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Film_Fatale

Oliver Stone's "W."

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Hey, you're not taking into account all the bad taxes that resulted from the Teapot Dome Scandal.

There was a huge build up of taxes leftover from the scandal and it took nearly 3 years to get through all of them.

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*"You people can't come up with any reasonable arguments so instead you just start looking for things to argue."* - 'ask'

 

I don't engage in these threads often. And now I know why. I am "unreasonable" _and_ "pathetic".

 

I may be a member of the vast class of the "working poor" and the potential target of the revised Bankruptcy law, but I am not poor of ideas or class. I would never dismiss another poster here with a pejorative "You People" simply because I disagree with their editorializing.

 

Kyle In Hollywood

--------------------------

"Ooohh, I had a little guinea pig. I kept him on the shelf

with a little brownie camera so he could reproduce himself."

*F. McGee*

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>Kyle wrote..."Wow. I thought it was law - and part of the American tradition that everyone deserves a second chance."

 

Second chance but not use the system...

 

Kyle, be honest...

 

Do you believe in personal responsibility?

 

Really?

 

Or, do you believe people can't help themselves and it is the restaurants that served them fries and made them fat are responsible?

 

Or the bartender who served them too many drinks?

 

That'll be the day.

 

Message was edited by: JakeHolman

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*"...which is why I go on long sabbaticals from this forum."* - nodgnoc

 

Can I talk ya into hanging around for TCM's "American Politics In Film" month coming in September? I wish I could promise a clean "food fight", but I can't. I fear it will get messy in here next month.

 

Kyle In Hollywood

--------------------------

"Ooohh, I had a little guinea pig. I kept him on the shelf

with a little brownie camera so he could reproduce himself."

*F. McGee*

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>>Not true...

 

>>Most establishment economist think the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act caused the Depression.

 

>>You do know that is about trade don't you?

 

>>Also, as Milton Friedman has pointed out, it was the Fed's wrong actions that caused the Depression.

 

>>Bad monetary policy...

 

>>He is a Nobel winner.

 

>>Ever read him?

 

>>In fairness, there are many positions taken as to what caused the Depression.

 

>>You have a typical lefty position that the government should have intervened and taken care of the problem.

 

>>You more than likely believe government is the answer to many of our problems...

 

>>I disagree with you entirely...

 

You were so quick to disagree that you obviously missed my having mentioned the tariff increase, I just didn't cite it by proper name.

 

I don't disagree that it exacerbated the problem.

 

As for more government on our backs, I believe in just the opposite. I just believe in government making better decisions when it does act. I personally have no faith in either party and am registered as an independent. I've voted as often for the GOP as I have for the Dems (and far more often for Republicans in local elections), but in our two-party system, it really is just a case of lesser of two evils. Neither party learns from history, they are both just self-serving and crony-serving bloats who are the problem, not the solution.

 

I have no "hope" for "change" within government, I'm too old and I've spent too many years in advertising to see politics as anything other than it is. But as a child looks to its parents for solutions, I can't blame the people for expecting government to come up with them. An economic crisis (or any crisis) won't take care of itself.

 

I don't "believe government to be the answer to many of our problems." But I do believe that they are the source to look to for answers when major problems arise. After all, what's a citizen to do, ask someone else's government to fix things?

 

If that's a "lefty position" so be it, that's what I get for thinking that public servants should serve the public. It's hardly an insult and if you feel the need to label me, that's your problem, not mine.

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*"Or, do you believe people can't help themselves and it is the restaurants that served them fries and made them fat are responsible?"* - JakeHolman

 

No I don't.

 

*"Or the bartender who served them too many drinks?"*

 

Ahh. But as a bartender, I _personally_ (and my employer) do have liabilty for any damages or injury caused by a person I served and who is "impaired" when leaving. (Even if I only served one beer to a person - but they previously had a dozen tequila shooters down the street before I served the single beer.)

 

And I believe (but may be wrong) that states across the country have similar liabilty laws on the books.

 

Kyle In Hollywood

--------------------------

"Ooohh, I had a little guinea pig. I kept him on the shelf

with a little brownie camera so he could reproduce himself."

