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1. There is a definite attraction between the two characters, with Eddy’s character being much more open about this attraction and McDonald’s character trying to act disinterested but failing to do so. Her reaction when he admits to using tIs song with any girl with a 3 syllable name gives her away.

2.i have to nay seen brief clips of these two actors, and they are always singing.

3. Relationships of this era seem stereotypical. Men could play around until they fall in love and then they stay true. Women were either good or bad-and it was the good girl who got the man.

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     I'm not sure if I have ever watched one of their movies, they always seemed a little to "goodie two shoes" to me. Now that I have seen these clips, however, I may take a look. The scene in the canoe conveys their flirtatious side, especially when she calls him out on the wording of his song that he has just made up especially for her. She is not going to fall for his charm, just like Maude!

   In the second scene, she is obviously and painfully out of her element in this saloon setting. While her singing is beautiful, it is clearly not enough to hold anyones attention in this place. When the local "bad" girl shows her how it's done, Rose Marie tries, but cannot bring herself to sing in this way. The Morality Code is in plain sight here, the contrast between the good girl, and the bad girl is obvious to see. 

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As far as the interaction between them it is very subtle.  He is definitely trying to woo her over in the first scene and yet, almost feels sorry for her in the second scene.  While she is quite funny trying to mimic the saloon singer, she is clearly out of place and you are waiting for him to "come to her rescue".  

 

I have scene them both in other films, mostly together and I did see  them recently in Maytime and really enjoyed it.

As far as the relationships, they are far more innocent than pre film code.  Everything is presumed, and a kiss is considered almost daring.  These are really about the music as far as I'm concerned.  The stories are syrupy sweet and nice and seem to portray an more "magical" quality to the relationships.  The lighting, the scenery, the staging, all portray an innocent romantic image that clearly was to transport the movie goer to a place as far away from where they were and leave them with a sigh at the end.

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Weird confession from someone who loves Movie Musicals: I've never seen a full musical film with Eddy and MacDonald!

I feel quite ashamed, but now it's definitely in my plans to get acquainted with their filmography. 

The two clips showed some really great interactions between the characters. What strikes me the most is the amazing chemistry between the two. Although I've seen nothing but those two clips, I find myself rooting for them.

As seems to be the norm in the films of that era, everything is very proper and pristine. No grandiose gestures, no talking about emotions, and the latter are downplayed with jokes and quips, like during the 1st clip. And, as expected, courtship takes the form of a man as the pursuer, and the woman as the reluctant object of his affection.  

 

There are also hints of promiscuity in the lyrics and the conversation between the two, or at least a slight nod to a wandering heart. But it's treated with a smile and a wink, as if it's expected, but unworthy (or, due to the Code, perhaps 'inadequate') of much exploration.

The 2nd clip is definitely more interesting due to the expressiveness of both actors. You can feel their frustration and their anguish without having to rely on heavy dialogue or text frames. It's all in their eyes and gestures. I imagine that by freeing the image from the shackles of sound and text, creators had the chance to explore the little aspects of a performance which managed to communicate thoughts and feelings, even in silence.  

As for the male/female dynamic, it's usually dichotomic in these films, with each of them representing a different side of a coin. And as Altman points out, I imagine -without having watched the rest of the film just yet- that the merry unification of both manages to solve every conflict, and wraps up the story with a nice little bow.

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First off let me say I have never seen either of them before.

I love their interaction. It was fun, flirty and very innocent. They seem to like each other but they don't want each other to know.

I think the male/female relationships in movie musicals are very innocent. They always seem to end up together.

 

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I have to admit that I've never understood even a scintilla of why the Nelson Eddy/Janette MacDonald films were so popular. My disdain bothers me, because I have some musical training, I've studied some opera, and I'm devoted to the Freed films and many others as well. But these guys... The only thing I can imagine is that this was the sole way for people in small towns to see and hear artists with such fine voices. But question 2 grabs me:

If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.

Janette MacDonald is simply wonderful in San Francisco, with Gable and Tracy. It's decidedly NOT a musical, but there are some slam dunk songs, this time framed as nightclub performances. MacDonald, I think, it perfectly positioned as an innocent ingenue who is drawn into Gable's more earthy and sordid world, and in the context of the film, while he draws her down, she (and Tracy) lift him up. It's not so much about the music of course, but 82 years after the film was made, the rousing rendition of the title song still rocks the house, and Ms. MacDonald makes a pretty darned good torch singer! It fascinates me that both films were directed by "Woody" VanDyke because the styles seem so incredibly different.

