The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread

[FrankGrimes]

Hola, Little Red Buick! -- *May I butt in and ask which Bette films you've seen?*

 

You're not butting in! I'm trying to catch up on some of my replies. It's just been a screwy time for me.

 

 

Here's what I've seen of Bette:

 

1. Hush... Hush, Sweet Charlotte

2. The Man Who Came to Dinner

3. Now, Voyager

4. The Petrified Forest

5. The Letter

6. What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?

7. Dark Victory

8. All About Eve

9. The Bride Came C.O.D.

10. All This, and Heaven Too

11. The Little Foxes

 

 

*Also, what Renoir you are going to watch?*

 

 

I have *The Rules of the Game* and will soon have *Grand Illusion*. I also have the Criterion collection with *Elena and Her Men*, *The Golden Coach*, and *French Cancan*. And I'm eventually going to get this collection:

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Collectors-Whirlpool-Charleston-Marseillaise-Experiment/dp/B000N2HBIO/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1357931585&sr=1-1&keywords=jean+renoir

 

 

*Also I'd like to leave a recommendation for King Solomon's Mines. And I don't even like Stewart Granger but it's a pip of a movie.*

 

 

Terrific! My feeling about Stewart is starting to change some. I found him annoying, at first. Mainly in *Green Fire*. He's been more pleasing to me, of late. I liked him in *Salome*.

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}

> Light. That's it. It was light. Sad but light...airy. Not a lot of sturm und drang. Or heaviness of set design.

 

Exactly. I'm glad you understood me, I had a hard time describing it.

 

> Fragility...excellent description. And wow, I hadn't thought of it as a bit of a mystery and it was, in the beginning ( What's going on? ) To me the movie also played out like Suspense - different people knowing things others did not know. And we, the audience, are privy to it all.

 

Yes, it actually brings us in on the secrets. I never thought of that aspect of it, I fall right into the emotion so much I didn't notice. I love that you pointed it out, clever girl.

 

> I loved watching her. She played the role like Heifetz played his violin. She definitively delineated denial, grief and acceptance seamlessly. Even her body language was different as Judith. You know Bette; she can sling those hips with that gait of hers and punctuate.each.word. with that clipped upper upper class accent of hers. Here she's just an American girl. A rich one but American.

 

That's perfect! She was delicate and plain or maybe I should say plaintive, like a violin. Compare this to her more bombastic performance in Elizabeth and Essex, and then wonder that they were made pretty much at the same time, along with Juarez and The Old Maid. WOW!

 

 

> I really like the examination scene too. I felt the thrust and parry between them as though I was watching a fencing or tennis match. Brent had a good steady hand here. He was like the calm eye in the center of the hurricane that swirled around the room. Brent's stolidness is used to advantage here. He needs to be the steady hand to calm down Bette's coltishness. She was ready to bolt at the drop of a hat. She wanted his help desperately but was too scared to ask.

 

That's exactly right, the colt metaphor is so apt. Brent is so very good here at 'gentling' her. He's able to at once take her mind off of it, and also to ease her fears.

 

> Color me shallow too b'cuz her outfits were great ( love the riding habit ); but I did think she flit from clubbing to drinking too much to a blase attitude ( friends were sore at her ) to her horse trainer. I felt and related to her wanting to feel; To Feel Alive.

 

It's a deceptively simple plot, because there is so much depth in it, and I think after all these years I hesitated to watch thinking it might be trite, or silly. But as you say, you can literally feel what she feels, that desperate will to live, but not just in an ordinary dull way, but to feel every bit of life and squeeze it dry.

 

> What Bette Davis films do you like Jax*x*on? This would be in the top five of my favorites of hers.

 

 

That's hard because I have to break it into two groups - performances and movies.

 

Favorite Performances:

 

1. Dark Victory

2. Now Voyager

3. All About Eve

4. Elizabeth and Essex

5. The Catered Affair

6. The Little Foxes

7. Dead Ringer

 

I left The Letter off the list because it's not a favorite for me, however, there is no denying that it's a GREAT performance.

 

Favorite Movies:

 

1, Dark Victory

2. Now Voyager

3. All About Eve

4. The Great Lie

5. Dangerous

6. Marked Woman

7. Elizabeth and Essex

8. Dead Ringer

 

 

> Ahhh yes. Bogie. I won't sue you. But I might send you a subpoena. Bette and Bogie are cut from the same fiery cloth. I liked the emotion of the scene. She did "Marked Woman" "The Petrified Forest" with Bogie, but I'd have liked to see them on equal cinematic footing and really go toe-to-toe at it, when they both had the same measure of stardom. He was still two years away from his real break-out role.

 

I knew they did those films, but they never really get a full scene together, except here in Dark Victory. I'd almost kill to go back in time and make the studio pair them up. Two pains in the ****, but what a movie it might make!

 

> The accent doesn't work for me, and I tried. ( Put down that pitchfork! ) Look, I still can't get used to Stanwyck's wig in *"Double Indemnity."*

No pitchfork here, I understand. The scene just hit me right between the eyes when I saw it, and I loved it, accent and all. I still say it's pretty good as movie accents go.

 

 

> You really *do* have a point there and that might very well be my issue. I totally get the point of the scene, and the class difference, and Judith wanting to feel alive. ( D'ya think the scene would have played differently if she had pursued him+?+ ) "Bogie can't do Irish": The learned stereotypical conventional wisdom, ey? That's one of the traps in liking classic films; not seeing a star's or director's films in chronological order. We come in to their earlier films with preconceived opinions formed after seeing their later work first. "Harlow was mis-cast in 'Platinum Blonde'." Really? She was? I totally believed she was to the manor born. I am probably guilty of the Monday morning quarterbacking, 20/20 hindsight thing where Bogie was concerned in "Dark Victory." I will have to work on that. There are other things in it for me to concentrate on.

 

I like Platinum Blonde too and never thought of Harlow as miscast. I think as I grow older, I see things more for themselves, and there is not so much judgment on my part.

 

 

> I hadn't seen "Dark Victory" in the longest time myself. I was touched and moved by Judith's story. And I think it's one of the finest performances Bette Davis gave. You're right. You can't take your eyes off her. Or Bogie as Queeg. Now where are those strawberries?

