Western Movie Rambles

[JackFavell]

[rohanaka]

HELLOOOOOOOOO Mad Mop!!! Ha. (I just had to get that in there again at least ONE more time... ha.)

 

Laramie is kind of a frustrating film for me because a lot of the parts were there but they were curtailed, if that makes any sense. It's basically what everyone has been saying.

 

Yep... the votes are in.... a good film.... that SHOULD have been a BETTER one but for a few missing details...

 

Try Mr. Hobbs Takes a Vacation sometimes. I'm serious! I have a rambling rant on that one ready to go at some point.

 

Ha.... now I think I can honestly see where you might be going with that (though I have to confess it has been YEARS...decades maybe... since I last saw that one) I will look forward to that rant....I mean ramble...ha.

 

She doesn't take any guff from him and in the corral fight she shows she's not afraid to take action. I found her very interesting and probably my favorite character. MacMahon was a good choice for the part. She shows a lot of feeling in her face. You could just tell how she felt about Alec. I wanted to know more about her

 

THAT was a perfect way to describe her... and I agree... I think she was just about my fave in this one too.

 

Oh I agree with Frank though, she was carrying the torch big time

 

Oh you men... you always think just because a woman loves a man for a long time, from afar... she is carrying a torch...ha. Ok... I admit that DOES sound like the standard "torch bearer" definition... but to me that also implies that she wa just pining away hoping that SOMEDAY he would come back for her (hence the torch...lighting the way... she was just waiting around for him to find his way back to her....blah blah blah...) I did not see that in her... she was far too "proactive" to be a "piner". She stood up to him... she even fought against some of the things he tried to do (mostly for his own good... but also... for her own sake) She DID love him... she DID care what happened to him.... but I don't know that she ever truly EXPECTED things to end up for the both of them the way they did. (Ok... now Frank can come in w/ some Screencap now and prove me wrong w/ some obscure piece of the dialogue I have overlooked...HA!)

 

There you go again, being all hard on those poor misunderstood cattle barons again! Did you have a problem with Ben Cartwright too

 

NO Way!!! All his sons were GOOD GUYS... (even though that ADAM (whoo wee) wore a black hat!! ha. And besides... Ben was in "lumber" not cattle... ha. Probably the only thing I had against Old Ben Cartwright (and all his sons too) is something that (I think it was)Ms Cutter brought up on here a long time ago... they were DEADLY to women... ha. NEVER marry a Cartwright... unless you are suicidal... ha. :-)

[movieman1957]

Reminds me of yesterday.

[JackFavell]

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I was speaking more in context of things in general than the western. With Marian in "Shane" I get the sense that she was content until it looked like things were getting out of hand. Nothing was worth losing her husband for, especially not the land. Joe's problem was losing his self respect. His pride, his honor was as important, if not more so than the land.

 

I agree with you. But wouldn't part of his pride have been tied to being able to defend his family from the bad guys who want to force them out? I think most men are conditioned from a very early age to project an image of strength and confidence, hence you have things like saying "boys don't cry" and so on. (And of course from an evolutionary perspective, the stronger men did get the women he wanted as his mate - but that's another story)

 

> I think westerns of the 50's tended to reflect the family situations of the day that were average among the population, even if stereotypically. My own thought is that westerns were popular because as American became more urbanized that maybe the appeal of being outdoors, rugged, not tied to anything, least of all a desk had a greater appeal. There is still the code of the west and that certainly has its appeal. I may be projecting my own reasons for my love of westerns because I was too young then to have been a part of it.

 

Good point, Chris! But at the same time that America was becoming more urbanized, wasn't it also starting to move towards the suburbs? You had the start of suburbia and the nationwide interstate system, and the heyday of the Big Three, so it's possible people were seeing more of the country and scoping out "new" land in a way that hadn't might not have been possible before the war.

 

And the part of the Code of the West also is a big part, I think. Here, I could definitely see a correlation (perhaps even subliminally on the part of filmmakers) between Americans' ascent to a super power that had to throw its might in conflicts around the world, and the way things were sometimes resolved in the Old West. And the image of John Wayne, especially with its patriotic underpinnings, surely must have reflected that on some level, even if it wasn't something that people were consciously aware of at the time - in a similar way, Sylvester Stallone's Rambo character became some sort of wish-fulfillment fantasy in the Reagan years. So there may be a parallel with the Western and the new-found strength of post-war America.

