Western Movie Rambles

[HollywoodGolightly]

*I hear The Furies was based on King Lear.*

 

The Furies is actually based on a novel by Niven Busch. However it's true that some Mann westerns include a character that's a little like King Lear.

[rohanaka]

HELLO Mr. Grey?.

 

A-ha! So I'm not the only one around here who has some problems with veggies.

 

Well, before you go to throwing THAT up in my face?. Let?s compare, *YUCK lists* shall we??

 

*ME: Only a random FEW lonely little veggies*

 

*YOU: The ENTIRE VEGGIE KINGDOM (minus ONE: ThePOTATO) HA!*

 

Come back and talk to me some more after you EAT YOUR VEGGIES, Sawdust Dude.

 

Vance is the kind of person who doesn't like beingpushed around. She is extremely stubborn. She wishes to get back at anyone who goes against her wishes. This most definitely includes her father. But here's the thing, she doesn't like ANYONE ELSE attacking her father. She can do it, but no one else can. I think Vance lets her emotions run her far more than T.C. does.

 

You do have a good point there. She DID stand up both TO him and FOR him (at least BEFORE the big necktie party anyway. Then she more or less had little good to say about him (at least until the end of the movie again)

 

See, I actually think she IS bloodthirsty and cutthroat... we just haven't seen it yet. I think

she's a chip off the ol' block. She's not going to let anyone take the Furies from her. I'm of

the belief she will become more and more like her father, in time.

 

Maybe. But I really have more or less just based most of my ideas about her one what she DID do. So going with just that scenario, I do not see her as a TOTAL cutthroat. (although she DID throw those scissors, ha) I think she had a MUCH more human side to her than her dad. But I realize from reading all this, I am standing out in the cold more or less here. (It?s a good thing it?s summer. I can USE a little cooler temps right now, HA!)

 

That was very well said. I definitely believe Vance's close relationship with Juan made

her care about the squatters. Without that, she wouldn't give a darn about them.

 

I think she would care a lot LESS, but I do think she stilled cared what happened. (again, I am feeling the chill air out here all alone? HA.)

 

 

Still, when push came to shove, she chose the Furies over the squatters. Her sympathy only

went so far. In otherwords, she will choose her father over any.

 

Well she more or less got pushed into it (to satisfy the mortgage guys.) I think if she had had a better option, she?d have taken it. I don?t think (if she had been running things from the beginning) she would have chosen someone like El Tigre as her enforcer to ?clear them out? like her dad did.(again, because I don?t see her as being that sort of ?cutthroat? individual) She did have him carry out the order, but that was because he was the guy her dad had already hired to do that sort of work. Her DAD is the one who hired the services of that sort of bloodthirsty monster guy to handle things. I don?t think she would have if she had been doing the hiring. I think she would have tried to find a different way.

 

I come at this from a different angle. You are right, Juan wasn't interested in being right

with Vance. That wasn't important to him. Her happiness was more important to him. He

was very happy to finish second place to her first place.

 

I think Juan was a ?realist?. He knew that because of her upbringing (as well as his own) she was not the right woman for him and he was not the right man for her. (and I am not necessarily just talking about them coming from different social standings, though that certainly was a part of it) He knew they would not be able to be together, but he loved her, and he stood by her.

 

Rip is the kind of guy who is going to try and win the race. He wants to beat Vance. She likes that kind of challenge.

 

I totally agree that Rip was an ?I want to win it all? kinda guy. And I also agree that he wanted to beat Vance (or at least not let her beat him) at least at the beginning. I think even at the end of it all, he was that way to a degree. But again I have to say, somewhere along the line his motivations for everything CHANGED. He went from only wanting PAYBACK and the Darrow Strip to understanding there was more to life than just getting his revenge. And he also went from wanting to put her in her place to wanting to keep her by his side. (Oh! I am so alone now. There is almost an echo echo echo in here... ha!)

