The Annual FrankGrimes Torture Thread

[MissGoddess]

i loved carol, too, and wish they'd bring that show back. so many classic movie send-ups, and original characters, too. marvelous ensemble team.

[MissGoddess]

by the way, Frank you should see *Mannequin*, an early Joan movie I like very much. TCM shows it now and then. It's one of Joan's classic characters from the wrong side of the tracks who tries to do better for herself. The depiction of her home life is pretty grim, showing what Depression-era life was like for many, and the despair it caused.

[FrankGrimes]

*I'm sorry I interrupted, it takes me so long to write what I want to say that other conversations start up before I have come back to the threads!*

 

You're not interrupting! I'm actually going to try to re-watch *The Tarnished Angels* again since Molo just watched it. The details have escaped me some. I'm left with my overall first impression.

 

*I LOVED Carol Burnett when I was a kid. I think I pretty much never missed an episode. Especially loved her movie send ups, and always waited for Harvey and Tim to crack each other up. You knew if Carol started laughing too that it was super funny.*

 

I was too young to understand any of the parodies. As a child, I was responding to Tim Conway's voice and expressions and Harvey's demeanor. I did like it when they would lose it. Carol and Vicki are wonderful comediennes. They were hilarious in "Mildred Fierce."

[CineMaven]

Aggressive or assertive...

 

[CineMaven]

*Frank Grimes writes - ...And I hope CineMaven and Molo are able to respond. They really do know the film.*

 

I'll take that as an invite and jump right in.

 

*Jack Favell writes - There is something very cold in Mildred. She wants to be loved but she doesn't want to really love anyone. Even Veda. She doesn't want Veda's love, She wants her daughter to respect her, and her choices, but man, her choices are not good, maybe the only good choice WAS the restaurant. And she doesn't respect anyone either, maybe Eve Arden, but not Wally who actually has some expertise in something she knows nothing about.*

 

 

 

 

Jackie.

 

 

Jackie. Jackie. Jackie. In a word...*WoW!*

 

 

Your post has certainly put a fine *fine* point on the case for one Mrs. Mildred Pierce. I've alternately felt sympathy for Mildred and have blamed her for Veda's behavior. The word "cold" might've quietly swirled deep in the recesses of my mind. But I've never uttered it aloud in connection with Mildred. And it's a word that makes all the sense in the world, though I shudder to say it. And you brought it to the forefront.

 

 

*But no.... she doesn't command respect in any way, except business wise, so it's not hard to see where Veda gets it. I think this movie was supposed to be a life lesson about women not going to work... look what will happen...you'll lose your love and your child will be a monster. It's really a shame in a way. But it's such a stylish movie that one can forgive the motives underlying it.*

 

 

Hahaaaa. That's what a lot of movies did back then, warn us against crime, love without marriage/marriage without love, drugs, juvenile delinquency, using Science to intrude on "God’s" work, pregnancy or finding that prince on a white horse. Whew! Movies are just one big C-R-G. ( Consequences / Ramification / Guilt. ) It's a lovely bill of goods we're willing to buy, if they dress it up nice & purty. Look at Eve Arden in the movie. She's successful. She has no husband.

 

 

*It's also a movie about outmoded ways of life for women, you can almost feel the change in the air of this movie. That women were starting to feel uncomfortable as homemakers ALONE. I think many women in the audience could feel this same dissatisfaction with their lives, that they might be the more sensible partner in a marriage, or that they were bringing up a child by themselves, while their husbands were out galavanting.*

 

 

You're so right Jax*x*xon, it doesn't laud Mildred's business-sense, does it. It was an either / or proposition. From Rosie the Riveter to Betty Crocker in one fell swoop. ( Thanx for your patriotism ladies in the airplane plants...now you can go home and darn my socks ACK! ) Pick one...you can't do both. Mildred, you picked pies? Swell... your daughter's going down the tubes!

 

 

*This is especially true with poor Wally.*

 

 

Poor Wally? Say, he's a big boy. He can take care of himself.

 

 

*There's a difference of course between her and Veda, Mildred doesn't MEAN to use him, but it does happen that way every time. She is stuck and look who comes to the rescue... Wally. Every single time. Need a babysitter? Ask Wally. Look at the scenes with Wally and Mildred - He is the reason that the whole thing got going in the first place. Wally paves the way for Monty to come into the picture. Now Monty's there, Wally is relegated to being just another of "the help". Wally takes home Veda the kid, Wally watches over her while Mildred and Monty are going out. Then when Monty becomes a pain in the neck, Wally's the man again....It's push away - pull back, just like Mildred is pushed and pulled by Veda. Mildred doesn't mean to, but it's there all the same.*

 

 

I see Wally gets more sympathy from you than Mildred. You make a great case for that too. Every bullet point is an indictment on Mildred, and I see that. You say Mildred treats him like a yo-yo; a lapdog...the Help. ( D'oh! But true. ) But Eleanor Roosevelt said, "No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Not that Wally felt inferior but I wonder what'd happen if Wally stood up for himself ( sooner ) and said, “Nope Mildred. Ol’ Uncle Wally can’t come to the rescue this time. I gave at the office.” She could go to Jerome Cowan, but he wasn’t in this one. I couldn't help but think Wally Fay is a loveable opportunist. He thought if he helped Mildred, that'd get him closer to her bed.

 

 

You still don't have to warm up to these characters ( maybe the kindest person was Mrs. Biederhoff? ) but I'm wondering, do you like "Mildred Pierce" any better now that you've seen it in its entirety?

 

 

I was going to give you some cinematherapy, but kid...you don't need it. Your Rorschached response came back clear and clean. You recognize a tank full of sharks, Warners-style, when you see it. And you harpooned your targets with great precision in a great post!

[JackFavell]

OK, so I have a smidge more feeling for Wally than I do for Mildred, but it's just a smidge...