 

> I think as well the majority of western films didn't have as much a traditional family structure then the TV westerns. Most films are about loners or people on their way from or to something. Family often gets in the way or slows them down. Often the secondary characters were the ones with the normal family. The other side is "Will Penny." Heston falls on, what later becomes, a ready made family but he can't bring himself to do it because he feels he is not worthy of them and that he can't provide for them. Sometimes by the end of the film some of the characters are ready to settle down but it has not been the focus on the film.

 

Very good point. The way I see it, there's always been a very romantic notion of the outsider, the lone rider, who can get things done that a married man, having to look after his family, might not always be able to do. You see that in Shane and The Searchers to some extent, since both Shane and Ethan Edwards are intrinsically loners who you have a hard time imagining settling down at any point in the near future. But in both movies, there is a counterpoint to their characters, one which portrays the strength of the family against adverse circumstances. And I think that to audiences of the 50s, especially, and maybe to audiences watching them years later, they can always look to the lone outsider as a romantic embellishment, someone they might have wanted to be, while they also have a family figure in the movie as a more realistic ideal of the practical ideal they can/could aspire to.

 

That is one of the things, imho, at the very essence of the Western myth: the yearning to go out there, explore, tame and conquer the wild and unexplored territories, while at the same time wanting to eventually find some peace, stability, and settling down to have a family so that you know you will pass on at least part of what you've accomplished down to the next generation, that the family assets will be passed on, that there is going to be something lasting about what was accomplished in settling the Old West.

 

When Shane or Ethan Edwards ride off in the horizon, it's the perfect kind of ending, because you can envision any number of possible fates for their characters, whether the notion of their remaining lone crusaders appeals more to you, or if you would like to see them settle down at some point...

[JackFavell]

>eventually find some peace

[rohanaka]

Hey there Grey Dude...

 

ChiO's on a "Wanted" poster in this town, so I'm not sure he'll want to show his mug or not. Quiet Gal is a tough sheriff, too.

 

I just put out an "APB".... ha.

 

A film that comes to mind for me with The Man from Laramie is The Big Country.

I see some similarities between some of the characters, most notably:

 

I can see your comparisons... you and Chris did a nice job of breaking all that down. But I am not sure I would totally compare Heston to Kennedy... they both sort of started out the same.. but they ended very differently (but then again... so did the Major and Waggoman... I guess some comparisons can only go so far..ha)

 

I preferred the performances and characters in The Big Country

 

I have to go with you on this... though Laramie has some very good moments... and Stewart (and some of the others) did a good job... I just think TBC is a MUCH better film.

 

Barbara could have and should have played a much bigger role in this film. She's a Waggoman and in love with the hired hand, so there's some conflict there. Then you throw in her growing interest in Will and you've got yourself a very conflicted woman in the middle of a storm. Instead, we hardly ever spend any time with Barbara. This is strange since it's her that is standing alone at the end of the film. We should feel her emotional pain and anguish but we don't

 

You guys have really focused in on what is probably one of the weakest character developments in the whole movie... (except for maybe "Psycho Dave")

 

What I liked about Barbara at the end is that she's very girly around Will. She doesn't want to

come out and say what she's feeling. She's basically blushing. She's quite immature and I

find this to be adorable. But do we understand her feelings? No. They are basically thrust

upon us.

 

Barbara's reaction tells us she'd love for him to call her "Barbara," and in a loving way.

 

I really liked her talking about Daniel Boone. She knows all about Daniel Boone but what

does she really know about life and love? She wants to, though. She really wants to. All

Will needs to do is ask her, just ask her.

 

Aw Grey Guy... you sentimental nut...ha. You have really honed in on her best moments in this film... I love how you broke down all the dialogue and added the screencaps... nice work young'un... and great way to show all the finer aspects of their relationship...

