Movie Rambles

[rohanaka]

Does she ?

 

Gulp...

 

(April... now you HAVE to tell us.. .PM if you don't want to spoil in public.... ha)

[JackFavell]

yeah, PM us....

 

Maybe he gets injured....

 

Message was edited by: JackFavell

[MissGoddess]

MAJOR AWFUL TERRRIBLE ROTTEN SPOILER AHEAD FOR THE NOVEL OF KINGS GO FORTH

 

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Does she ?

 

Yes. I was SO upset when I read it. SO upset. And the poor schnook doesn't

even find it out until practically the last paragraph. So I'd have read ALL the way

to the VERY end, with hope in my heart, only to have had a DAGGER stabbed

in it at the last possible moment.

 

What a HORRID book. The movie is MUCH better.

[MissGoddess]

SPOILER!!!!!!!!

 

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> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> yeah, PM us....

>

> Maybe he gets injured....

>

> Message was edited by: JackFavell

 

As in the movie, he loses an arm, but in the

book he also loses an eye. Awful, ROTTEN book! ha!

[rohanaka]

OH MY GOLLY.... throw that book in the TRASH.. ha. (how very UNFAIR) I am beside myself...

 

Does he ever get any sign that she finally came to love him??????????????????? (I just can't stop, can I?? ha)

[JackFavell]

AAAAGGGHHHHHH. That's awful. I didn't think that could possibly be how it ended..... poor Frank. I mean, Sam.

[rohanaka]

This is what happens when you let a MAN write a LOVE story............................. BAH!!!!!!

[MissGoddess]

SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

> {quote:title=rohanaka wrote:}{quote}

> OH MY GOLLY.... throw that book in the TRASH.. ha. (how very UNFAIR) I am beside myself...

>

> Does he ever get any sign that she finally came to love him??????????????????? (I just can't stop, can I?? ha)

 

 

From the little I gleaned from the last chapter, no. I am guessing she

killed herself over Britt after finding out he lied to her. If I DO read the

rest of the (ROTTEN) book, I'll let you know. But I'm too broken hearted

already.

 

I'm bushed, ladies and gents. But it's been mighty fun tonight.

I now go forth to bed.

[JackFavell]

I am running out of steam too. Nighty night, G. Sleep tight.

 

Now if I wake up at three in the morning, am I gonna find you on here, Kath? You better get some sleep, whooshy.

[rohanaka]

April.. you will have a hard time reading the rest of that book because I am coming to get it and toss it into our outdoor fireplace chimney thingie HA. (did I mention BAH!!!!!) ha.

 

Well... put it all out of your head for now... sweet dreams, youngun'! :-)

[rohanaka]

Now if I wake up at three in the morning, am I gonna find you on here, Kath?

 

Ha... stranger things have happened.. but I doubt it tonight.. I have been paying TOO high a price lately for all those toothpicks I have been needing to hold my eyes open...

 

Get some rest my little OK KID. and I am going to HOPE to do the same.... eventually. ha.

[JackFavell]

 

Nighty night, movieman. :x

[JackFavell]

Nighty night, Kath. Sweet dreams.

[butterscotchgreer]

good evening wendy and everyone of my other good buddies!

 

*I never liked late classes either. The worst one for me was a math class that ran from 6:00 to 9:00 at night.... yuccckkkk. There is no WAY anyone could learn math concepts that late at night! Oy*!

 

my latest class this semester goes until 10:00 at night and i dont like it one bit. its my front office procedure class....its about how to run a hotel, but i dont ever want to run a hotel. its part of my degree plan. i wanted to take another class this semester, but it went until 100 at night and there was noooo way i was going to do that in the neighborhood the campus is. its bad enough i have a class until 10.

 

do you mind if i just pass on replying to yalls posts on Kings Go Forth? i agree with everything yall said and you did a really great job explaining your views and angles, but im super sleepy. can i possibly just pick up on reviewing for Love Letters when it starts? will yall forgive me possibly?!! maybe if i give yall a puppy dog pout? heehee! i really hate to do that though, i promise ill never skip one again! honest to goodness, i wont!

[molo14]

*Jackie wrote: Now if I wake up at three in the morning, am I gonna find you on here, Kath?*

 

*Rohanaka wrote: Ha... stranger things have happened.. but I doubt it tonight.. I have been paying TOO high a price lately for all those toothpicks I have been needing to hold my eyes open...*

 

Rohanaka, you can't help yourself, the night calls out to you. Surrender!!