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My own observations and answers to the questions are very much an echo of all that has been said already.  For a change of pace, I was moved to pick up my copy of Pierre Berton's "Hollywood's Canada", to re-read what he'd written about the various versions of Rose Marie and how the Mounties were portrayed in each.  At one point he quotes a letter written by the commissioner of the force, who allows that it might be reasonable for a Mountie to be portrayed as chasing down his man whilst singing to the criminal's sister as something that might "appear to be needed ...from the point of view of pleasing an audience...".  He goes on to comment of PM Pierre Trudeau's (father of PM Justin Trudeau) who said in 1969 that Canada was "about to shed her "Rose Marie image". 

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1. What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.

 

The thing that jumped out for me is the typical depiction of the woman as having so much better things on her mind than to pay attention to the latest man's feeble attempts to woe or impress her. She humors him and seemingly entertains herself with his attempts...perhaps in a show of her own focus, strength or self-reliance. 

But later the tides are turned and the man catches the woman in a moment of embarrassment, weakness or vulnerability. Sides the woman would rather not admit exist much less showcase...at least not until SHE'S ready.

2.  If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.

Unfortunately, I don't think I've seen either of these performers in other films or shows. Not that I can recall at this time.

3.  What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?

The dance movements of the other singer who comes up to assist Rose Marie are tame by today's comparison...especially for my Gen-X eyes. But I was actually a little shocked to see the camera capture them. Her pelvis and hips jutting forward in what's clearly a sexually suggestive move. And the dress she wore...made of what looks like a satin material was glued to body and not in a figure-flattering way...but in a way meant to highlight parts of her body. The dress...the tossing of money as she 'performs'....even the way she rushes up the help Rose Marie and not lose the audience, at the suggestion of the male character (perhaps owner of the establishment)...all perpetuate the treatment of women as objects of desire or cattle to be prodded around until they've lost their value.

 

Side note:  This has further inspired me to read up on the Hollywood Film Code and its impact on the way movies were made.

 

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The interaction between the two characters in these scenes is quite different. In the first, she acts very aloof and not impressed...until he starts singing. Once she understands that he can sing she starts to warm up to him until he blows it by showing her how he can fit any name into the song. He obviously is interested in her. When he sees that she is warming up to the idea he teases her by playing the name game. 

The second scene is much different. She has made herself vulnerable by putting herself in a situation in which she could never feel comfortable. Once he sees her you can tell that he is sad for her, even embarrassed for her. She, of course, is mortified when she sees him watching. She is obviously miserable and embarrassed.

It seems that in the first clip she is in charge of the situation. In the second clip she definitely is NOT in charge. 

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The interactions are mutual for both of them, clearly you can see that there is an attraction as Eddy attempts to swoon MacDonald with his operatic love song. He is clearly trying to prove that he is a 'catch' as much as the next guy. Eddy is very forward as he fishes for information on the competition. During this scene, Eddy enhances his emotion by the way he moves and tilts his head. MacDonald does the same but with her hands. How she clasps them in interest and hope and when she opens her arms and moves her hands in a playful manner, one in the air and the other in the water. At one point her facial expression shows a 'like' towards him and the song, which quickly changes when she realizes what he appears to be doing with the words. When she calls him out they both make light of it, but she displays her irritation by mocking his song. When we cut to the saloon, we can see that MacDonald is clearly a bit out of her comfort zone and is not able to reign in the audience. A good girl is not as attractive in a space of that nature, when there are bad girls around. You can see the frustration and desperation in her actions and tone. Even when the pianist encourages her with a new song and words of advice, more pep and pip. We see the opposite, when the bad girl steps in and takes over. Though MacDonald attempts to copy her mannerisms and singing, MacDonald's singing style and code clothes prevent her from being able to shimmy, shake and belt the song out as the bad girl. So, she slides back defeated and humiliated, while Eddy watches displaying similar expressions and concern. When their eyes meet Eddy has a small smile on his face and that is the last straw. She storms out, which is expected - but he slowly walks having small conversations along the way. 

If I remember correctly the movies I have seen had sparks of interest, mutual attraction at a distance and a struggle which always lead to them ending up together. The studio knew what they had and played it out for the audience. 