 

Men are just as unsure as women when it comes to

thinking they know what they want. "If only I had this, I'd be happy." It's rarely that simple

 

THAT was perfect.... I want a tshirt that says that... ha.

 

I think O'Leary's (Wallace Ford) principal role was to tell us more about Will. He's the one

who fills us in on the Captain

 

I agree... though I am also w/ Jackie... I wish he had been a bit more "side-kicky"... ha.

 

Speaking of agreeing w/ Jackie....

 

The Daniel Boone speech was very appealing to me, because men are not the only ones with an itch to go - to let the wind take them. Barbara wanted to leave, almost to flee - go out and see the world, but never got that chance. Even at the end, though she is free of her ties to the Waggoman's, it is still only intimated that she might be traveling on. Her whole character is only intimated at. The same with MacMahon. This is a whole other story to tell.

 

Hey there Ms Favell... I LOVE that... you have brought up an aspect of Barbara that SHOULD have been staring me right in the face... (she WAS trying to get out of there at the beginning of the film... she did NOT want anymore goods delivered to her store...etc) but I just overlooked it all.

 

Re: all the chat about Hallie and Barbara....

 

I'm sorry guys.. I don't see it...

 

I DO see Barbara looking at Stewart as the man she REALLY wanted after comparing him to the man she already had. She saw all the REAL qualities in him that she only WISHED she could have seen in Kennedy's character. And she appreciated the difference. I think she had DREAMS of something greater all along and had more or less resigned herself that they would not be come true... and so she let herself be "stuck" w/ Vic.. but when Stewart comes along... that spark of a dream started to show up again...

 

But as far as Hallie is concerned.... I am having trouble seeing the comparison. DID she really regret marrying Ranse? I don't think so... not totally anyway. (forgive me April..ha) I think she ALWAYS loved Tom... (but more in the way of "you never forget your first love) but I think she did still love Ranse as well.

 

I think maybe more than anything she was sentimental toward all the feelings she still had for Tom at the funeral and certainly feeling sad (and maybe even a little guilty) for the way his life had turned out... but that is NOT the same thing as regretting her choice to marry Ranse. I mean think of it.... HE is the one who truly understood her desire to better herself... he taught her to READ for crying out loud. And he EXPECTED her to better herself.. and not just for him.. but for HER. I don't think Tom had that sort of expectation for Hallie... but I think he finally realized SHE had that expectation for herself... which is why he was able to let her go.

 

I believe the Stoddards had a good life together... and that the trip back to Shinbone was a moment in time where they were BOTH able to examine the past and see how they got where they were by looking back at where they came from. Would Hallie have been happier with TOM???? I don't know... But was she UNhappier having married Ranse? I don't think so... not entirely, anyway. There may have been an element of "what would my life have been like if"... but again... that is not the same thing as "regret"....

 

Ok..... don't all of you start throwing things at me at the same time.... ha.

 

Getting back to Barbara and Hallie.... one thing I WILL agree they had in common...ha.... they both ended up with Jimmy Stewart.. HA!. Or did they???? DID he and Barbara ever get back together... OR.... was SHE the one who ended up carrying a TORCH?????????????

[JackFavell]

> I DO see Barbara looking at Stewart as the man she REALLY wanted after comparing him to the man she already had. She saw all the REAL qualities in him that she only WISHED she could have seen in Kennedy's character. And she appreciated the difference. I think she had DREAMS of something greater all along and had more or less resigned herself that they would not be come true... and so she let herself be "stuck" w/ Vic.. but when Stewart comes along... that spark of a dream started to show up again...

 

I love this. I think she really thought Vic wanted what she wanted, and I think she thought it would be better for Vic to simply get out of there. He was becoming something less than a man under Alec and the demands that Vic play babysitter. She could see that it was going to lead nowhere for him - LESS than nowhere, because you are always going to be behind the eight ball in that situation. If he babysat Dave too well, Dave would have found a way to knife him in the back. And if he let Dave do what he wanted, Vic would get the blame for anything Dave pulled. SO I think Barbara saw a fresh beginning for them as a way to help him be a man.

