Western Movie Rambles

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Fordy Guns -- That's interesting, because this is the kind of role I always

associate her with: in control, dominating, willful, almost mannish. The surprise came for

me when I saw movies that showed her potential for sensuality and softenss.

 

But at the very beginning of the film, she's "daddy's little girl" more than ever. She's not in

control, she's submissive. She's extremely childish, almost in a young Scarlett way or even

in a Bette Davis "Baby Jane" way. As the film progresses, she becomes more and more

like the Missy I know and like. But the beginning of the film really threw me for a loop.

 

So did you really dislike "Vance" and "Rip" or were your joking?

 

I was being serious. I don't find either of them to be likeable. I believe both are terribly

selfish and hateful, and that's an ugly combination to possess. Now I say this while also

saying I was captivated by both characters.

 

I never really got to like either one. I feel like they were, in a way, lesser than T.C. in

terms of likability. He was awful but he enjoyed his awfulness, enjoyed life, and so long

as it didn't inconvenience him, he liked to see everyone around him enjoying his

awfulness, too!

 

That's how I felt, too. I didn't dislike T.C. I actually found him to be amiable... most of the

time. He was engaging.

 

I don't think Rip or Vance cared if anyone else was enjoying life or not. It is a very

interesting, and in my opinion, accurate, depiction of the difference in the generations.

"Vance" was her father's daughter, but without his love of life or ability to be with all

kinds of people. TC was TC whether the room was full of ambassadors or ranch hands.

He was himself, and Huston was the perfect actor to embody that.

 

That was wonderfully said. I definitely believe Huston's manner helped me to like T.C. Missy

and Corey had a very hard edge to them. They were both bitter people. And then there was

the tender warmth of Roland. The performances by all were spot on. I believe each strongly conveyed the feelings asked of them.

[MissGoddess]

More FuryOUS Spoilage!

 

>

> But at the very beginning of the film, she's "daddy's little girl" more than ever. She's not in

> control, she's submissive. She's extremely childish, almost in a young Scarlett way or even

> in a Bette Davis "Baby Jane" way. As the film progresses, she becomes more and more

> like the Missy I know and like. But the beginning of the film really threw me for a loop.

>

 

I will have to watch it again, because I don't remember ever getting that from her, except

when she was with Juan. He seemed to be the only one she calmed down with. I just

think it's a shame he had no lasting effect on her, his death was merely a catalyst and

a means of driving Vance to go against her father.

[rohanaka]

Howdy, Piecemaker

 

Howdy do there, Grey Guy..

 

And PS... I am STILL trying to figure out your spelling when you do that... ha. (just dont' call me the PEASmaker... I hate those malevolent little green POD creatures... ha. The poor QT and kidling.... they love those slimy things... I only fix them if I HAVE to... ha... PEAS are one of the FEW veggies I can't make PEACE with.. ha)

 

Boy you and April have been raising some INTERESTING points I will address in a moment.. but first I want to go back to your earlier comments from last night...

 

Don't get FURY-ous now... this will be a LONG post... (ha... when oh when have I ever been known to do that??) ha.

 

The Spoilage Resumes: (read on at your own risk)

 

I just recently watched The Furies and it immediately reminded me of

There Will Be Blood. It almost felt like Anthony Mann's Citizen Kane.

I was expecting the film to be more of a Stanwyck flick, so I was surprised, pleasantly

so, to find out it was a Walter Huston film, and a good one. Interestingly, I find

T.C. (Walter Huston) to more likeable than Charles Foster Kane (Orson Welles) and

far more so than Daniel Plainview (Daniel Day-Lewis

 

I have never seen There Will Be Blood... it just NEVER seemed like a film for me (I think I was figuring it would be... too BLOODY. HA. I don't know WHERE I could have gotten THAT idea..ha) . As for CK... I can maybe see a few comparisons there...

 

I was completely taken by Huston's ability to carry a film like The Furies and he did

so with such verve. I cannot believe this was his final performance. He went out on a

very high note.

