Western Movie Rambles

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> Hello, Gilberto's Gal!

>

> After Juan's death, when she goes to Rip to ask him for the money to buy up the T C's,and he tries to get back with her? I almost thought that she was going to tell him he wasn't the one anymore, that she realized that Juan was the better man even dead......I would have loved to see her say that, but I guess it wouldn't be a fifties movie if that had happened.

>

 

I felt that way, too---every time they'd say "Till our eyes meet again" I thought, "she's

going to realize THIS is the man..."

 

Fantastic screenshots, MissFavell, the images are strong, like the man. My favorite

scenes take place at that exciting rockplace.

[rohanaka]

So what you gals are saying is.... you don't give a RIP about Rip.... ha. (Oh... I feel so all alone) ha.

 

I DO agree Juan would have been a FINE choice for her.... but VANCE would have been a ROTTEN choice for HIM. He did seem to bring out the best in her.... but that only went so far. Eventually she would have hurt him far more by staying WITH him... than she ever would if he just kept on loving her from "afar". (had he LIVED, that is....)

 

If they had "gotten together", she would have... (What's that old expression???) "Walked all over his heart and STOMPED that sucker flat". HA! He was far too good for her. Poor Juan deserved better...

 

Maybe that is why I think Rip was the right choice... He had just the right amount of "rotten" to stand up to her...

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[JackFavell]

I agree with you, Ro! And although not my favorite leading man, Wendell brought a bit of sexiness to his role which surprised me. Vance needed a man like her father I guess. Now if she really wanted to get her father's goat, she would have run off with Juan..... but on some level, she wanted T.C.'s approval. I still think the stronger man was Juan....any man who can go to his death like that..... wow.

[MissGoddess]

Howdy ladies!

 

Miss Peacemaker, I think BB (that's Ben's Babe) said what I feel about the "triangle" there with

Rip, Vance and Juan, brilliantly. So I agree with you that Rip is better for Vance---or shall we

say this: They deserve each other.

[FrankGrimes]

SPOILED T.C.'s

 

Howdy, Quiet Gal -- (just dont' call me the PEASmaker... I hate those malevolent

little green POD creatures... ha. The poor QT and kidling.... they love those slimy

things... I only fix them if I HAVE to... ha... PEAS are one of the FEW veggies I can't

make PEACE with.. ha)

 

A-ha! So I'm not the only one around here who has some problems with veggies.

 

I have never seen There Will Be Blood... it just NEVER seemed like a film for

me (I think I was figuring it would be... too BLOODY. HA. I don't know WHERE I could

have gotten THAT idea..ha) . As for CK... I can maybe see a few comparisons there.

 

You would hate There Will Be Blood and you'd end up liking T.C. after seeing

Daniel Plainview.

 

I have not seen any of the other films you mentioned (Tof SM ,etc,) and I have only

maybe seen him in a few other roles that I can recall really well OTHER than

TDADW... but I really do think he did a GREAT job w/ this one to be sure.

 

The Treasure of the Sierra Madre is a masculine film, but I think you'd like it. Huston

and Bogie are sensational.

 

I think Vance started out similar to the way you described... but she was also very

determined to "stand up to him" in a lot of ways... (like wearing the mother's dress... or

like when she danced w/ Rip after TC tried to "kick him out' of the wedding reception.) He

more or less "created" her to be like him...smart (or maybe even cunning) brash, and very

strong and independent.

 

There's a lot of truth to what you say. Vance is the kind of person who doesn't like being

pushed around. She is extremely stubborn. She wishes to get back at anyone who goes

against her wishes. This most definitely includes her father. But here's the thing, she

doesn't like ANYONE ELSE attacking her father. She can do it, but no one else can. I think

Vance lets her emotions run her far more than T.C. does.

 

She was "daddy's little girl" but a part of that involved showing Daddy he was NOT

going to push her around. But I think she also knew her "limit" with him and likely

only pushed him as far as she thought she could... at least for a TIME. But later

in the story... in the "PF" scenes... (that would be POST Flo... ha) Well... I think

I mentioned this earlier... . I think TC found out he did TOO good of a job of raising

her. She became TOO strong. (of course it took him more or less murdering her

closest friend to push her into that) But I think all in all, she must have gotten the

BEST parts of his character... she was in NO way as blood thirsty and cut throat

as he was when trying to get what she wanted.... but I know you and April have

been having a different conversation about that... I will address that all in a moment.

 

See, I actually think she IS bloodthirsty and cutthroat... we just haven't seen it yet. I think

she's a chip off the ol' block. She's not going to let anyone take the Furies from her. I'm of

the belief she will become more and more like her father, in time.

 

I think Juan was the one TRUE person she ever knew while she was growing up. And

he did NOT challenge her in the same way her father did. TC was always challenging

her to be strong or making her "support her stand" (if she disagreed with him)... but

I think Juan was her only real "challenge" to be "good". She was free to be as "wild"

or as "tough" as she wanted to be with him and yet she was "reigned in" by his caring

and his compassion. It might even be HIS influence in her life (and possibly also her

mothers.... though the story never says) that created the more "HUMAN" behavior in

her. (example...She had a measure of "sympathy" in her for the "so called" squatters

that TC did not have... even the "non-Herreras")

 

That was very well said. I definitely believe Vance's close relationship with Juan made

her care about the squatters. Without that, she wouldn't give a darn about them. Still,

when push came to shove, she chose the Furies over the squatters. Her sympathy only

went so far. In otherwords, she will choose her father over any.