 

But Vic is completely seduced by the money, and the relationship with Alec. Did he really think he would get part of the ranch? Was he greedy? I'm not sure - this was a cloudy aspect of Vic's character to me. He was so willing to delude himself. He wouldn't let go of this promise of Alec's, even though it was dragging him down. He was owed that land and he was going to keep on that line till the end. To Alec, the promise was a technique designed to get Vic to care more about the ranch, to get more work out of him. Maybe a hasty one in a moment of weakness. To Vic, it was a contract and his right. This is where he tripped up.

 

So Barbara is left out in the cold with her fading dreams, not of romance, but of freedom. Of clean open air, not the clinging dust of the Waggomans. Then she sees Jimmy and you're right, she sees it all there in him. He's a man who can make a tough decision. He would not be under anyone's control, and he actually listens to her. How long has it been since someone actually listened to her like a human being, instead of "the little woman"? And Will is free....

 

> But as far as Hallie is concerned.... I am having trouble seeing the comparison. DID she really regret marrying Ranse? I don't think so... not totally anyway. (forgive me April..ha) I think she ALWAYS loved Tom... (but more in the way of "you never forget your first love) but I think she did still love Ranse as well.

>

> I think maybe more than anything she was sentimental toward all the feelings she still had for Tom at the funeral and certainly feeling sad (and maybe even a little guilty) for the way his life had turned out... but that is NOT the same thing as regretting her choice to marry Ranse. I mean think of it.... HE is the one who truly understood her desire to better herself... he taught her to READ for crying out loud. And he EXPECTED her to better herself.. and not just for him.. but for HER. I don't think Tom had that sort of expectation for Hallie... but I think he finally realized SHE had that expectation for herself... which is why he was able to let her go.

>

> I believe the Stoddards had a good life together... and that the trip back to Shinbone was a moment in time where they were BOTH able to examine the past and see how they got where they were by looking back at where they came from. Would Hallie have been happier with TOM???? I don't know... But was she UNhappier having married Ranse? I don't think so... not entirely, anyway. There may have been an element of "what would my life have been like if"... but again... that is not the same thing as "regret"....

 

Oh, lady, you are brilliant! I agree with almost everything here. The one thing I would say is that Hallie and Ranse are having a rough patch.... I think there IS the sting of regret, but I think it is not this huge regret at having married Ranse..... just a small regret that maybe got bigger and bigger, the way things do when you don't talk about them. And I think that she has become disillusioned with parts of Ranse, the thing he has become. Sometimes I think women can look at things from both sides so well-- I think she is looking at both sides right at this moment in time. She is remembering the good in Tom, and seeing the not so good in Ranse. She just wants a man who needs her.... like he used to. I feel that Ranse needs a good shake up, so he can appreciate Hallie like Tom did. And don't kid yourself, if she had married Tom, she would be right at this point still, thinking what it would have been like to be with Ranse! Because you always take for granted the thigs you have....but the things you lost, they can loom really large if you bury them inside you.

 

Now why does it always come down to TMWSLV? What a movie.

[movieman1957]

>But Vic is completely seduced by the money, and the relationship with Alec. Did he really think he would get part of the ranch? Was he greedy? I'm not sure - this was a cloudy aspect of Vic's character to me. He was so willing to delude himself. He wouldn't let go of this promise of Alec's, even though it was dragging him down. He was owed that land and he was going to keep on that line till the end. To Alec, the promise was a technique designed to get Vic to care more about the ranch, to get more work out of him. Maybe a hasty one in a moment of weakness. To Vic, it was a contract and his right. This is where he tripped up.

 

 

 

You have a good point here. Maybe Vic stayed because he was sure he was going to get his part. Didn't Waggomen tell him he loved like a son? Then it became inconvenient. "But Dave is blood." or words to that effect and Vic knew he was done. He walked the fine line about babysitting Dave but he was also complicit in the gun running deal. At least until the end.

 

 

 

Maybe Barbara's wish to go was two fold. She may have well wanted to help Vic, I hadn't thought of that, but I think her primary goal was to get out. Maybe she grew up there and had just plain had enough of everything. There wasn't much going on there for a young lady. Was there?