 

I have not seen any of the other films you mentioned (Tof SM ,etc,) and I have only maybe seen him in a few other roles that I can recall really well OTHER than TDADW... but I really do think he did a GREAT job w/ this one to be sure.

 

Vance (Barbara Stanwyck) was definitely "Daddy's Little Girl." Although, her name lets you know she was more like a son to T.C. than a daughter.... She was always seeking his approval. And when he didn't give her this, she became angry. She is very much her father's daughter and I fully believe she would look to run the Furies just as her father did.

 

I think Vance started out similar to the way you described... but she was also very determined to "stand up to him" in a lot of ways... (like wearing the mother's dress... or like when she danced w/ Rip after TC tried to "kick him out' of the wedding reception.) He more or less "created" her to be like him...smart (or maybe even cunning) brash, and very strong and independent.

 

She was "daddy's little girl" but a part of that involved showing Daddy he was NOT going to push her around. But I think she also knew her "limit" with him and likely only pushed him as far as she thought she could... at least for a TIME. But later in the story... in the "PF" scenes... (that would be POST Flo... ha) Well... I think I mentioned this earlier... . I think TC found out he did TOO good of a job of raising her. She became TOO strong. (of course it took him more or less murdering her closest friend to push her into that) But I think all in all, she must have gotten the BEST parts of his character... she was in NO way as blood thirsty and cut throat as he was when trying to get what she wanted.... but I know you and April have been having a different conversation about that... I will address that all in a moment.

 

I had warmed up to Vance and the story before Flo (Judith Anderson) had entered the

scene. It was Juan (Gilbert Roland) and Rip (Wendell Corey) who had helped me to

enjoy Vance more.

 

I think Juan was the one TRUE person she ever knew while she was growing up. And he did NOT challenge her in the same way her father did. TC was always challenging her to be strong or making her "support her stand" (if she disagreed with him)... but I think Juan was her only real "challenge" to be "good". She was free to be as "wild" or as "tough" as she wanted to be with him and yet she was "reigned in" by his caring and his compassion. It might even be HIS influence in her life (and possibly also her mothers.... though the story never says) that created the more "HUMAN" behavior in her. (example...She had a measure of "sympathy" in her for the "so called" squatters that TC did not have... even the "non-Herreras") The trouble was that Juan loved her like a "puppy". He never would have stood up to her in a way that would have REALLY made her "his". And we would not have been able to TRULY keep her... He was too "willing" a "servant" to her. If she HAD loved him.. she COULD have trampled all over him if she wanted to... and Juan would have let her... because he loved her. So even though I think she did love him, I just dont' think she was ever able to LOVE him the way he loved her.

 

She needed someone stronger in character and more "commanding" in the way he handled their relationship... she needed someone to "respect". (Someone who was not "trample-able"..ha.)

 

And Corey's character was ANYTHING but "trample-able"... He was stronger than Juan in a way that mght not have necessarily made her "good" but more in a way that kept her accountable. (even if only to herself) Rip DID NOT let her stomp all over him or lead him around. He did not fall at her feet (though she TRIED to make him do all that and more) . Instead.... he told her he was HIS OWN man... he would do his OWN thinking... and he would set the terms for their relationship. And (though it might not have been this way at FIRST) eventually, I think he did this (at least in part) because HE loved her. So in THAT sense... he was the better man for her. (April... forgive me... ha)

 

I still think he's a total jerk.

 

You like your guys tough! Here's your man:

 

Ha.. I like my guy(s) to be TRUE... :-)

 

When he took that $50,000 from TC... I was ready to shoot him down like the dog I thought he was (and then I would have propped him back up.. and shot him again...ha). But over time.. he starts to show that he is NOT the guy you really THINK he is...

Could this all be "experience talking?

 

Yes.... He KNOWS what it means to be in love with hate"... because HE has hated TC even longer than she has. But... does he continue to love to hate TC? Hmmmmm...

 

Ok.... here we go. Stick with me on all this. (ha... if you can) I will try to bring this all together eventually... (I TOLD you this was going to be a long one) Ha. :-)

 

The Grey Guy says:

I don't find either of them to be likeable. I believe both are terribly

selfish and hateful, and that's an ugly combination to possess. Now I say this while also

saying I was captivated by both characters.