It showed that there were standards. Attraction between the sexes was nice and almost sexless. Males were the pursuers, females were pursued. There was clear line between 'good' boys and girls vs. bad, which included mannerisms, actions, locations and dress. The saloon in the 2nd clip shows the line. Eddy with his unwrinkled uniform, clean shaven face and kempt hair. MacDonald's attire, singing style and mannerisms and her complete opposite in Gilda. The two gangsters and the intoxicated people. You can still see this in today's cinema - though I'm not sure how much the audience really pays attention to it.

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What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.

There is the male who pursues and is not ashamed to say a different girls name to his song and the female who barely notices and yet flirts with him in a teasing way in clip #1. In clip #2 she tries to make some money and is unable to get the attention of the people in the bar and though she gives her best try she knows it is futile.  Then “he” comes in and she is so embarrassed and wanting to disappear and hide.

If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.

Yes in the movie Sweethearts, Maytime and Bitter Sweet.  I can see why even today if the formula works WORK IT! It is obvious the chemistry these two had for each other and the camera.

What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?

These clips show how good girls are those who will get married and have children and live respectable lives. If you are the “bad” girl you work in the bars till your looks are faded living paycheck to paycheck.  The Hollywood Film Code always rewarded those who were “good and respectful”. I remember the movie Lydia with Merle Oberon and Joseph Cotton how Lydia has a love affair with Allan Marshall and he does a wham bam thank you mam and Joseph Cotton wanted to marry her. She tells him no because I must pay for my sin.  The Hollywood Film Code always made sure that “bad” people paid the price. In the movie Pretty Woman why couldn’t a prostitute marry a rich handsome trick. Times sure have changed!

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1.  What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.

In the first scene, they barely look at one another, yet are flirtatious.  I think they play off of one another marvelously.  Nelson Eddy is rather stiff, but endearingly so, in this scene.  Jeannette McDonald, on the other hand, is a bit more relaxed and funny and sets up Eddy's joke delivery perfectly.

2.  If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them. 

OK.  If you can't tell from my first answer, I am a huge fan of Nelson Eddy and Jeannette McDonald.  My favorite of their movies is "Maytime" which reduces me to tears at the end every time.  I am a bit of an incurable romantic.  To me, their chemistry jumps off the screen.  Yes, they are prim and proper.  However, while you don't necessarily see them being overtly physical with one another, you hear it.  They are funny together, endearing, and altogether delightful!

3.  What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code? 

It is clear that they show a dichotomy of women.  1) You can be prim and proper, wear a high neckline, and get the good guy in the end.  2) Or, you can shimmy and wear skin-tight clothing.  You may be popular, and people may throw money at you, but you won't get the good guy in the end.  You choose.  Also, it seemed clear that they were suggesting that you can try to change your style to fit in with the crowd, but you'll only be embarrassed in the end. 

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1. What I notice about Nelson Eddy and Jeanette MacDonald in "Rose-Marie" (1936) is that in the first scene, I feel that Eddy's characterization of Sgt. Bruce is showing a sense of interest in MacDonald's characterization of Marie de Flor in the film, Sgt. Bruce (Eddy) is displaying confidence throughout the scene while Rose seems to be shy towards Sgt. Bruce.  In the second scene, I feel that Sgt. Bruce (Eddy) is not amused by the competing singer; who tried to upstage/humiliate Rose (MacDonald).

2. In addition to "Rose-Marie," I have seen both Nelson Eddy and Jeanette MacDonald in another one of the duo's MGM features, "Naughty Marietta" (1935).  While their singing is still top-notch, the setting is different, where MacDonald's characterization of Marietta is running away to escape a pre-arranged marriage in France.  She escapes France by finding a new love interest in colonial New Orleans, Eddy's characterization of Warrington.  I have also seen Eddy in a non-MGM feature, the landmark Universal Technicolor re-make of "Phantom of the Opera" (as Anatole Garron, with Claude Rains), without MacDonald.

3. I see that Eddy is trying to attract MacDonald's character in some form, most possibly through the power of song with the standard, typical romantic/love triangle formula in feature films of that era.  In terms of the Hays/Breen motion picture code, you can see that the costuming for Rose (MacDonald) and the competing bar singer are not revealing; compared to costume/wardrobe selection in pre-code musicals.  

Not sure if this would apply, but I believe that Nelson Eddy and Jeanette MacDonald's characterizations in "Rose Marie" might have inspired cartoonist Jay Ward to create the characters of "Dudley Do-Right" and "Nell" for his celebrated "Rocky & Bullwinkle" cartoon series.

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1. I notice the bickering quality these two characters have in these scenes. Although they argue (seemingly often), they will most likely fall for one another in the end. This allows for witty dialogue to keep it light and humorous, but it also gives a chance for good romantic scenes at the end of the film.

2. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen these actors in a full film yet! These scenes inspire me to go watch this one.

3. These clips tell me that during that era, the male was always supposed to pursue the female in romantic relationships. It’s a similar scenario with Astaire and Rogers. The male sees the female, decides to chase her, only to discover she isn’t interested. Later, something happens to make her fall for him, and they usually live happily ever after. Under the production code, of course everything was very proper, with cute and funny flirtations.

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Until now, my only perception of Jeanette MacDonald came from the way that Judy Garland pokes fun of her during the concert that she performed with a very young Liza Minnelli at the London Palladium during the late 1960s. Until I watched the second Daily Dose of Delight, I had no idea why Garland clearly had no use for MacDonald. Now I understand completely: MacDonald technically may have had a fine operatic voice, but she had no idea about how to reach an audience emotionally, as Garland (and Minnelli) did so powerfully.

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  1. What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.

What is striking about the interactions between the two leads in these clips is how little they actually interact. The second clip does not involve  any direct interactions at all, merely significant looks from across the room. Obviously in the first clip the two share more of a physical space, yet their interactions remain distanced because of their body language. Eddy sings basically an entire love song to his beloved's back. MacDonald turns around to face him a few times, but the majority of the scene is spent with her face turned away making faces he can't see.

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  1. What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.          Canoe Scene:  Flirting, Coy/Coquette, Innocence.   Scene #2- class segregation, intimidation
  2. If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.    I've seen most of their movies, and they pretty much follow the same formula with an opera musical style.  You know what you are getting when you watch their movies.
  3. What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era?      Traditional male/female roles, strong heroic man rescues beautiful helpless female, in America you can marry up!
  4. What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?  Morality, purity, honesty, hard work ethic, good clean fun!

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Rose Marie

1) This clip shows 2 people thrown together and trying to make the best of it. Marie was not interested,(thinking of another man) while Bruce was throwing out all the signals with nothing to show forth. (like a 1st date from hell). She gave a little interest, when he serenaded her. But shrugged him off, taking it as just a playful flirtation.

The next clip, shows how Marie is out of her element in this run down bar. Trying to sing these upbeat/sassy saloon songs like an opera. It was terrible. But you do what you must, to make money. Upstaged by another gal who stole the performance-and her "tips". All while trying to hide from Bruce with shame written all over her face.

2) N/A. I am not familiar with the 2 actors. Need to see this and other movies with them as the stars

3) The depictions, show that with the new codes in place "courting" is shown as very innocent. Not overly suggestive. Men would show interests. But still had to do some work, to win women over. Nothing is rushed. 

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The title song was a favorite of my dad's. He LOVED that song and sometimes sang it to me when I was very little. But his voice was so bad that it was comical, not on purpose, and I always dissolved into a fit of giggle...or so my parents told me. Knowing my dad's voice, it's likely the truth.

I think I've seen either Jeanette MacDonald and/or Nelson Eddy but I can't name anything right off.

I thought it was sort of telling that while Bruce was singing to Rose Marie and she was facing away from him she looked beguiled and intrigued, with a little pleased smile on her lips, but when she turned to face him she changed her face to portray indifference and even annoyance that he was not getting her to her destination quickly enough. Heaven forbid she let him see that he has piqued her interest.

Later, in the saloon, she looks shocked and dismayed to see him come in and sit down so she turns away to hide her face. When he first notices who the singer is he seems pleased, but as her discomfort and embarrassment become increasingly evident I think he starts to feel uncomfortable on her behalf. It was both comical and humiliating to see the way she tried to imitate the other singer's motions, and in her awkwardness she had difficulty keeping the temp so she was always behind. On one or two occasions it worked, sounding like a back-up singer repeating a line, but most it just seemed like she was totally out of step and out of place.

What struck me about the man-woman interaction, particularly in the saloon scene, was the fact that here was a demure (implied virgin) young lady completely out of her element and a man who treats women differently. With Rose Marie he is the courteous gentleman with a hands-off approach. With the saloon singer he has his hand on her arm, totally safe and mild by today's standards but with an implication that he has and/or will put his hands on other places. It reminded me of the Scarlett-Rhett-Belle triangle and the polar opposite ways Rhett apporaches the two women in his life. But I do think that with Nelson Eddy/Bruce, at the end of the day he will marry the innocent girl and the saloon singer will be a thing of the past.

