feel sorry for her.. but I do, in some ways.

 

 

 

And yet still she gets my goat, all at the same time to the point I just want to shake her. .ha.

 

 

 

I guess that just means I can feel sorry for someone and still be utterly disgusted by them all at the same time. (just think of me an emotional multi-tasker that way, I guess, ha)

[FrankGrimes]

Hola, Grahame's Guy -- *Kyser was a popular band leader and he also had a unique, kind of goofy personality. John Barrymore's final film, Playmates was a Kay Kyser film. Plus with Kyser you always get Ish Kabibble too! *

 

You get what-what? Kay's a guy? I'm all lost!

 

*I loved our Harvey discussion! *

 

 

So did I. It was quite involved. And my appreciation for the film took a major step forward because of it all, too.

 

 

*I do enjoy watching the lighter stuff more. I (almost) always watch my my movies before going to sleep these days so I often look for stuff I can just enjoy and not have to think too much about. Occasionally I'll be in the mood for something more serious though.*

 

 

And I'm completely the opposite. I'm seeking to watch movies I've yet to see. I rarely re-watch films, at this point. Someday...

 

 

*I have always enjoyed watching all kinds of movies though. I'm just getting more lazy. *

 

 

That made me laugh! You gotta love such lazy honesty. I know I appreciate it.

 

 

*I think that's true. Often you give me new insight on a film that I haven't seen in ages. A lot of times your comments will make me go back and watch a film and I get a fresh and maybe even a different perspective on it. That is a very good thing and I think your ongoing exploration of films has sparked a lot of great discussions around here.*

 

 

Thank you. And that's how it is for me with everyone here. I'll have a take on a film or a character or a scene and then someone writes something that never occurred to me or comes at it from a different point of view. That gets me to thinking.

 

 

*Now does it surprise you that I watched a John Wayne film? He's in my top five.*

 

 

It does surprise me. I had no idea you liked him that much.

 

 

*I have seen a lot of his early Westerns ( I bought one of those cheap dvd sets) and stuff like Babyface of course. Starting with Stagecoach and what followed, I've seen over forty of his films. I don't tend to write about him much though.*

 

 

I'm stunned! I don't see you as a westerns fan. Hey, I'm learning some new things.

 

 

*I did write about Stagecoach, The Searchers and the Calvary Trilogy in one of Lynn's "Summer School" threads. I also participated in the discussions of Hondo and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence in Ro's Western thread. I know we all discussed Angel and the Badman too. I can't remember which thread that was in though. So I do talk about his work on occasion.*

 

 

I guess since it's been so long ago with those discussions that I have completely forgotten about all that was said. Well, other than Miss G's love for Ranse.

 

 

*In Old Oklahoma was one I hadn't seen before, mainly because it's a hard one to track down. I'd rate it enjoyable but pretty average for Wayne. There are some biggies I haven't seen too. Namely The Quiet Man. I'll get to it eventually! *

 

 

And you got to it! Way to go! I've yet to see *In Old Oklahoma*. I'm watching John Wayne's films from the end to the beginning. I've got four films to watch before I'm through the 60s and 70s. Those are *Brannigan*, *The Greatest Story Ever Told*, *How the West Was Won*, and *The Longest Day*. Some really short films.

 

 

*I would agree with that. I did give A Hole in the Head another look the other night. Things are much more clear now! *

 

 

Wow! You have made some commitments!

 

 

*In this case my general impression from what I remember is fairly accurate. I thought Ally was only annoying in the first half of the film and then he was fine. The second half is better than the first half too in my opinion.*

 

 

For me, it's a nice mix. The first half features Shirl (Carolyn Jones) and I liked seeing how Tony (Frank Sinatra) was struggling with that. The second half is more about Tony and his falling apart, so the emotional tug is stronger. I found the track scenes with Keenan Wynn to be distracting.

 

 

HOLE IN THE HEAD SPOILERS!!!

 

 

*The big change for me was my take on Shirl. I liked her much better this time and I did feel bad for her at the end when she could see that she was losing Tony, or that Tony was failing her. He did turn out to be a kiwi after all as far as she was concerned.*

 

 

Yes, Tony's a "kiwi." So am I!

 

 

*She was honest about her feelings and while I don't agree with her views really, I had to appreciate that she was upfront about it. She also knew when to get out.*

 

 

She really was upfront about her feelings, as damaging as I feel they ultimately are. And her "death" scene really did get to me. I was bothered by her shutting out Ally (Eddie Hodges), but I still felt for her, too. It was an interesting mix of emotions.