 

The Goddess says:

I never really got to like either one. I feel like they were, in a way, lesser than T.C. in

terms of likability. He was awful but he enjoyed his awfulness, enjoyed life, and so long

as it didn't inconvenience him, he liked to see everyone around him enjoying his

awfulness, too!

 

The Grey Guy says:

That's how I felt, too. I didn't dislike T.C. I actually found him to be amiable... most of the time. He was engaging.

 

The Goddess says:

I don't think Rip or Vance cared if anyone else was enjoying life or not. It is a very

interesting, and in my opinion, accurate, depiction of the difference in the generations.

"Vance" was her father's daughter, but without his love of life or ability to be with all

kinds of people. TC was TC whether the room was full of ambassadors or ranch hands.

He was himself, and Huston was the perfect actor to embody that.

 

The Grey Guy says:

That was wonderfully said. I definitely believe Huston's manner helped me to like T.C. Missy

+and Corey had a very hard edge to them. They were both bitter people

 

Oh... I am going to feel like SUCH a "boat rocker" here... ha.

 

I DO agree with most of what you both are saying about TC.. but I DID have a VERY hard time actually "liking" him... Rather I more or less enjoyed "hating" him.. ha. (That is to Huston's credit... not TC's... he was "well played") Because he WAS played so well... I DO admit to enjoying the character... but that is not the same as "liking" him...ha I just more or less wanted to pop him upside the head about every other time he opened his mouth. (But I mean that in a GOOD way...ha) .

 

He DID become more likeable toward the end of things... But in truth... he was a murderous, cut throat, opportunistic, self absorbed MONSTER for most of the movie.. ha. Let's face it.. he had a LONG way to go. I DID start to feel sorry for him.... as I saw him really begin to realize things might be over for him someday... (when he wrestled the bull... to prove he was still King of the Furies... I think if he had NOT succeeded... he'd have been even MORE sympathetic...) I think toward the end of the story.. he becomes a LOT more like a REAL person and less like a "character".

 

And when it comes to your take on Vance and Rip... Oh... the boat is really tipping now... I really have to disagree....

 

Yes... she DID have a LOT of hate in her... I mean, come on... her dad killed her best friend, threw her "true love" for Rip in her face... tried to inflict the "stepmother from....... "San Francisco" (ha) upon her.... She had a LOT of hate going on for sure.

 

And TRUE.... she was self absorbed and "haughty" and CERTAINLY spoiled at the beginning... but I LOVED the way she turned all this around later on and drew on the strengths TC had instilled in her instead. And... despite ALL the water flowing under the bridge between her and TC... once victory was in sight... she began to see it as hollow.... and it caught her quite by surprise.

 

But it did NOT surprise RIP. His early motivations were "hate" as well.(TC killed his father and took their land, etc) But at some point... (I can't say for SURE when) he started to free himself from letting HATE be his motivating force. Did he still want to get back at the old man? Sure. Was he ever expecting to be "best buds" with TC? NO. But he DID start to show some strengths of character... and he showed that he wanted more than "revenge" and the Darrow Strip to go with it. He understood sooner than she did that "victory" over TC was NOT the thing that was going to make either of them happy.

 

 

And when she realizes he is right, she takes a "fatalistic" approach. I don't think she is expecting "happiness" but rather marriage was the "easiest" way to handle things for them now.

 

And HE steps up to the plate and shows her (for REAL this time) that he would NOT marry her on those terms. The first time they went down that road... I don't know if he loved her or not... but THIS time... finally... you get a sense that he IS in love with her... and he is not content to just "get the Darrow Strip"... OR "The Furies" for that matter. He wants HER... and he wants her to be HIS.

 

And this changes it all for both of them. After TC finds out he?s been beat, this WOULD be a perfect chance for her to gloat (if she truly hated him) But she doesn?t anymore.