[JackFavell]

> You have a good point here. Maybe Vic stayed because he was sure he was going to get his part. Didn't Waggomen tell him he loved like a son? Then it became inconvenient. "But Dave is blood." or words to that effect and Vic knew he was done. He walked the fine line about babysitting Dave but he was also complicit in the gun running deal. At least until the end.

 

I don't understand that part - he must have been involved in the guns before that falling out with Alec, right? Maybe not. I could understand it if he got upset and resented Alec's going back on his word. So all along he had this backup plan?

 

> Maybe Barbara's wish to go was two fold. She may have well wanted to help Vic, I hadn't thought of that, but I think her primary goal was to get out.

 

I agree.

 

>Maybe she grew up there and had just plain had enough of everything. There wasn't much going on there for a young lady. Was there?

 

 

Seems like a ghost town till Stewart gets there....the only man in town...

 

[movieman1957]

As I recall, and it has been a year or so, Vic was involved to make a little money for himself but he got real upset when Dave was going to sell them to the Indians when he wanted to. So I gahter it had been going on for a little while because he didn't think it was a real big deal to do it.

 

Weren't they going to sell them to Mexicans or someone else originally?

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> As I recall, and it has been a year or so, Vic was involved to make a little money for himself but he got real upset when Dave was going to sell them to the Indians when he wanted to. So I gahter it had been going on for a little while because he didn't think it was a real big deal to do it.

>

> Weren't they going to sell them to Mexicans or someone else originally?

 

Aaaghhh. I missed that somehow. I am so frustrated. I have to go back again.

 

Meanwhile, I wanted to say how much I liked the framing of this scene in the jail.... Stewart indeed looks long and lean, like the man in Alec's dream. He looks relaxed, but wary, and his knee breaks up what could have been a very static scene. Crisp has to walk beyond the knee to get into placement for his dream speech. In other words he has to enter Stewart's space, into the light, and therefore they become closer, not just physically, but mentally. You can still see all that you have to, even with that knee in the air.

 

 

I like how it's lit as well, with Jimmy remaining half in the dark throughout. After Alec tells him about the dream, and he sits down, they have become more like each other. However, Jimmy is still warily mulling what he's heard when Alec leaves. I am finding that Stewart's facial expressions are really hard to capture, because he is always thinking. Thoughts flicker across his face quite rapidly....

 

Everyone has talked about Jimmy's rage, but I like this film very much (or at least Stewart's performance in it) because it is a different type of anger, more slow and willful, and sidetracked by his thoughts about the people he meets. He actually seems like a thoughtful person, generally. Someone who takes action and has had to, but who is deliberate in his planning and careful observation of the situation. Something like John Wayne in Fort Apache. I see him as a captain easily, though that part of the story is left in the background.

[rohanaka]

And don't kid yourself, if she had married Tom, she would be right at this point still, thinking what it would have been like to be with Ranse! Because you always take for granted the thigs you have....but the things you lost, they can loom really large if you bury them inside you.

 

EXACTLY... excellent point, little lady....

 

Now why does it always come down to TMWSLV? What a movie.

 

Ha.. it DOES seem to be a standard setter around here, doesn't it?? :-)

 

And PS... nice use of the screencaps in that jail scene little lady... I liked your comments about the light and shadow... good eye as always.

[JackFavell]

Thanks, Ro.

 

It was interesting how TMFL looked different ways at different times. Sometimes it was pastel and beautiful, like when Stewart was alone out in the rocky desert areas.... then it got dark and flat in the town for the knife scene. The salt area was desolate, and the interiors were rather lush and emotionally convincing, I thought. They really expressed who was living in each place. Barbara's place was homey (in fact, it reminded me of our next door neighbors house in Oklahoma when I was growing up, all early Americana type stuff), and Alec's ranch, well it was huge, and incredibly rich looking, filled with Spanish antiques - but I'm sure the wife had something to do with that.

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Jackie Ford -- Thanks for clarifying. I appear to be in a cantankerous

mood. You'd better watch out! I might go all "Dave" on you.

 

Better me than others.

 

In The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Hallie felt she knew what she wanted in a man

and environment and she comes to regret her thinking... in time.