 

I hope it didn't seem like I was throwing your beloved Mildred to the wolves. I did understand her, sympathized actually all too well. I caught myself recognizing behaviors in myself. Did you happen to see *Tangled* when it came out? They also used standard things that mothers say and do for their beloved little angels to create a wicked wicked character. The mother in that one puts Mildred to shame.

 

What you say about Wally points out how similar he is to Mildred. Yes, he could have stood up to her and said see ya later, and he should have, just as Mildred could have stuck to her guns with Veda. That's all I was trying to say.

 

What I didn't like about the movie is it's relentlessness. There was not one character who was nice, or escaped unscathed. Even Eve Arden got this really hard edged treatment... I hated it when someone said something to her implying that she was ugly, or mannish though she didn't seem to mind. I don't know if this was the style of the book, or just the movie treatment. It's a harsh world, with no redemption. I latch onto Wally because he has warmth, even though it's a phoney warmth. And I am now a big Joan fan... but no, I didn't like her. I did feel for her at times. It's actually pretty odd for a Hollywood film... there are no real satisfying characters. No real ending. The end brings up as many questions as it solves. I think your mind loves that kind of story. Groundbreaking, modern but classic.

 

I do love the style of the movie. It's grand. I can see you drawn to this. It's GORGEOUS. I see a thru line from this movie straight to *The Letter*. The tone is similar. The look is even similar. Un-apologetically black and white. Glorious! And I can also see the style relating to *Out of the Past,* which is a cold movie filmed with warmth... there's something full and mossy that I can latch onto there... it's kind of right that it should have that bronzey silver nitrate sheen, rather than the cold black and white of the other two films.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Jan 14, 2013 9:53 PM

[FrankGrimes]

*I'm on the other end of things, my first Ann Sheridan film was Torrid Zone, and I used to see it all the time when I was a kid. Now whenever I see Annie in anything, I think she's going to have this huge role, and then she just sort of dries up and gets soft, no more wisecracks, like in They Drive By Night and most of her other films. i want every film to be Torrid Zone. Well. At least the Annie part!*

 

I've only seen a few of Ann's films and she has usually been off to the side, such as you say in *They Drive By Night*. She's actually one of my favorite aspects of that film, a film that I'm not crazy about. So it was nice to see her shine in *Torrid Zone*.

 

*Speaking of Joan the every woman, I just finally watched all of Mildred Pierce. I found something interesting in it, after all this discussion. So forgive me for going back to it now, but I only got my copy from Netflix today.*

 

 

I'm glad you sought it out!

 

 

*I think that Mildred treats Wally, and maybe the other men in her life too, just like Veda treats her. She only softens when she wants something, whether it be help with an attorney, or a place for her restaurant, or a home for Veda. Poor Burt was left out in the cold right from the get go, since he couldn't provide anything for her.*

 

 

That's a really interesting take. I see a lot of truth in what you say. I think the biggest difference between Bert, Wally, and Monte is that Bert was married to her, so he had what the other two were wanting. Both Wally and Monte are seeking one thing and Mildred knows it. She uses this to her advantage, of course. With Bert, it's about a marriage with kids. That's worlds away from the playboy world of Wally and Monte.

 

 

*This is especially true with poor Wally. There's a difference of course between her and Veda, Mildred doesn't MEAN to use him, but it does happen that way every time. She is stuck and look who comes to the rescue... Wally. Every single time. Need a babysitter? Ask Wally. Look at the scenes with Wally and Mildred - He is the reason that the whole thing got going in the first place. Wally paves the way for Monty to come into the picture. Now Monty's there, Wally is relegated to being just another of "the help". Wally takes home Veda the kid, Wally watches over her while Mildred and Monty are going out. Then when Monty becomes a pain in the neck, Wally's the man again....It's push away - pull back, just like Mildred is pushed and pulled by Veda. Mildred doesn't mean to, but it's there all the same.*

 

 

Wally is the fun-loving uncle who isn't anchored down by family. He's mostly playing. Even when he's working, you get the idea he's having fun with it. It's playtime. He's used to doing his own thing, having his fun. He wants to party with Mildred, not settle down with her. So long as Wally is having his fun, he's mostly harmless. Having said that, I think he'd do anything for Mildred because I do feel he cares about her. He's loving her without the commitment.

 

 

*There is something very cold in Mildred. She wants to be loved but she doesn't want to really love anyone. Even Veda. She doesn't want Veda's love, She wants her daughter to respect her, and her choices, but man, her choices are not good, maybe the only good choice WAS the restaurant. And she doesn't respect anyone either, maybe Eve Arden, but not Wally who actually has some expertise in something she knows nothing about.*

 

 

I agree with all of that. Mildred is seeking Veda's approval. She's the child in the relationship.

 

 

*She should have told Veda that she had more class in her little finger waiting on tables and working for a living than all the rich Monty's would ever have, sponging off of women.*

 

 

This is where it becomes English. It's about a title.

 

 

*I want her to hold her head up. But no.... she doesn't command respect in any way, except business wise, so it's not hard to see where Veda gets it. I think this movie was supposed to be a life lesson about women not going to work... look what will happen...you'll lose your love and your child will be a monster. It's really a shame in a way. But it's such a stylish movie that one can forgive the motives underlying it.*

 

 

I'd say what the film is attempting to preach is looking to buy your child's love is dangerous. I think the film promotes a woman becoming a successful business owner. Mildred is a housewife who goes to work and then takes a courageous step in attempting to start her own business. She ends up the owner of a franchise. I feel all of that is painted in a positive light. Burt is shown in a much more negative light when times got tough for him. He sought love and comfort outside of the marriage and he took out his inadequacy on Mildred.

 

 

So I'd say it's not that Mildred is outside the home that is the issue, it's the reasons why she is.

 

 

*And let's face it, there isn't anyone worth loving in the entire movie. Like you guys said, there is something hidden in the past that we don't know about... how Mildred got the way she was. All we see is her in the kitchen, saying that she felt that dissatisfaction, like she was always in the kitchen. But she doesn't seem too unhappy. Is she like Katie in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn? Don't be dissatisfied, you'll jump out of the frying pan into the fire.*

 

 

I think Kay is the one character that is worth loving and she dies in this world of ugliness. No one even notices her needs. That's the most damning part in regards to Mildred, to me. The mother instinct with Kay is completely absent, yet she's worried to death over Veda.

