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Harvey-1950


molo14
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Now, Larry, YOU have posted a couple of screencaps that for me were very

curious. I always wondered over Ellwood "covering up" his Mother like that

with the Harvey portrait. So, yes, it's obvious Harvey has "replaced" his

mother, or filled the void that her passing left in Elwood's life, but it's a little

jarring to me the way he puts the painting right over her like that. I'd have

thought Elwood would have been too sensitive to make a rather harsh

gesture like that. I couldn't do it unless I was covering a picture of someone

who made me feel bad when I looked at them. Like I say, it's a curious

moment.

 

It also seems to say that fantasy has taken the place of reality. If Elwood

can no longer find a REAL person who will love him unconditionally, he

will make do with a fantasy person. Wow. I wish it were that easy. But,

try as I might, Gary Cooper just won't talk back to me. ;)

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I felt a sadness for him. And then I actually

smiled, thinking about Harvey and pookas. It was rather an interesting moment.

 

Mr Grey... did you edit your post after I already read it or something??? I TOTALLY missed your story here until Molo responded to what you wrote....The last time I looked, old Elwood was just taking time to smell the roses and then... I go back searching to read the reference to what Molo quoted... because it caught my eye... and not only did I find a very nice story... but also....

 

Put that wrench down, Quiet Gal!

 

HA!!!!!! :P (I am saving that wrench just for you, my friend). :P

 

And PS... it might surprise you to know that sometimes when I see old folks "talking to themselves" like the man in your story... I will stop and chat with them...(even w/out a wrench.. or a shopping cart to protect me! Ha.

 

I think a lot of times folks like the man you described are only talking to themselves because they have no one else to chat with as a part of their daily life.. and they've gotten used to it. And it really makes their day just to know someone else out there even still "see's them" let alone "hears them". True.. a lot of them are "grouchy"... and some elderly folks will "talk your socks off" at times... but I've spent a lot of time listening to and chatting w/ older folks in a couple of my previous jobs.... and you can really learn a lot about how "pleasant" people used to be in general conversation just by "passing the time" with an older person sometimes. People had a way of speaking way back when that has almost been lost nowdays.

 

And.. PSS... if I had been in your chair sitting next to that fellow... it might also have been a contest as to who talked to themselves more... him or me.. as I tend to do that a lot myself....

 

Hey... maybe THAT explains why I see all these wrenches in OTHER people's hands when I am out shopping.... Ha.

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Hi April,

 

Well those caps might make it seem more abrupt than it actually is but you make a good point. I was also a little surprised that he would do that. Maybe he was just putting it there temporarily until he found a better spot. :) I agree though it *is* a curious moment.

 

*It also seems to say that fantasy has taken the place of reality. If Elwood*

*can no longer find a REAL person who will love him unconditionally, he*

*will make do with a fantasy person.*

 

Hey now! When you start bantering about phrases like fantasy has taken the place of reality and fantasy person you sound like you don't think Harvey is real. I worry about your premise on this one. Even Veta admits that Harvey is really there.

 

harvey-41.jpg?t=1238359945

harvey-42.jpg?t=1238359971

harvey-43.jpg?t=1238359997

harvey-44.jpg?t=1238360025

 

You haven't been drinking any formula 977 have you? :D

 

*Wow. I wish it were that easy. But, try as I might, Gary Cooper just won't talk back to me.*

 

Ha! I think I'll let Mr. Grimes have a little fun with that one. :)

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and how are you Mr. Grimes.

 

Spiffed! And you?

 

 

Oh I get it. I think I can definitely relate to Elwood on that.

 

I believe most of us can. Unless...

 

Yes, That's what I got out of it. He lets his mind wander a little bit. He catches

himself and he thinks immediately of Harvey.

 

I believe we learn a lot about Elwood with this [/i]minor[/i] exchange:

 

harvey48.jpg

 

harvey49.jpg

 

I think the first cap poses a philosophical question. I believe Elwood's reply to be an

honest answer. Is he really looking for Harvey? Is he? Again, I find all of this to be

rather sad and touching. Is Elwood truly happy? Is he at peace? He seems to be

a lonely man with many friends.

 

I find it interesting that Elwood is always introducing people to Harvey and trying

to bring them in on the deal, so to speak. Dr. Chumley is the only person we ever

see that actually takes him up on the offer, but I get the feeling he doesn't quite

get it. He doesn't want anyone to know he sees Harvey. He's afraid. He's not really

open to the whole concept. I could never see Harvey staying with him. I think you

have a point there that Harvey is uniquely Elwood's. I would be curious what others

think about it.

 

Dr. Chumley is the darkest figure in the film for me, but he's wanting to turn light.

Do you know why I feel this way? If you don't, I'll let you know with Mrs. Chumley. It's

these individual characters I'm hoping to get to.

 

I agree that the death of Elwood's mother affected him greatly. As Veta said he was

a great homeboy, he loved his home. Our home is often our emotional center. It's

where things are familiar. Most importantly it's where the people are that we love

most and that is what really makes a home. When his mother died Elwood lost

a big part of his world. He had a hole in his life, a void, that he needed desperately

to fill.

 

That was exceptional. And I'm glad you posted those critical screen caps of Elwood

replacing the portrait of his Mother with a portrait of he and Harvey. I believe we are being

told of Elwood's emotional state with that moment. Harvey IS filling the void of his

mother. I believe Elwood always turned to his mother for strength and encouragement

and it's now Harvey who he turns to for this. Harvey has replaced his mother.

 

I find it interesting as to when Harvey came to be. Why did Elwood tell this story to

explain how and when Harvey came to be?

 

I have been tossing this one back and forth for a while. Why do you make me do that

Frank? I'm not sure I have a good answer yet. I know you have something cookin' in

your mind about this.