 

The trouble was that Juan loved her like a "puppy". He never would have stood up to

her in a way that would have REALLY made her "his". And we would not have been

able to TRULY keep her... He was too "willing" a "servant" to her. If she HAD loved

him.. she COULD have trampled all over him if she wanted to... and Juan would have

let her... because he loved her. So even though I think she did love him, I just dont'

think she was ever able to LOVE him the way he loved her.

 

She needed someone stronger in character and more "commanding" in the way he

handled their relationship... she needed someone to "respect". (Someone who was

not "trample-able"..ha.)

 

 

I come at this from a different angle. You are right, Juan wasn't interested in being right

with Vance. That wasn't important to him. Her happiness was more important to him. He

was very happy to finish second place to her first place. Rip is the kind of guy who is

going to try and win the race. He wants to beat Vance. She likes that kind of challenge.

 

 

Was Juan the kind of man Vance could trample over? I actually don't believe so. I think

Juan is much stronger and SMARTER than you give him credit for being. He chose his

battles with Vance. He knows what is important to stand up for and what isn't. He

understands her; he knows her buttons.

 

Here is Juan "slapping" Vance:

 

 

Juan "gets" Vance:

 

 

Vance has a different kind of love/hate relationship with Juan:

 

 

 

 

I don't think Juan was into "making her his." That's not love to him, nor me, for

that matter. And guess what I'm going to do again? Yep, reference

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. I believe Doniphon could have been much

tougher and harsher on Ranse if he wanted to. He could have run him out of town. He

could have "made" Hallie his. So why didn't he? Because he wanted Hallie to

decide. He wanted her to be happy. Just like Juan, Doniphon knew what was up. He

knew his girl. Both men sacrifice their own lives for the happiness of their only love.

 

 

 

And Corey's character was ANYTHING but "trample-able"... He was stronger than

Juan in a way that mght not have necessarily made her "good" but more in a way that

kept her accountable. (even if only to herself) Rip DID NOT let her stomp all over him or

lead him around. He did not fall at her feet (though she TRIED to make him do all that

and more) . Instead.... he told her he was HIS OWN man... he would do his OWN

thinking... and he would set the terms for their relationship. And (though it might not

have been this way at FIRST) eventually, I think he did this (at least in part) because

HE loved her. So in THAT sense... he was the better man for her. (April... forgive me... ha)

 

I agree and disagree with you on some of your points. I do believe Vance was turned on by

Rip's rough manner with her, his being a businessman, and, most importantly, that she

saw her father in him. I think Rip was turned on by Vance's willingness to take it and give

it right back. He liked her moxie. I also believe both liked challenges and each saw the

other as just that. They liked the power struggle. Theirs was a love/hate relationship. They

really are two of a kind.

 

Can a relationship like this last? I suppose. But it's going to be tough... very tough. They

need drama to be happy.

 

But I do agree with you, I think Vance needed a man like Rip more so than Juan. Juan was

merely her oasis on the Furies. He had the power to lift her up when she was down, but

Rip is the kind of guy who would constantly push and motivate Vance.

 

 

 

 

 

Ha.. I like my guy(s) to be TRUE.

 

I'd trust Juan before I'd ever trust a businessman like Rip.

 

 

When he took that $50,000 from TC... I was ready to shoot him down like the dog

I thought he was (and then I would have propped him back up.. and shot him

again...ha). But over time.. he starts to show that he is NOT the guy you really

THINK he is...

 

Yes.... He KNOWS what it means to be in love with hate"... because HE has hated

TC even longer than she has. But... does he continue to love to hate TC? Hmmmmm.

 

Rip's motivation was to get the Darrow Strip back. That was his mission. He was at first

fueled by hate but I do believe that started to subside. Still, his mission remained.

 

I DO agree with most of what you both are saying about TC.. but I DID have a VERY

hard time actually "liking" him... Rather I more or less enjoyed "hating" him.. ha. (That

is to Huston's credit... not TC's... he was "well played") Because he WAS played so

well... I DO admit to enjoying the character... but that is not the same as "liking"

him...ha I just more or less wanted to pop him upside the head about every other

time he opened his mouth. (But I mean that in a GOOD way...ha) .

 

He DID become more likeable toward the end of things... But in truth... he was

a murderous, cut throat, opportunistic, self absorbed MONSTER for most of the

movie.. ha. Let's face it.. he had a LONG way to go. I DID start to feel sorry for

him.... as I saw him really begin to realize things might be over for him

someday... (when he wrestled the bull... to prove he was still King of the

Furies... I think if he had NOT succeeded... he'd have been even MORE

sympathetic...) I think toward the end of the story.. he becomes a LOT more

like a REAL person and less like a "character".

 

I think what I'm reacting to more is the charm of T.C. His manner is different than that of

Vance's or Rip's. I found Vance and Rip's manner to be very cold and calculating. They

were even more driven than T.C. T.C. goes up and down throughout the film. We see him

defeated more than once and he doesn't turn bitter, he just shrugs it off and attempts to

think of another way. Every time I see Rip or Vance, I see bitterness. They are two snakes,

looking to strike. They are the ones who are out to ruin.