 

I've locked them up.

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> You're not butting in! I'm trying to catch up on some of my replies. It's just been a screwy time for me.

 

 

me too, I've been bad lately.

 

 

> Here's what I've seen of Bette:

>

>

> 1. Hush... Hush, Sweet Charlotte

> 2. The Man Who Came to Dinner

> 3. Now, Voyager

> 4. The Petrified Forest

> 5. The Letter

> 6. What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?

> 7. Dark Victory

> 8. All About Eve

> 9. The Bride Came C.O.D.

> 10. All This, and Heaven Too

> 11. The Little Foxes

 

 

Wow, that's a great list, you really have hit most of Bette's best films. Here are a few of my favorites of the ones that you haven't seen:

 

Marked Woman

Dangerous

20,000 Years in Sing Sing

3 on a Match

The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex

The Great Lie

Deception

The Catered Affair

Dead Ringer

 

> *Also, what Renoir you are going to watch?*

>

>

> I have *The Rules of the Game* and will soon have *Grand Illusion*. I also have the Criterion collection with *Elena and Her Men*, *The Golden Coach*, and *French Cancan*. And I'm eventually going to get this collection:

 

Wow, you aren't kidding! You are diving into Renoir's river, big time..

 

> *Also I'd like to leave a recommendation for King Solomon's Mines. And I don't even like Stewart Granger but it's a pip of a movie.*

 

 

> Terrific! My feeling about Stewart is starting to change some. I found him annoying, at first. Mainly in *Green Fire*. He's been more pleasing to me, of late. I liked him in *Salome*.

 

I guess I am loosening up with him too, he's still not a fave, but he's been pretty good all along, he's just a bit too blithe for me. Have you seen the one with Jean Simmons? Footsteps in the Fog? I liked it a lot.

[FrankGrimes]

*me too, I've been bad lately.*

 

You have real excuses! I'm afraid I'm being too lazy. And I want to chat, too.

 

*Wow, that's a great list, you really have hit most of Bette's best films.*

 

 

I'm surprised that's the case. I guess I just hit the right ones or was led to the right ones. She had such a long career, I would have thought I missed a couple "biggies."

 

 

*Here are a few of my favorites of the ones that you haven't seen:*

 

 

*Marked Woman*

*Dangerous*

*20,000 Years in Sing Sing*

*3 on a Match*

*The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex*

*The Great Lie*

*Deception*

*The Catered Affair*

*Dead Ringer*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you! I will definitely look to watch these. Bette is actually an actress I have been recording with TCM. I have 55 of her films.

 

 

*Wow, you aren't kidding! You are diving into Renoir's river, big time..*

 

 

Very good! I'm also looking to get *Boudu Saved from Drowning* this year. I need a Criterion sale at Barnes & Noble to do that. I have *The Southerner* and *Diary of a Chambermaid* recorded.

 

 

I have been very impressed by Jean Renoir in what I've seen of his work. He could end up being one of my all-time favorites. That will depend on *The Rules of the Game* and *Grand Illusion*, probably. I really like *The Woman on the Beach*, *The River*, and *This Land Is Mine* (another winning suggestion by you). *La Bete Humaine* actually fell a little short with me. I was very surprised by that. I'm most looking forward to watching *Elena and Her Men* because of Ingrid. I really go for Ingrid.

 

 

*I guess I am loosening up with him too, he's still not a fave, but he's been pretty good all along, he's just a bit too blithe for me.*

 

 

"Blithe" is a perfect word for Granger! That's excellent. I found him to be too much of a carefree jerk in *Green Fire*, and that pushed me away. Then I saw *Moonfleet* and I saw the same man but with a different twist. Fritz Lang really used his style to great benefit. Granger is perfect for such a character. In *Salome*, he's once again very "Stewart Granger," but I found him to be warmer. So either I'm growing to like his style or I'm seeing his style used in better ways. I'm not sure.

 

 

*Have you seen the one with Jean Simmons? Footsteps in the Fog? I liked it a lot.*

 

 

No, I haven't. That sounds like an intriguring suggestion. I like Jean. I'll watch it in the next group. I'm already up to 24 films in that group, so I really need to get to talking.

[JackFavell]

Rules of the Game was very confusing for me when I first watched. I am due to watch it over again, now that there are good copies of it out there, and also since I have a bigger screen to watch it on. It was hard to tell what was going on because much of it is in long shot and I couldn't tell the characters apart.

 

I haven't seen Salome, I guess I need to add it to MY list.

 

I wasn't too thrilled with La Bete Humaine either, but I thought it was just me. I do like Human Desire and it kind of spoiled me for the other.

 

I am really curious to read what you think of Grande Illusion.

 

Footsteps in the Fog is very dark, I think you'll like it.

 

And we haven't talked over all of these movies yet!

[MissGoddess]

> And that's how I usually see Ingrid. She's one to go to pieces. She's very outward. Yul is very inward.

>

 

He almost always seethes with barely repressed (but strong) emotions. I love it. His eyes are very cinematic. His most famous role, *The King and I*, is mostly outward while Deborah is the cool, frosty one.

 

>

> "All dried up to boiling over." That's good! Joan is very good at showing these emotions, too. I definitely liked her hesitancy. She was really tough on Burt (Cliff Robertson) at the start, trying to push him away as hard as possible.

>

 

The tough part is her trade-mark. A mask hiding vulnerability underneath. A lot of her 50s roles are like that. *Woman on the Beach*, *The Diary of Esther Costello*, et al.

 

> I'm pretty sure he'd love to make a film about today's society. It's truly a horror flick. A dying person on the side of the road will be filmed by a cell phone and then uploaded to be "Liked" more so than helped. It's amazing how if it's "you," help is expected and demanded. If it's not "you," it doesn't register a blip. *2001: A Space Odyssey* is now a reality.

>

 

So is every Biblical, Orwellian, Serlingian prediction. Even Will Rogers once said that soon humans would only need one finger because all they'd do in life was push buttons!

 

> The one with Deborah Kerr?

>

 

Yes, it's a great adventure film and you'll really like Deborah.

 

> I've seen all of Bette's best?