 

Was Juan the kind of man Vance could trample over? I actually don't believe so. I think

Juan is much stronger and SMARTER than you give him credit for being. He chose his

battles with Vance. He knows what is important to stand up for and what isn't. He

understands her; he knows her buttons.

 

I think I see where you are going here. And y ou are right to a degree. Juan was smarter than she was in terms of knowing about what LIFE means and what REAL happiness is. And he understood that a man is NOTHING without integrity (hence the ?I have no stomach for the way you live? line) But I do still think (when it came to ?love? he more or less WOULD have been trampled. She would have left him and moved on because he DIDN?T have the stomach for her way of life. And I think THAT sort of hurt would have been far greater for him than the hurt of just loving her knowing she was not ever REALLY going to be his.

 

 

I don't think Juan was into "making her his." That's not love to him, nor me, for

that matter.

 

I think we are getting caught up in semantics a bit here. Let me see if I can ?splain? myself a bit better.

 

When I say the words ?his? or ?hers? in this context, I don?t mean she becomes his property or that she is ?owed by? him. Rather, what I am saying (likely not well enough) is that when you give someone your heart. It becomes THEIRS. Your affection, your being, your spirit in general all become a gift to that person. And you have made YOURSELF theirs. (as in: I am VERY much the QT?s and he is VERY much mine... because we have given our hearts to one another.) And for me, that IS love.

 

And guess what I'm going to do again? Yep, reference

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

 

HA!!! WHY don?t you just admit it? TMWSLV is one of the GREATEST westerns ever made and TOM and RANSE are among two of the BEST characters in a western... EVER. Ha. (they have to be. Otherwise WHY oh WHY would we spend so much time going back to them again and again... ha)

 

Just like Juan, Doniphon knew what was up. He knew his girl. Both men sacrifice their own lives for the happiness of their only love.

 

They WERE alike in THAT way, I do agree. Though their ultimate decisions, circumstances and motivations were not similar.

 

I agree and disagree with you on some of your points. I do believe Vance was turned on by

Rip's rough manner with her, his being a businessman, and, most importantly, that she

saw her father in him. I think Rip was turned on by Vance's willingness to take it and give

it right back. He liked her moxie. I also believe both liked challenges and each saw the

other as just that. They liked the power struggle. Theirs was a love/hate relationship. They

really are two of a kind.

 

Ok... we can work with this. ha. I think it WAS a love/hate kinda thing.. The FIRST time around. But not the second. I think by the time things ran their FULL course, they had BOTH changed in their motivation and what they wanted.

 

 

But I do agree with you, I think Vance needed a man like Rip more so than Juan. Juan was

merely her oasis on the Furies. He had the power to lift her up when she was down, but

Rip is the kind of guy who would constantly push and motivate Vance.

 

Now THAT I can agree with too. All well said.

 

I'd trust Juan before I'd ever trust a businessman like Rip.

 

I would depend on WHAT I was trusting him for. And again, the RIP at the beginning of the film... I would NOT have trusted HIM further than I can spit (and unless I have a MOUTHFUL of peas... ha, that aint too far.) Whoa... THAT sounded ladylike. Ha.

 

By the end of the film I think Vance had a WHOLE NEW level of trust for Rip. When he pulled that $50 grand out of that safe and handed it to her... that made a HUGE impact on her (AND ME, )

 

Rip's motivation was to get the Darrow Strip back. That was his mission. He was at first

fueled by hate but I do believe that started to subside. Still, his mission remained.

 

His ?mission? changed. It was NOT just about the revenge and the Darrow Strip. It began to include HER. And I think he really was looking for GENUINE happiness. His motivation was different.

 

I think what I'm reacting to more is the charm of T.C.

 

Oh yeah... he was a ?charming? pompous jerk murdering thug. Ha.

 

We see him defeated more than once and he doesn't turn bitter, he just shrugs it off and attempts to think of another way. Every time I see Rip or Vance, I see bitterness.