 

Where I felt T.C. was at his coldest were when he felt threatened by the potential loss of

his daughter to a man. He didn't like any man for his daughter. You really see T.C.'s

backbone then. But when T.C. is with Flo, we see a different man. He's much more loose

and playful. Do we ever see this with Rip and Vance? They are always so damn uptight.

Everything they do is harsh, including their kisses. T.C. is actually gentle with his

love. He actually has a very soft side to him. The only time we really see a soft side with

Vance is when she's with Juan. The rest of the time she is on edge. It's as if she's both

anticipating and wanting someone to slap her face, not kiss it.

 

 

But it did NOT surprise RIP. His early motivations were "hate" as well.(TC killed his

father and took their land, etc) But at some point... (I can't say for SURE when) he

started to free himself from letting HATE be his motivating force. Did he still want

to get back at the old man? Sure. Was he ever expecting to be "best buds" with

TC? NO. But he DID start to show some strengths of character... and he showed

that he wanted more than "revenge" and the Darrow Strip to go with it. He

understood sooner than she did that "victory" over TC was NOT the thing that

was going to make either of them happy.

 

But Vance and Rip still went through with it. Nothing was going to get in their way of

doing it. They may have some remorse for their actions after the fact, but I have

a feeling they wouldn't want to give up what they got. T.C. was very much same. He sure

did take delight in teasing and taunting his daughter about Rip showing her up, but he

quickly stops laughing and comforts her when he sees how much she is hurt. Still, he GETS

WHAT HE WANTS. Just as Vance and Rip do. And that's the bottom line with bottom-liners.

 

And HE steps up to the plate and shows her (for REAL this time) that he would

NOT marry her on those terms. The first time they went down that road... I don't

know if he loved her or not... but THIS time... finally... you get a sense that he

IS in love with her... and he is not content to just "get the Darrow Strip"... OR

"The Furies" for that matter. He wants HER... and he wants her to be HIS.

 

I do believe Rip is in love with Vance more than she is in love with him. He's rather taken by

her. Do you really believe Vance is going to allow Rip to control her? Do you really believe

anyone is going to come between her and HER Furies? Do you really think Rip can come

close to living up to Vance's view of T.C.? You want to talk about boats being rocked. The

next power struggle will be their child. It's never ending.

 

Here is a moment where I DO believe Vance admits her love for Rip:

 

 

 

 

And then when TC addresses Rip and asks him what he was getting out of the deal,

This WOULD be a perfect chance for Rip to gloat as well. And if you took his words out of context, it might SEEM that this is what he is doing.

 

But I think both men realize EVERYTHING has changed now. And if anything, it was a way for Rip to reaffirm his love for Vance. And show TC that he REALLY was not the man he had been judged to be so much earlier in the story. (when he took the dowry money as a "payoff"

 

But I think Rip's words of "And I don't think I'll stop aching till I have a son who'll own the

whole Furies" ARE boastful. He's not stopping at the Darrow Strip. He had to shove T.C.'s

face in the mud even more by telling him he's taking it ALL from him. Rip is not content with

getting back the Darrow Strip. Not at all. He wants to rip the heart out of T.C.

 

So although it started out to be "revenge" for her to take the Furies from him.. it actually

ends up be a form of "restoration" instead of a form of "retribution."

 

I didn't see it like that. I saw it as Vance and Rip winning a battle, but not a war. T.C. is

the kind of guy who admits defeat... at first. But he moves on to the next day, and the next

day will be all about getting back HIS Furies. He's not bitter like Vance and Rip, but he's

definitely proud and driven.

 

And when the REAL retribution catches up w/ TC.... he now knows, in the end, that his daughter, and The Furies ( and its future) are in GOOD hands.

 

If it's not him, he wishes it to be in the hands of his daughter. So, you are right, he can die

in some peace. He DOESN'T want Rip's hands on his Furies, though. No way.

 

No hate here at all:

 

Not yet. But you give it some time and Rip will come to hate T.C. because he will not be his

own man with Vance. T.C. will still haunt him. Vance will make sure of this. "You're no

T.C.!"

 

And Oh... PS: before I forget...ha The Furies, eh? What's next, Forty Guns

 

BLECH... ha Oh my golly.. I tried watching that a couple of months ago... Now THAT is one pukey movie... ha... talk about "hate"... ha.)

 

More Stanwyck! Plus that one features a guy I really like. He's a man's man to me. He's a

straight shooter. He's no snake with a phony smile, like Rip. Perfect casting of Corey,

by the way.

 

By the way, I just love this kind of discussion. Your comments have pushed me to think

much deeper about The Furies. I love it. Thank you. And I think that's the great value

of "Rambles." It's not about saying "I like so-and-so actor or director or music" and leaving it

at that. It's about digging deeper into the story. I find deep discussion to be far more

rewarding than surface discussion. I find it to be far more revealing of others and ourselves.

 

 

[MissGoddess]

Wow, it is a DARK DAY AT TCM.

 

Why?

 

Because I found I agree with everything FrankGrimes has written about a movie.

 

Run for cover!

 

More later...if I survive...