>

 

Maybe, though many consider *Of Human Bondage* one of her best and her Elizabethan portrayals, but they bore me. *Phone Call From a Stranger* is okay, kind of like a television show but there are some moments. Her part is just in one "vignette" of several.

 

> Those I have not seen. *Marked Woman* seems like a good starting point.

>

>

 

Jackie also mentioned *3 on a Match*, which I thought wasn't bad. She's a good girl in *20,000 Years in Sing Sing* and you get Tracy, too.

 

> Well, I broke down and ordered a used copy of *Grand Illusion*. I've got a lot of Jean Renoir to watch, coming up.

>

>

 

Do you ever! You'll be way ahead of me. Tag Gallagher loves *The Golden Coach* and *French CanCan*. He did a video essay for *CanCan*, I think. I haven't seen it, though, only TGC. The stories are similar.

 

 

> But how he does it is stunning! I haven't seen such "knives in the back"!

>

 

If Larry's in the room with you, hide all knives, blunt instruments and lock all windows.

 

> Rock almost seems surreal. He's idyllic yet this makes him seem cold, like a statue. I do like it when he's playing the obnoxious or misguided male in comedies.

>

 

Maybe because he was being so calculatingly molded into a matinee idol. It wasn't until the Doris comedies and *Giant* that he began to let loose a bit.

 

By the way, I agree that Ann Sothern is the best part of *The Torrid Zone* and it's one of her best roles. I like her playing that kind of character, very sassy and sarcastic.

 

*O. Henry's Full House* isn't a favorite of mine, though "The Last Leaf* I agree is the best of the bunch. I also disliked "The Ransom of Red Chief". It felt like *Monkey Business* all over again.

 

Now you've seen *Houseboat*, you must see *It Started in Naples*, which I recently re-watched and now it has to be on my favorite comedies list. It gets better and funnier each time I watch it.

[CineMaven]

*I like Platinum Blonde too and never thought of Harlow as miscast. I think as I grow older, I see things more for themselves, and there is not so much judgment on my part.*

 

I'm going to learn to be like that if it kills me.

 

** * * **

 

I hadn't seen "Dark Victory" in the longest time myself. I was touched and moved by Judith's story. And I think it's one of the finest performances Bette Davis gave. You're right. You can't take your eyes off her. Or Bogie as Queeg. Now where are those strawberries?

 

 

*I've locked them up.*

 

 

CAPTAIN!!! :0

[FrankGrimes]

*Rules of the Game was very confusing for me when I first watched. I am due to watch it over again, now that there are good copies of it out there, and also since I have a bigger screen to watch it on. It was hard to tell what was going on because much of it is in long shot and I couldn't tell the characters apart.*

 

I believe Miss G is lukewarm on the film, as well. I really don't know what to expect. I know of its standing in the critical world, that's about it.

 

*I haven't seen Salome, I guess I need to add it to MY list. *

 

No, I don't think you need to seek that one out. It seems to be a softened form of Oscar Wilde's play. The film really lacks depth.

 

*I wasn't too thrilled with La Bete Humaine either, but I thought it was just me. I do like Human Desire and it kind of spoiled me for the other.*

 

That surprises me, actually. I would have thought you'd eat up *La Bete Humaine* because of its feel. The wonderful, realistic setting with the train and the yard is where I thought you'd fall for the film. I did like that, but the story and characters didn't attract me as much as those in *Human Desire*. For this reason, I also prefer *Human Desire*.

 

*I am really curious to read what you think of Grande Illusion.*

 

Do you like it?

 

*Footsteps in the Fog is very dark, I think you'll like it.*

 

Oh, it is? Fantastic! Now I'm really looking forward to seeing it. Jean Simmons is an actress that just finds a way to reel me in.

 

*And we haven't talked over all of these movies yet!*

 

Keep talking!

[FrankGrimes]

 

How do, Quiet Gal -- *GOOD gravy, man. That's almost a movie a day. ha. I like how you set yourself a goal and went for it. Wowsa.*

 

 

If you include the films I re-watched, I did end up watching more than a film a day. Oh, my.

 

*But oh me.. what's THIS I see.. the big green guy sliding in at 25????????????????????????? Ok.. I quit. ha. I have NO idea how to peg you now and forever more. ha. You are quite the man of mystery. ha. I never would have supspected you would have rated himTHAT high on a list of 355 other movies. wowsa.*

 

I really enjoyed *Godzilla*. I love the "silence" of the film. It adds so much to the film.

 

I do have a soft spot for some sci-fi flicks, even though it's not a genre I go crazy for.

 

*Ok so.. now that you have listed your top 25.. I have to ask.. (because inquiring minds wanna know.. ha) what makes you rate the TOP FIVE the way you did. I mean.. lets face it... you watched a LOT of movies this past year. Some were terrific choices.. and some likely less terrific ones... ha. So what is it about these five movies that edges them out over the other 350 for you?? I guess I am saying.. what made THESE five films stand out so much more than the others. (and where would you put these same films on your list of overall favorites ever??) ha.*

 

 

*Deadline at Dawn* is a darn-near perfect film. It's a romantic film noir, which I love. I love the idea of two different people falling in love and doing so over an evening. I love the "secret" in the film. It's a great twist, one that makes the film all the more romantic. I also find the film to be very suspenseful.

 

 

*A Tree Grows in Brooklyn* is one of the most loving films I have seen. To watch the mixing of love and tragedy is very moving. Being a dreamer, I liked seeing the Dreamer in this one. I like how his wife and daughter loved him despite of himself. I cried a few times while watching it.

 

 

*Laugh, Clown, Laugh* is so very "Lon Chaney," which makes it so very good. Lon often plays characters I can associate with. He's the guy who loves a woman who just doesn't love him back. He's left to drown in his own love. The ending to this particular film is sensational.

 

 

*I Know Where I'm Going!* is one of the best films I have seen about the meaning of love and marriage. It's very much like *The Quiet Man*. Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger are becoming great favorites of mine. They are one of the greatest at establishing mood and feel. It has been an important "character" in the films I have seen of theirs. It slowly overtakes you. *I Know Where I'm Going!* is brimming with atmosphere. Even the supporting cast is really there for atmosphere. Such a sensual film.