 

I'm like you, I'm not sure I have a good answer for it. One part of me believes Harvey

came to be because Elwood's conscience caught up with him. He saw himself headed

down the same path as Ed Hickey and this brought Harvey to life. Harvey had been

there all along, but Elwood could never hear or see him... until that night. For some

reason, we are told of Ed Hickey and his being spiffed.

 

Once you believe in "Harvey," he's to be what you want him to be. He's to free you of

your worries, your concerns, your burden. He is what's good in life. To know him is to

know peace, inner peace.

 

All I know is that Elwood must have felt very alone at that point. I said earlier that

I thought he felt so low that he may have actually wished Harvey into existence.

 

I believe there is a lot of truth to that.

 

 

Maybe that's why I always had such hopes for it.

 

So what you got cookin' there Frank?

 

That's another comment that I've been struggling with. My guess is that Elwood has

been lonely and unhappy throughout his life, looking for his "Harvey," his happiness.

 

I so understand this. As an overly anxious person myself, who on their best days

can be considered "functionally neurotic" my perception of "normal" is also a little

skewed in a different direction than most. I always tell my more normal friends

that us neurotics have the jump on so called "well adjusted" people because we

know something's up. Not really sure what that means but I like to say it. Anyway

I believe in what you said there.

 

Ahhhh, neuroticism. I know thee well.

 

A person could be the most enjoyable, likeable person yet if they reveal something

that doesn't sit well with you, they all of a sudden become less, possibly much

less. This is what I speak of with us all having our "pookas."

 

Well I guess we can't be truly happy unless we truly know sadness. This seemingly

light and simple tale isn't really so simple after all. It speaks to what is really at

the heart and essence of living. I think that is why it touches us so.

 

That is very profound. I like it!

 

 

I really think seeing Sanderson and Miss Kelly finally happy together warmed

Elwood's heart but also brought out some of his regrets for what time takes away

from us. There will always be a little envy and regret, even in genuinely goodhearted

people like Elwood.He always speaks very philosophically about such things. It's

the wisdom of an "old soul".

 

Very true. A man can have it all, yet have nothing. We all seem to find ways to

make ourselves unhappy and envy has a lot to do with it. In otherwords, dreams

are both good and bad. It's both good and bad to want. Quite a paradox.

 

I'm glad you remembered Harvey at that time. Hey, who really knows what's going on

out there?

 

More like, who really knows what's going on in there? "What did you have

in mind?"

 

My second favorite character in the film was Aunt Ethel.

 

Now there you surprise me Frank. I like Aunt Ethel but I didn't really give her that much

thought.

 

I thought she was a rich character. Veta and Myrtle Mae are doing all they can to

prevent Elwood from seeing someone like Aunt Ethel yet she is most interested in seeing

Elwood. She cares about Elwood while the others are "dead" to her.

 

I found this to be interesting:

 

harvey50.jpg

 

harvey51.jpg

 

harvey52.jpg

 

harvey53.jpg

 

Why is that interesting? Well, it tells me Elwood was indeed pleasant before

Harvey entered his life. His greeting to Aunt Ethel is how he most likely always

greeted her. She is quite taken by him. He "hasn't changed." However, when he

introduces her to Harvey, she views him differently. In just a blink of an eye,

something is revealed about Elwood, and now Aunt Ethel wants nothing to do

with him. He has changed. His pleasantness goes right out the window. His

"pooka" is how he is judged now.

 

I believe the following words may speak to Elwood's depression and how long he

has been dealing with it.

 

harvey54.jpg

 

harvey55.jpg

 

Elwood has withdrawn from society. That doesn't mean he has withdrawn from

society, though. So did he stopped going to the dances, the club, and shows before

his mother died? How long has she been dead? Or had he stopped going while his

mother was still living? Is his mother similar to Veta? Did she treat Elwood similarly

to Veta's treating of Myrtle Mae? Did she smother him? Did she stunt his growth?

Without his mother, is he lost or free or both?

 

So who is your favorite character?

 

Myrtle Mae! I like repressed women in film. I hope to talk about her a bit, too. I just

love her honesty.

 

Movieman1957 (Chris) wrote: I especially liked Mrs. Chumley. She herself does not

judge Dowd but makes the most of their unusual conversation by enjoying it for the

pleasant banter it is.

 

Frank wrote: I also liked her a lot. And I believe she's actually one of the most tragic

figures in

the film

 

Ah Frank, I was thinking the same thing! It must be all those noir films. My reason

was it seemed like she was a beautiful person kind of trapped there. She was being

neglected in life and somewhat stunted by her position.

 

The reason why I find Mrs. Chumley to be the most tragic figure in the film is

because she is being cheated on and I find her to be such a lovely woman. I find

this to be ironic and tragic. Mrs. Chumley is my third favorite character in the picture.

 

There are still some points you brought up that I want to get to, the relationships

and such, but I will close for now.

 

I have loved your replies. Great stuff. And I still have plenty I wish to discuss. We

haven't even broached the topic of... :D

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Good evening, Mrs. Goodwrench -- I owe you some replies.

 

Mr Grey... did you edit your post after I already read it or something???

 

No. What are you talking about? That must have been Harvey. A-ha! So that's

why you have a wrench and cart. You SEE him, too!

 

You caught me. I did go back and add that little story. I meant to include it originally,

but I forgot all about it when I went to post. Nothing gets by you, Hawkgirl.

 

I TOTALLY missed your story here until Molo responded to what you wrote....The

last time I looked, old Elwood was just taking time to smell the roses and then... I go

back searching to read the reference to what Molo quoted... because it caught my

eye... and not only did I find a very nice story... but also....

 

Put that wrench down, Quiet Gal!

 

HA!!!!!! (I am saving that wrench just for you, my friend).

 

So are you going to knock me cold then toss me into your cart and then wheel me

off to a frozen rope?

 

And PS... it might surprise you to know that sometimes when I see old folks

"talking to themselves" like the man in your story... I will stop and chat with

them...(even w/out a wrench.. or a shopping cart to protect me! Ha.