[rohanaka]

By the way, I just love this kind of discussion

 

Oh Mr. Grey... that is a very good thing.... because... well.. I don't have time to respond to all this right now.... but.... I will be back... and then.... Hmmmmmmm...

 

There will be blood...

 

[HollywoodGolightly]

There have been a great many interesting ramblings about The Furies - I'd like to get to those later, if I may. Before doing that, however, I'd like to take a few minutes to gather my thoughts and express my thoughts this great Anthony Mann western, which I only saw for a 2nd time just the other day.

 

 

First of all, I am exceedingly glad that the Criterion Collection was able to license this movie from Paramount Pictures. It would be very difficult indeed to even watch this movie otherwise, given Paramount's little interest in releasing this on home video.

 

Being able to watch this on the gorgeous-looking DVD released by Criterion has made it possible for me to enjoy the movie's many great attributes; this was one of the first of many westerns Mann would direct, and in some ways, perhaps the most idiosyncratic, since it's such an odd mixture of a woman's picture and a conventional western.

 

There's a great deal to enjoy, too, in the performances here, from Walter Huston's wonderful T.C. Jeffords (in the final performance of his long and distinguished career) to the great Barbara Stanwyck in the role of his daughter, Vance - this would be the first in a long string of memorable performances in 50s westerns such as Cattle Queen of Montana, The Violent Men and Forty Guns that would more or less cap her long career in the movies (though she'd be active in television for many more years).

 

The Furies also includes one of the better roles that Mexican-born Gilbert Roland would play in the 50s - a decade that for him also included great films like Bullfighter and the Lady, The Bad and the Beautiful and a small part in Around the World in 80 Days. (For a foreign-born actor who'd been around since the silent days, it wasn't a bad decade at all)

 

Then, there's the story, which among other things is the first to suggest Mann's long-running fascination with the character of King Lear, from which some traits would be borrowed for the T.C. character in The Furies, Donald Crisp's aging patriarch in The Man From Laramie, and Lee J. Cobb's nefarious gang leader in Man of the West.

 

In The Furies, however, T.C.'s son Clay (John Bromfield) doesn't really play a large role; in fact he's all but forgotten by the movie's last third, which follows instead the father-daughter rivalry, driven in part by T.C.'s neglect for his own ranch, his plans to marry the well-connected and conniving Flo Burnett (Judith Anderson); and more importantly of all, his bloodthirsty treatment of Vance's lifelong friend Juan Herrera (Roland).

 

 

The movie makes it hard not to sympathize with Vance's plight, even though you never really stop feeling some sympathy for T.C., either - not an easy feat. Vance's thirst for revenge against her own father drives her back into the hands of an old flame who once cruelly rejected her, Rip Darrow (the great Wendell Corey).

 

With his innate ability to seem almost simultaneously comforting and menacing, Corey was a great choice to play this wild card of a man - someone you're rooting for, then against, then for again, once his help becomes essential for Vance to get her comeuppance and wrest control of The Furies from her own father.

 

While the story is gripping from beginning to end, much credit for making The Furies such a beautiful cinematic treat also should go to Franz Waxman's great score and Victor Milner's gorgeous black-and-white cinematography. (Waxman would go on to win the Oscar in 1951 for A Place in the Sun; Milner had won long ago for Cleopatra in 1934).

 

Whether you're interested in it because you like westerns, or because you're a Barbara Stanwyck or Anthony Mann fan, The Furies is a treat to watch!

[FrankGrimes]

Yeehaw, Quiet Gal -- Oh Mr. Grey... that is a very good thing.... because... well.

I don't have time to respond to all this right now.... but.... I will be back... and then.... Hmmmmmmm... There will be blood.

 

You got a laugh out of me! Very clever.

 

Howdy, Fordy Guns -- Wow, it is a DARK DAY AT TCM. Why? Because

I found I agree with everything FrankGrimes has written about a movie. Run for

cover! More later...if I survive.

 

Ohhh, Quiet Gal. Please bring your noose. I'd rather hang than have wrongheaded gals

with horrid taste agree with me. And, no, this won't be a sacrifical hanging, it's to get the

heck out of here!

[MissGoddess]

>

> Ohhh, Quiet Gal. Please bring your noose. I'd rather hang than have wrongheaded gals

> with horrid taste agree with me. And, no, this won't be a sacrifical hanging, it's to get the

> heck out of here!

 

How do you think I feel!?

[FrankGrimes]

How do you think I feel!?

 

Blonde?

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> How do you think I feel!?

>

> Blonde?

 

Yes, and now annoyed.

[FrankGrimes]

Yes, and now annoyed.

 

You must be reading your own words. Now you know how we all feel!

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Yes, and now annoyed.

>

> You must be reading your own words. Now you know how we all feel!

 

No, but I have a bead on how your relatives must feel.

[FrankGrimes]

No, but I have a bead on how your relatives must feel.

 

Numb? Stupified?

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> No, but I have a bead on how your relatives must feel.

>

> Numb? Stupified?

 

Not at home when the doorbell rings.

[FrankGrimes]

Not at home when the doorbell rings.

 

Ohhh, that's not just my relatives.

[MissGoddess]

Ha!

[FrankGrimes]

Nice to see you on the trail, Cowgirl -- You seem to be enjoying westerns. I like it!