 

 

Mildred is certainly feeling unfulfilled as a woman, but what she feels would fulfill her is misguided.

 

 

*It's also a movie about outmoded ways of life for women, you can almost feel the change in the air of this movie. That women were starting to feel uncomfortable as homemakers ALONE. I think many women in the audience could feel this same dissatisfaction with their lives, that they might be the more sensible partner in a marriage, or that they were bringing up a child by themselves, while their husbands were out galavanting. I notice that not one man is really castigated here for having affairs, it's a given, that men will be men, and it's alright for Burt to have had his fling. It's really telling two opposite stories at the same time, and like many post war movies, it's very conflicted, and that's what makes the characters so enigmatic for me.*

 

 

I do agree with you about the film ushering in a change in the air. I'm sure some women could associate with Mildred, especially at the outset, and even long to do what she does in starting up a business.

 

 

As for the men, I feel they come off horribly in the film. I believe the men are being castigated in the film. Just the mention of Burt's being with Mrs. Biederhof places us on the side of Mildred. To me, that's a castigation. Burt could have been shown as slaving to make ends meet, only to see Mildred blow their money on a fancy dress for Veda. But we see Burt as being harsh to Mildred.

 

 

Wally is looking to "bag" Mildred. That's not painting him a postive light. We are on the side of Mildred when we see his advances. He's a wolf.

 

 

Monte is a playboy predator. Does anyone feel sorry for his being gunned down? Talk about a castigation!

 

 

I think we're on the side of Mildred throughout the film, but she slowly and "quietly" starts to lose us. It's all about the tone of Mildred. She seems like a victim because she's so quiet. But then you start to see, she's a victim of herself. When she agrees to marry Monte, she kills all of herself.

[CineMaven]

*OK, so I have a smidge more feeling for Wally than I do for Mildred, but it's just a smidge...* :-)

 

Hahaaa, okay. :-)

 

*I hope it didn't seem like I was throwing your beloved Mildred to the wolves. I did understand her, sympathized actually all too well. I caught myself recognizing behaviors in myself. Did you happen to see Tangled when it came out? They also used standard things that mothers say and do for their beloved little angels to create a wicked wicked character. The mother in that one puts Mildred to shame.*

 

 

If Mildred is thrown under the bus, then Veda's driving that bus...over Mildred's body a couple of times. Yikes! I took my nephew to see *"Tangled"* but I don’t remember it too clearly. Rapunzel right? Up in the tower. Mean mom... No, I don't feel you threw Mildred to the wolves.

 

 

*What I didn't like about the movie is it's relentlessness. There was not one character who was nice, or escaped unscathed.*

 

 

I’ll go with what Frank wrote:

 

 

*Frank Grimes writes - I think Kay is the one character that is worth loving and she dies in this world of ugliness. No one even notices her needs. That's the most damning part in regards to Mildred, to me. The mother instinct with Kay is completely absent, yet she's worried to death over Veda.*

 

 

Kay was a peach of a girl. She kind of gets lost in the Veda shuffle. I loved her little Carmen Miranda routine. She seemed like a regular kid. Down-to-earth. I think she thought her big sister was an awful drip. Poor kid. And you're right, not even she escaped unscathed. And then there’s ol clueless rich boy Ted. He had a fierce mother protecting him.

 

 

*Even Eve Arden got this really hard edged treatment... I hated it when someone said something to her implying that she was ugly, or mannish though she didn't seem to mind. I don't know if this was the style of the book, or just the movie treatment. It's a harsh world, with no redemption.*

 

 

Unh huh, I see. It’s a dark world that Warner Bros. I did notice their judgment about Ida: Men think of her as a pal. Wally did eye her when she was reaching high for something. ( *”Leave something on me,”* Ida says. ) But then what was that crack about “I hate all women. Luckily you’re not one,” or words to that effect. That sounds like the prevailing image of the times. If you’re not the desirable love object, or feathering the nest of home and hearth and husband and kids,what good are ya? Mercifully times and outlooks have changed. Sort of.

 

 

*I latch onto Wally because he has warmth, even though it's a phoney warmth.*

 

 

Oh sure, and I can see why. Bert is weak. Monte is a snake oil salesman. Wally is the ‘hail fellow, well met’ type. A hearty handshake, a slap on the back, a tickle under your chin and his straw hat. But Wally turning on Mildred with Veda and the Ted thing, turns me against him. Or with him harboring Veda in his night spot to give her a job.

 

 

*And I am now a big Joan fan... but no, I didn't like her. I did feel for her at times. It's actually pretty odd for a Hollywood film... there are no real satisfying characters. No real ending. The end brings up as many questions as it solves.*

 

 

Well, there are other Joan films where you do like her in, so it's all good. I think "Mildred Pierce" is a film noir of sorts - dark, characters with ambiguous motives, no one very likeable.

 

*I think your mind loves that kind of story. Groundbreaking, modern but classic.*

 

 

Hey, now you’re psychoanalyzing me! Well...you might have something there. I never thought about it that way. To me, "Mildred Pierce" seems pretty typical for dark 1940’s movies. I’m thinking about Ann Sheridan in "*Nora Prentiss."*

 

I’m just happy that you gave it your full attention and another chance to see if you liked the film or not.

[MissGoddess]

>> CinemAva wrote: She could go to Jerome Cowan, but he wasn?t in this one.

 

That's funny!

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> I've only seen a few of Ann's films and she has usually been off to the side, such as you say in *They Drive By Night*. She's actually one of my favorite aspects of that film, a film that I'm not crazy about. So it was nice to see her shine in *Torrid Zone*.

 

And see, every time I see one of these pics, I'm saying to myself, "That's it??? I thought Annie had a bigger role in this." All because I've zeroed in on that performance in Torrid Zone... I keep thinking that role is in every movie she ever made with Cagney or Bogart or Raft. She's awesome when she's on fire like that.