 

And I saw him USE his bitterness. (as opposed to wallowing in it) He HATED anyone in opposition to him and he resented all the mortgage guys telling him what to do. He REALLY resented getting older and the feeling that all he had was slipping away. His MOST bitter enemy of all was AGE.

 

They are two snakes, looking to strike. They are the ones who are out to ruin.

 

I saw Rip that way at the beginning.. but NOT at the end. And I NEVER really saw HER that way at all. True, she WAS bitter because of Flo and because of what TC had more or less forced her to do, but she wasn?t out to RUIN anything (except maybe THEIR faulty plans. (ok, and maybe TC too for a while there as well) She wanted to KEEP the Furies. And yes, also to take it AWAY from him too) But if SHE had taken it from him, the BANK was about to. So I think she SAVED more than she ruined in the end.

 

The only time we really see a soft side withVance is when she's with Juan. The rest of the time she is on edge. It's as if she's both anticipating and wanting someone to slap her face, not kiss it.

 

Yes, she was MUCH more relaxed with Juan. But as far as her only being "hard "otherwise... OH... for pty's sake... look closer. In that scene with her and Rip out in the evening before the big ?TC takeover, she is very ?vulnerable?. And then the next day when the big moment comes and she is standing there with TC and he is BRAGGING on her (instead of yelling at her) She is VERY ?non-combative" and VERY open to be reconciled with him. A VERY "soft" moment for her.

 

But Vance and Rip still went through with it. Nothing was going to get in their way of

doing it. They may have some remorse for their actions after the fact, but I have

a feeling they wouldn't want to give up what they got.

 

Yes. They DID go ahead with their plan, but I don?t think it was wrong for them to. I think it WOULD have been wrong for them to continue on out of REVENGE. But by that point, that was NOT all there was to it any more.

 

T.C. was very much same. He suredid take delight in teasing and taunting his daughter about Rip showing her up, but he quickly stops laughing and comforts her when he sees how much she is hurt. Still, he GETS WHAT HE WANTS.

 

He was meanspireted in a way that she was not. He was the kinda guy who DID take pleasure in hurting others like that.

 

Just as Vance and Rip do. And that's the bottom line with bottom-liners.

 

THEY were NOT that way. At least not that I could see. Maybe Rip was a little with her back at the begining, and she was too a bit w/ her brother. But overall, I did not see it. (which is one of the reasons why their reaction after "winning" WAS different than it might have been had they NOT begin to understand that it was not all about ?sticking it ? to TC.

 

I do believe Rip is in love with Vance more than she is in love with him. He's rather taken by

her. Do you really believe Vance is going to allow Rip to control her? Do you really believe

anyone is going to come between her and HER Furies? Do you really think Rip can come

close to living up to Vance's view of T.C.?

 

Now see... if they HAD gotten married at the BEGINNING of the story, I would concede to ALL that you are saying. But I think by the end of things... it is a whole NEW ball game.

 

First of all, NO. Even after their change in personality, I don?t thing Vance would allow Rip to control her, but I don?t think that is so much what their marriage would be like anyway. I think they WILL lock horns... but I think it will NOT be done out of a sense of one trying to get the BETTER of the other. I can see her setting him straight as needed, but I think HE will do the same for her from time to time.

 

You want to talk about boats being rocked. The

next power struggle will be their child. It's never ending.

 

Ha! I imagine it WILL be a VERY rowdy home. escpecially when TC Jr shows up.ha. But again I don?t think it will be a "mean spirited" thing. I don't see them trying to do each other in (verbally or otherwise) but I DO see them standing up to one another when they disagree. I bet t hey have some good old fashioned knock down, drag outs..

 

Here is a moment where I DO believe Vance admits her love for Rip:

 

I think that was a first for her to finally find a man who would NOT let her get away with just ANYTHING (which goes back to what I was just trying to say) He won't OWN her, but she will be ALLOWING him to have sway over her from time to time... because she loves him.