 

And I bet they all tell you to get lost, they'd rather talk to themselves. :P:P

 

I think a lot of times folks like the man you described are only talking to

themselves because they have no one else to chat with as a part of their daily

life.. and they've gotten used to it. And it really makes their day just to know

someone else out there even still "see's them" let alone "hears them".

 

True.. a lot of them are "grouchy"... and some elderly folks will "talk your socks

off" at times... but I've spent a lot of time listening to and chatting w/ older folks

in a couple of my previous jobs.... and you can really learn a lot about how

"pleasant" people used to be in general conversation just by "passing the

time" with an older person sometimes. People had a way of speaking way

back when that has almost been lost nowdays.

 

For a grouch ( :P ), that was quite lovely of you to say. You are right, there is a

pleasant calmness that can be felt with conversations with the elderly. This is why

I enjoy talking with Lynn. :P

 

The toughest part for me is the repetitiveness. I take my country grandma to the

store and when I drive by certain places, she almost always says the same thing.

Certain sights or words spark an exact response. Now this could be just how my

grandma has always been. I'm not sure. But I guess this could be true for all of us.

Miss G equals wrongheaded. There's just no escaping that.

 

And.. PSS... if I had been in your chair sitting next to that fellow... it might also

have been a contest as to who talked to themselves more... him or me.. as I tend

to do that a lot myself.

 

Do you listen? I bet you don't. None of us do. The older gentleman with the pooka

at Borders was basically speaking his thoughts. I believe you are correct, he is

probably is his friend, maybe his only real friend. This is while I felt some sadness

but then I smiled.

 

Hey... maybe THAT explains why I see all these wrenches in OTHER people's

hands when I am out shopping.... Ha.

 

:D I think you are right. I believe many of us carry "wrenches" these days. You

seemingly cannot trust anyone, anymore.

 

 

I think it could be either that A) the mother DID know about Harvey... or B) Harvey

came along sometime very soon after the mother's death before Veta came back to

live with him... and Veta just assumed he'd been there longer.

 

I'm not sure what to believe. My personal belief is that Harvey came to be after his

mother's death, but I have no way of knowing for sure. When Veta asks Dr. Sanderson

why her mother didn't write her about Harvey, I believe the reason is because Harvey

wasn't "born" yet. But then, I really cannot say for sure.

 

If I may... I think whatever happened to Elwood, it must have caused him some

good deal of disappointment in life. And the way he has learned to deal with it... is

as he says.. to be "Oh so pleasant". But whatever his disappointment or even

"trauma" may have been... I don't think he is still struggling with it. Whatever it

was... he seems at peace... even if he may have moments of "nostalgia" about

the past (like perhaps when he saw Sanderson and Kelly dancing.) But even if he

has made peace with his past regrets... I think they have shaped a lot of his present

behaviors.

 

I agree with all of that, Wrenchy. I do believe Elwood is at peace with Harvey, but

he does have his moments where he feels the pain and hurt of the past and current.

 

He is very literal in the way he speaks... (as in "What did you have in mind?") Everyone

uses those common phrases like "What can I do for you" or "Let's get together

sometime"... just simple "pleasantries"... but to Elwood... they really mean something

because he is truly interested in getting to know everyone he meets. So even while he

is just being "pleasant"... he is totally sincere... which is NOT how most of the rest of

the world seems to operate.

 

That is a wonderful point. Elwood is nothing but sincere. When he invites others to

dinner, he means it. He truly means it. He's not wearing a disingenuous mask.

 

Grey Guy.. you were right about how all you have to do to get the difference

between "smart and pleasant" was to compare Dr. Sanderson with Elwood...

Sanderson was so egotistical and overconfident in his own ability that he had

totally lost sight of anyone outside himself. Elwood was no longer caught up in

himself and his best "ability" was the way he was able to see others and their

needs and to care about them as individuals. And as a result.. he made a better

"head doctor" than the REAL doctor did.

 

Very nicely put. You are correct, Elwood is more observant and a better cure for

humanity than Dr. Sanderson (and his "formula" for sanity), whose JOB is to treat

those who are "crazy." Lyman (Lie Man) believes he has all the answers, which,

ironically, makes him the crazy one.

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You haven't been drinking any formula 977 have you?

 

Hmmm...it only makes pookas disappear? I'd need something stronger, then. :P

 

I guess I chose the wrong word by using "fantasy". What I should have said

was that Elwood wasn't getting what he needed, what his mother gave him,

from any other humans. :)

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Hello there Mr. Grey....

 

You caught me. I did go back and add that little story. I meant to include it originally,

but I forgot all about it when I went to post. Nothing gets by you, Hawkgirl.

 

Whew... I thought maybe the old noggin' was not what it used to be.... oh who am I kidding.... THAT'S still true whether you edited your post or not... ha. "Hawkgirl" is more like "Blind as a Bat Girl" lately... :-)

 

So are you going to knock me cold then toss me into your cart and then wheel me

off to a frozen rope?

 

Well... now that you mention it..... (We'll just have to wait and see how long it takes you to mosey over yonder and start to ramblin' on Rio Bravo... not to mention you need to cast your vote on John Wayne's doofy looking hat...)

 

there is a pleasant calmness that can be felt with conversations with the elderly. This is why

I enjoy talking with Lynn.

 

Oh my... Ms Cutter.. would you like to borrow either my wrench or my rope??? (or both??)

 

And I bet they all tell you to get lost

 

It wouldn't be the first time that someone has done that... Ha. But all kidding aside... I think it is fun to have friends in a variety of age brackets... I have always enjoyed talking w/ folks that were both younger AND older than me... But the older I get the more of a challenge it gets to be for me to find "older than me's" Ha.

 

The toughest part for me is the repetitiveness. I take my country grandma to the

store and when I drive by certain places, she almost always says the same thing.

Certain sights or words spark an exact response. Now this could be just how my

grandma has always been. I'm not sure. But I guess this could be true for all of us.