 

> That's a really interesting take. I see a lot of truth in what you say. I think the biggest difference between Bert, Wally, and Monte is that Bert was married to her, so he had what the other two were wanting. Both Wally and Monte are seeking one thing and Mildred knows it. She uses this to her advantage, of course. With Bert, it's about a marriage with kids. That's worlds away from the playboy world of Wally and Monte.

 

Yes, and I like the part of her that walks around or turns those landmines to her advantage. For a woman who is able to confront all traps set by men, she's remarkably deluded about the traps set by Veda. All because she wanted "a better life than I had" for her little girl. Too much self sacrifice makes monsters... this is no Stella Dallas. It's an all new torture. Hey! I can kind of get behind that... the anti Stella. Smashing those Hollywood myths (by creating another Hollywood myth, lol). It makes me like the movie more.

 

> Wally is the fun-loving uncle who isn't anchored down by family. He's mostly playing. Even when he's working, you get the idea he's having fun with it. It's playtime. He's used to doing his own thing, having his fun. He wants to party with Mildred, not settle down with her. So long as Wally is having his fun, he's mostly harmless. Having said that, I think he'd do anything for Mildred because I do feel he cares about her. He's loving her without the commitment.

 

Yeah, that's pretty shallow of Wally, isn't it? As long as he's getting teased a little he's happy.... but realizing where he's really at, bottom of the pack, well then he turns vicious. But he's always got an excuse for his behavior.

 

> I agree with all of that. Mildred is seeking Veda's approval. She's the child in the relationship.

 

 

That is totally what I wanted to say! Wish I had! I especially noticed it in Kay's death scene. There's a shot where Mildred breaks down, and Veda holds her head in her lap. Then there's a quick cut away, and when we come back, the two are reversed, with Mildred sitting there with Veda's head in her lap. I don't think it was a mistake.

 

It's hard for Mildred because she's navigating these shark infested waters by herself. She has no time for Veda, and her personal feelings have no place in the man's world she's mostly in. But when she comes home, she's consumed with doubt inside, about her worth in the woman's world. And Veda just sucks at this like a snake feeding on prey. Find the weak spot and tear at it.

 

> This is where it becomes English. It's about a title.

 

The biggest mistake was re-marrying Monty. She listened to her inner voice, the one that should tell you right from wrong, and is usually the voice of a parent. But her inner voice was Veda's.

 

> I'd say what the film is attempting to preach is looking to buy your child's love is dangerous. I think the film promotes a woman becoming a successful business owner. Mildred is a housewife who goes to work and then takes a courageous step in attempting to start her own business. She ends up the owner of a franchise. I feel all of that is painted in a positive light. Burt is shown in a much more negative light when times got tough for him. He sought love and comfort outside of the marriage and he took out his inadequacy on Mildred.

 

 

OK, that's fair enough, I see what you mean.

 

 

> So I'd say it's not that Mildred is outside the home that is the issue, it's the reasons why she is.

 

Absolutely, seeing it from our day and age.

 

 

> I think Kay is the one character that is worth loving and she dies in this world of ugliness. No one even notices her needs. That's the most damning part in regards to Mildred, to me. The mother instinct with Kay is completely absent, yet she's worried to death over Veda.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

> Mildred is certainly feeling unfulfilled as a woman, but what she feels would fulfill her is misguided.

 

Weird how this came true in real life for Joan.

 

> As for the men, I feel they come off horribly in the film. I believe the men are being castigated in the film. Just the mention of Burt's being with Mrs. Biederhof places us on the side of Mildred. To me, that's a castigation. Burt could have been shown as slaving to make ends meet, only to see Mildred blow their money on a fancy dress for Veda. But we see Burt as being harsh to Mildred.

 

That is true. Here's where I can see a lot of mothers caving to their daughters. That dress scene is very real, especially when poverty enters the picture. However, Mildred and Burt are not that poor, just living week to week. If Mildred appreciated what she had in the first place things would have gone much better. Perhaps talking to Veda about the dress would have worked better than immediately BUYING something new for her? Of course, Veda being Veda, nothing would have worked. I say kick her to the curb! Let her work for herself and see how far she gets. Mildred's real problem was thinking she had a normal relationship with a normal loving daughter. I can see this delusion happening, we all invest ourselves in our kids. Had she gotten a dress for Kay, Kay might not have liked it, but she wouldn't have gone all hoity toity on her mom. Veda's disturbed, and it was all about power... and Mildred threw her the power over herself, where she rejected any men having power over her. It's very easy to want things for your kids, to keep up with the Joneses. Especially if you move up, living beyond your means trying to overcome a sense of being white trash.

 

> Wally is looking to "bag" Mildred. That's not painting him a postive light. We are on the side of Mildred when we see his advances. He's a wolf.

 

Yes, that's true too. He's unsavory like the others. So why do I like him?

 

> Monte is a playboy predator. Does anyone feel sorry for his being gunned down? Talk about a castigation!

 

Heck no! Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

> I think we're on the side of Mildred throughout the film, but she slowly and "quietly" starts to lose us. It's all about the tone of Mildred. She seems like a victim because she's so quiet. But then you start to see, she's a victim of herself. When she agrees to marry Monte, she kills all of herself.

 

 

Wow! That's really amazing! You have a very firm grasp of this movie. And this is where I see a huge resemblance to THE LETTER. Leslie is also perceived as a victim, but we slowly see that she is a victim of herself, of her wants. Only she doesn't kill herself, she tries to kill her love - but she can't.

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=MissGoddess wrote:}{quote}

> > > CinemAva wrote: She could go to Jerome Cowan, but he wasn?t in this one.

> That's funny!

 

Oh lordy I had to snort over that one myself! I'm glad no one was here to hear me.