*F. McGee*

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>clore wrote... I don't "believe government to be the answer to many of our problems." But I do believe that they are the source to look to for answers when major problems arise. After all, what's a citizen to do, ask someone else's government to fix things?

 

I will agree with some of your post in that, I, too, believe the present party system is corrupt.

 

This is not the first time in our history...

 

Let's hope there are some Mr or Mrs Smith's who go to Washington and represent the people.

 

Please don't take me for a full blown Libertarian even though I do have some leanings that way.

 

I do believe there is a role for goverment but the question is how much?

 

Right now government takes about 20 to 25 percent of GNP/GDP and it is growing...

 

The State is too, big...

 

The average American worker works 4 to 5 months each year just to pay his or her taxes.

 

That is stealing.

 

Our country was built on rugged individualism and personal responsibility and love for country.

 

Imho, more of that kind of personality is needed in our country today.

 

Help the truly needy...the abled bodied should work...

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Kyle,

 

Yes, I'll be around. Let it get messy. We can take it and dish it out with the best of them.

 

The Aim of an Argument ... should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert (1754-1824)

 

Bob C.

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"Okay, what does the Bankruptcy Reform Act have to do with pro-life? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Pro-life is about the keeping of children instead of choosing an abortion. The Bankruptcy Reform Act is designed to make it harder to file for bankruptcy because people were abusing that privilege. Now, you tell me what the connection between these two issues is. "

 

I'd be glad to explain the connection. The Republican position of pro-life is about preventing abortion up to the birth of the child but ignoring what might make a woman choose abortion - such as horrible economic circumstances, and not caring about the welfare of that child after its birth. The people who are "abusing the privelege" of bankruptcy - as if it were one - are usually going through a divorce, have suffered the loss of a job, or they have suffered an illness - with or without insurance. Did you read about the New York man who had a job and medical insurance yet through medical complications wound up owing 50K out of pocket for what started out as a mosquito bite? Fate can be cruel enough without the credit card companies rewriting the law to make life even more profitable for themselves than it already is. Most people in bankruptcy are not there because they have an irrepressible compulsion to buy more Italian shoes.

 

The reason for all of this is that Republican politicians -as a group - really don't care whether a child is aborted or not, but pretending that they do gets votes from religious people and keeps those politicians in power. Now THAT is important to them.

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*Per Wikipedia:*

 

*_Pro-life_ is a term representing a variety of perspectives and activist movements in bioethics. It is most commonly (especially in the media and popular discourse) refers to opposition to abortion and support for fetal rights. The term describes the political and ethical view which maintains that fetuses and embryos are human beings, and therefore have a right to live. Less commonly, it can be used to indicate opposition to practices such as euthanasia, the death penalty, human cloning, and research involving human embryonic stem cells.*

 

 

 

*_Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act_:*

 

*_The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005_ (Pub.L. 109-8, 119 Stat. 23, enacted 2005-04-20), providing for significant changes in bankruptcy in the United States, was passed by the 109th United States Congress on April 14, 2005 and signed into law by President George W. Bush on April 20, 2005. The effective date for most of its provisions apply to cases commenced on or after October 17, 2005. Referred to colloquially as the "New Bankruptcy Law", the Act of Congress attempts to make it more difficult for consumers to discharge debt under Chapter 7; some of these consumers may instead utilize Chapter 13.*

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Reform_Act

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>>Our country was built on rugged individualism and personal responsibility and love for country.

 

 

And that ties right in with our corrupted two-party system. Red states, blue states, "with us or against us" - all of that rhetoric designed with the intent to divide people into groups. As if there is no love of country anymore, there's only love of party, and the side effect is to hate the other guy for thinking differently.

 

You have no idea of how I wish we lived in a Frank Capra society, where the Mr. Smith's win and the D.B. Norton's lose. It was probably from being exposed to these films when I was so young that I ended up becoming so jaded.

 

I don't have the answers, I'm the first to admit that. But who the hell is there in government that is either smart enough to answer the questions or even just motivated enough to seek answers themselves? We get excuses, we're told it's this guy's fault, or that guy's fault - usually the other party.