 

Call me crazy, but I loved T.C. My dad makes T.C. look like a sweetheart. Their family

life seemed normal to me.

 

I like you and your can of worms.

 

T.C. was not twisted or sick, he was forthright and did what he had to do. That's how

he got where he was, and any other man of his time would have had to do the same to

make a life for himself of the kind T.C. thirsted for. He was top dog and wanted to stay

that way till the end. I don't blame him, because there would be nothing worse for that

kind of man than to lose his status. I don't mean money.... he was strong enough to

make things work for him again, even late in life.... I mean status/power. He made

mistakes, and he himself says that he is cold (haunted) since he killed Juan. In other

words, he felt remorse. I wonder if he had lived, how that three way split would have

gone over..... I see T. C. eventually up to his old tricks again.

 

That's pretty much how I view T.C. And I don't see T.C. taking a backseat to anyone. He

wasn't going to accept any 3-way partnership. Ohhh, heck no. You're not going to keep him

down for long.

 

And as for Flo, I think he neither married her, nor would he have taken her back to

The Furies. She really loses out in the end of this story big time. T.C.'s nature was

not one to help the dogs that are injured in the fight..... but to let them die. Very

Machiavellian, but necessary if one wants to be "The Prince".

 

I completely agree with that and Flo knew this, as well. This is why she refuses to give him

her money and he actually respects her decision not to. They actually understood each

other quite well.

 

I empathized with Vance, because the one I really disliked was Flo. The phony, high

falutin' usurper made me want to ..... well, stab her in the eye. The way she greeted

Vance, who was coming into her own home made me want to throw up. Every time

Vance walked in, she would say, "Come in, my dear, come in...." as if she owned the

place... I can't stand that kind of presumption and gamesmanship masquerading as

manners. it's so phony and unctious. I believe it was on purpose on Flo's part, it was

a way to put Vance in her place . Flo wanted to show Vance who was top dog. I came

to like Flo a bit more in that scene she had with T.C. later, but she got what she

deserved.... to look like on the outside what she was on the inside. She reminded

me of Trixie Delight in Paper Moon.

 

I loved reading your words about Flo. Your emotion really comes through.

 

I really like the character "Flo." I think she's a shining example of what power to

powerless looks like. She revelled in her power before and now she wallows in her worthlessness. Yet another tragic figure in this tale.

 

I don't know if I should even bring his up. I liked the whole female slant of the

movie. Here we start out the movie thinking that the men are the top dogs, and

really, it was the women who were in charge all along:

 

You think, huh? I believe T.C. was in charge of all, he just wrote too many T.C.'s he

couldn't cash. And even though he didn't own the rights to the Furies at the end, I believe

he is still top dog with Vance. I thought you hit the nail on the head with these words:

 

she wanted T.C.'s approval.

 

Very much so. You got it right. She wants to hear she is a "chip off the old block." When

T.C. tells her this, she lights up. T.C. is definitely proud of his daughter, but I also think he

was looking to charm his way back.

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Nice to see you on the trail, Cowgirl -- *You seem to be enjoying westerns.* I like it!

 

I am enjoying the epic quality they have. They go where a lot of films don't. And I like the onion like peeling off of deep underlying meanings..... reminds me of why I loved acting when I did theatre. Oh, yeah, and the MEN. You can thank Tom AND Rance for my long buried interest in the first place...

 

 

> *I like you and your can of worms.*

 

You asked why I get irritated when women aren't listened to....

 

> *That's pretty much how I view T.C. And I don't see T.C. taking a backseat to anyone. He*

>*wasn't going to accept any 3-way partnership. Ohhh, heck no. You're not going to keep him*

>*down for long.*

 

One of the most charming things about him..... No doubt and self recrimination, or very slight anyway.... he is actually what i would like to be.... able to get up and get on with it rather than falling into guilt or self pity.

 

> And as for Flo, I think he neither married her, nor would he have taken her back to

> The Furies. She really loses out in the end of this story big time. T.C.'s nature was

> not one to help the dogs that are injured in the fight..... but to let them die. Very

> Machiavellian, but necessary if one wants to be "The Prince".

>

> *I completely agree with that and Flo knew this, as well. This is why she refuses to give him her money and he actually respects her decision not to. They actually understood each other quite well.*

 

Yes, they recognized one another in the end.... because they were simply using each other in the first place. T.C. wanted her money or ability to get money and the standing she would bring to The Furies. She wanted his property and the security of his name in her declining years..... a true business partnership. Ironic, isn't it? Neither got what they wanted. In failing so badly, each achieved something neither had before - understanding. But understanding doesn't amount to much at The Furies.

 

> I empathized with Vance, because the one I really disliked was Flo. The phony, high

> falutin' usurper made me want to ..... well, stab her in the eye. The way she greeted

> Vance, who was coming into her own home made me want to throw up. Every time

> Vance walked in, she would say, "Come in, my dear, come in...." as if she owned the

> place... I can't stand that kind of presumption and gamesmanship masquerading as

> manners. it's so phony and unctious. I believe it was on purpose on Flo's part, it was

> a way to put Vance in her place . Flo wanted to show Vance who was top dog. I came

> to like Flo a bit more in that scene she had with T.C. later, but she got what she

> deserved.... to look like on the outside what she was on the inside. She reminded

> me of Trixie Delight in Paper Moon.