 

And TC was quite the surprise as well... Rather than going off on a tirade... he actually PRAISES her. Instead of holding it against her, he is impressed. And somehow... they manage to both make peace. The hate is gone . And instead, TC brags on her and is more or less filled with ?fatherly pride? . If ANYONE else had beaten him, it would have gone a MUCH different way. But because it was HER, he saw it as a ?badge? of pride for himself (that HE was able to raise such a daughter)

 

And then when TC addresses Rip and asks him what he was getting out of the deal,

This WOULD be a perfect chance for Rip to gloat as well. And if you took his words out of context, it might SEEM that this is what he is doing.

But I think both men realize EVERYTHING has changed now. And if anything, it was a way for Rip to reaffirm his love for Vance. And show TC that he REALLY was not the man he had been judged to be so much earlier in the story. (when he took the dowry money as a "payoff"

 

I found myself really liking Rip by now... And then to just REALLY impress me, he goes and does THIS as well:

Ha.... Now THAT's my man.. ha.

 

So although it started out to be "revenge" for her to take the Furies from him.. it actually ends up be a form of "restoration" instead of a form of "retribution."

 

And when the REAL retribution catches up w/ TC.... he now knows, in the end, that his daughter, and The Furies ( and its future) are in GOOD hands.

 

No hate here at all:

 

So.... ok... at the beginning... RE: Vance and Rip... I TOTALLY disliked them both. Somewhere in the middle... I REALLY started to sympathize and (grudgingly) like her... but still hated him...

 

And then... FINALLY... I have to say... after sticking with these two... it took almost the whole movie, by the way... but.. by the end of it all... "I liked them". (I REALLY liked them.) :-)

 

Thanks for putting up with this REALLY long ramblin' reply... (what's all that SNORING going on out there????)

 

And Oh... PS: before I forget...ha The Furies, eh? What's next, Forty Guns

 

BLECH... ha Oh my golly.. I tried watching that a couple of months ago... Now THAT is one pukey movie... ha... talk about "hate"... ha.)

 

(I am sure I am going to live to regret THAT comment...ha)

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[rohanaka]

Duel In The Sun." July 5 - 3:30am and August 17 - 3:30am

 

I have to earn my M&Ms.

 

Woo HOO!! Thank you Mr. Secretary... I have put in my "reminder" request for TCM... now I will just need you to hit me over the head several dozen more times....ha.

 

Here's a little more incentive:

[movieman1957]

Yummmm!

 

BTW, I've moved "The Furies" up on my queue so I hope to see it early next week and I hope even more you all are still talking about it.

[HollywoodGolightly]

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on The Furies, Chris.

 

I just watched the movie again last night, it was even better than the first time, somehow I picked up on a lot of details that I probably hadn't caught when I first watched it. I especially liked the ending because there was some kind of poetic justice to it. But more than anything, I like to watch Barbara gets everything she wanted!

 

The other elements that are typical of many Mann western are all there, for sure, sometimes a single viewing is just not enough to fully appreciate them.

[MissGoddess]

M&Movieman!

 

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> Yummmm!

>

> BTW, I've moved "The Furies" up on my queue so I hope to see it early next week and I hope even more you all are still talking about it.

 

Judging by all the stuff Miss Peacemaker just gave us to chew on, I think we will be!

 

Terrific ramble, Ro!

[rohanaka]

Thanks April.... now I just need for you and the Grey Guy to come back in and tip my boat over... ha.

 

And... PS... Chris (and JACKIE???) and any other interested parties: I look forward to the ramblin'!!

 

This movie still has a LOT more that could be "chatted" on... but I have been blabbering TOO much... I will "pipe down" now and let some other folks get a word in edgewise...ha.

[FrankGrimes]

What a spectacular write-up, Quiet Gal! That was fantastic. I like that you are unafraid to

speak your peace and that you do so with genuine respect. Too bad I'm nothing like

you. I'm gonna bury you! That is, if I can find my shovel tonight. Any last words?

[rohanaka]

I'm gonna bury you! That is, if I can find my shovel tonight. Any last words?