 

By the way folks, ignore the PM's I finally figured it out after the third read through. I'm slow like that.

[JackFavell]

Molo,

 

oops.

 

OK then, ignore my PM. That's what I get for responding to my PM's before I check movie rambles!

 

Scotchie,

 

Od course we'll forgive you. We know you have a busy schedule. But you better show up for Love Letters! If it's anything like the great ramble you gave in KGF, it will give us tons to think about...

 

I am glad you are not taking a class till one oclock! What kind of crazy schedule is that? And if you are out of class at ten, make sure to travel with a group or at least a buddy, please.

[HollywoodGolightly]

Glad to see some more ramblings on Kings Go Forth. It really is an awesome movie, and becomes all the more awesome the more I ponder about it.

[rohanaka]

Rohanaka, you can't help yourself

 

HA.... sad but true..... (but look who's talking, Mr."I stay on my computer til SUNRISE") ha.

 

However.. I DID manage to resist the call and logged off around 1:30 (my time) and then more or less CRASHED. I was exhausted from all the horrific emotion of April's book spoiler!!! (HA) I will only have to use 4 TOOTHPICKS to hold my poor little eyeballs open today instead of my usual 10... ha.

[FrankGrimes]

SPOILERS GO FORTH

 

Trying to catch up with Kings Go Forth is quite a chore. So this will be my final

ramble for, ohhhh, about six months. Ahhhhhhhh, that feels sooooooooooo

goooooooooooood!

 

I wanted to reply to Jackie's terrific words first because she mentioned a few things

that really struck my fancy and it will help me get into the flow. I hope to reply to

others, as well. I happen to agree with Movieman... a lot. I'm sure that will cause

him to doubt his lot.

 

Sinatra was achingly lonely.... I like him best this way and I agree that his acting

here is subtle and comprehending in a way that Maggio is not. He is NEVER over

the top, NEVER too big for the scene he is in.

 

I completely agree with you. I really like Sinatra like this. He plays emotional hurt as

good as anyone. Heck, I'd go as far as saying he's the best I've seen. I connect with his

kind of pain in films like Kings Go Forth, Some Came Running, and

The Manchurian Candidate.

 

His backstory is everything... and I loved how Maven put it - he has a chip on his

shoulder, maybe even before Curtis shows up. He thinks of himself as a loser, therefore

he is a loser.

 

I didn't feel the chip on Sam's (Frank Sinatra) shoulder as much as the rest of you

did. I feel he is mostly lonely and that he believes he's become a hopeless case. He

does think lowly of himself, but I think that stems from his loneliness more than

anything else. A woman would lift him up. How many times have I said on this

board, "the power of woman"?

 

 

The one thing he's got (Curtis as well) is the army. He's good at that. But it isn't enough

for a man so deep. I like Sinatra's openness with Natalie Wood... he is not brooding and

intense with her, only when he is without her does this creep into his character. He opens

up with her. There is no stereotypical John Garfield type portrayal here. It's all honest

and more than a little painfiul to watch.

 

That was wonderfully said, Little Red Buick. I thought these words to be very important in

understanding Sam:

 

 

 

 

I believe those words tell you that Sam is looking for something different in his life, something

far more meaningful than what the other guys are seeking. In fact, you could say, Sam

was ALWAYS looking for this in his life. He's completely the opposite of Britt

(Tony Curtis). Britt is NEVER looking for something meaningful.

 

A lack of self-esteem with women is something Sam struggles with:

 

 

 

 

It never occurred to me to doubt Natalie Wood's casting, or her acting ability. While

I was worrying over her french accent at the beginning (it turned out to be flawless),

apparently some reviewers of the time were worrying over what she LOOKED like. Stupid

me. I thought she was as good here as I have ever seen her. She opens herself up to

everything and we anguish over it, like Sam. Again, backstory is everything.... where

you come from is more important than who you are now. I liked that she was proud

of her father and her background and didn't seem to realize why she shouldn't be.

 

This is the first "adult" Natalie Wood film that I have seen in its entirety; I've seen a little

of Splendor in the Grass. I thought she was okay in Kings Go Forth. I wasn't

"taken by her" but I did like her. My biggest problems with the film were the racial

component and the switch from Sam to Britt by Monique (Natalie Wood). Both felt very

abrupt and forced. I felt both could have been done much better.