 

 

*I didn't remember much about Eleanor Parker's Eloise at all. She really didn't have a lot to do, but I liked the scene with her and Tony in her apartment.*

 

 

I agree. She's mostly in the background. But I liked her character. I liked how lost she was, herself.

 

 

*Two scenes I did remember well were the ones at the party and then later at the dog track with Jerry (Keenan Wynn). That was pretty tough on Tony and he finally realized he wasn't kidding anybody. As Jerry says: Never try to promote a promoter.*

 

 

That's a great line. And how true it is. Such a cold world.

 

 

*Mario's reaction, basically "nobody can call you a bum but me" and "you're not a bum" after calling him that a million times, well, that was what made Mario sympathetic to me. He throws words out of his mouth but the underlying feeling for his brother remains strong.*

 

 

I agree. He just wants his brother to be like him, for he sees himself as the picture of an upstanding man. But, Mario doesn't see his own faults, for they are not faults to him. At least he's not a "bum."

 

 

*He wasn't even that worried about Ally really, that was mainly Sophie's (Thelma Ritter) concern. He was always concerned about Tony and that showed at the end when they are leaving and he says nobody's concerned about his brother and whether he will be okay.*

 

 

And I think Sophie has her own selfish reasons for caring about Ally. I feel Ally would make her life more rewarding, giving her another child to focus all of her energy towards.

 

 

*I have to ask what you thought of the ending with Mario heading off to the beach!*

 

 

I'd have to say it was unbelievable, but sweet.

 

 

*True. Do you think Tony would have run off with Shirl even if Ally hadn't been in the picture?*

 

 

I doubt it. I think he liked running the hotel. He wasn't one just to bum around. He wants to be something.

 

 

*It was a great suggestion Miss G.! I really enjoyed seeing this one again. I wouldn't have thought to give this another look if it wasn't for you two.*

 

 

She's a great little guide. So long as you like being slapped and kicked along the way.

 

 

*It certainly did for me. Harry was ruthless in his desperation. I just didn't like him, even when he tried to make some of it right at the end.*

 

 

"Desperate" is the perfect word for Harry Fabian. He always feels as if he's cornered by the world.

 

 

*I didn't get cable until I was a senior in high school. One of the things that both CineMaven and I have discussed about watching those late movies when we were young was that we did it on the sly. Neither of us were supposed to be up that late.*

 

 

I never really thought about doing that. The only thing I did was listen to sports in my room when I should have been asleep. I was a sports guy from a very early age. It was my passion, just as movies were the passion of many here. If I were to sneak to watch any movies it would have been dirty ones on HBO and Prism.

 

 

*I was born an insomniac. I was sneaking downstairs at night when I was pretty young. I got caught a few times too, but it was worth it. *

 

 

How funny!

 

 

*I think I saw a Greer film on your most recent list. The black gloved one must be wearing you down! *

 

 

Who? Talk about invisible!

[FrankGrimes]

*Well, looking at your list I see you have been mixing it up again, quite a bit, ha. That seems to be you all over lately, Mr. Grey. I like that you are not sticking w/ one type of movie only but just sort of expanding your horizons.*

 

That's because this group of folks is all over the place! You had earlier asked me to rank all of the films I watched in 2012. That would be rather daunting, even for me. I ended up watching 355. Here's my top 25 for the year (And the Oscar goes to... ):

 

1. Deadline at Dawn

2. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn

3. Laugh, Clown, Laugh

4. I Know Where I'm Going!

5. Gunga Din

6. Picnic at Hanging Rock

7. Remember the Night

8. The Naked City

9. Love on a Pillow

10. Dear Heart

11. He Walked by Night

12. The River

13. None But the Lonely Heart

14. Black Narcissus

15. The Breaking Point

16. Witness for the Prosecution

17. Ace in the Hole

18. Warlock

19. A Night in Casablanca

20. The Passionate Friends

21. A Streetcar Named Desire

22. The Big Steal

23. The Roaring Twenties

24. Bitter Victory

25. Godzilla

 

*The Comancheros*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I have not seen this one all the way through.. not sure WHY.. but I do know I saw a portion of it a while back. Will have to check it out some day.*

 

 

It's mostly a fun film. I think you would be all right with it, but it wouldn't be a favorite for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Dark Victory*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I can't say this is my most fave movie ever.. but there are things about it that I like a lot. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on it.*

 

 

What do you like about it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Houseboat*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Not a stand out Cary role, but good enough for a smile. (I bet you liked Sophia more, ha)*

 

 

Yes, I liked Sophia the most in the film. I also liked Cary, though. It's almost automatic that I'll like Cary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Little Women (1933*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Of all the movies on this latest list.. THIS one would rank highest for me.. ha.. and I bet it is the POLAR OPPOSITE for you. ha.*

 

 

Ding, ding, ding!