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1 hour ago, pkdado said:

     I'm not sure if I have ever watched one of their movies, they always seemed a little to "goodie two shoes" to me. Now that I have seen these clips, however, I may take a look. The scene in the canoe conveys their flirtatious side, especially when she calls him out on the wording of his song that he has just made up especially for her. She is not going to fall for his charm, just like Maude!

   In the second scene, she is obviously and painfully out of her element in this saloon setting. While her singing is beautiful, it is clearly not enough to hold anyones attention in this place. When the local "bad" girl shows her how it's done, Rose Marie tries, but cannot bring herself to sing in this way. The Morality Code is in plain sight here, the contrast between the good girl, and the bad girl is obvious to see. 

I also noticed, and forgot to put in my own post, how at one point in the saloon she tentatively runs her hands down the front of her body like she has seen the saloon singer doing, and then get s a shocked "Did I just do that?" look on her face and quickly backs up to the piano and out of the limelight in embarrassment.

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For those who are interested in the video "I Never Will Forget Jeanette MacDonald" featuring Judy Garland, click on the following link:

http://thegreatkh.blogspot.com/2012/08/i-never-will-forget-jeanette.html

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1) What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.

In the first clip, there is an obvious flirtation between Bruce and Marie, although Bruce is more upfront with than Marie. It is clear that she starts to be fascinated by his serenading her but she remains unyielding and unimpressed. There is a close up of MacDonald as she becomes a little moved by it, which is one of the first clues that she is slowly warming up to him. 

In the second clip, there are glances between them, but that's it. She is really embarrassed that he is there, and that he saw her at a failed attempt to win over the audience. He does feel sympathy for her, and he does want to do something about it, but he keeps at bay because he may not want to scare her or scare her off.

2) If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.

Nelson Eddy is a little familiar to me, but I have never seen any of films, but judging by his baritone voice, he looked and seemed like he was a popular actor/singer with handsome features and talent. I've only seen Jeanette MacDonald in one film, SAN FRANCISCO (1936). I do remember that she did overdo the melodrama a little too much, but then she won me over near the end with a rousing song to lift up everyone's spirit after the earthquake that took place in the second half of that film.

3) What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?

During that time, male/female relationships were a 'look but don't touch' scenario. There could be chemistry and romantic feelings, but that was as far as they could go. In terms of the Code, men and women could kiss, but for a specific amount of time. Also, the men were usually the pursuers, with or without success; the women were polite, virginal, and non-flirtatious. There was a playful innocence taking place at that time, even if it was sometimes too much or too little

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To touch on 1. And 3. It’s typical that she’s clearly a bit embarrassed to be seen there but doesn’t seem to think why is he there with 2 women having off him, clearly a regular and she’s not at all bothered by that. I haven’t seen the scene that follows maybe that is addressed but that 1-way street for seedy places and activities is a familiar trope.  

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1. What do you notice about the interaction between the characters in these two scenes? Please give specific examples.

It is fairly obvious from the canoe scene that the mountie is going to woo the girl, but she'll reject his advances until she eventually comes to realize she really does love him. This same trope is copied countless times in film from the silent era to the present day. 

Furthermore, the saloon scene establishes that Jeanette MacDonald is the demure, safe, good girl type. She doesn't fit in with the rough crowd of prospectors and mountain men. Eddy is clearly drawn to her, but he keeps his distance, even when she is clearly out of her element.

2. If you have seen either or both of these actors in other films or television shows, please share your perceptions about them.

Unfortunately, I have not scene either actor in another film. Hopefully this course will help rectify that glaring issue.

3. What do these clips tell you about the male/female relationships as they are depicted in the films during this era? What norms might you expect are supported under the Hollywood Film Code?

Everything is supposed to be chaste. A polite courtship. Marriage is the ultimate goal, the man to be the provider, and the woman to be the happy homemaker. Nearly everything of the late '30s through the '50s was geared to this end. There is no upheaval of the status quo, everyone conforms to this platonic chaste ideal of courtship before marriage. 

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I think there is possibly the very common undertone of these romantic comedy musicals that the female lead does not necessarily know how to pick the right person for her. The male lead, Nelson Eddie, will explain to her why she's with the wrong guy in a charming yet condescending way and although the hate each other at first, soon they will come to realize they love each other just before the credits roll. The comfort and familiarity must have been great for audiences during the Depression. You went to the movies, especially MGM musics expecting to see a happy ending for the lovers and that's what you get. This also seems very much like a musical the LB would have liked, good, wholesome and for the family...and also very classy and glamorous and easy to control. 

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