 

Maven wrote:

 

>If Mildred is thrown under the bus, then Veda's driving that bus...over Mildred's body a couple of times. Yikes! I took my nephew to see "Tangled" but I don?t remember it too clearly. Rapunzel right? Up in the tower. Mean mom... No, I don't feel you threw Mildred to the wolves.

 

Whew! I think Frank has actually cleared up some points for me, made Mildred seem more human.

 

>Frank Grimes writes - I think Kay is the one character that is worth loving and she dies in this world of ugliness. No one even notices her needs. That's the most damning part in regards to Mildred, to me. The mother instinct with Kay is completely absent, yet she's worried to death over Veda.

 

>Kay was a peach of a girl. She kind of gets lost in the Veda shuffle. I loved her little Carmen Miranda routine. She seemed like a regular kid. Down-to-earth. I think she thought her big sister was an awful drip. Poor kid. And you're right, not even she escaped unscathed. And then there?s ol clueless rich boy Ted. He had a fierce mother protecting him.

 

I thought that was a very interesting scene. Who was right? Mildred, or the mother? Mildred, of course. Except that Veda was a gold digging trramp with no heart. It's played as if Veda were Stella Dallas' daughter.... but she ain't. Not by a long shot.

 

>Unh huh, I see. It?s a dark world at Warner Bros. I did notice their judgment about Ida: Men think of her as a pal. Wally did eye her when she was reaching high for something. ( ?Leave something on me,? Ida says. ) But then what was that crack about ?I hate all women. Luckily you?re not one,? or words to that effect. That sounds like the prevailing image of the times. If you?re not the desirable love object, or feathering the nest of home and hearth and husband and kids,what good are ya? Mercifully times and outlooks have changed. Sort of.

 

That was the line that bothered me. I mean really bothered me. I don't know why, it was the image of women by the men in the film that I found so yucky. The tone of this film is brutal. If it were played out by Sam Peckinpah you couldn't get any more brutal. I keep thinking of those ants swarming the scorpion at the beginning of The Wild Bunch. They got nothing on the characters in Mildred Pierce.

 

>Oh sure, and I can see why. Bert is weak. Monte is a snake oil salesman. Wally is the ?hail fellow, well met? type. A hearty handshake, a slap on the back, a tickle under your chin and his straw hat. But Wally turning on Mildred with Veda and the Ted thing, turns me against him. Or with him harboring Veda in his night spot to give her a job.

 

Why did he give her a job? I thought it was because he was nice. He says he couldn't let the poor kid starve, but really... why? Was it out of niceness? Or was it to get back to or at Mildred? Now I wonder. Veda isn't good at all. She's a pretty bad performer, so it isn't that, although she's good to look at. It's a win win situation for Wally...show a little skin, pay almost no money, and get Mildred back in his life.

 

>Well, there are other Joan films where you do like her in, so it's all good. I think "Mildred Pierce" is a film noir of sorts - dark, characters with ambiguous motives, no one very likeable.

 

It's funny, I usually do like Joan, even when she's deluded or mad, or whatever. But I did not like her here. I wanted to.

 

>Hey, now you?re psychoanalyzing me! Well...you might have something there. I never thought about it that way. To me, "Mildred Pierce" seems pretty typical for dark 1940?s movies. I?m thinking about Ann Sheridan in "Nora Prentiss."

 

No, when I say modern, I mean it deals with modern issues. It's not about staying at home having babies, or even about falling in love. It's about big eternal things. Power, female roles in society, the mother daughter relationship, money, settling as opposed to striving. It's twisted, which is a modern invention I think, a noir invention.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Jan 15, 2013 11:45 AM

[rohanaka]

Wowsa.. I am really enjoying the chat here on all things "Mildred".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ms Favell says:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that Mildred treats Wally, and maybe the other men in her life too, just like Veda treats her. She only softens when she wants something, whether it be help with an attorney, or a place for her restaurant, or a home for Veda. Poor Burt was left out in the cold right from the get go, since he couldn't provide anything for her

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Miss Bronxie says:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{color:black}This last comment is supposed to make us believe that Mildred is some noble, long-suffering housewife trying to keep body and soul together for her family, when in reality, don't you think she's the one tearing it apart by her insistance on "bettering" the kids, at the expense of her marriage? (piano lessons, fancy dresses, etc., everything she didn't have growing up

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You ladies are honing on something very "key" to Mildred's make up, I think. Bert really is her "back story" in a way.. or at least her treatment of Bert. It is easy to really forget about him through most of the story (because he is kept so in the background) but truly.. while I am in no way sympathisizing w/ him for going outside his marriage to find happiness.. I DO understand why their marriage was doomed to fail. It was not ALL Mildred's fault, but she clearly saw him as a poor provider.. even though they seemed to be living as well as most.. and likely better than many.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that Mildred treats Wally, and maybe the other men in her life too, just like Veda treats her. She only softens when she wants something, whether it be help with an attorney, or a place for her restaurant, or a home for Veda. Poor Burt was left out in the cold right from the get go, since he couldn't provide anything for her

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is especially true with poor Wally. There's a difference of course between her and Veda, Mildred doesn't MEAN to use him, but it does happen that way every time. She is stuck and look who comes to the rescue... Wally