 

 

*Gunga Din* is one of the best "action" films from the classic era. It actually has a modern feel to it because of the action and how the leads interact with each other. It's such a fun film.

 

*And ps.. ha.. YES.. I know I am asking a lot.. who do I think I am.. the NON-list maker asking such a question as that. ha But I am just so impressed at how you were able to even WATCH that many films.. let alone pick out 25 faves in order.. and I KNOW you have a list of all time faves.. so I just was curious how they all mix together for you. ha. (did I mention inquiring minds wanna know???) *

 

I do have a list of all the films I have seen from each decade. And, yes, they are ranked in order. What I don't have is a master list of all the films I have seen ranked in order. I have about a top 400 that combines the decades prior to the 70s.

 

*Godzilla*, which ranked 25th out of the 355 films I watched last year, is # 299 on my overall classic film list. So I watched 25 of my top 299 films last year.

 

*Oh the repentance angle, for sure. I like the way she did not wallow and stay down when she learned of her fate. She went out well.. a much better person than she likely would have if she had lived to a ripe old age, for sure.*

 

You're right, I think she did end up becoming a better person because she was forced to view life from a different perspective. It does help when you have people who truly do love you and care about you who are close by.

 

*Ha.. I did. And you are a good friend to let yourself be subjected to it.. ha. Because.. all issues of your known wrong headedness" aside. ha, :pdespite how much I like it.. I KNOW it was likley not at all your "cup-o-tea. "*

 

*Little Women* is definitely not my speed. Still, I'm glad to have watched it. Again, seeing these films is not just about entertainment, it's about learning. I'm learning a lot about myself, I know that.

 

*Ha.. oh sure.. ask me a specific question like that afer I make a general off hand remark because I haven't seen the film a good long while. HA! I don't think I can give you TOO specific an answer w/ out watching it again, but I just don't have a "fond" feeling over my memories of it, overall. ha. (does that make sense?) I don't have a BAD feeling either.. but it just doesn't stand out for me in my memory as being a movie that I watched and thought.. "HEY.. I like that one.. I need to see it again sometime" I might feel different if I see it again.. but that is how I am remembering it. Not "bad" but just "ok" I guess.*

 

What?! Talk about circles! The film reminds me so much of *Hondo*. I wonder if it's Charlton Heston compared to John Wayne.

[FrankGrimes]

Ciao, CinemAva -- *You're so right here. Using Ronnie like this is a great shorthand, but not too too stereotypical. I felt he had a heart for Judith.*

 

Yes, I agree. I think Alec (Ronald Reagan) did care about Judith (Bette Davis). The bigger question is, did he care about the booze more? The lifestyle seemed to be the greatest love affair for those living it.

 

*She's swell. Have you ever see Bette in "A Stolen Life" with Glenn Ford. She's very very nice in this one. Or in "All This & Heaven Too"?*

 

 

I haven't seen the former but I have seen the latter. I found *All This, and Heaven Too* to be a little too "quiet" for me. I was mostly bored with it. And I'm a Charles Boyer fan.

 

 

*Oh wow!! I love your passive-aggressive list of actresses. You know, you've named all the actresses I like. I think Tierney and Kerr have some cross-over tendencies; I've seen them cross over to the aggressive side in "Leave Her to Heaven" and "Black Narcissus." ( Whew! Deborah was a tough cookie in "...Narcissus." Pretty judgmental in her righteousness. )*

 

 

Those are two great examples of Gene and Deborah playing against type. But even though they are committed and sold on what they want, they still go about their business in a quiet kind of way. *The Razor's Edge* is another film where Gene is aggressive. I don't like her in that one, although she's entertaining.

 

 

*Hmmmm...aggressive. Do you mean assertive? Are aggressive and assertive inter-changeable?*

 

 

That's a great question. I'm sure the two can be seen as similar or interchangeable. Bette is one who is usually assertive. Kate is often assertive. Carole is more aggressive than assertive. Joan Bennett is at times assertive and at times aggressive. Deborah Kerr sometimes plays assertive women but rarely aggressive ones. Ava is often aggressive but I wouldn't say she was assertive. It's really an interesting question. You often pose such questions.

 

 

*Speaking of Barbara Stanwyck, ( no, no one was talking of her, but you mentioned power and I thought of Stanwyck ) did you ever see "Crimes of Passion"? Here she plays a woman who is not allowed to be ambitious and the repercussions that has.*

 

 

No, I've yet to see that one. I'm going to watch it in the next group. Miss G has also mentioned that film to me, too.

 

 

*Whoa!! ( Applause! Applause! ) Nice list, man. And with this list you've covered Joanie from the 30's to the 60's. Might I suggest "Rain" and of course, "The Women." But be forewarned...Joan is not soft in either of these two movies.*

 

 

Well, I've watched *The Women*. Joan was certainly not soft in that one. She has some serious claws.

 

 

*I agree with you wholeheartedly. With some parents, their child's success ( doctor, lawyer, Indian Chief ) becomes their success. And yes, I think spoiling a child can be a misguided way of displacing anger for a spouse or a parent. Or the parent is selfish and doesn't know any better. There are consequences in any event.*

 

 

What I have learned is that any kind of parenting (living) creates trade-offs and repercussions. Parents may have the very best intentions with their parenting but it's impossible to ever know how their parenting is going to truly affect their child. You will often hear, "they didn't learn that from me/us (parents)." But, in some sort of way, they did. Who we are is really created by our home. And there are some things we are just born with. It's in us. It wasn't put there, it's always been there.

 

 

*I see. The child with the iPhone will hopefully be made to work for or earn an upgraded phone. With today's technology, there's no way of "Keeping Up With the Joneses" or the Steve Jobses. But if it’s a "divorce" gift, it goes back full circle to what you wrote in the beginning...guilt.*

 

 

You've got it. It's buying away the guilt. "I will buy your happiness." And what kind of message is this sending to a child?

 

 

*I concur Dr. Spock. No sense closing the barn door after the horse has run away. Mildred does not have a green thumb when it came to parenting.*

 

 

That was funny! You're so clever.