 

I think we all have our little "sayings" that we rely on...which might explain Elwood's "what did you have in mind"... it could just be that was a little witty thing he always says. I know I have a gazillion little things like that... Some of my little sayings were passed down to me from my parents and even my grandparents... like you said... "certain sights or words that spark a response". And your Grandmother likely is passing down little sayings and expressions to you that you may not even be aware of... just like mine did... But again.. in recent years it seems there is less and less of that in most people's general conversations...

 

Miss G equals wrongheaded. There's just no escaping that

 

Oh me.. April.... when Ms Cutter is finished with that wrench and rope... I am sure we can pass it on to you.. (this is starting to sound like a game of CLUE... Miss Goddess in the Films and Filmmakers forum with a Wrench.. Ha)

 

I tend to do that a lot myself.

Do you listen? I bet you don't.

 

Actually... It depends on what I am saying to myself.. I have noticed that a lot of my "self jabbering" tends to involve "self correction" so sometimes I DO listen... It's when I start asking myself stuff and then answering back that I look around to be sure no one is staring... ha.

 

Lyman (Lie Man) believes he has all the answers, which,

ironically, makes him the crazy one.

 

He wants a "quick fix" for things and for him it is all about a more or less "cookie cutter" approach for everyone... As some have already mentioned... the special formula that he wants them all to try is almost like a form of "one cure fits all" sort of medicine. I don't think it is because he is meanspirited or uncaring... I just think it is because he has become too unattached to the emotional aspect that must be a struggle for those who work w/ so many "emotionally" confused people. I imagine that could be a struggle for any sort of caretaker or doctor in his line of medicine...

 

I think you are right. I believe many of us carry "wrenches" these days. You

seemingly cannot trust anyone, anymore

 

Well... some folks are more trustworthy than others, my friend.

 

Now... where did I put that wrench???? :-)

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Oh me.. April.... when Ms Cutter is finished with that wrench and rope... I am sure we can pass it on to you.. (this is starting to sound like a game of CLUE... Miss Goddess in the Films and Filmmakers forum with a Wrench.. Ha)

 

Ha haahahahaaa!! Good one! I haven't played "Clue" since I was a child. I always wanted to

be Miss Scarlet---wasn't there a Miss Scarlet?

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*there is a pleasant calmness that can be felt with conversations with the elderly. This is why*

*I enjoy talking with Lynn.*

 

Frankie, Frankie, Frankie,

 

I may be older than dirt but I'm not that old. In fact there are relics around here that pre-date me. You have to go looking carefully for them though.

 

The reason you like talking to me so much is I'm usually buying the drinks. Well, that and you learn a thing or three about movies. Sometimes.

 

I may have to go see some of those Noirs that I posted in your torture thread just so I can torture you some more.

 

I'm looking forward to you heading over to the Westerns forum to talk about *Rio Bravo* one of these years. I have a whole collection of Hawks material to teach you about.

 

In the meantime, I'll be back by this way later tonight. You'll be buying my drinks this time, Old Guy. :)

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Hey, Cowboy Chris! -- The trouble with pookas is you can't find them. They have

to find you.

 

Are you sure? Are you speaking from experience? :) When Harvey first says to Elwood,

"Good evening, Mr. Dowd," is that the first time he ever spoke or is it the first time Elwood

heard him? Are we in the forest looking for chickens and eggs? :D

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If you guys will nurse those frosty drinks, I'll join you in about an hour after I have dinner with Mr C. (We're BBQing Frank, cuz the weather is that nice out here in the City of Angels).

 

Would love to continue talking about *Harvey* with y'all. (or *Rio Bravo* down in the Westerns forum).

 

Somebody just tell me where to show up to join in and take advantage of Frank buying drinks. Like Tom Joad says, "I'll be there."

 

Message was edited by: lzcutter because says is a necessary verb.

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I haven't played "Clue" since I was a child. I always wanted to

be Miss Scarlet---wasn't there a Miss Scarlet?

 

There WAS a Miss Scarlett.... it's YOU for sure, little Missy.. (I used to play this game w/ my brothers all the time... but they finally got to where they wouldn't play with me anymore because I always won... I'm not bragging...I wasn't THAT good... its just that they were WORSE... ha) And I used to love being Miss Scarlett too.. but I think by now I have passed on from my Miss Scarlett phase to my Mrs. White stage of life (I think she was the frumpy old housekeeper.. ha)

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Hey there, Movieman -- Many thanks. I hope you will join me.

 

Gladly! Well, only if I'm not to been with a snippy girl or a kooky gal or a spiffed lady.

 

Good evening, Spiffy -- Frankie, Frankie, Frankie, I may be older than dirt but

I'm not that old. In fact there are relics around here that pre-date me. You have to go

looking carefully for them though.

 

No! That cannot be true!

 

The reason you like talking to me so much is I'm usually buying the drinks. Well,

that and you learn a thing or three about movies. Sometimes.

 

Rule #1. One must be spiffed to watch John Ford. :P

 

I may have to go see some of those Noirs that I posted in your torture thread just

so I can torture you some more.

 

If you see The Prowler, that would be tortorous to me.

 

I'm looking forward to you heading over to the Westerns forum to talk about Rio Bravo

one of these years.

 

You got me laughing! "That'll be the day."

 

I have a whole collection of Hawks material to teach you about.

 

I'm a horrible student, you know that.

 

In the meantime, I'll be back by this way later tonight. You'll be buying my drinks this

time, Old Guy.

 

Uh-oh.

 

If you guys will nurse those frosty drinks, I'll join you in about an hour after I have dinner

with Mr C. (We're BBQing Frank, cuz the weather is that nice out here in the

City of Angels).

 

Dammit! I'm envious! Harvey! Oh, Harvey!

 

Somebody just tell me where to show up to join in and take advantage of Frank

buying drinks. Like Tom Joad says, "I'll be there."