 

 

But I think Rip's words of "And I don't think I'll stop aching till I have a son who'll own the

whole Furies" ARE boastful. He's not stopping at the Darrow Strip. He had to shove T.C.'s

+face in the mud even more by telling him he's taking it ALL from him. Rip is not content with

getting back the Darrow Strip. Not at all. He wants to rip the heart out of T.C+

 

And see... I did not get that at all. What I got was... this was his ?official MARRIAGE PROPOSAL? to Vance.

 

Because before he said THAT line all he had been saying up to this point was ?indefinite? stuff like ?IF we marry,? etc. I took this to be his OFFICIAL ?Vance and I are getting married,? statement. (and NOT in a ?face in the mud kinda way so much as a ?I?m here to stay, so get used to it? kinda way.)

 

I saw it as Vance and Rip winning a battle, but not a war. T.C. is the kind of guy who admits defeat... at first. But he moves on to the next day, and the next day will be all about getting back HIS Furies

 

Ha. I thought of TC pulling a stunt like that maybe later on as well. I could definitely see him trying to get away with SOMETHING.

 

He's not bitter like Vance and Rip, but he's definitely proud and driven

 

HA!! Now if you took that statement and TURNED IT AROUND, I would agree with it. He may not have been ALL that bitter, but by THIS point in the story, I saw NO bitterness in Vance and RIP whatsoever (but they WERE ?proud and driven?.)

 

He DOESN'T want Rip's hands on his Furies, though. No way.

 

WRONG-O my Grey Friend. He was NOT talking to HER (when he said ?don?t name my Grandson after me) He was talking to RIP. And he said it in a VERY accepting, ?I?m gonna be a Grandpa? kinda way. He had made peace with the idea of Rip as his son in law.

 

And NO, if he had lived, I don?t think they would have been ?Best Buds? or anything. But I think by THIS point they were NOT mortal enemies any longer either.

 

Not yet. But you give it some time and Rip will come to hate T.C. because he will not be his

own man with Vance. T.C. will still haunt him. Vance will make sure of this. "You're no

T.C.!"

 

Nope. Not buying it. He will NOT be the type to let Vance ?run? him. (but Yes, during an ?impetuous? angry moment Vance might spout that out at him to hurt him. Like you said, they do need a little drama now and then. It would have been interesting to see how he and TC would have avoided killing each other in the future. ha. I am sure there would have been some major disagreements. But again, I think the way it ended, (for me at least) I saw the hate gone out of Rip and Vance, and I saw the ?bitterness? replaced with better motivations for the things they were doing.

 

I know everybody else is seeing it different.... I just took it all this way (for whatever reason) and OH.. I am just feeling so lonely here in my little boat... ha. But wouldn?t life be EVER SO BORING if all we did was say ?Oh, I agree?... ha.

 

 

By the way, I just love this kind of discussion. Your comments have pushed me to think

much deeper about The Furies. I love it. Thank you.

 

NO. Thank YOU... And my other ?rambler? friends. :-)

 

And I think that's the great value of "Rambles." It's not about saying "I like so-and-so actor or director or music" and leaving it at that. It's about digging deeper into the story. I find deep discussion to be far morerewarding than surface discussion. I find it to be far more revealing of others and ourselves.

 

Well, I had heard there WERE no ?deep discussions? on here anymore. Perish the thought. :-)

 

Although I WILL say that at times, in among all our deep discussions, there is OTHER deep stuff too... ha. But that is what HIP WADERS are for...ha.

 

I have really enjoyed this ramble Grey Guy (and everybody) It has been a FURIOUSLY good time. Thanks everybody. :-)

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[HollywoodGolightly]

I'm not sure that T.C. really was being mean-spirited when he offered the money to Rip Darrow if he didn't marry Vance. Sure, it's one way of reading his actions, and I totally respect anyone who thinks that was the reason or one of his reasons for doing so. But to me personally it was just another way to "protect" his daughter from someone who might not have been totally sincere to her, or at least he didn't think he'd been sincere about his feelings for her (he may have been partially right in that). T.C. knew that Vance just wouldn't listen to him in this regard no matter how many times he tried to warn her, so he did the only thing he could do to prove to Vance that (at that point in time at least) Rip Darrow didn't really want to marry her all that much. It may have been cruel, but he felt that he needed to open her eyes, and there wasn't a more gentle way to do so; so even though she'd be hurt in the short run, she would come out stronger in the long run, and he may have been right in that regard.