 

 

*I didn't like who did the shooting and for the reasons they did it. It felt like a letdown. 'All this for that?' It was 'Who Shot Mr. Burns?' "*

 

 

*Oh. It made sense to me. The Monster Child finally finally didn’t get what she wanted.*

 

 

It made sense, it's just I didn't like it that much. I would have preferred it be Mildred. But it does make sense with the entire theme of the film.

 

 

*Hey hey hey...do you boys think "Mildred Pierce" is an anti-men film?*

 

 

No, not at all. I'd say it's a "woman's picture," but not anti-men. Heck, the women aren't painted too lovely in the film, either. Veda and Monte are pretty much the same person.

[FrankGrimes]

*He almost always seethes with barely repressed (but strong) emotions. I love it. His eyes are very cinematic.*

 

You're right on target with Yul's eyes. He really acts with his eyes.

 

*His most famous role, The King and I, is mostly outward while Deborah is the cool, frosty one.*

 

That sounds good! I like frosty!

 

*The tough part is her trade-mark. A mask hiding vulnerability underneath. A lot of her 50s roles are like that. Woman on the Beach, The Diary of Esther Costello, et al.*

 

What I've seen of Joan, she's often caught up in a storm and she's usually unsure of what to do. She's been rather weak and vulnerable. And I've liked that about her. This is far different than what I've seen of Bette. I'm not sure if Bette would play in a film like *Daisy Kenyon*. Joan does.

 

*So is every Biblical, Orwellian, Serlingian prediction. Even Will Rogers once said that soon humans would only need one finger because all they'd do in life was push buttons!*

 

We're full of button-pushers, that's for sure! I'm amazed by how quickly our society has turned slave to hand-held devices. It's stunning, to me. We are such a self-absorbed, needy society.

 

 

*Yes, it's a great adventure film and you'll really like Deborah.*

 

I'm trying to picture Deborah in such an adventure.

 

 

*Maybe, though many consider Of Human Bondage one of her best and her Elizabethan portrayals, but they bore me.*

 

And that's what worries me about such films.

 

*Phone Call From a Stranger is okay, kind of like a television show but there are some moments. Her part is just in one "vignette" of several.*

 

I just got the box set that has that film. It was the primary reason why I decided to get the box set.

 

 

*Jackie also mentioned 3 on a Match, which I thought wasn't bad. She's a good girl in 20,000 Years in Sing Sing and you get Tracy, too.*

 

Bette as a good girl with Spence? That sounds appealing. The title makes me think she's playing a "Sylvia Sidney" character.

 

 

*Do you ever! You'll be way ahead of me. Tag Gallagher loves The Golden Coach and French CanCan. He did a video essay for CanCan, I think. I haven't seen it, though, only TGC. The stories are similar.*

 

Wow! Tag is a critic that I respect. That does make those two films much more interesting to me.

 

 

 

 

 

*If Larry's in the room with you, hide all knives, blunt instruments and lock all windows.*

 

That's funny! I think of the same with you! I have to hide the skillet!

 

 

*Maybe because he was being so calculatingly molded into a matinee idol. It wasn't until the Doris comedies and Giant that he began to let loose a bit.*

 

 

Those films and Sirk are what I really know of Rock.

 

*By the way, I agree that Ann Sothern is the best part of The Torrid Zone and it's one of her best roles. I like her playing that kind of character, very sassy and sarcastic.*

 

 

I've never seen Ann Sheridan dishing it out like that! She's been mostly supporting in the films I have seen her in. In *Torrid Zone*, she's really the lead. The film does feature some great zingers.

 

*O. Henry's Full House isn't a favorite of mine, though "The Last Leaf I agree is the best of the bunch. I also disliked "The Ransom of Red Chief". It felt like Monkey Business all over again.*

 

That's a good comparison! I was completely annoyed by everyone in "The Ransom of Red Chief." I didn't like any of them. I was really enjoying the film until I hit that story.

 

 

*Now you've seen Houseboat, you must see It Started in Naples, which I recently re-watched and now it has to be on my favorite comedies list. It gets better and funnier each time I watch it.*

 

That's high praise. I'll definitely look to watch it in the coming days.

[CineMaven]

*Hey, Grimesy* - Hmmmm...aggressive. Do you mean assertive? Are aggressive and assertive inter-changeable?

 

*That's a great question. I'm sure the two can be seen as similar or interchangeable. Bette is one who is usually assertive. Kate is often assertive. Carole is more aggressive than assertive. Joan Bennett is at times assertive and at times aggressive. Deborah Kerr sometimes plays assertive women but rarely aggressive ones. Ava is often aggressive but I wouldn't say she was assertive. It's really an interesting question. You often pose such questions.* :-)

 

...And your responses are great food for thought.

 

*What I have learned is that any kind of parenting (living) creates trade-offs and repercussions. Parents may have the very best intentions with their parenting but it's impossible to ever know how their parenting is going to truly affect their child. You will often hear, "they didn't learn that from me/us (parents)." But, in some sort of way, they did. Who we are is really created by our home. And there are some things we are just born with. It's in us. It wasn't put there, it's always been there.*

 

I hear ya. And this makes a great case for Being Veda.

 

*No, not at all. I'd say it's a "woman's picture," but not anti-men. Heck, the women aren't painted too lovely in the film, either. Veda and Monte are pretty much the same person.*

 

Oooh, come to think of it...they are. ACK! Run.

 

*Godzilla, which ranked 25th out of the 355 films I watched last year, is # 299 on my overall classic film list. So I watched 25 of my top 299 films last year.*

 

You may have seen this Criterion trailer already, but I share this with you ( and everyone ) just the same. I think this trailer raises the monster movie to majestic heights:

 

 

 

 

 

"The moving hand writes, and having writ moves on..."

 

 

And with that, I shall skedaddle.

[movieman1957]

Oh good. A couple of films for my list. Thanks. (You too, Ro.)

[Bronxgirl48]

Goddess, is IT STARTED IN NAPLES the one with the urchin?

I wouldn't mind with Clark, Sophia, and Capri.

 

I love this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lr-6ySAnHc&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[molo14]

*I think Molo finally saw it so hopefully he liked Jack, too. I agree it's one of his best, if not his very best. I liked the little business with the book, at the end. I am not a huge fan of Hudson, but he was very attractive in this movie.*

 

Hi Miss Goddess,

 

I did watch *The Tarnished Angels* the other night and I've been brooding on it ever since.