>

> *I loved reading your words about Flo. Your emotion really comes through.*

 

Does it show?

 

 

> I really like the character "Flo." I think she's a shining example of what power to

> powerless looks like. She revelled in her power before and now she wallows in her worthlessness. Yet another tragic figure in this tale.

 

I loved Judith Anderson in this one, especially knowing her best as Danny in Rebecca. From the moment she stepped out of the carriage door, her presence was felt. I liked her worldly, almost silly air as contrasted to Barbara Stanwyck's straight to the point Vance. In fact, some of my favorite scenes were between these two pros:

 

Silly gets you far in Washington. Not so much at The Furies.....They immediately understand one another, too.

 

She's taken possession already. Vance is the outsider now.

 

Everything she does is to put Vance at a disadvantage, to remove her from the site. All done with the pretense of motherly affection. It disgusts me!

 

I like the faint glimmer of a smile here, the arched eyebrow, and the gleeful rubbing together of her hands. She just checkmated Vance.

 

There are a few more moves left, like this one here, but she has won. Or has she?

 

 

 

> I don't know if I should even bring his up. I liked the whole female slant of the

> movie. Here we start out the movie thinking that the men are the top dogs, and

> really, it was the women who were in charge all along:

>

> *You think, huh? I believe T.C. was in charge of all, he just wrote too many T.C.'s he couldn't cash.*

 

So that makes me wonder, did T. C. bring Flo there to goad Vance in the first place? Did he realize Flo was just out to take The Furies? Why was he so blind, always saying "That's what I like to see, my girls getting along?" Why suddenly did he need a woman after all these years? Did he know that Flo would just make Vance stronger in the end? I don't think so. I think he was deluded thinking he could control his women. He could control everything else, but not women.

 

>*And even though he didn't own the rights to the Furies at the end, I believe he is still top dog with Vance. I thought you hit the nail on the head with these words:*

> she wanted T.C.'s approval.

>

> *Very much so. You got it right. She wants to hear she is a "chip off the old block." When T.C. tells her this, she lights up. T.C. is definitely proud of his daughter, but I also think he was looking to charm his way back.*

 

I completely agree. Yuck. There's a bad taste in my mouth. Must be worms.

[HollywoodGolightly]

Well, I think I'd agree that poor T.C. definitely "misunderestimated" the women in his life. But at least with Vance, he could take solace in knowing he raised her, and taught her to hold her ground against anyone; not so with Flo, of course, who was just there to try to steal The Furies from them. And there's no question that with Barbara and Judith, you've two top-notch actors going at it. There's the so-called "women's picture" element of The Furies which makes it so much more than just a western.

[FrankGrimes]

Good afternoon, Jack -- Hope you are having a very nice Father's Day. I hope your Juan and T.C. are doing very well.

 

I am enjoying the epic quality they have. They go where a lot of films don't. And I like

the onion like peeling off of deep underlying meanings..... reminds me of why I loved

acting when I did theatre.

 

So you took theatre very seriously. Very cool.

 

I wasn't sure if you'd like westerns or not since I do find them to be mostly masculine,

for the most part. But you are very right, westerns do end up taking you places where many

other films don't or even can't. I always imagined they were just cowboys and indians,

and the thought of that bored me. When I found out they were very human stories in

western settings, I was hooked.

 

Oh, yeah, and the MEN. You can thank Tom AND Rance for my long buried interest

in the first place.

 

It always comes back to the men with you, doesn't it? Why am I not surprised? Ford

floozy! And since I have called you a name, I must mean it with all my heart.

 

You asked why I get irritated when women aren't listened to.

 

And I was blaming someone else. I never knew. Just so you know, I see a lot of my mom

in "Vance." My country grandpa was her "T.C." She takes great pride in being told she is

just like her father, meaning just as tough.

 

I'm someone who listens... and pays attention. It's not that difficult if you actually put just a

little effort into caring. You're not going to know your child if you spend just ten minutes a day

with them.

 

One of the most charming things about him..... No doubt and self recrimination, or

very slight anyway.... he is actually what i would like to be.... able to get up and get

on with it rather than falling into guilt or self pity.

 

I hear ya. I'm the same as you with this. But I actually like myself more than T.C. when it

comes to placing others before myself. However, I'd be better off in life if I were the

opposite. I'm no businessman.

 

Gee, I hope we don't get chided by others for being off-topic for actually having a real

discussion. You know, actually sharing a piece of ourselves, day in and day out. There's

something so very human about that. You know, kind of like how human stories (real

discussions) can take place in a western setting (classic film message board).

 

But, then again, this is a SERIOUS message board where only pretending to discuss

classic movies and posting facts and newsflashes is to be permissable. We must be

"serious." Why does my phony radar go off so much? Why do I feel this way? Did

my robot master program me to actually have my own sense? To smell BS when

I smell it?

 

Maybe I should chide someone for being off topic (thus being off topic myself) and then

say I only wish to talk about the topic. Pathetic. Quite pathetic. But, you know, we all

know. Well, almost all. Watch the movie.

 

Yes, they recognized one another in the end.... because they were simply using

each other in the first place. T.C. wanted her money or ability to get money and the

standing she would bring to The Furies. She wanted his property and the security

of his name in her declining years..... a true business partnership. Ironic, isn't it?