 

 

*(I am shocked.. SHOCKED to hear that you even watched it. ha)*

 

 

You had it as one of your all-time favorites!

 

 

*It is a lot like Dickens though in that I actually think I just like the story most of all.. and not necessarily THIS telling of it.*

 

 

I agree with you. The story does have a Dickensian feel to it, just not as colorful. The professor is certainly the most Dickensian of them all.

 

 

*I DO like both Hepburn's and Allison's performances as Jo.. to be honest I think Kate gets my vote..but it is a close one. But HANDS down I prefer Margaret Obrien as Beth and Elizabeth Taylor as Amy.. pretty much everyone else you could mix or match for me... oh wait.. no.. I have to have my sweet Edna May as Aunt March too. ha. But I prefer C. Aubrey Smith as Mr Laurance. HA... I think if I could mix up both casts between the 33 version and the 49 version and replace some of the actors from one with some of the actors with the other.. ha. I would my the COMPLETE favorite version ha. But to be honest.. its the story.. so I will watch it either way and be happy.*

 

 

It would be more difficult to get me to watch the later version.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*The War Wagon*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Have NOT seen it.. not sure why.. but for some reason some of these later Dukes and I just dont' seem to connect. I may give it a try sometime. You'll have to tell me what you think of it.*

 

 

Well, a lot may depend on how you feel about Kirk Douglas. It's a "buddy" flick with Duke and Kirk. I clearly like it more than the group.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Will Penny*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Not a huge fave.. but still a good movie overall. (I like the part where she tries to get him to sing Christmas songs w/ them.. ha.. but OH me it is hard on the ears. ha. Good thing Heston did not to quit his DAY job for a singing career. ha)*

 

 

Why isn't it a huge favorite for you?

 

 

[fxreyman]

> I'm watching John Wayne's films from the end to the beginning. I've got four films to watch before I'm through the 60s and 70s. Those are Brannigan, The Greatest Story Ever Told, How the West Was Won, and The Longest Day. Some really short films.

 

Don't waste your time on The Greatest Story Ever Told. Should have been called the Greatest Collection of Hollywood Stars ever put on film. Same with the Longest Day as far as sheer amount of Hollywood and foreign superstars on film.

 

I hope you don't think that his appearances in The Greatest Story Ever Told, HTWWW, are roles you are really going to want to sit through to see his wonderful performances? Greatest Story he is in maybe less than two minutes of a 165-plus minute long film. HTWWW he is in just the Civil War sequence and that sequence is the shortest of the whole film. He has maybe two minutes of footage.

 

Longest Day he was in for just under 15 minutes. Although of all of the representations of the D-Day Invasion, this film was the best one to show the invasion from all sides. He got $250,000 for his role in The Longest Day.

[FrankGrimes]

Ciao, FXReyman -- *Don't waste your time on The Greatest Story Ever Told. Should have been called the Greatest Collection of Hollywood Stars ever put on film.*

 

I will say that I'm dreading it, but I'll probably watch it since I try to be a completist. TCM will be airing it in March, I believe.

 

*I hope you don't think that his appearances in The Greatest Story Ever Told, HTWWW, are roles you are really going to want to sit through to see his wonderful performances?*

 

No, not at all. I understand what his contribution to each is.

 

*Greatest Story he is in maybe less than two minutes of a 165-plus minute long film. HTWWW he is in just the Civil War sequence and that sequence is the shortest of the whole film. He has maybe two minutes of footage. Longest Day he was in for just under 15 minutes. Although of all of the representations of the D-Day Invasion, this film was the best one to show the invasion from all sides. He got $250,000 for his role in The Longest Day.*

 

I'm looking forward to watching *The Longest Day*. It's actually the next film of John Wayne's that I will be watching. I'm also looking forward to *How the West Was Won*. I need to get the Blu-ray first, though.