[MissGoddess]

Quite a ramble you two. I know I'll have much to think about the next time I watch

The Furies. I love it when people can see such different qualities in a film, it makes

it much more interesting (and gives you extra reason to watch it again!)

[JackFavell]

I am glad that there is this much debate and parley. It is so cool to see differing aspects in the same movie, and how people see things differently. I am just gonna start calling you two "Vance and Rip".....

[movieman1957]

OK here goes -

 

Welcome to the most dysfunctional family in the west. Everybody wants to get something, be something, keep something or ruin something for someone else. Who cares whether they are friends or family. If they are in the way.....

 

Right away I get the sense that Vance is nothing but trouble. She is in "her" room and in "her" dress. (I get the feeling that the mother may have been the one who wasn't like anyone else.) I felt like it was a chance to show up her father. Then when he shows up there is the back and forth about the pearls. She is highly insulted that he would bring her pearls. TC knows it because he did bring her a real one. However, TC feels they are good enough for his future daughter-in-law. How insulting.

 

The son proved to be the smart one by getting married and getting out. That left TC and Vance to try and outdo each other. I think she wants Rip just because TC hates him. Then when she gets suckered, well, it's a different world then. No con artist likes being played a fool. She was played big time. (By the way, I'm not sure I'll ever get movie love. Where else can you slap a woman, shove her face in a bowl of water and a minute later kiss her.)

 

My favorite part of Vance's scenes is when Judith Anderson shows up. Vance is being replaced and she doesn't like it one bit. When she comes down the stairs she is invited into her own living room. Then she is told that there will always be room for her at the ranch. Well, I should hope so it is her place. She is an unworthy substitute for "her" but she will have to do.

 

Ah, the bitterness, the backstabbing, the all consuming arrogance to come out on top. The Herreras pay for it, TC pays for it and to some degree so does everyone else.

 

There can't be any happiness. These aren't happy people. They won't have enough land to satisfy them. They won't have enough money to satisfy them.

 

There is more ground to cover but it is a well done film. Maybe it is a tad long but great work by Huston, Stanwyck and a nasty Wendell Corey with solid direction and a good musical score make this one to see.

[HollywoodGolightly]

Awesome write-up, Chris!

 

Personally I didn't find it to be all that long (I think it's about 110 minutes) but one could argue that by trying to combine two very different kinds of movies in one, Mann might have made it feel longer than a straight-up western. But I enjoyed every minute of it!

[JackFavell]

Woo-hoo, Chris!

 

I loved your comment about the mom being the one who didn't fit in. She is intriguing, isn't she? I think she was different, an easterner maybe, a lady, maybe not strong like T.C. and Vance, but enough of a presence to keep things from veering off into the one-upsmanship we see at the start of the movie. I think she wouldn't have stood for some of the shenanigans of T.C. or Vance. I think one look from disapproving mom would have shut down the two of them a bit. She didn't have to raise her voice, and I think she was the conscience of the family. She held it all together, quietly, and when she died they spun off the center axis into another world of getting exactly what they wanted. Vance became the lady of the house, and she LIKED it, the power of it, but she wanted to spend her days riding and ranching, not being a little hostess. Little T.C...... And T.C.saw her as a chip off the old block, raising her as the son he never had.... well, the one he wished he had - T.C. and Vance against the world.

 

I still like Vance. I like her rough and tumble ways, and her toughness. There are all kinds in the world, and wouldn't it be a shame if she had been stuffed into the role of pretty, dainty hostess, never allowed to do what she really loved? She might actually have run off with Juan or Rip at the beginning if that had happened, and oh, what a disaster that would have been! Through the course of the movie, and finally achieving her goals, she comes to realize that winning isn't as satisfactory as she had thought it would be. She changes, but her basic personality will always be that of a strong woman in a man's world, and that's alright.