Neither got what they wanted. In failing so badly, each achieved something neither

had before - understanding. But understanding doesn't amount to much at The Furies.

 

"Recognized" is a very good word. And your mention of ironic brought about another feeling

of irony with me. Doesn't T.C. and Flo's business partnership sound awfully familiar? Does

it not sound like Vance and Rip? They "need" each other. They both "need" (read: want)

what the other has. Two kids wanting the other's toy in the sandbox, ONLY because THEY

want it. If you were to hand them the toy without a fight, they wouldn't want it... as much.

That would be Juan. Juan is willing to share and give, Vance wants to own and take. So

does Rip.

 

I loved Judith Anderson in this one, especially knowing her best as Danny in Rebecca.

From the moment she stepped out of the carriage door, her presence was felt. I liked

her worldly, almost silly air as contrasted to Barbara Stanwyck's straight to the point

Vance.

 

At first, I felt this was a different "Judith" but it ended up being very much a "Judith" I have

always liked so very much. She has ulterior motives. She is wearing such a phony face.

You'd think everyone would see through her phoniness, but not everyone can see. T.C.,

the one in charge, can't see it. Hmmmm...

 

Ironically, in The Furies, Stanwyck is "Mrs. Danvers" and Anderson is the "second

Mrs. de Winter."

 

Everything she does is to put Vance at a disadvantage, to remove her from the site. All

done with the pretense of motherly affection. It disgusts me!

 

You have been EXACTLY ON THIS. The word "pretense' is perfect. Flo is attempting to both

fool and stab Vance all at the same time. She is quite devious in manner and actions. Could

it be possible that someone would actually say they only wish to do something yet be

completely looking to do the OPPOSITE? Could this be possible? Are you sure? Don't tell

me people actually do look to fool others. Do you really mean someone would actually have

the nerve to say one thing but mean another? Such disguises are horrible and demeaning.

I'd hate to be played to be a fool. Vance sees right through the phony Flo. She's no fool.

 

I'm with you, it all disgusts me, too. Phoniness disgusts me. It always has and it always will.

 

So that makes me wonder, did T. C. bring Flo there to goad Vance in the first place?

Did he realize Flo was just out to take The Furies? Why was he so blind, always saying

"That's what I like to see, my girls getting along?" Why suddenly did he need a woman

after all these years? Did he know that Flo would just make Vance stronger in the end?

I don't think so. I think he was deluded thinking he could control his women. He could

control everything else, but not women.

 

You make excellent points and you have swayed me... some. I do think T.C. sometimes

underestimates woman, and he does so at his own peril.

 

Why did he invite Flo into his life? I think he saw Flo as a means to an end. She has

connections in Washington and contact with the President. This opens up many more

doors for T.C. Washington and the President are the big-time. T.C. is all about the big-time.

 

You know, I'm not sure if T.C. even thought of how Flo would affect Vance. Honestly.

However, T.C. has been bothered by Vance's recklessness in choosing men, so maybe

he was thinking a "mother" could help keep Vance in line. Again, Flo is being used as a

means to an end. This is how I believe T.C. operates. This also shows the cold and

calcuating side of T.C. Did you catch that, Quiet Gal? I'm definitely aware of T.C.'s

cold and calcuating ways, too.

 

 

[rohanaka]

Did you catch that, Quiet Gal?

 

Oh yes, I did... and.... well...

 

I will answer soon....

 

But for now.... I am still trying to figure out how to escape the "authorities". If some folks can get maligned around here and be accused of making a personal attack (just for calling you what I am SURE was a well deserved name.) well.... I am in big trouble.... (because if you recall... I threatened BLOOD.... ha.) Who KNOWS what sort of heinous crime I will be accused of.) ha.

 

I will be back to rough you up a bit later (and will surely be bringing my rope and my "peacemaker" w/ me.... But I will have to do a bit of fancy ropin' and shootin'.... as I don't want to end up getting strung up MYSELF.... ha.

 

In the meantime... I will be hiding out... in the rocks... With the Herrera's..... ha.

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Good afternoon, Jack -- *Hope you are having a very nice Father's Day. I hope your Juan and T.C. are doing very well.*

 

Thanks! So far, so good.....

 

> I am enjoying the epic quality they have. They go where a lot of films don't. And I like

> the onion like peeling off of deep underlying meanings..... reminds me of why I loved

> acting when I did theatre.

>

> *So you took theatre very seriously. Very cool*.

 

I loved it. But I don't _need_ it anymore.

 

> I wasn't sure if you'd like westerns or not since I do find them to be mostly masculine, for the most part. But you are very right, westerns do end up taking you places where many other films don't or even can't. *I always imagined they were just cowboys and indians, and the thought of that bored me. When I found out they were very human stories in western settings, I was hooked.*

 

I feel the same way... I thought they were all about the hero's aggression and power. Of course, that's true, but I now realize that there can be many shades of grey involved, and that some westerns (The Searchers) actually mean the opposite of what I thought they did.

 

>Oh, yeah, and the MEN. You can thank Tom AND Rance for my long buried interest

> in the first place.