 

I'm paying? Ohhhh, look at the time. And this brings me to something Molo asked:

 

Just one little thing. It has always bothered me that Mrs. Chumley goes to all the

trouble to look up the word "pooka" only to leave without taking just a minute to

read it. Of course, we need that to happen so Wilson would look at it. I wonder

if Harvey had something to do with that? :)

 

harvey56.jpg

 

harvey57.jpg

 

Like so many who are responsible, Mrs Chumley lets her schedule dictate her

life. She was close to finding some enlightenment but time and duty chased her

away. Elwood has all the time in world, for nothing ties him down. He's free.

 

Good evening, Kooky -- Well... now that you mention it..... (We'll just have to

wait and see how long it takes you to mosey over yonder and start to ramblin' on

Rio Bravo... not to mention you need to cast your vote on John Wayne's doofy

looking hat...)

 

If I don't show up in that town, I really will be a hanged man. I'll have to see about that

hat.

 

I think we all have our little "sayings" that we rely on...which might explain

Elwood's "what did you have in mind"... it could just be that was a little witty thing

he always says. I know I have a gazillion little things like that... Some of my little

sayings were passed down to me from my parents and even my grandparents... like

you said... "certain sights or words that spark a response". And your Grandmother

likely is passing down little sayings and expressions to you that you may not even

be aware of... just like mine did... But again.. in recent years it seems there is less

and less of that in most people's general conversations.

 

Sayings are one thing, but stimulative replies are another. Whenever my grandma uses

her credit card she tells me, "if you don't use it once in a while, they will it take from

you. They've never gotten a cent from me." If we drive by a particular run-down place

with junk in the yard, she'll say, "Ohhhh, that's just awful. I can't believe people live

like that." Whenever she talks about her mom and her mom's sister, she always

finishes with, "they broke the mold with them." It's very much A+B=C. It's all about,

"what's the first thing that comes to mind." But I suppose we're all this way in some

ways. A certain person or image or word(s) or song (sound) sparks an immediate

reaction or feeling with us.

 

Oh me.. April.... when Ms Cutter is finished with that wrench and rope... I am sure

we can pass it on to you.. (this is starting to sound like a game of CLUE... Miss

Goddess in the Films and Filmmakers forum with a Wrench.. Ha)

 

Now that was funny! I have nothing to worry about since I'm an innocent gentleman.

 

Actually... It depends on what I am saying to myself.. I have noticed that a lot of

my "self jabbering" tends to involve "self correction" so sometimes I DO listen... It's

when I start asking myself stuff and then answering back that I look around to be

sure no one is staring... ha.

 

Listening is very difficult. How many of us have said, "I need to... "?

 

He wants a "quick fix" for things and for him it is all about a more or less "cookie cutter"

approach for everyone... As some have already mentioned... the special formula that he

wants them all to try is almost like a form of "one cure fits all" sort of medicine. I don't

think it is because he is meanspirited or uncaring... I just think it is because he has

become too unattached to the emotional aspect that must be a struggle for those

who work w/ so many "emotionally" confused people. I imagine that could be a

struggle for any sort of caretaker or doctor in his line of medicine.

 

That was terrific. I really like your usage of the term "cookie cutter." That really speaks

to conformity. And I agree with you, I don't believe Dr. Sanderson was meanspirited but

I do believe he was sometimes uncaring. He was definitely blind, and his arrogance was

one of the things blinding him.

 

I felt Dr. Sanderson's entire chat with Elwood was done with the idea of looking to save

his own bacon and Mr. Chumley's from a lawsuit. He feared Elwood would accuse him

of wrongdoing, so he laid it on thick for Elwood. When Elwood leaves without going

after Sanderson and the institution, he thinks of him as a "reasonable sort of fellow."

Elwood isn't crazy when someone else has something at stake.

 

harvey61.jpg

 

harvey62.jpg

 

Miss Kelly is always looking to support "her" man.

 

harvey63.jpg

 

And you gotta love Dr. Sanderson's reply to Kelly's complimentary words of him:

 

harvey64.jpg

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*I'm looking forward to you heading over to the Westerns forum to talk about Rio Bravo*

*one of these years.*

 

*You got me laughing! "That'll be the day."*

 

*I have a whole collection of Hawks material to teach you about.*

 

*I'm a horrible student, you know that.*

 

I have to admit Frankie that I am surprised. You seemed like such a student and a lover of the Hawksian woman.

 

You never struck me as the Will Kane type and always struck me more as the John T. Chance type.

 

To shirk talking about the possibilities at this late hour makes me sad.

 

I'm hoping you will reconsider.

 

But the info I have learned over the years about Hawks would make your head spin.

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Frank's buying the drinks?!! High time.

 

I mean. That's fine, Squire, that's fine.

 

>I think the first cap poses a philosophical question. I believe Elwood's reply to be an honest answer. Is he really looking for Harvey? Is he? Again, I find all of this to be rather sad and touching. Is Elwood truly happy? Is he at peace? He seems to be a lonely man with many friends.

 

A life without responsibilities is oh, so pleasant, but is it really satisfying in the long run? Harvey gives Elwood a bit of a purpose, don't you think?

 

>I'm like you, I'm not sure I have a good answer for it. One part of me believes Harvey came to be because Elwood's conscience caught up with him. He saw himself headed down the same path as Ed Hickey and this brought Harvey to life. Harvey had been there all along, but Elwood could never hear or see him... until that night. For some reason, we are told of Ed Hickey and his being spiffed.

 

I completely agree with you, Squire... completely, completely. It was either Harvey, or following in Ed Hickey's footsteps, and becoming an alcoholic..... Dowd has a higher purpose now than just dropping out and getting "spiffed".

 

But I wonder about whether he could see or hear him before. Perhaps he had never "listened" before...just pushed what he heard and saw away, like many of us do.... we don't listen to our inner voice.... telling us what is right and wrong, or even good, because we want what we want......we are too busy, we are caught up in what other people think is appropriate (like psychologists), whatever. Sanderson is so caught up in his years and years of study, that he has completely lost reality, hasn't he? I think Sanderson is young Elwood. And he is about to lose the very thing that makes his life worthwhile - Kelly.