 

Message was edited by: JackFavell

[movieman1957]

I agree about the mother. Her aura in the movie reminds me of "Unforgiven" where Eastwood's William Muny was reformed by his wife but after she died and he became desperate he reverted. I think what you said is true. The Jeffords reverted after the Mrs. Jeffords died.

 

I think Vance was a strong woman but she allowed that strength to get away from her and used it in a bad way. She never would have made the hostess role but she could have run that ranch and done it honestly. She tried to be fair with the Herreras. She had a heart. She didn't use it enough.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I think Vance was a strong woman but she allowed that strength to get away from her and used it in a bad way. She never would have made the hostess role but she could have run that ranch and done it honestly. She tried to be fair with the Herreras. She had a heart. She didn't use it enough.

 

I think it was her heart that got her in trouble in the first place. She truly cared for her father, and she couldn't bear the idea of Flo taking advantage of him (although obviously she didn't care for Flo trying to push her aside, either). After Vance did what she did to Flo, it was perhaps too tempting for T.C. to find some way to get back at his own daughter, and of course doing so would eventually be his undoing.

[JackFavell]

it was perhaps too tempting for T.C. to find some way to get back at his own daughter, and of course doing so would eventually be his undoing.

 

What do you mean?

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> it was perhaps too tempting for T.C. to find some way to get back at his own daughter, and of course doing so would eventually be his undoing.

>

> What do you mean?

 

I was referring to what T.C. did to Juan Herrera. I've a hard time believing he'd have been as harsh, if not for Vance having attacked Flo physically the way she did. That's Vance's primary motivation for wresting control of The Furies away from him. And then by the end of the movie, when it seems like T.C. could perhaps have gone on living happily even after Vance married Rip Darrow, Mama Herrera gets her revenge.

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I agree about the mother. Her aura in the movie reminds me of "Unforgiven" where Eastwood's William Muny was reformed by his wife but after she died and he became desperate he reverted. I think what you said is true. The Jeffords reverted after the Mrs. Jeffords died.

 

That's a good comparison. Like Vance, He was another who just spun out of control with hate and nothing to stop him........I haven't seen Unforgiven since it came out on video, but maybe I should go back to it and look again. I really didn't like it much at the time, but now I might find it more interesting.

 

> I think Vance was a strong woman but she allowed that strength to get away from her and used it in a bad way. She never would have made the hostess role but she could have run that ranch and done it honestly. She tried to be fair with the Herreras. She had a heart. She didn't use it enough.

 

You are right, again, but I think her upbringing was one of looseness, no control, and so she didn't have the control within herself to deal with being usurped by Flo, or Juan's death. She has to learn self control through life experience, rather than through a parental figure.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> You are right, again, but I think her upbringing was one of looseness, no control, and so she didn't have the control within herself to deal with being usurped by Flo, or Juan's death. She has to learn self control through life experience, rather than through a parental figure.

 

Is that a nice way of saying Vance was a bit of a spoiled brat?

[movieman1957]

I thought she was a spoiled brat from the start. She is a woman used to having her way. She doesn't care if her father is the one to get hurt as long as she can have what she wants.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I thought she was a spoiled brat from the start. She is a woman used to having her way. She doesn't care if her father is the one to get hurt as long as she can have what she wants.

 

Yes, and yet, I think there is a big change in her after she saw JH hanged.

 

I think at the start of the movie, she didn't care if her father's feelings got hurt - by her marrying someone he didn't approve of, or by her standing up for the Herreras. But she probably wouldn't have wanted to take The Furies away from him before he was ready to pass it on to her.

 

But after she saw what he did to Juan Herrera, she wasn't going to hold back, the way she saw it, he'd drawn first blood, and after that point her attitude seems to be that anything goes - including an unfriendly takeover of The Furies, even knowing it might devastate her father.