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you are spot on, little missy. That is a great point and one I did not ever think much about before. She IS like Veda. (albeit a kinder, gentler version, I guess... but still just as bad, if not so "in your face" about it.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She should have told Veda that she had more class in her little finger waiting on tables and working for a living than all the rich Monty's would ever have, sponging off of women. I want her to hold her head up. But no.... she doesn't command respect in any way, except business wise, so it's not hard to see where Veda gets it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Veda seems to respect her as much as she seems to respect herself. (which is not much if she would let her own daughter treat her that way) She takes Veda's criticism to heart.. and views her cutting remarks as some sort of commentary of her own parenting skills.. As in: "What?? My daughter is unhappy?? That means I am not doing my job!! I need to get with the program"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{color:black}Here's where I can see a lot of mothers caving to their daughters. That dress scene is very real, especially when poverty enters the picture. However, Mildred and Burt are not that poor, just living week to week. If Mildred appreciated what she had in the first place things would have gone much better. Perhaps talking to Veda about the dress would have worked better than immediately BUYING something new for her? Of course, Veda being Veda, nothing would have worked. I say kick her to the curb! Let her work for herself and see how far she gets. Mildred's real problem was thinking she had a normal relationship with a normal loving daughter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{font:Times New Roman}I have to agree with you there.. and I think I have finally come around to seeing it as a two-fold problem.. I DO think as Ms Maven said.. that Veda must have been wired that way.. but I still feel very strongly that Mildred built her own monster too.. by the way she allowed Veda to continue on unchecked... and even as you say.. "enabled" and possibly even encouraged to be the way she was. And I see that dress scene as the "tell" for sure as to the root of the whole problem. You do NOT allow a kid to act that way.. no matter WHAT you want to provide for them.. no matter if you are "poor" or otherwise. (and I agree.. they were by no means "poor"){font}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{font:Times New Roman}I guess I just mean that if a child feels SO entitled as to speak in such a horrid manner toward her mother (just because she doesn't like a gift) I think that says something about both the child AND the parent.. no matter how much money you have. (or don't have) There was no "humility" in Veda. And again.. I think that is because Mildred never taught her to feel "humble" enough to take "less than best" and be happy with it. Instead she taught her to be "humilitated" if she did not get the "best" (and Veda's scale for "best" was off the charts. So I don't think ANY dress was ever going to be good enough.. if it came from Mildred. She felt she deserved better than WHATEVER she had.. because she viewed both her parents as less than able to give her what she felt entitled to.. the best. (Just because she was VEDA.. ha.. she reminds me of that old 70's song.. ha.. "It's hard to be humble.. when you're perfect in every way" ) {font}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{font:Times New Roman}Ha.. but I like your suggestion.. Mildred DEFINITELY needed to kick young Veda to the curb.. but at the point the movie starts (for Veda's age) even by then it might have been too little, too late. {font}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{font:Calibri}Miss Maven says: If Mildred is thrown under the bus, then Veda's driving that bus...over Mildred's body a couple of times. Yikes{font}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{font:Calibri}Ha.. yes.. and not only is Veda driving.. Mildred is the one who gave her the keys!{font}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

{font:Times New Roman}The Grey Dude says:{font}

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd say what the film is attempting to preach is looking to buy your child's love is dangerous. I think the film promotes a woman becoming a successful business owner. Mildred is a housewife who goes to work and then takes a courageous step in attempting to start her own business. She ends up the owner of a franchise. I feel all of that is painted in a positive light. Burt is shown in a much more negative light when times got tough for him. He sought love and comfort outside of the marriage and he took out his inadequacy on Mildred

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I'd say it's not that Mildred is outside the home that is the issue, it's the reasons why she is

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it might be a bit of both.. what Jackie suggested (perhaps less overtly) but MOSTLY what you are suggesting here. I think the whole movie is Mildred singing "What I did for love" in a very warped and sad, twisted sort of way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Oh good gravy.. ha.. I am caught up in 70's tunes today.. and not very good ones at that.. woe is me!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by: rohanaka on Jan 15, 2013 3:24 PM (because I just have to say SORRY for the mixed up "type" folks.. but.. Whoa.. ha. I am not even going to TRY and fix all my "font" issues.. ha. I am obviously having some sort of horrific technophobic mental breakdown..ha. Silly me.

[MissGoddess]

I agree with Ro, this discussion has certainly brought out a lot in *Mildred Pierce* that I never considered.

 

Such as:

 

The Pierce household was not really poor. Their "status" and where both Mildred and Veda wish to take it is to me the most modern thing about the movie. They are not satisfied with anything, either of them.

 

Wally's ways make his bad intentions palatable, but as has been pointed out, the only really worthy person, Kay, was killed, perhaps to point out how pure in heart types can't survive on their own in such an environment.

 

The "tone" of the film is cold. Jackie, I feel the same way. It's an almost clinical coldness, and Curtiz films Cain's story with all the precision (and mercy) of a scalpel. I have only read two James M. Cain books (MP and The Postman Always Rings Twice), both made into movies that lack any really admirable or even likable characters.

[CineMaven]

*Grimesy writes: I agree with all of that. Mildred is seeking Veda's approval. She's the child in the relationship.*

 

*That is totally what I wanted to say! Wish I had! I especially noticed it in Kay's death scene. There's a shot where Mildred breaks down, and Veda holds her head in her lap. Then there's a quick cut away, and when we come back, the two are reversed, with Mildred sitting there with Veda's head in her lap. I don't think it was a mistake.*

 

 

Whoa! I've never noticed that, though I think it's probably a continuity error. I'll have to go back and look for that. Do you remember this moment: Mildred slaps Veda when Veda mouths off about the waitress uniform, and then regrets it ( *"I'd like to cut off my hand..."* ) See Mildred sit on the sofa contrite, while Veda stands over her. Power.

 

 

*It's hard for Mildred because she's navigating these shark infested waters by herself. She has no time for Veda, and her personal feelings have no place in the man's world she's mostly in. But when she comes home, she's consumed with doubt inside, about her worth in the woman's world. And Veda just sucks at this like a snake feeding on prey. Find the weak spot and tear at it.*

 

 

A snake. (( Sigh! )) Ahhhh Veda. I mean BAD VEDA! BAD BAAAD VEDA! ( Even her name sounds vile now, doesn't it? ) Women are always struggling between home and work and balancing the power especially if she's in an authority position at work. Kate Hepburn wouldn't do it. So how does Meryl Streep do it? Juggle home and career.

 

 

*The biggest mistake was re-marrying Monty. She listened to her inner voice, the one that should tell you right from wrong, and is usually the voice of a parent. But her inner voice was Veda's.*

 

 

Hey..."FREAKY FRIDAY." Yes, that was a big mistake. And that seals EVERYone's fate. And Bert leads Veda to the slaughter when he returns prodigal daughter. Yeah yeah...I know.Veda probably read the society page on her own that her mom has married, and then decides to go home.