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How do, Lest We Lynn -- I have to admit Frankie that I am surprised. You

seemed like such a student and a lover of the Hawksian woman.

 

A student of Hawksian women? Hardly. Lover of? Hmmm...

 

You never struck me as the Will Kane type and always struck me more as the

John T. Chance type.

 

I'm neither! You should know that.

 

But the info I have learned over the years about Hawks would make your head spin.

 

Well, go ahead and spin me in "Western Rambles." We all know why your head is

spinning, Spiffy. I'm starting to think you've been hanging out with the Champoo Floozy.

 

What be, Jackie? -- Frank's buying the drinks?!! High time. I mean. That's fine,

Squire, that's fine.

 

You got a laugh from me! Ohhh, you Fordian women.

 

A life without responsibilities is oh, so pleasant, but is it really satisfying in the

long run? Harvey gives Elwood a bit of a purpose, don't you think?

 

Those are very good questions. What purpose do you believe Harvey gives Elwood?

 

I completely agree with you, Squire... completely, completely. It was either Harvey,

or following in Ed Hickey's footsteps, and becoming an alcoholic..... Dowd has a

higher purpose now than just dropping out and getting "spiffed".

 

That's what my take is. Harvey is Elwood's epiphany. There is more to life than...

 

But I wonder about whether he could see or hear him before. Perhaps he had never

"listened" before...just pushed what he heard and saw away, like many of us do.... we

don't listen to our inner voice.... telling us what is right and wrong, or even good, because

we want what we want......we are too busy, we are caught up in what other people think

is appropriate (like psychologists), whatever.

 

Yes, that is what I mean when I say Harvey was always there; Elwood just couldn't see or

hear him. I think he chose to hear and then see him on that fateful. "Hear" meaning

listen to his conscience or his inner being, his Harvey.

 

Sanderson is so caught up in his years and years of study, that he has completely

lost reality, hasn't he?

 

Precisely. He can no longer recognize the obvious. His job and self-importance have

consumed him, thusly blinding him. He's become Senator Ranse Stoddard. Do you

think Dr. Sanderson has ever stopped to smell those Chumley roses? Do you think

he appreciates the beauty of a cactus rose?

 

I think Sanderson is young Elwood. And he is about to lose the very thing that makes

his life worthwhile - Kelly.

 

I remain very unsure about Elwood's past. Aunt Ethel speaks of him attending Yale

alumni dances. Did he attend Yale or was it one of his parents?

 

I thought these words by Judge Gaffney to be very interesting:

 

harvey65.jpg

 

harvey66.jpg

 

harvey67.jpg

 

harvey68.jpg

 

I take those words to mean that Elwood never did anything of substance. He's a

"could have been" not a "has been." Elwood has not amounted to anything in the

eyes of society. He's a failure. Yet, people like him.

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I had thought I wasn't going to get a chance to watch "Harvey" again while the discussion was still going on. Luckily enough, I finally came across a DVD in the most unlikely of places.

 

Well, I'll have more on that later, I hope.

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>Those are very good questions. What purpose do you believe Harvey gives Elwood?

 

I think Harvey makes it possible for Elwood to help others like himself to "stop and smell the roses" without going off the deep end into alcoholism or insanity. Harvey and Elwood help others find themselves, no matter how odd the inner person seems to be. To give a person strength to live completely as him/herself without benefit of alcohol. To appreciate people for what they are, not what they might be. When folks are made aware of Harvey (at least in the bars), they realize for whatever reason that their problems are not so big, and that there is a choice to be made. "Most don't come back" - why? Are they cured, or are they scared to come back? Either way, they have made a choice - a choice to live as THEY wish to live. They realize that they aren't so bad after all - without crutches like alcohol or society's approbation and approval. Dr. Chumley makes such a choice. Elwood says the reason they don't come back is envy. Maybe in some cases, but I don't think it always is. It strikes me that this is Elwood's defense mechanism to think this way. Or maybe he's right, and later on, these "cases" Elwood takes on realize that maybe that guy had something going for him with that imaginary rabbit.

 

The hard part for me with *Harvey* is that the big white pooka seems like a crutch for Elwood. And I can't get around this conundrum.

 

>I take those words to mean that Elwood never did anything of substance. He's a "could have been" not a "has been." Elwood has not amounted to anything in the eyes of society. He's a failure. Yet, people like him.

 

I disagree that Elwood never did anything of substance. It also depends on whose definition of "substance" you use. We are using Judge Gaffney's idea of "substance" here. Gaffney might only think that being a _judge_ or higher was a role of substance, for all we know. I suspect that is the case.

 

Elwood himself says, "For years I was smart" and "I used to know a lot of dances, the Flea Hop, and..... what's it....the Black Bottom, the Varsity Drag....... " I take this to mean he used to "dance to someone else's tune". I think he DID go to Yale, and he was this close to becoming a judge (perhaps he already was a lawyer), or a politician, perhaps. But something stopped him. Perhaps someone made him an offer or bribe? Or he realized that the people he was trying to help did not benefit the way he wanted them to? I really don't know. But it was killing him. Elwood was in that bar with Ed Hickey for a reason - he had a big problem of some kind - because nobody comes into a bar with anything small. I suspect that his job was killing him, and he took to drink. I don't know how long he spent drinking, perhaps he killed his own career through drink long before Harvey appeared, but I don't know. I believe we are never informed. Perhaps Dowd did NOT drink to excess, he just became fascinated with bars and people. What better place to find out what people want, their hopes and dreams, than in a bar? And he just decided to listen for a change. And it gave him something that he never had. Warmth. Human contact without barriers.