 

Tony Curtis breezed into this movie and blew me away. Not with his trupet playing, but

with his acting. He gave a pretty near perfect performance as a heel who knows he's

a heel. Why did I end up liking him at the end? There is not a reason in the world that

this guy should end up on my good side, but somehow, Curtis does this. Maybe

because of his continuing self awareness? He was able to overcome his background

(they all had to do this) in a truly strong and positive way in the army, and yet, he

could not overcome his deepest fault, his own shallowness. And he KNOWS this.

His speech to Frankie about how everyone envies him, but he envies Sinatra for

his CHARACTER was moving and real. I love Tony Curtis for his self knowledge... and

he can play fatuous better than anybody. What surprised me was his ease, turning

on a dime to play that one scene.... you know the scene - in which he tells Monique

that it was a thrill for him, nothing more. He plays it on so many levels at the same

time. He is brutally honest, not even attempting to be mean, but cutting her to the

heart with his horrible thoughts. And at this point, he doesn't even know he is

horrible. He actually expects Sam to understand. He's a liar and a user and he

thinks it's funny. He's like a kid who has no idea of the consequences of his

actions. Well, kids are cruel. How is it then, that later we see underneath that

to the insecure kid wishing he were a better person?

 

That was excellent! I really liked your analogy to a kid. I definitely got that vibe with

Britt. He really doesn't understand the feelings of others... like a kid. You're right on it.

 

I'm not a big Tony Curtis fan, but when he plays the heel, like this, I end up liking him

more.

 

The thing with Britt is, when is he EVER telling the truth? He's a chameleon. I've known

a couple guys like this. They are very good at figuring out what each person wishes to

hear from them and then they feed them. Some people are completely fooled by such

characters, while others see right through them... almost immediately. They don't stand

for anything because they are always looking to be like someone else. The "Me, Too-ers!"

They are the phony exclamation users.

 

Britt is going to feed Sam what HE wants to hear. What Britt thinks Sam needs to

hear from him is, "I'm sorry." He needs to sell Sam on his being "truly" sorry.

 

"Britt" is a great, great character. I really enjoyed watching him. What a terrific

contrast to Sam. It reminded me of "Uncle Charlie" (Joseph Cotten) and Jack

(Macdonald Carey) in Shadow of a Doubt.

 

I love this small little exchange between Monique and Sam. It says so much.:

 

 

 

I also loved the contrast of the Colonel (Karl Swenson) and his wife with Britt and

Monique. The following words are powerful and rich with honest emotion:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The colonel's wife preferred to stay home and spend the evening with her husband. That is

what brought her happiness. And you can see how much the Colonel misses those times

by the pain on his face and within his eyes. He is just as lonely as Sam is. The colonel

and his wife are an older couple in love. Real love. Monique and Britt are young and, well...

 

 

[HollywoodGolightly]

In reading a few more reactions to Tony Curtis' role in the movie, I think that the most interesting performances he ever gave were those that were supposed to be morally ambiguous or simply a character with dubious ethical sense, as he did also in Sweet Smell of Success. Playing a nice guy, he could probably do in his sleep, and he was good at it, too. But there was more to him than that, and that's something I didn't really learn until just the last couple of years.

 

I'm not going so far as to say this has been one of my favorite Curtis performances, but probably one of the most memorable ones. I really felt surprised when Sam hears from the other officer about the wedding license. It really was shocking when he callously dismissed Monique as just a "different" kind of girl, as though the novelty value was the only thing that had made the relationship interesting to him.

 

Obviously, there is a difference between someone who just says what others want to hear in order to get ahead or gain an advantage, and those who try to tailor the message to the listener out of courtesy and politeness. We will always have too many of the former, and perhaps never enough of the latter. I don't think it's so much a matter of Britt not caring about others' feelings, but caring more about what he wants for himself.

[butterscotchgreer]

hey everyone!

 

i just got home and am not tired enough to go to bed yet and i know i said i would drop the conversation of Kings Go Forth, but i just had to say a few things.....heehee!

 

 

*A lack of self-esteem with women is something Sam struggles with:*

 

i think that was one of many things Sam struggled with when he was with a woman. i think he also stuggled with fear of committment maybe. several times in the movie when he was with Monique, he paused, almost like hesitating to say certain things and doing certain things to show her he really cared, even though i think he cared deeply for her.