 

As you said - the average American is working 4 or 5 monts just to pay his taxes. He deserves to get a better return on his investment than he is getting.

 

I'm glad that we found some mutual ground because it is only through such that we as a people can ever hope to get back on the right path.

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>As you said - the average American is working 4 or 5 months just to pay his taxes. He deserves to get a better return on his investment than he is getting.

 

Respectfully, clore, nope, he deserves to have his/her taxes lowered where maybe he/she works 2 months out of the year instead of 4 to 5 to pay taxes.

 

Government will never give a good return on your money...

 

Have a great evening and to be continued.

 

I'm going to get some sleep.

 

Message was edited by: JakeHolman

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*There was also the film _W_ (1974) directed by Richard Quine, staring Dirk Benedict, Mel Ferrer, Michael Witney, Eugene Roche, and Twiggy!*

 

*Within 24-hours, three near-death accidents have occurred. At the scene of each, the letter "W" was scrawled over the injured person*.

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You have a good night, I have to finish watching MUTINY ON THE BOUNTY anyway. I've never managed to get all the way through it before.

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Would it not perhaps be easier if we just discussed the movie itself? :P

 

What does everyone think about the casting?

 

07_condidustry_lg.jpg

 

20080522140009990001

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*Not even W./a Cast that includes Ellen Burstyn, James Cromwell, Richard Dreyfuss, Jason Ritter & Josh Brolin will get me into a theater to see this film!*

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Yeah; why pay good money to see a dramatization when, for the past eight years,you've been a captive (and I mean captive) audience for the real thing?

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> {quote:title=CineSage_jr wrote:}{quote}

> Yeah; why pay good money to see a dramatization when, for the past eight years,you've been a captive (and I mean captive) audience for the real thing?

 

And I thought the point of the movie was (at least partly) to show us the kind of man he was before he got to the White House.

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I thought I should mention that some people said that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the greatest

president of all time. How is he so great? Roosevelt is not on Mt. Rushmore, broke the rule of only

serving two terms by starting a third with Harry Truman, and created the nation's welfare system that is in place today giving people handouts who don't deserve it. So, again, what makes him so great? And don't say world war 2, if he hadn't done it someone else would have. Teddy Roosevelt was a conservationist but most people don't give him credit for preserving wildlife and forests just because he happened to be Republican. And he's on rushmore.

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FDR did not start the welfare system as we knew it up until 1996. FDR started public works programs and put the jobless to work, which was around a third of the adult population when he took office. When these men were away from home it was mandated that their checks go back home to support their families. However, he did not end the Great Depression. Only WWII and its massive munitions building programs did that. He did try to do something, which is more than Hoover did, and he did actually alleviate some economic suffering. For that reason he is great.

 

However FDR did pull stunts like packng the Supreme Court with more than nine justices in order to insure that none of the massive social and economic changes he was making got overturned by the Court. I think that is definitely a mark against him. Plus he didn't seem to recognize the fact that Russia was as evil and as thirsty for world domination as the Nazis.

 

LBJ started the welfare system as it existed from the mid 60's until the mid 90's, not FDR. LBJ thought he could end poverty even though, as Jesus said "For the poor you have always with you".

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> {quote:title=ask wrote:}{quote}

> I thought I should mention that some people said that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the greatest

> president of all time. How is he so great? Roosevelt is not on Mt. Rushmore, broke the rule of only serving two terms by starting a third with Harry Truman,

 

Rule made after his third term.

 

>and created the nation's welfare system that is in place today giving people handouts who don't deserve it.

 

People were starving in this great nation during the Great Depression. Govt is designed to create bureaucracies when there is ongoing need. Our War Department was not a permenent fixture; yet I don't hear opposition to the Pentagon from the right. Ever. FDR gave us that too.

 

>So, again, what makes him so great? And don't say world war 2, if he hadn't done it someone else would have.

 

Not the Republicans at the time; they were fractured and couldn't keep up their "America first" opposition after Pearl Harbor. It might undermine all the cozy business contacts with Germany.

 

>Teddy Roosevelt was a conservationist but most people don't give him credit for preserving wildlife and forests just because he happened to be Republican. And he's on rushmore.