 

And Harvey shows up as Dowd is escorting Ed Hickey to his cab. Why did he not pick Ed Hickey as his friend? I believe it is because Elwood is the perfect mix of "oh, so smart, and oh, so pleasant". Elwood is an observer. He WANTS to help people. He wants to know people. Everyone else in the play wants to help himself, except for Nurse Kelly, and Veta at the end when she decides she wants Elwood to stay the way he is.. So why does Elwood ask, "What do you have in mind?" when someone asks if he needs any help? Is he looking for someone like himself, who wants just what he wants, to actually help people? He's looking for someone, but I am not sure that it is always Harvey. And of course, no one ever answers his question.

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Hiya Grey Guy...

 

Good evening, Kooky

 

(sad but true) I resemble that remark... HA!

 

Sayings are one thing, but stimulative replies are another. Whenever my grandma uses

her credit card she tells me, "if you don't use it once in a while, they will it take from

you. They've never gotten a cent from me." If we drive by a particular run-down place

with junk in the yard, she'll say, "Ohhhh, that's just awful. I can't believe people live

like that." Whenever she talks about her mom and her mom's sister, she always

finishes with, "they broke the mold with them." It's very much AB=C. It's all about,

"what's the first thing that comes to mind." But I suppose we're all this way in some

ways. A certain person or image or word(s) or song (sound) sparks an immediate

reaction or feeling with us.+

 

Your Grandma reminds me of MINE... and what's more.. in some ways... I think she reminds me of ME!! Ha. Every so often I find myself repeating a "same old" line.. but in a way.. it's comforting...

 

And it IS very much A+B=C, by the way... Two of my favorites are: "Send a postcard"... which is something "smart mouthed" I usually say in jest to a friend or family member who makes a point of telling me something unnecessary about where they are going... as in...they say..."I think I will go get a soda from the fridge" . Then I will say.. (just to be silly) "BYE...Send me a postcard!"

 

And my other favorite one is "Gravity will get you every time".... usually said following the occassion of something either falling, or getting dropped, etc... But it is funny how these things get passed on, because I have noticed... on NUMEROUS occasions... the kidling will say... "Gravity will get you every time" Ha. And usually it is CUTE coming from a little person, but as she grows older... NOT so cute if she says it to the wrong person. (Like the other day we were at a store when a clerk dropped a HUGE pile of boxes and was very unhappy about it...and then this sweet little voice pipes up "Gravity will get you every time... HA) So NOW I need to teach her WHEN and when NOT to exercise her apparently inherited trait to "babble". Ha.

 

have nothing to worry about since I'm an innocent gentleman.

 

I think you need some of Dr Sanderson's formula... you are sounding a bit DELUSIONAL now... ha

 

I really like your usage of the term "cookie cutter." That really speaks

to conformity. And I agree with you, I don't believe Dr. Sanderson was meanspirited but

I do believe he was sometimes uncaring. He was definitely blind, and his arrogance was

one of the things blinding him.

 

I felt Dr. Sanderson's entire chat with Elwood was done with the idea of looking to save

his own bacon and Mr. Chumley's from a lawsuit.

 

I agree with you about Sanderson's chat w/ Elwood... BUT... when I was talking about his "cookie cutter" approach.... I was actually thinking of his conversation with VETA!! He saw HER as a patient... but he didn't REALLY see her at all... he just felt she was another person who needed his special formula to calm her down and bring her back to reality... He was not really LISTENING to her so much as he was responding to her "babbling" chatter... and in the process... he almost ended up treating the wrong "nutcase". Ha. But it would not have mattered.... because in his mind... they all get the same CURE in the end.

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

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A fine day to you, Jackie -- I think Harvey makes it possible for Elwood to help

others like himself to "stop and smell the roses" without going off the deep end into

alcoholism or insanity. Harvey and Elwood help others find themselves, no matter how

odd the inner person seems to be. To give a person strength to live completely as

him/herself without benefit of alcohol. To appreciate people for what they are, not

what they might be.

 

That's very good! But do you believe others listen to Elwood? He seems to impart

pleasant wisdom, but I wonder how many actually listen to him.

 

When folks are made aware of Harvey (at least in the bars), they realize for

whatever reason that their problems are not so big, and that there is a choice

to be made. "Most don't come back" - why? Are they cured, or are they scared

to come back? Either way, they have made a choice - a choice to live as THEY

wish to live. They realize that they aren't so bad after all - without crutches like

alcohol or society's approbation and approval.

 

Now that's very interesting. You're right, they're probably scared straight because

they don't want to end up like the drunk with the imaginary friend. :D

 

Dr. Chumley makes such a choice.

 

My take on Dr. Chumley is that he was running from his demons (cheating on his wife)

until they finally chased him down. Harvey left Charlie's with Dr. Chumley because

I think Elwood helped the Doc confront his demons.

 

Elwood: Yes, there was a beautiful blonde woman, name of Mrs. Smethills, and her

escort seated in the booth directly across from us. Well, Dr. Chumley went over to sit

next to her, explaining to her that they had once met... in Chicago. Then, her escort

escorted Dr. Chumley back here to Harvey and me, and tried to point out that it would

be better for Dr. Chumley to mind his own affairs. Does he have any?

 

Wilson: Does he have any what?

 

Elwood: Does he have any affairs?

 

Wilson: How would I know?!

 

Sanderson: Shut up, Wilson! Go on, Mr. Dowd.

 

Elwood: Well, Mrs. Smethills' escort seemed to get more and more depressed as he kept

looking at Dr. Chumley. So Harvey and I thought we should take the Doctor somewhere

else. Harvey suggested Blondie's Chicken Inn (GREAT NAME -- Blondie is checkin' in),

but the Doctor wanted to go to Eddie's. And while they were arguing about it, I went up

to the bar to order another drink. And when I came back here, they were gone.

 

harvey74.jpg

 

Dr. Chumley continues to run from his demons, his conscience.