 

did you notice that when Sam told Britt about Monique's father, Britt immidiately told Monique how great of a man he must have been when he was alive? yet When Monique told Sam about her father, he hesitated to say anything for the longest time....it drove me crazy watching him sit there with a blank stare. i still love Sam to death, but i wish he could have said something.....but you know, the more i think about it, he may not have said anything b/c of fear in himself. he said, "....and I've never tried to catch anyone either." i think even after he confessed his love for Monique, he still wasnt completely in love with her yet, but toward the end of the movie when he kept watching her and spending time with her and her mom, he realized just what slipped through his fingers.

 

*_I feel he is mostly lonely and that he believes he's become a hopeless case_. He*

*does think lowly of himself, but I think that stems from his loneliness more than*

*anything else.*

 

exactly! well put frankie....wow, you actually said something emotional....heehee!

 

*A woman would lift him up. How many times have I said on this*

*board, "the power of woman"?*

 

you never said that! you liar liar pants on fire! you are always blaming women for everything! does this right a bell? "They are always strangling me!"

[FrankGrimes]

Hey, Musicman -- Unlike Theresa I sit in my living room deciding where I should

go for my breakfast. Maybe I will visit my bride at work.

 

My kind of guy.

 

My thought was that this is primarily a love story. A story of how a man loves a woman

and so easily can lose her. Sam is a wounded soul. He is from the start.

 

That is beautiful. That is exactly what I see the film as being most about. Should I do it?

Should I? All right, I'll say it... The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Sam is like

"Tom Doniphon" (John Wayne). He loves a woman but she ends up choosing another. His

love is so strong for her that he'd rather support her decision despite the fact it's gonna kill

him. The woman you love comes before you.

 

 

He is also not without charm and warmth.

 

That's for sure. He's very gentle and loving with women. I liked this from Sinatra:

 

 

Sam doesn't like Britt. He gets his way, whether it is getting out of something or

getting what he wants. Britt knows this as he well explains later. Sam is down

to earth. Works for what he has and makes no pretense that he is more than he is.

 

I think Sam comes to hate Britt, but he was just like Monique before he learned the truth. He

was envious of him. He was just as fooled.

 

What is most hurtful for Sam is that after he loves Monique he really "loses" her the

moment she meets Britt. He is a good sport for a while but no one likes to be the

third wheel. (Believe me, I know.) After Britt finds out I wonder why he continues

with Monique other than that he can. But when he is confronted by Sam with

Monique it has all been for fun. No one really gets over it. From here comes the

hate April spoke of. Sam is mad that Britt has treated Monique as he had when

she not only deserved better but ruined his chances with her.

 

The tough part for Sam is that it's not Britt's fault that Monique has chosen him

over Sam. That's on her. If it wasn't Britt, would it have been another guy like

him?

 

The reason Sam ends up hating Britt is because he hurt Monique and he did so

with no regard for her "true" feelings. She meant nothing to Britt and she meant

everything to Sam. Again, it's opposite ends of the spectrum. Could Britt ever feel

the way Sam feels about a woman? Could he feel that way about anything?

 

As much as it is a love story it is the story of two men and the lives they lived and

how it effects them with where they are and the woman they both love.

 

But I don't think Britt loved Monique.

 

As far as the triangle is concerned I don't wonder if Sam is torn between the idea of

being separated from her is more painful than being with both of them when she clearly

now loves Britt. Sam knows Britt is superficial and I think he hopes Monique will

notice too. At that point he can be there to step in again. But he then can't stand

it at all. He sends them on their way and her out of his heart.

 

I don't think Monique ever leaves Sam's heart. This is why he is deadly serious about

killing Britt when he wrongs her and it's why he must see her after the war. I'm not even

sure Sam was hoping Monique would see through Britt. I guess, deep down, he was

hoping for this. But I think he just wanted her to be happy, even at the expense of his

own happiness.

 

At the end it is more than Sam's physical disabilities that keeps them apart. It is

now a history that will. Knowing the one that came between them is dead doesn't

keep him from being between them. They go to their separate lives.

 

This is my feeling, too. I think there is too much pain here. I don't see them coming

together. He's her friend.

 

[JackFavell]

>The thing with Britt is, when is he EVER telling the truth? He's a chameleon. I've known

a couple guys like this. They are very good at figuring out what each person wishes to

hear from them and then they feed them.

 

You are dead right.... Britt observes people, copies their style, and spits it right back at them, all the time knowing that deep down, he really is contemptuous of them. I think it gives him a perverse thrill to see if he can make them believe him, then dump them. This is how he glides through life. It's ugly. Interesting that Curtis' physical beauty is such a contrast to that.

 

>Britt is NEVER looking for something meaningful.