 

But does she regret her thinking because she didn't know what she really wanted? Or does

she regret her thinking because her choice was based on a lie? I mean, the man she

married was not the man she thought he was. That's not confusion about feelings, that's

disillusionment.

 

I said "man" but I do believe it's more about "environment" for Hallie. She thought leaving Shinbone would be the best thing for her. That's what she thought. Was she right?

In her heart, was she right?

 

 

 

 

My feeling is that Barbara does know what she wants. The only time she doesn't

hesitate is when she is talking about Daniel Boone - an explorer. She has read everything

about him. She wants a more adventurous life. At that time (even in the fifties still), that

adventurous life had to be linked with a man. That's how you chose your future. I do

understand that. But I don't think she is confused about her wants, I think she is simply

disillusioned with Vic. And in that, yes, she is very much like Hallie. However, I think

Barbara was beginning that disillusionment before Will ever got there - he is totally right

when he says the problems were there before he arrived.

 

I loved your comment about Daniel Boone being an adventurous explorer. That's a terrific

point. And I definitely agree with you in that Barbara wants to get out of her current life. She

wants to start fresh somewhere else. My saying she "thinks" she knows what she wants has to

do with the unknown. How does she know if a new town or possibly a new man would bring

her happiness? She doesn't. She thinks this, she doesn't know it. I could say that it would

be wonderful to live in France, but how do I know? I'm guessing.

 

Barbara is projecting all her wants and desires with Will. She doesn't know him. She likes his

way, but she doesn't know him. He's Daniel Boone to her. Can you settle down with Daniel

Boone?

 

 

Isn't it interesting - in those two pictures, Hallie and Barbara almost look alike, don't they?

 

 

I love this. I think she really thought Vic wanted what she wanted, and I think she thought it would be better for Vic to simply get out of there. He was becoming something less than a man under Alec and the demands that Vic play babysitter. She could see that it was going to lead nowhere for him - LESS than nowhere, because you are always going to be behind the eight ball in that situation. If he babysat Dave too well, Dave would have found a way to knife him in the back. And if he let Dave do what he wanted, Vic would get the blame for anything Dave pulled. SO I think Barbara saw a fresh beginning for them as a way to help him be a man.

 

That was very well said. I'm with ya. I think Barbara felt Vic was more interested in proving his

worth to Alec than to her. She was secondary to him. Will, a total stranger, was treating

Barbara better than the man she loved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But Vic is completely seduced by the money, and the relationship with Alec. Did he really think he would get part of the ranch? Was he greedy? I'm not sure - this was a cloudy aspect of Vic's character to me. He was so willing to delude himself. He wouldn't let go of this promise of Alec's, even though it was dragging him down. He was owed that land and he was going to keep on that line till the end. To Alec, the promise was a technique designed to get Vic to care more about the ranch, to get more work out of him. Maybe a hasty one in a moment of weakness. To Vic, it was a contract and his right. This is where he tripped up.

 

I really liked your comment of "it was a contract and his right." Vic has power and say with the

most powerful man in Coronado. If he moves elsewhere, he won't have this. He will become

very small. Barbara doesn't care about this, but Vic sure as heck does. But you are so very

right: Vic ain't gonna get what he thinks is owed to him. Dave is the heir, not him. He's caught.

 

So Barbara is left out in the cold with her fading dreams, not of romance, but of freedom. Of clean open air, not the clinging dust of the Waggomans. Then she sees Jimmy and you're right, she sees it all there in him. He's a man who can make a tough decision. He would not be under anyone's control, and he actually listens to her. How long has it been since someone actually listened to her like a human being, instead of "the little woman"? And Will is free....

 

Daniel Boone.

[JackFavell]

>Howdy, Jackie Ford -- Thanks for clarifying. I appear to be in a cantankerous mood. You'd better watch out! I might go all "Dave" on you.

 

Better me than others.

 

You don't know how close I came today to taking out some frustration on others. I think I should apologize.... I don't want to be a "Dave".

 

I said "man" but I do believe it's more about "environment" for Hallie. She thought leaving Shinbone would be the best thing for her. That's what she thought. Was she right?

In her heart, was she right?

 

Yes. She was right.