 

harvey70.jpg

 

Dr. Chumley is in denial. He has NOT accepted reality, whereas Elwood

HAS. Catch the irony?

 

harvey71.jpg

 

Dr. Chumley, who is the most ironic character in the film, does the most ironic

thing in the film, he sets off the alarm while looking to escape HIS crazy

house. Yep, the head of the crazy house is also crazy.

 

harvey73.jpg

 

Dr. Chumley eventually becomes the patient to Elwood's doctor. For, you see,

Elwood is the bar room psychologist. He's amongst the people, not locked away

in some crazy house.

 

harvey72.jpg

 

Elwood says the reason they don't come back is envy. Maybe in some cases, but

I don't think it always is. It strikes me that this is Elwood's defense mechanism to

think this way. Or maybe he's right, and later on, these "cases" Elwood takes on

realize that maybe that guy had something going for him with that imaginary rabbit.

 

Elwood's usage of the word "envy" is something that still remains elusive to me. Could

it be that others are envious of his acceptance of who he is as a person, that he has

accepted his being "crazy"? Elwood has chosen to live a life of honesty. He has

stopped lying to himself.

 

The hard part for me with Harvey is that the big white pooka seems like a crutch

for Elwood. And I can't get around this conundrum.

 

I believe there is some truth with this. But is Harvey real or is he just an outward

extension of Elwood's conscience, his inner peace?

 

I disagree that Elwood never did anything of substance. It also depends on whose

definition of "substance" you use. We are using Judge Gaffney's idea of "substance"

here. Gaffney might only think that being a judge or higher was a role of substance,

for all we know. I suspect that is the case.

 

That is a very good point.

 

Elwood himself says, "For years I was smart" and "I used to know a lot of dances,

the Flea Hop, and..... what's it....the Black Bottom, the Varsity Drag....... " I take this

to mean he used to "dance to someone else's tune".

 

That's very interesting. It's something that I never considered. You may be very right

about that.

 

I think he DID go to Yale, and he was this close to becoming a judge

(perhaps he already was a lawyer), or a politician, perhaps. But something stopped

him. Perhaps someone made him an offer or bribe? Or he realized that the people he

was trying to help did not benefit the way he wanted them to? I really don't know. But

it was killing him. Elwood was in that bar with Ed Hickey for a reason - he had a big

problem of some kind - because nobody comes into a bar with anything small. I suspect

that his job was killing him, and he took to drink. I don't know how long he spent

drinking, perhaps he killed his own career through drink long before Harvey appeared,

but I don't know. I believe we are never informed.

 

So do you believe Judge Gaffney would look down upon Elwood being a lawyer? Elwood

is doing nothing right now, so wouldn't Judge Gaffney mention something about Elwood

possibly returning to what he used to do instead of saying, "he could've done anything,

been anything"? Being a lawyer in the past would be a huge step up from doing nothing.

 

Perhaps Dowd did NOT drink to excess, he just became fascinated with bars and

people. What better place to find out what people want, their hopes and dreams, than

in a bar? And he just decided to listen for a change. And it gave him something that

he never had. Warmth. Human contact without barriers.

 

I think that is very possible. We never see Elwood take a drink. Veta really doesn't

know the truth with Elwood, so I don't believe her saying he drinks in excess. I think

that is her own active imagination at work. Elwood does admit to drinking, but is he

telling the truth? I'm of the belief Elwood DID drink in excess but that he doesn't now.

 

I believe the following is a very important sequence in the film:

 

harvey75.jpg

 

harvey76.jpg

 

harvey77.jpg

 

harvey78.jpg

 

When asked if he drinks, Elwood's gut reaction is to look down and DENY it. Then

he looks up to Harvey and then looks at Dr. Sanderson, telling him the truth, that he

does drink. Harvey forces Elwood to face REALITY. The "insane" guy is the one

who is living in reality while the "sane" ones are living in fantasy, in denial.

 

And Harvey shows up as Dowd is escorting Ed Hickey to his cab. Why did he not

pick Ed Hickey as his friend? I believe it is because Elwood is the perfect mix of "oh,

so smart, and oh, so pleasant".

 

I don't think ol' Ed Hickey could hear or see Harvey. He was spiffed.

 

Elwood is an observer. He WANTS to help people. He wants to know

people. Everyone else in the play wants to help himself, except for Nurse Kelly,

and Veta at the end when she decides she wants Elwood to stay the way he is.

 

I definitely believe Elwood is an observer. He also chooses to see the good in people

versus the bad. Since he is so observant of humanity, he is better equipped to help

them compared to the professionals. He is a business, he's just not getting paid for

what he does. He does it for free.

 

So why does Elwood ask, "What do you have in mind?" when someone asks if he

needs any help? Is he looking for someone like himself, who wants just what he

wants, to actually help people?

 

I think he's honestly curious to know what they have in mind. But I do like that he still

makes it about the other person. "What do YOU have in mind?" He's still being unselfish.

 

He's looking for someone, but I am not sure that it is always Harvey. And of course,

no one ever answers his question.

 

I do believe Elwood is lonely. This is why I sense sadness in the film.

 

I liked the usage of gates in the film. Both the Dowd residence and Chumley's Rest are

gated. Gates are to keep things out or... keep things in. Has Elwood lived a sheltered

life? How about the others? Is Dr. Sanderson living a sheltered life? How about Veta

and Myrtle Mae? Mr. Meegles served some time, but aren't we all? We place a lot

bars around us, don't we?

 

harvey79.jpg

 

I love this shot. Elwood comes off very childlike. He's enjoying the ride and is

enamored by the gate.

 

harvey80.jpg

 

This shot makes Chumley's Rest look like a prison:

 

harvey81.jpg

 

Could a gate also come to represent one's thinking, one's mind? As Mr.

Shimelplatzer says, "It's very simple. See?"

 

harvey82.jpg

 

harvey83.jpg

 

And I love this shot of Dr. Chumley nearly falling over his sign:

 

harvey84.jpg

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