 

I think not only is he never looking, Britt is actively running away from something meaningful. That is when it gets to be dull or boring for him. Or maybe even dangerous. "Meaningful" just points up his own shallowness (or inability to care about anything) in comparison to the other person, and so he runs. He doesn't really want to see himself that clearly through someone else's eyes. He only likes the thrill of the chase, because it moves quickly, like him, and people really give him the view of himself he likes best.... he's the great guy - so talented, so lively. Once that love interest becomes more serious, he gets something different from them, something he doesn't like at all, a truer picture of himself.

 

I really like the comparison between Britt and Uncle Charlie. The last paragraph I wrote would work in describing either of them. The end point of every relationship for Britt is running away. The end point for Uncle Charlie is killing. Britt can forget those people he has duped. Charlie can't, and so he must kill them. However, he's begun to realize that even killing won't make them go away. Does that make Britt shallower than Uncle Charlie? Interesting.

 

I loved that scene with the Colonel. I love the way Karl Swenson acted it, I love the way it was written - it was just about my favorite part of the movie.... the way it highlighted the entire theme, and illuminated both Britt and Sam. You did a beautiful job with the caps, and I am so glad you mentioned it. These are the kind of things I forget about when writing - I usually remember director type stuff rather than singling out meaningful scenes, or I go for character studies. You always go the extra mile to find certain parallels and contrasts in the scenes you pick. I know it is a lot of work to ramble that way. You don't take the easy way out.... You are no Britt, or should I say, Shiftless when it comes to rambling.

 

Thanks for giving it your all.

 

I can't wait for your rambles on GOW and MM..... Hey.....Where ya going...... Hey..... HEY! Come BACK! .....................Frank?......................... He's running away....

 

Hmmm. Guess he was Shiftless.

[HollywoodGolightly]

Maybe the key to understanding Britt comes from Groucho's famous line that he'd never want to belong to a club that would have him as a member. Maybe he thinks less of the women who actually show some real interest in him.

[MissGoddess]

When you ramble you don't fool around! Thanks for taking the time to dig deep

and bring up important points and screencaps to illustrate them. I took all the

same caps, I just didn't want to keep going on and on, so I'm glad you posted

them.

 

I like what you said about the contrast between the Colonel and his wife

and the affair with Monique and Britt. This movie is full of these kinds of

juxtapositions and contrasts and you've just pointed out yet another.

 

It's almost as if nothing is real with Britt---everything is the "champagne

campaign". The war isn't even all that real, it's just another "stage" for him

to show off. And he does have very real skills to show off---he's a good soldier

and talented, smart and quick. But he's so empty. Sam may be more jagged,

not smooth, not as quick and not sophisticated---but his inner life is very rich,

and he's not empty at all.

 

>

> That is beautiful. That is exactly what I see the film as being most about. Should I do it?

> Should I? All right, I'll say it... The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Sam is like

> "Tom Doniphon" (John Wayne). He loves a woman but she ends up choosing another. His

> love is so strong for her that he'd rather support her decision despite the fact it's gonna kill

> him. The woman you love comes before you.

>

 

Terrific! That's what I think, too---the love stories are very similar, especially the characters

Tom and Sam. I agree that they both love unselfishly---they're ready to sacrifice their

happiness to help the girl find hers.

 

 

>

> Sam doesn't like Britt. He gets his way, whether it is getting out of something or

> getting what he wants. Britt knows this as he well explains later. Sam is down

> to earth. Works for what he has and makes no pretense that he is more than he is.

>

> I think Sam comes to hate Britt, but he was just like Monique before he learned the truth. He

> was envious of him. He was just as fooled.

>

 

Very well said. Sam would love to be able to "wow" Monique the way Britt does, to

speak French and know all about jazz like Britt does to impress the girl. But it's all

for show with Britt. "I have every album she ever made! I'll send you one!" It sounds

great and generous, but is it? He just talks the talk. Because, like Jackie said,

he figures out right away what people want to hear.

 

Sam didn't want to hear that Monique didn't love him---but he asked her anyway.

Britt would NEVER even entertain such a scenario.

 

I'm not sure Sam was as fooled as Monique except about the marriage papers.

He really believed Britt sent them in. But he was really second-guessing himself

because all along his instincts had told him Britt was a false alarm.

 

 

>

> This is my feeling, too. I think there is too much pain here. I don't see them coming

> together. He's her friend.

>

 

You guys would love the book, oh my goodness. I hate it! I want them to get

together! She can't reject him again!