 

So, are you suggesting Teddy wouldn't support drilling in ANWAR? Besides, Borglum started Mt Rushmore before FDR took office. And one more thing, Teddy Roosevelt LEFT the Republican Party when he realized they were not supporting his approach. The Republican'ts were Pro-Business interests even then. . . .

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FDR was a great wartime president, but a train wreck on domestic and economic issues. He didn't create the Great Depression, he only made it greater. He created a depression within a depression. While the country was in dire straits economically, he raised taxes and then added the social security tax on top of that. He put the jobless to work through his work programs, but a) the majority of those jobs went to swing vote states to buy votes, and B) those people were paid in the rest of the country's tax dollars, which there wasn't a whole lot of coming in to fill the coffers. That's why they stopped those programs.

 

He took us off the gold standard and made it illegal to own gold. You had to sell it to the government at a low price, and after they got it, FDR raised the price of gold on a weekly basis. Not on market analysis, but on whims and it became a game with him.

 

His National Recovery Act bullied small businesses to become members and regulated the prices of services of goods that these businesses charged. They had to charge those prices and could not go up or down. The prices were set. You'd think at the time, with such staggering poverty levels, that they'd lower prices to help the folks out. No. They raised prices making people poorer. There was a dry cleaner who was a member of FDR's NRA who lowered his prices to help people out. He was thrown in jail for it. Imagine, a store owner being thrown in jail because he lowered his prices.

 

FDR also took over power companies and they became government owned. They charged higher prices and gerrymandered areas that they'd supply power to, and forbade people in those areas to choose rival power services. Government monopolies ... hmmm, sounds like the Soviet Union.

 

Most of FDR's cabinet were admitted socialists. As you can see with all of the above. America was very much a socialist (see also collectivist) country under FDR. The people stayed poor and controlled, with less freedoms than we have today. It's amazing what hypnotic affects a fireside chat can have on people.

 

And this is just a few of his disastrous policies. People squawking about our having less freedom today need to read up on their History. I love when people say our rights have been taken away, like that of habeas corpus, and leave out the "if you're a terrorist" part. Ditto for the FISA act. We're in better times than we were under FDR and I hope it stays that way.

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The great Milton Friedman said it best..."There are no free lunches"

 

 

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Dear MattHelm:

 

If you are going to study history, then please use more sources than what you've shown here. Please don't misunderstand, but what you have just regurgitated is very much the sort of history that totalitarian regimes have done in the past; what this leader did was all terrible and turned out badly, and my leaders are the wonderful ones, and their ideas are the successes we truly enjoy. There are much better drinks out there than just Kool-aid.

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MattHelm -

Hi Buddy! It's been a long time. Hope you're well. School start next week?

 

*"I love when people say our rights have been taken away, like that of habeas corpus, and leave out the "if you're a terrorist" part. Ditto for the FISA act."* - MattHelm

 

Ahhh. But _you_ forgot to include "if you're _suspected_ of being a terrorist". There are over One Million names on the "No_Fly" list - or whatever it is called - that subjects one to heightened security at airports. And they all don't belong there.

Does anyone truly believe that there are One Million potential terrorists in the United States? Or that the singer once known as "Cat Stevens" is dangerous and should be barred from entering the country?

The USA will probably be paying a lot of money to a young Canadian who was sent Guatanamo Bay and held without charge for many years.

 

As a citizen of the United States, I value my liberty - and my privacy - very highly. I don't want the Law Enforcement division of my government scanning my emails, listening to my phone calls or cataloguing what I remove from the library - without a judge reviewing the reasons for such actions and giving Law Enforcement legal authority to do so. Without some basic privacy there is no liberty.

 

So, MattHelm. 'filmlover' has a new Programming Challenge starting on Monday. Wanna throw in again and join the rest of us "old-timers"? You always make a Challenge more fun - and definitely more entertaining. I hope you consider it.

 

Kyle In Hollywood

--------------------------

"Ooohh, I had a little guinea pig. I kept him on the shelf

with a little brownie camera so he could reproduce himself."

*F. McGee*

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