>

> *It always comes back to the men with you, doesn't it? Why am I not surprised? Ford floozy! And since I have called you a name, I must mean it with all my heart.*

 

I would bring you up on charges, if I weren't so flattered....

 

We should get Ford floozy tee shirts made.....

 

> You asked why I get irritated when women aren't listened to.

>

> *And I was blaming someone else. I never knew. Just so you know, I see a lot of my mom in "Vance." My country grandpa was her "T.C." She takes great pride in being told she is just like her father, meaning just as tough.*

 

Interesting. Are you as tough as your mom? I ask that with all due respect.

 

> I'm someone who listens... and pays attention. It's not that difficult if you actually put just a

> little effort into caring. *You're not going to know your child if you spend just ten minutes a day with them.*

 

Some people don't even realize they have a child.....

 

> One of the most charming things about him..... No doubt and self recrimination, or

> very slight anyway.... he is actually what i would like to be.... able to get up and get

> on with it rather than falling into guilt or self pity.

>

> *I hear ya. I'm the same as you with this. But I actually like myself more than T.C. when it comes to placing others before myself. However, I'd be better off in life if I were the opposite. I'm no businessman.*

 

Do you mean you would be better off financially? or in other ways as well?

 

> *Gee, I hope we don't get chided by others for being off-topic for actually having a real discussion. You know, actually sharing a piece of ourselves, day in and day out. There's something so very human about that. You know, kind of like how human stories (real discussions) can take place in a western setting (classic film message board).*

 

Nice!

 

> *But, then again, this is a SERIOUS message board where only pretending to discuss classic movies and posting facts and newsflashes is to be permissable. We must be "serious." Why does my phony radar go off so much? Why do I feel this way? Did my robot master program me to actually have my own sense? To smell BS when I smell it?*

 

I hear The Furies was based on King Lear. Mann was influenced by film noir and often included heavy elements of sadism in his films. He liked to experiment with *Cinemascope*, placing major action on the right and left of the wide screen, sometimes simultaneously. Sound familiar?

 

I found it on Wiki.

 

Notice how I never once actually conversed with you. I simply told you stuff.

 

> *Maybe I should chide someone for being off topic (thus being off topic myself) and then say I only wish to talk about the topic. Pathetic. Quite pathetic. But, you know, we all know. Well, almost all. Watch the movie.*

 

I've seen that movie.... over and over and over.

 

> *"Recognized" is a very good word. And your mention of ironic brought about another feeling of irony with me. Doesn't T.C. and Flo's business partnership sound awfully familiar? Does it not sound like Vance and Rip? They "need" each other. They both "need" (read: want) what the other has. Two kids wanting the other's toy in the sandbox, ONLY because THEY want it. If you were to hand them the toy without a fight, they wouldn't want it... as much. That would be Juan. Juan is willing to share and give, Vance wants to own and take. So does Rip.*

 

That's super! I never noticed the two partnerships!

 

Some people only want what they can take. The thrill is gone if they have to maintain something on their own. They only want to disrupt and steal. Maintenance requires caring about a thing. What do you think would have happened if Flo had got The Furies? Would she have kept it up? I don't know. I think she might have tried for awhile, but maybe lost interest after remodeling the place and gone back to Washington for something more exciting. Luckily, I think Vance did care about The Furies.

 

> *At first, I felt this was a different "Judith" but it ended up being very much a "Judith" I have always liked so very much. She has ulterior motives. She is wearing such a phony face. You'd think everyone would see through her phoniness, but not everyone can see. T.C., the one in charge, can't see it. Hmmmm...*

 

He's got his eyes so full of her money he can't see the phoniness. If she can bring hundreds of investors to the game, he doesn't care _how_ she does it.

 

 

>Everything she does is to put Vance at a disadvantage, to remove her from the site. All

> done with the pretense of motherly affection. It disgusts me!

>

> *You have been EXACTLY ON THIS. The word "pretense' is perfect. Flo is attempting to both fool and stab Vance all at the same time. She is quite devious in manner and actions. Could it be possible that someone would actually say they only wish to do something yet be completely looking to do the OPPOSITE? Could this be possible? Are you sure? Don't tell me people actually do look to fool others. Do you really mean someone would actually have the nerve to say one thing but mean another?*

 

Watch the movie.

 

> *You make excellent points and you have swayed me... some. I do think T.C. sometimes underestimates woman, and he does so at his own peril.*

 

Aha! Victory!

 

>*You know, I'm not sure if T.C. even thought of how Flo would affect Vance.* Honestly. However, T.C. has been bothered by Vance's recklessness in choosing men, so maybe he was thinking a "mother" could help keep Vance in line. Again, Flo is being used as a means to an end. This is how I believe T.C. operates. This also shows the cold and calcuating side of T.C. Did you catch that, Quiet Gal? I'm definitely aware of T.C.' s cold and calcuating ways, too.

 

This is a perfect explanation. Of course. T. C. would never think of his loved ones. I should know that, with my background.

 

>

>

>

 

Hey! You beat me to the punch posting that scene.....now I must stab you with some scissors.....

 

Oops. Post deleted for scissor attack....

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=rohanaka wrote:}{quote}

> In the meantime... I will be hiding out... in the rocks... With the Herrera's..... ha.

 

Just aim your boulders a little better than Blanche Yurka did, Peacemaker.