 

I'll just put down my thoughts. You, Frank and anyone else, please feel free to comment.

 

First off the aerial stuff was pretty exciting. I liked that.

 

The setting at the carnival, along with the whole backdrop of Mardi Gras made everything all the more surreal. I might have done without Sirk's tendency to go from a quiet emotional scene to loud obnoxious revelry in jarring quick cuts, but other than that the general atmosphere he created served the story well.

 

You really get the feeling that Roger, LaVerne and Jiggs inhabit a different universe. They are disconnected people living in a detached world.

 

So Burke Devlin (Rock Hudson), fascinated by this trio, inserts himself into their mixed up lives. His personal quest to understand these characters sets the story in motion.

 

TARNISHED SPOILERS!!!

 

Roger Shumann's (Robert Stack) need to fly is that of an addict feeding his addiction. A former war ace, he really only feels alive when he's in the air. He has a beautiful wife, a worshiping son, but whatever he feels for them is secondary to the next race. His heart, his true character, is obscured by his obsession and his need to keep moving, to stop would seem to be an act of self destruction for him.

 

His change of heart near the end, his willingness to try to be something else, to give LaVerne something more, sends him to his doom. His last fix kills him. We never know what he really might have done. If he could really follow through.

 

LaVerne (Dorothy Malone), is filled with resignation. She heats up and she cools down but she can't change her life one way or the other. It's like she is simply waiting it all out. Her passivity isn't interrupted by enough spark for me to feel the kind of sympathy I thought I should be feeling for her character.

 

Then there is Jiggs (Jack Carson). This is the saddest character I've seen Carson play. He's in love with LaVerne and it eats away at him. He wants to do the right thing even when he can't. He's attached himself to this dysfunctional family and he's made his nest there. He's become a part of it. It's a very slender thread.

 

He loves not only LaVerne, but the kid and Roger too. He's loyal and he's the odd man out in their sordid triangular relationship. Eventually it all falls apart for him. Roger is gone and LaVerne takes the kid and goes away. He's abandoned. Where did everybody go? Indeed! Jiggs ends up more lost than any of them.

 

*The Tarnished Angels* left me feeling a little empty inside. I did like it, mainly because there is so much to ponder about these characters and the choices they make and the directions they go.

 

I thought Hudson was fine and he delivered a good speech at the end. The words seemed more lofty than the characters he was romanticizing.

 

Stack does a good job bringing out all the fixation, frustration and general discomfort with life in Shumann's character. I've always liked Malone and she is good here. She seems particularly suited for messy situations like this.

 

I did like Jack very much in this role. It's one of his "best friend" roles turned on it's head and drawn to a bad conclusion. What can be seen in Carson's acting style as a bit of a light touch provides a remarkable mask for deeper emotions and great sadness to play out. I thought he was really effective here.

[CineMaven]

 

"Written On the Wind" might be the more tawdry sister, but comparing the somber, anachronistic "The Tarnished Angels" to it is like comparing apples and oranges. Everyone in it is a psychological mess. Outbursts of loud talking, breaking windows, interrupted kisses, lascivious looks, unrequited love. Aaaah, the stuff that Sirk is made of. What?s not to like.

 

Robert Stack - Peter Pan as gypsy moth. Addicted...self-centered. One of those strong silent types with a chip on his shoulder. He'll love ya, but he won?t tell you. You have to go on guessing and wondering. Is he chasing his past glories? He'll learn his responsibility to his family comes first, but as usual with movies, he learns it too late. Just like in "...Wind" he's got the showy role.

 

Dorothy Malone - She just can't wash that man right outta her hair. ( And a gorgeous voluminous head of hair she has. ) Some gals are like that. They love, and love hard. They want to chase the challenge, the dreamer. They want to have to work for the love. Should you blame the man who's trying to help you? Should you lose your integrity in the name of love? She is the lynchpin of the movie. She's very good.

 

Rock Hudson - A tad, just a smidgen too old for the wide-eyed Jack Kerouac searching for the real story reporter. But I like Rock Hudson, and I like his earnestness. He falls for the dream of a girl; a girl who doesn't even care for herself. He has to get her back to where she first started. And that's what love is...thinking about the other fella.

 

Jack Carson - Whew! Always gettin' yelled at. Hero worshipping an old war hero. Abandoned by all at the end, a life wasted. He could have had his own business repairing and building engines He could have had his own full life. Yet he became a third wheel in a dysfunctional relationship. What?s in it for him? Proximity to a woman who will never love him.

 

One of my favorite moments in the movie comes when Stack is trouble in his plane and his son is on the carnival ride plane. The juxtaposition of the boy and man-- the boy going around in circles...and his Dad too. I love Rock and Dorothy talking in a dark room. This is a sad movie of lives criss-crossing...wasted potential. It is melancholy...with a ray of hope at the end.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=Bronxgirl48 wrote:}{quote}Goddess, is IT STARTED IN NAPLES the one with the urchin?

> I wouldn't mind with Clark, Sophia, and Capri.

>

> I love this:

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lr-6ySAnHc&NR=1&feature=fvwp

 

Si, signorina...you've seen it, right? I seem to remember our discussion, involving the ubiquitous Italian street urchin. Nando is probably the least annoying (at least in this latest viewing) of them all. Maybe because he and Sophia are two of a kind.

 

I have never seen *A Countess in Hong Kong*...I've always resisted the idea of Brando being funny...though he was kind of sarcastically funny in *Sayonara*. Have you seen it?

 

My favorite part of *It Started in Naples* was in that video...when Clark tosses her out of bed. Hilarious!

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Jan 14, 2013 11:57 AM

[MissGoddess]

> I did watch *The Tarnished Angels* the other night and I've been brooding on it ever since.

>

 

oh my goodness, i'm sorry to recommend a "brooder"! watch *it started in naples* or bob hope, quick!

 

> The setting at the carnival, along with the whole backdrop of Mardi Gras made everything all the more surreal. I might have done without Sirk's tendency to go from a quiet emotional scene to loud obnoxious revelry in jarring quick cuts, but other than that the general atmosphere he created served the story well.