 

 

*Perhaps talking to Veda about the dress would have worked better than immediately BUYING something new for her? Of course, Veda being Veda, nothing would have worked. I say kick her to the curb! Let her work for herself and see how far she gets. Mildred's real problem was thinking she had a normal relationship with a normal loving daughter.*

 

 

Kick her to the curb? Somebody get me a dime. I need to call Child Social Services on you. On the other hand, Mildred's daughter is a sociopath.

 

 

*I can see this delusion happening, we all invest ourselves in our kids. Had she gotten a dress for Kay, Kay might not have liked it, but she wouldn't have gone all hoity toity on her mom. Veda's disturbed, and it was all about power... and Mildred threw her the power over herself, where she rejected any men having power over her. It's very easy to want things for your kids, to keep up with the Joneses. Especially if you move up, living beyond your means trying to overcome a sense of being white trash.*

 

 

Love it. Love it. Do not give your power to any one.

 

 

*Grimes writes: Wally is looking to "bag" Mildred. That's not painting him a postive light. We are on the side of Mildred when we see his advances. He's a wolf.*

 

 

*Yes, that's true too. He's unsavory like the others. So why do I like him?* :-)

 

 

Ugh! Don’t lob those straight lines. You know I have no sense of self-censorship!

 

 

*...this is where I see a huge resemblance to THE LETTER. Leslie is also perceived as a victim, but we slowly see that she is a victim of herself, of her wants. Only she doesn't kill herself, she tries to kill her love - but she can't.*

 

 

(( Sigh! )) Aaah Leslie. Yay Leslie. I mean BAD LESLIE! BAAAAD LESLIE!

 

 

Aw heck! I can't! I can't! I can’t! With all my heart - I still love the movie I love.

 

 

*Whew! I think Frank has actually cleared up some points for me, made Mildred seem more human.*

 

 

Now, more human? D'0h! Niagara Falls. 1...2...3...4..I see. You can take it from a man...but not from your cat-eye-wearing / Glo-Lo loving sister under the mink. Be that way.

 

 

Who would you rather adopt:

 

 

* Bonita Granville: The Children's Hour

 

 

* Patty McCormack: The Bad Seed or

 

 

* Ann Blyth: Mildred Pierce.

 

 

No on-the-fence / answer a question with a question / political answers please. Which kid would you want?

 

 

*Why did he give her a job? I thought it was because he was nice. He says he couldn't let the poor kid starve, but really... why? Was it out of niceness? Or was it to get back to or at Mildred? Now I wonder. Veda isn't good at all. She's a pretty bad performer, so it isn't that, although she's good to look at. It's a win win situation for Wally...show a little skin, pay almost no money, and get Mildred back in his life.*

 

 

Aahhh Wally. Always playing the angles. I love him 'cuz he's a shyster... an angle boy. Geez, I'd want him on my side. Did you see him get that $10K deal for Veda? I laughed when he said later in the club: "I don’t have any kids," and then he knocked on wood. (( Sigh! )) Aaaaah Wally. Whoa, what am I saying BAD WALLY! BAAAD WALLY! ( Psst! Wally, call me maybe. )

 

 

*No, when I say modern, I mean it deals with modern issues. It's not about staying at home having babies, or even about falling in love. It's about big eternal things. Power, female roles in society, the mother daughter relationship, money, settling as opposed to striving. It's twisted, which is a modern invention I think, a noir invention.*

 

 

I see what you’re saying. I actually think I knew that, but got caught up in being literal. You’re right, Jaxxxon: power, female roles in society, etc... ( I picked that foto below b’cuz it looked like a Power woman of the 40’s. ) This film does tackle issue women still grapple with today, post-feminism or no. “Mildred Pierce” is a good film to study on so many levels.

 

 

Who would you want as a Mom: ( Oh no...leave out Stella Dallas or Andy Hardy's mom! )

 

 

* Mildred..........."Mildred Pierce"

 

 

* Regina..........."The Little Foxes" or

 

 

* Crystal Allen.."The Women" ( step-mom )

 

 

*Miss Goddess writes: The "tone" of the film is cold. Jackie, I feel the same way. It's an almost clinical coldness, and Curtiz films Cain's story with all the precision (and mercy) of a scalpel. I have only read two James M. Cain books (MP and The Postman Always Rings Twice), both made into movies that lack any really admirable or even likable characters.*

 

 

Wow, I never felt the tone was cold with this movie. Do you think we can learn from characters we don’t like?

 

 

If Mildred is thrown under the bus, then Veda's driving that bus...over Mildred's body a couple of times. Yikes!

 

 

*Rohanaka writes: Ha.. yes.. and not only is Veda driving.. Mildred is the one who gave her the keys!*

 

 

Ro - THAT literally made me laugh out loud! Your one-ups-manship on a metaphor was brilliant.

 

 

May I have everybody's indulgence for just a minute; well...for eight minutes. This is an excerpt of a MovieCHAT I did with my three friends. It gets wild and woolly later on, but this segment is a calm discussion about *"Mildred Pierce."*

 

 

[MissGoddess]

i hope to watch your video chat later when i get home, T!

 

in the mean time: Bonita, Mildred (just call me Veda!) and yes we can definitely learn from characters we don't like....sometimes more than from the likeable ones!

[rohanaka]

 

Who would you rather adopt

 

 

Veda hands down.. but ony if I can get her when she's still a toddler.. ha Otherwise, all bets are off. ha.

 

 

Who would you want as a Mom

 

 

Ha.. Crystal. I'm smarter than she is. No wait.. Mildred. I do love a mom who can bake so I don't have to.. plus I am not as picky about clothing as Veda so I likely would have LOVED the dress.

 

 

This is an excerpt of a MovieCHAT

 

 

That was fun. I like how their conversation is almost the same as what we have going on here. (and ps.. I am w/ the gal in the dress.. ha. Mildred should have crossed that line a lot more.. but HA.. I would NEVER put Veda behind that cash register. She'd steal all the cash. I say she needs to bus tables.. often.. and a lot of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CineMaven]

Thank you for weighing in Veda...I mean Elsa...I mean Miss G. I like

your choices of daughter and Mom.