 

 

(PS... tip away Grey Guy... I need a good swim.... ha)

 

Oh WAIT.... you said you were going to BURY me... ha. Even better... After all this latenight posting... I need a good REST!! ha.

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[MissGoddess]

You two are breaking me up!

 

I come peacable ma'am, no shovels or pistols on me. I even brought

a peace offering...

 

[rohanaka]

I even brought

a peace offering...

 

Woo hoo!!! CAKE!! You, my fair lass, may say ANYTHING you like!! ha (And PS... no peace offering needed.... but I like the way you think!!) Ha.

[HollywoodGolightly]

A cake as a peace offering is an interesting idea, indeed. Too bad T.C. didn't think to offer any kind of peace offering to Mama Herrera...

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=rohanaka wrote:}{quote}

> I even brought

> a peace offering...

>

> Woo hoo!!! CAKE!! You, my fair lass, may say ANYTHING you like!! ha (And PS... no peace offering needed.... but I like the way you think!!) Ha.

 

We needed something to accompany the M&Ms anyway. And I'm sure

MrGrimes is fond of "Devil's Food".

[movieman1957]

Like Sir Francis, I love Devil's Food cake. Sprinkled with M&Ms? Hmmmm?

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> Like Sir Francis, I love Devil's Food cake. Sprinkled with M&Ms? Hmmmm?

 

Now I was sure you preferred Angel's Food.

 

I guess you couldn't see the top the way I was holding it before...here's another view:

 

[movieman1957]

Chocolate, movies and music are my life. It looks good.

[JackFavell]

Whew. I finally watched *The Furies*.

 

I really loved this movie. Loved the music.... loved the photography, and the look of the movie. Loved the story, the characters and the sets. Really loved the writing. Everyone got a good line on their exits. Except perhaps Elvis.

 

And yes, it reminded me of Greek tragedy, but with a little spin. Father/daughter relationship intruded upon by the awful Flo.... Father must be vanquished in order for daughter to have a new lover.... etc.

 

Does Blanche Yurka EVER play a role without spitting? or cackling?

 

The cast was without fail, superb..... but....

 

_Really_. Who chooses WENDELL COREY when you could have:

 

 

Babs even looks her prettiest when she is with him.

 

(click for large)

 

I really had to suspend my disbelief here.

 

Message was edited by: JackFavell

[MissGoddess]

I really loved this movie. Loved the music.... loved the photography, and the look of the movie. Loved the story, the characters and the sets. Really loved the writing.

 

Yippee!!

 

Does Blanche Yurka EVER play a role without spitting? or cackling?

 

Ha! whenever the witches of Endor are unavailable for casting, they send in Blanche.

 

Really. Who chooses WENDELL COREY when you could have:

 

Oh my goodness, YES, it boggles the mind. She honestly seemed to come

alive and I wasn't exaggerating when I said I liked Vance a lot more in her

scenes with Juan. He brought out her warmth and heart and spirituality, if you

will. Like you said, she even looks prettier!

[JackFavell]

Call me crazy, but I loved T.C. My dad makes T.C. look like a sweetheart. Their family life seemed normal to me.

 

 

T.C. was not twisted or sick, he was forthright and did what he had to do. That's how he got where he was, and any other man of his time would have had to do the same to make a life for himself of the kind T.C. thirsted for. He was top dog and wanted to stay that way till the end. I don't blame him, because there would be nothing worse for that kind of man than to lose his status. I don't mean money.... he was strong enough to make things work for him again, even late in life.... I mean status/power. He made mistakes, and he himself says that he is cold (haunted) since he killed Juan. In other words, he felt remorse. I wonder if he had lived, how that three way split would have gone over..... I see T. C. eventually up to his old tricks again. And as for Flo, I think he neither married her, nor would he have taken her back to The Furies. She really loses out in the end of this story big time. T.C.'s nature was not one to help the dogs that are injured in the fight..... but to let them die. Very Machiavellian, but necessary if one wants to be "The Prince".