>

> You really get the feeling that Roger, LaVerne and Jiggs inhabit a different universe. They are disconnected people living in a detached world.

>

> So Burke Devlin (Rock Hudson), fascinated by this trio, inserts himself into their mixed up lives. His personal quest to understand these characters sets the story in motion.

>

 

you've summed it up so nicely. i thought very much that the world that is depicted is far removed, anachronistic as CinemAva aptly put it. They are sealed off by their choices. I wonder what will become of the boy. it's ironic, how it ends....

 

SPOILER

 

Dorothy exits in an airplane.

 

> LaVerne (Dorothy Malone), is filled with resignation. She heats up and she cools down but she can't change her life one way or the other. It's like she is simply waiting it all out. Her passivity isn't interrupted by enough spark for me to feel the kind of sympathy I thought I should be feeling for her character.

>

 

 

That's a good point about her passivity, and I felt it, too. I was very impressed with her performance but you're right. She's in love with someone who's in love with something else, rather like Mary Lee in *Written on the Wind*, but Mary Lee was very aggressive (or is it assertive?)

 

 

> Then there is Jiggs (Jack Carson). This is the saddest character I've seen Carson play. He's in love with LaVerne and it eats away at him. He wants to do the right thing even when he can't. He's attached himself to this dysfunctional family and he's made his nest there. He's become a part of it. It's a very slender thread.

>

> He loves not only LaVerne, but the kid and Roger too. He's loyal and he's the odd man out in their sordid triangular relationship. Eventually it all falls apart for him. Roger is gone and LaVerne takes the kid and goes away. He's abandoned. Where did everybody go? Indeed! Jiggs ends up more lost than any of them.

>

 

you're so very right about Jiggs, he got the fuzzy end of the lollipop to be sure. i kept thinking about *test pilot* when i was reviewing the movie in my mind, and the similar situations. however, TP is brimming with optimism even though there are scenes of tragedy, whereas *tarnished angels* is indeed a downer. when you're roping a dream, people who depend on you can get the short end of things.

 

stack isn't a really "warm" actor to me, so if anything held the movie back for me it was him. i can always see the wheels turning, feel the effort he's making as an actor.

 

i'm glad you got to see another aspect of your Jack's many talents, at least.

 

> *The Tarnished Angels* left me feeling a little empty inside. I did like it, mainly because there is so much to ponder about these characters and the choices they make and the directions they go.

>

> I thought Hudson was fine and he delivered a good speech at the end. The words seemed more lofty than the characters he was romanticizing.

>

> Stack does a good job bringing out all the fixation, frustration and general discomfort with life in Shumann's character. I've always liked Malone and she is good here. She seems particularly suited for messy situations like this.

>

> I did like Jack very much in this role. It's one of his "best friend" roles turned on it's head and drawn to a bad conclusion. What can be seen in Carson's acting style as a bit of a light touch provides a remarkable mask for deeper emotions and great sadness to play out. I thought he was really effective here.

[MissGoddess]

> What I've seen of Joan, she's often caught up in a storm and she's usually unsure of what to do. She's been rather weak and vulnerable. And I've liked that about her. This is far different than what I've seen of Bette. I'm not sure if Bette would play in a film like *Daisy Kenyon*. Joan does.

>

 

Good point! I also get the "everywoman" vibe from Joan whereas Bette is like Kate, Yankee middle class and slightly superior. Joan's very real background is always present in her films, which is why her particular success story is interesting. She really is the poster woman for the working girl (both the bad and good of her---no whitewashing like you see today with all these "super women" who "do it all" and never fail). Joan Crawford, it sounds crazy to say, was very *real*.

 

 

>

> *Yes, it's a great adventure film and you'll really like Deborah.*

>

>

> I'm trying to picture Deborah in such an adventure.

>

 

She rarely loses her poise though she learns to "rough it" in the brush. She starts out a little like Linda in *Mogambo*.

 

>

> *Phone Call From a Stranger is okay, kind of like a television show but there are some moments. Her part is just in one "vignette" of several.*

>

>

> I just got the box set that has that film. It was the primary reason why I decided to get the box set.

>

 

I think Shelly Winters has the best "story" of them all. She's really very likable in this one, and loud mouth Keenan Wynn even manages to seem sort of pitiful.

 

> Wow! Tag is a critic that I respect. That does make those two films much more interesting to me.

>

 

By the way, I've never seen *Rules of the Game*.

 

> I've never seen Ann Sheridan dishing it out like that! She's been mostly supporting in the films I have seen her in. In *Torrid Zone*, she's really the lead. The film does feature some great zingers.

>

 

since my first ann sheridan movie was *the man who came to dinner*, i had assumed she was always a brassy, sarcastic type. i was disappointed when i saw a series of rather "muted" performances. where was her fire? *torrid zone* brought it out, for sure. one of her most wonderful qualities is her very strong sense of humor so i like it best when she can show her wit.

[Bronxgirl48]

Yeah, I'm obsessed with Italian street urchins and try to avoid these bambinos whenever I can, but get confused sometimes with where they are -- IT STARTED IN NAPLES and/or HOUSEBOAT. I've seen bits and pieces of NAPLES but never the whole movie; at least, I think so. (my memory these days just cannot be trusted apparently)

 

 

I've stayed away from A COUNTESS FROM HONG KONG, and have a difficult time putting "funny" and Marlon in the same sentence. I thought he was very authentically "Southern" (not just the accent, but "attitudes") in SAYONARA but could hardly understand what the heck he was saying! That famous Method mumble was never so pronounced. I kept wondering how Hana-Ogi could figure it all out.

 

Edited by: Bronxgirl48 on Jan 14, 2013 4:16 PM

[MissGoddess]

loved marble mouth's accent, lol! and the way he says "Hana-Ogi" was to me, one of the funniest things. he was amusing playing a basically simple man who really had never in his life reflected on things like race or wider implications for personal actions. it's why it's my favorite Brando movie, i find him very sincere and not as messy-complicated as he often is.