 

I didn't want to make it easy. I mean who wouldn't want Mary Astor

from *"Meet Me In St. Louis."* But would you want her this way:

 

 

 

*FRITZI.*

[MissGoddess]

lol! yes, fritzi was tough. i'm trying to think who I would want if i could choose from them all...maybe Myrna Loy (any movie she played a mom...except...From the Terrace...oy! poor thing.) Myrna was so calm and sensible, she'd have thrown oil on my raging adolescent seas. Plus, she'd have been wise enough to choose a great Dad for me.

[rohanaka]

Hello Miss Maven, ma'am.

 

 

 

feeling any better today

 

 

 

Not much, sad to say.. the flu is a mean, mean bug.. alas.

 

 

 

Those choices for kids are as they're seen in the movies I listed. Fully formed. In all their unholy glory. So....which kid would you adopt? Who do you think you'd have the most influence over

 

 

 

Ha.. well.. then I have to go w/ my all bets are off statement. HA! To be honest.. if we take the humor and/or hypothetical out of the equation.. I have actually had some experience in this. (not through adoption.. but by marriage) Being known by at least half of my stepsons as the resident "evil stepmother of the world.. I can say that parenting another person's emotionally damaged child (while that child continues with every breath they take to resent you for all you do to help them) is not for the feint of heart. It was a lesson in patience and endurance, the likes of which I have never seen or known before (and in some ways.. I would NEVER want to do again.. were it not for love of my husband)

 

 

 

But that is about all I want to say on that issue. ha.. so if I have to adopt one of these three "as is" ha.. I think I'll choose a puppy.

 

 

 

One question, what did you think of the comment, your kids are your real relatives

 

 

 

I have to say that I don't see it the same way.. but I do understand why it was said. I think on one level it CAN feel that way.. your child is "OF" you. They are part of who you are physically.. and also emotionally..and perhaps on some levels even spiritually. So I guess I can understand why she would say that. But I also think the same could be said of your husband (at least I could) in the right conversation.

 

 

 

NO.. he is not a "product" of me in the same sense that my child is.. not "of" my body, maybe.. but he is a FACTOR of the product.. because without BOTH of us.. she would not be here.. and she would not be "ours" We are all one "unit" combined, as it were.. at least that it is how I see it. Hope that makes sense.

[JackFavell]

>Aw heck! I can't! I can't! I can?t! With all my heart - I still love the movie I love.

 

Ha! talk about laughing out loud! You totally made me laugh here and also with your gushing love of Veda, Leslie, and Wally.

 

I'm exactly the same as MissG, I'd take Bonita, Mildred and pie. with some Wally on the side.

[CineMaven]

*ROHANAKA writes - ...the flu is a mean, mean bug.. alas.*

 

I'm sorry to hear that Ro. I guess it must run its course. But consider the doctor soon. Feel better little kidling! :-(

 

*Being known by at least half of my stepsons as the resident "evil stepmother of the world..." I can say that parenting another person's emotionally damaged child (while that child continues with every breath they take to resent you for all you do to help them) is not for the feint of heart.*

 

 

All jokes aside, you are blessed, Ro, to have the husband that you have. That is a mammoth undertaking, and not to be tackled without great support and lots of love.

 

 

*...if I have to adopt one of these three "as is" ha.. I think I'll choose a puppy.*

 

 

Awwwww...puppies are wonderful. Better to take them for walks than sleep with one eye open for a kid whose got a "basketful of hugs."

 

 

*I have to say that I don't see it the same way.. but I do understand why it was said. I think on one level it CAN feel that way.. your child is "OF" you. They are part of who you are physically.. and also emotionally..and perhaps on some levels even spiritually. So I guess I can understand why she would say that. But I also think the same could be said of your husband (at least I could) in the right conversation.*

 

 

I hear ya Ro. I think my friend was half-way kidding. Love is the key. Love is the key to ALL of this.

 

 

*JACK FAVELL writes - Ha! talk about laughing out loud! You totally made me laugh here...*

 

 

Yay. Laughs. That's what I truly live for.

 

 

*...and also with your gushing love of Veda, Leslie, and Wally.*

 

 

Gushing...me? I'll have you know those are some very very shady snaky characters.

 

 

*I'm exactly the same as MissG, I'd take Bonita, Mildred and pie. with some Wally on the side.*

 

 

Yup...now you got me laughing.

 

 

Bonita.......a tattle telling sister

Mildred.....someone's baking something yummy

 

 

And Wally...

 

 

 

 

...Bon appetit!

[MissGoddess]

lol! bon appetit, wally con-carne!

[CineMaven]

:^0 *HA! *:^0

 

Does that come with pasta?

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=CineMaven wrote:}{quote}:^0 *HA! *:^0

>

> Does that come with pasta?

 

yes! and Parmesan.

[rohanaka]

 

I guess it must run its course. But consider the doctor soon. Feel better little kidling

 

 

Thanks Miss Maven. We're keeping a close eye on it, but I think you are right.. we are just going to have to wait it out, alas. Mostly it is just an issue of rollercoaster fever.. she goes way up.. and then we get it down.. and then she goes back up again. No fun. She has a headache off and on (mostly when the fever is up) and she doesn't have much appetite, but so far has had only minor "tummy" trouble. She does have a very mild "hacky" cough too.. but not much else. I guess it could be a lighter strain than some flu's.. but still not much to smile about.

 

 

you are blessed, Ro, to have the husband that you have

 

 

Absolutely.. and that is what makes the difference, I am sure between feeling "related" to your husband.. and viewing him as "a guy you just met somewhere" (as the lady in your video joked.. and I agree.. I think she was joking somewhat about that part, ha) And I think you are right.. it is all about love. For such a small word.. it packs a lot of power and that is what makes a family "related".