 

She had to leave. Can you see her staying with Tom AND Ranse in Shinbone? No. It could never have worked. And Hallie did need to become ..... something other than a servant. It was good for her to go with Ranse. But it was Ranse's dream for Hallie to become educated, not Hallie's dream. She wanted to learn to read, but I don't think she had much more in mind for herself.

 

She needed to come back to Shinbone, long before this point. I don't know exactly what Hallie's dream for herself was, but I guarantee it was not working like she was when Ranse came to town. I imagine Hallie's dream would have been much simpler than becoming a big time politician's wife. Maybe it was to settle down and have some kids on a ranch somewhere outside the town limits, while Ranse put up his shingle as the town lawyer. This leads me to another question...... was Ranse's dream to become a big man like that? That was more Tom's doing than his. I think he liked it, I think both men thought they were providing the perfect future for Hallie - but really, in her heart, was she happy?

[FrankGrimes]

You don't know how close I came today to taking out some frustration on others. I think I should apologize.... I don't want to be a "Dave".

 

No need to apologize to me for anything, Spunky. I don't mind if you let loose on me. I will

talk it out.

 

Yes. She was right.

 

She had to leave. Can you see her staying with Tom AND Ranse in Shinbone? No. It could

never have worked.

 

Excellent point! I never thought of it like that. I completely agree with you,

Little Woman.

 

And Hallie did need to become ..... something other than a servant. It was good for her

to go with Ranse. But it was Ranse's dream for Hallie to become educated, not Hallie's

dream. She wanted to learn to read, but I don't think she had much more in mind for

herself.

 

Well, lookie here. We agree again! Hallie merely wanted to read her Bible. What I think

Ranse did for Hallie more than anything else was to instill confidence and pride in her. She

loved helping Ranse teach in Shinbone. As I've told Miss G on a couple occasions, Hallie

loved her "little bell" and all that it came to represent. I think she would have been extremely

happy being involved in teaching the rest of her life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

She needed to come back to Shinbone, long before this point. I don't know exactly what Hallie's dream for herself was, but I guarantee it was not working like she was when Ranse

came to town. I imagine Hallie's dream would have been much simpler than becoming a big

time politician's wife. Maybe it was to settle down and have some kids on a ranch

somewhere outside the town limits, while Ranse put up his shingle as the town lawyer.

 

This is what I believe, too. Hallie didn't want to be a waitress all her life. Could she have been

a wife and mother with Tom? I believe so. The tough part for her was that her parents were

running the restaurant/hotel. She was needed there. Ranse allowed her to escape her reality. But I do believe she ended up wanting to go home.

 

This leads me to another question...... was Ranse's dream to become a big man like

that? That was more Tom's doing than his. I think he liked it, I think both men thought

they were providing the perfect future for Hallie - but really, in her heart, was she happy?

 

I'm of the belief that Ranse wasn't looking to become a big-time politician. I believe his path

took him that direction. Of course, he rode a lie to prominence... at the urging of Tom. I then

believe Ranse lost his way. Instead of placing Hallie first, he came first. We can see this at

the outset of the film. The Ranse we see at the very beginning of the film is arrogant. That's

not the Ranse I felt when he arrived in Shinbone.

 

As for Hallie's happiness, I believe she was happy to start but the Hallie we see at current is

clearly unhappy. She's guilt-ridden and bleeding emotionally.

[lzcutter]

*I think maybe more than anything she was sentimental toward all the feelings she still had for Tom at the funeral and certainly feeling sad (and maybe even a little guilty) for the way his life had turned out... but that is NOT the same thing as regretting her choice to marry Ranse.*

 

I think in the beginning she very much loved Ranse. She got to travel and be a part of society, all things that at one time mattered to her. Just as Ranse's efforts to help the folks of the Territory in those early years in office.

 

But somewhere along the line, Ranse lost touch with that spirit that initially drove him and settled in to being just another blowhard politician. Politics, not the people, became his life.

 

The trip home for Hallie only reminds her of how far she and Ranse have really traveled and how much she hasn't really enjoyed a lot of that journey.