 

you ought to watch all of *it started in naples*, if only to enjoy the locations---the entire thing was shot there and the colors and vibrancy of the place is astounding. it was already over-run by tourists at that time, but still retained some dilapidated charm and had not yet turned into the jet-set trash magnet it is now, sadly. I was somewhat disappointed by my visit to Capri (physically still beautiful, but basically ruined by wanna-be's---believe me, i'd rather have a thousand "Nandos" than that crowd, ha!).

[JackFavell]

I'm on the other end of things, my first Ann Sheridan film was Torrid Zone, and I used to see it all the time when I was a kid. Now whenever I see Annie in anything, I think she's going to have this huge role, and then she just sort of dries up and gets soft, no more wisecracks, like in *They Drive By Night* and most of her other films. i want every film to be Torrid Zone. Well. At least the Annie part!

 

Speaking of Joan the every woman, I just finally watched all of *Mildred Pierce*. I found something interesting in it, after all this discussion. So forgive me for going back to it now, but I only got my copy from Netflix today.

 

I think that Mildred treats Wally, and maybe the other men in her life too, just like Veda treats her. She only softens when she wants something, whether it be help with an attorney, or a place for her restaurant, or a home for Veda. Poor Burt was left out in the cold right from the get go, since he couldn't provide anything for her.

 

This is especially true with poor Wally. There's a difference of course between her and Veda, Mildred doesn't MEAN to use him, but it does happen that way every time. She is stuck and look who comes to the rescue... Wally. Every single time. Need a babysitter? Ask Wally. Look at the scenes with Wally and Mildred - He is the reason that the whole thing got going in the first place. Wally paves the way for Monty to come into the picture. Now Monty's there, Wally is relegated to being just another of "the help". Wally takes home Veda the kid, Wally watches over her while Mildred and Monty are going out. Then when Monty becomes a pain in the neck, Wally's the man again....It's push away - pull back, just like Mildred is pushed and pulled by Veda. Mildred doesn't mean to, but it's there all the same.

 

So when Wally turns, or basically stands up for himself like Mildred did with Veda, and he does have a good reason, I see a parallel.

 

There is something very cold in Mildred. She wants to be loved but she doesn't want to really love anyone. Even Veda. She doesn't want Veda's love, She wants her daughter to respect her, and her choices, but man, her choices are not good, maybe the only good choice WAS the restaurant. And she doesn't respect anyone either, maybe Eve Arden, but not Wally who actually has some expertise in something she knows nothing about.

 

She should have told Veda that she had more class in her little finger waiting on tables and working for a living than all the rich Monty's would ever have, sponging off of women. I want her to hold her head up. But no.... she doesn't command respect in any way, except business wise, so it's not hard to see where Veda gets it. I think this movie was supposed to be a life lesson about women not going to work... look what will happen...you'll lose your love and your child will be a monster. It's really a shame in a way. But it's such a stylish movie that one can forgive the motives underlying it. The LOOK of the movie is killer. Literally. That scene in the beach house is AWESOME, with Jack Carson getting the shivers without really knowing why, but shrugging it off like a cat waiting to eat a canary while Joan changes in the other room. I LOVE that part and the whole set up at the beginning.

 

And let's face it, there isn't anyone worth loving in the entire movie. Like you guys said, there is something hidden in the past that we don't know about... how Mildred got the way she was. All we see is her in the kitchen, saying that she felt that dissatisfaction, like she was always in the kitchen. But she doesn't seem too unhappy. Is she like Katie in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn? Don't be dissatisfied, you'll jump out of the frying pan into the fire.

 

It's also a movie about outmoded ways of life for women, you can almost feel the change in the air of this movie. That women were starting to feel uncomfortable as homemakers ALONE. I think many women in the audience could feel this same dissatisfaction with their lives, that they might be the more sensible partner in a marriage, or that they were bringing up a child by themselves, while their husbands were out galavanting. I notice that not one man is really castigated here for having affairs, it's a given, that men will be men, and it's alright for Burt to have had his fling. It's really telling two opposite stories at the same time, and like many post war movies, it's very conflicted, and that's what makes the characters so enigmatic for me.

 

It seems to me that from the moment Veda was born, Mildred became her enabler, and of course, as soon as Burt left, Wally became Mildred's enabler.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Jan 14, 2013 4:52 PM

[MissGoddess]

that is something, jackie! i had only felt bad for Wally at times when Mildred would turn to him and then wave him off, like a bothersome child, but never put it all together as you did and I can completely see it that way. It's logical to speculate that Veda grew up possibly seeing Mildred nagging or demanding more than Burt could or wanted to give. It reminds me a little of *Mannequin*, an earlier Joan movie I like. She is from a poor family and basically throws herself from the frying pan into the fire by using a rather no-good guy as an escape hatch from her hopeless home life. She marries him without really knowing anything about him...or, I may be mistaken and they actually grew up together...in which case Joan ignored the obvious about his lack of character. And it sets up a cycle of disappointments and resentment. I can see that with Mildred and Burt. Like many young people, they marry with stars in their eyes and out of convenience, not really knowing one another until it's too late.

 

Interestingly, I think Wally, unlike Burt, had Mildred pegged from the start. He knew her good and bad sides and accepted the whole package. Monty Baragon was like Frank said, a user like Veda who didn't care to stop and analyze people, he only sized up their ability and willingness to supply his wants.

 

You're right, if this movie falls into "noir" in any way it's that no one is "black" or "white" (except Veda), all the leads are very conflicted.

[FrankGrimes]

That was just sensational, Jackie. You write with such honesty and good-hearted passion. I'll certainly look to reply to your post tonight. And I hope CineMaven and Molo are able to respond. They really do know the film.

 

I have to reply to Bronxie, too. I liked what she wrote about the film, as well.

 

Oh, and I really enjoyed "Mildred Fierce." I liked The Carol Burnett Show when I was a very little one, actually. I was a fan of Tim Conway and Harvey Korman.

[JackFavell]

I'm sorry I interrupted, it takes me so long to write what I want to say that other conversations start up before I have come back to the threads!

 

I LOVED Carol Burnett when I was a kid. I think I pretty much never missed an episode. Especially loved her movie send ups, and always waited for Harvey and Tim to crack each other up. You knew if Carol started laughing too that it was super funny.