 

I empathized with Vance, because the one I really disliked was Flo. The phony, high falutin' usurper made me want to ..... well, stab her in the eye. The way she greeted Vance, who was coming into her own home made me want to throw up. Every time Vance walked in, she would say, "Come in, my dear, come in...." as if she owned the place... *I can't stand that kind of presumption and gamesmanship masquerading as manners.* it's so phony and unctious. I believe it was on purpose on Flo's part, it was a way to put Vance in her place . Flo wanted to show Vance who was top dog. I came to like Flo a bit more in that scene she had with T.C. later, but she got what she deserved.... to look like on the outside what she was on the inside. She reminded me of Trixie Delight in Paper Moon.

 

I don't know if I should even bring his up. I liked the whole female slant of the movie. Here we start out the movie thinking that the men are the top dogs, and really, it was the women who were in charge all along:

 

 

 

[rohanaka]

Woo HOO! The Oklahoma Kid is in the house!! :-)

 

I am glad to see you here, little gal. And am glad you got a chance to see this one...

 

I LOVE your "women in charge" angle... The one person (besides Juan) that I WISH had been on screen if only just a LITTLE longer was sweet little BEULAH... oh... but she made GOOD use of the time she had... ha.

 

And re: Roland VS Corey.... If it was ONLY about looks.... ha. SIGH.. (and then there is the name... Roland... I do have a special love for that as well.... ha.) :-)

 

Wow... from the responses so far from everybody... it is starting to look like I am in for some really INTERESTING commentary... YEE HAW!

 

PS... April.... . OH ME OH MY.... that second shot of your cake... what is this??? Pay back to me for those Hot Fudge Brownie photos I posted last weekend?? ha.

 

And PSS... NO cake for the Grey Guy... he only eats "Saw dust" (and likes it...ha) So you know... that just means more for the rest of us.

[JackFavell]

Hey, Ro-ro!

 

Yes, I loved that cameo by Beulah.... and she got one fo the great exit lines too.. "My husband is a faithless one, but he is my husband."

 

Why did the name Niven Busch stand out to me at the beginning of the film? Maybe as the writer of The Westerner?

[HollywoodGolightly]

If I'd been in her shoes, I'm sure Juan Herrera might have seemed the better choice, by far.

 

 

In the end, Juan helped her much more than Darrow did. Everything she accomplished in the end, she probably wouldn't have if it had not been for how she felt about T.C., for what he did to Juan:

 

[MissGoddess]

Hello, there Ben's Babe!

 

I'm with you all the way about T.C. and what a very interesting take on Flo,

who took a page or two from Machiavelli. She was, as you say, playing

games from the start and the fact that T.C. picked her up in Washington is

the tip off that she plays them for HIGH STAKES. And she's good at it

because when women are influential in D.C. they are dangerous indeed

and there's no trick you can pull to outfox them.

 

Getting back to what you said earlier, Miss Peacemaker, about how you

noticed Vance's "development", I find it interesting that Vance isn't up for such

games at that point when Flo flies in---she only knows how to go straight at things

like a "bull", she's completely flummoxed by the insidious manipulations that suddenly

have her on the outside looking in---right in her very home.

 

Also intersting is that I consider Rip to be a similar game player, though his

motives are simpler and perhaps "purer", if you will. But like Flo he chooses

to use smart and careful moves instead chutzpah, even if it's slower.

 

Like MrGrimes said, Vance really is her father's daughter, and she has to

learn how to play the game with subtlety because she just wasn't brought

up that way.

 

Now, against all this is Juan and what a breath of fresh, clear, air he is. Air

straight from the heights where his people have made their "lair". It's appropriate

because really and truly, Juan and his people seem to be so much more a part

of the land, not just its conquerors as the Jeffords are.

[JackFavell]

Hello, Gilberto's Gal!

 

After Juan's death, when she goes to Rip to ask him for the money to buy up the T C's,and he tries to get back with her? I almost thought that she was going to tell him he wasn't the one anymore, that she realized that Juan was the better man even dead......I would have loved to see her say that, but I guess it wouldn't be a fifties movie if that had happened.

 

This is the guy for me, forget the "player" :