 

If she didn't know what Tom had done that night, Ranse told her after they were married. So, she knew that part of his political career was built on a lie and the fact that he didn't try to tell the truth about what really happened that night on the street in Shinbone becomes the wedge between them.

 

The Ranse Stoddard that she knew in those early days when he first arrived in Shinbone became the back-slapping politician in love with the sound of his own voice and perhaps, in love with how far that lie had taken him.

 

Hallie probably had letters from Pete and his wife until they died so she likely had an idea of what happened to Tom.

 

But it is only when they return to Shinbone and they see what really happened to the man who shot Liberty Valance, that the consequences of that night really start to impact Ranse. He can't ignore his wife's anguish at the situation.

 

He finally realizes that he has to come clean and even though the newspaper editor refuses to publish what really happened, it gives Ranse the cleansing that he needs.

 

He realizes, that despite how far they have come from Shinbone, how far he has really fallen. He needs Hallie much more at the end than she needs him. While she would probably never leave him, he begins to understand the gulf that has grown between them and how much wider it really could get.

 

He reaches out to her by offering to give up the one thing that matters most to him (his career) for the one that thing he loves most (Hallie). He just has to hope it's not too late.

 

And without the trip to Shinbone for Tom's funeral, the Stoddards would have never had a second chance.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=lzcutter wrote:}{quote}

> But somewhere along the line, Ranse lost touch with that spirit that initially drove him and settled in to being just another blowhard politician. Politics, not the people, became his life.

 

Lynn,

That's an interesting take (and perhaps a bit more cynical) than mine, at least based on the initial few viewings. I interpreted it as being more about growing jaded and perhaps a bit bored with the trappings of "power and fortune" as it were, because oftentimes they aren't quite as fulfilling on their own as people imagine them to be when they are hungry.

 

I defer to your greater understanding of this and other Westerns, and will reconsider how I interpreted those parts of the movie when I get a chance to watch it again (which I hope will be soon - just got the Centennial Edition DVD!)

 

P.S.: Should we take the discussion about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance to the thread for that topic and leave this one for those who wish to continue discussing The Man from Laramie, or can we discuss both at the same time?

 

 

In any case, I started watching Laramie again, and came across a line that's a good example of something I'd mentioned earlier - it's in the scene when Vic comes to Alec and tells him about Kate hiring Lockhart. "Times have changed. In the old days, I used to crack down plenty, I had to," says Alec. "There wasn't much law then. But it was the only way I could build the Barb and hold it."

 

The irony, of course, is that when Dave tries to "crack down", it totally backfires on him.

 

Oh someone had mentioned earlier something about Dave originally intending to sell the rifles to someone other than the Apaches. I didn't notice anything being said about that when watching the movie last night, but I'll double check later since I still have to make some screencaps.

[JackFavell]

Lzcutter -

 

That was beautifully put. Especially the part about The Stoddard's getting a second chance, only because of their trip to Shinbone. It's all about redemption with Ford, isn't it? And second chances.

 

It's like Tom is giving them another gift - like he did originally to bring them together. In effect, _Tom_ saves them again.

[movieman1957]

>The Ranse Stoddard that she knew in those early days when he first arrived in Shinbone became the back-slapping politician in love with the sound of his own voice and perhaps, in love with how far that lie had taken him.

 

This sums up their life as well as anything. Stoddard may have been dragged kicking and screaming to that first convention but after you get into something it becomes what you know though it may not always be who you are.

 

Maybe Hallie's reflection was not knowing what she had (like in Shinbone) until she got out into the more complicated world. Maybe, at heart, she was just a small town girl. Often women have to play politics as well and she doesn't seem the type.

[rohanaka]

Hi Ms Cutter.. I like the way you expanded the possibilities here for the story between Ranse and Hallie... I think this is one of those tales that has a lot of different angles for the "could be" along with the "what it is"... I like the turn our ramble has taken to include this film as well. As Jackie already said.. it always seems to come back to TMWSLV....ha.

 

But I have to say again to all.... NICE ramble on TMFL too, folks... I am really enjoying the chat. :-)

[MissGoddess]

.

[rohanaka]

!

 

:-)

[movieman1957]

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