[MissGoddess]

Furious SPOILAGE ahead...

 

 

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I thought she was a spoiled brat from the start. She is a woman used to having her way. She doesn't care if her father is the one to get hurt as long as she can have what she wants.

 

I think Vance's reaction to the death of Juan is interesting. She is upset, but mixed with

her pain at Juan's tragic death seems to be the pain of being so utterly routed by her father.

Pride and pain mixed. She never really seems to "mourn". It doesn't teach her what a horrid

waste all this power grabbing and conflict is---it merely steels her to become even more

grasping than ever and of course, vengeful. But I don't see any trace of Juan in her afteward,

it's like he really died completely. I would like to have seen something remain of his presence

or influence on her, some remembrance or sadness, but no, once he's dispatched he's

obliterated from her life and the movie. That's shows how steely she was, I think. Or

maybe it's a flaw in the movie.

 

P.S. This longing on my part for "remembrance" goes to show how trained I've become

by the "Fordian" perspective. Ford would not have let Juan "die" so completely, if you

understand. I'm not trying to compare him to Mann unfavorably, I'm just saying that I

do feel it shows how callous Vance was that she should never refer to him again in the

course of the story.

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

[JackFavell]

Yes, I see that exactly, Miss G! She seemed more upset by her father's affair with Flo than by Juan's death... it was more like it was done TO HER rather than seeing that he hurt Juan or his family. And maybe that is true, but she seemed angry, not mournful. Even if she had had a moment of quiet solitude at the rocks, we would have felt more comfortable with her as a heroine.

[movieman1957]

I think Vance personalized everything. So much of what played out was a power grab from either of them. She knew Juan was going to be hanged whether she begged or not so she wasn't going to stoop to begging no matter how she felt about the situation. TC wins if she does.

 

Whether TC meant Flo as a replacement I'm not sure but I doubt it. Maybe TC was just tired of being lonely. Vance, I think, very much thought she was being replaced. Many things Flo said reminded her of that.

[JackFavell]

I don't think T.C. meant Flo as a replacement for Vance at all. But I think Flo definitely thought that Vance was in her way, or would cause her trouble, so she wanted her out of the way as soon as possible. She immediatly set about sending VAnce on a world tour..... a lame way to get her out of the way. Any other girl would have jumped at the chance, but not savvy Vance. Vance saw that there was no fighting Flo, and was cornered into attacking.... what is it they say? Violence is the refuge of the powerless? When Vance feels powerless to stop Flo she reacts in rage. The weird thing is, it actually works out in her favor. I was also surprised that VAnce didn't have to pay the final penalty at the end of the movie......

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> Yes, I see that exactly, Miss G! She seemed more upset by her father's affair with Flo than by Juan's death... it was more like it was done TO HER rather than seeing that he hurt Juan or his family. And maybe that is true, but she seemed angry, not mournful. Even if she had had a moment of quiet solitude at the rocks, we would have felt more comfortable with her as a heroine.

 

Interesting point...

 

(SPOILERS)

 

My initial reaction is that Vance may have actually cared a lot more about what T.C. to Juan. She was very mad at Flo for trying to "steal" her father and take her place at The Furies, but after the incident with the scissors, she seemed not to care that much anymore. But after what happened to Juan, she spent months working on her "revenge" and even had to go plead her case to Darrow, which must have felt awfully humiliating to her after the way he'd treated her.

 

The expectation of a moment of "quiet solitude" seems a bit of a double standard, because I don't think male characters are usually expected to have such a moment (although sometimes they do). Perhaps April is right, such a moment might be more likely to occur in a Ford movie, in which the dead are seldom forgotten.

[JackFavell]

Most people, men or women would experience a moment of loss.

 

And yet, I can still empathize with Vance on her quest for revenge - she had something taken from her that was very dear to her...... whether that was Juan, or The Furies, or her father's love, or a combination of all three, I don't know. But her methods were extremely methodical in her attempt to eradicate the cause of her pain..... And I can truly relate to her anger and her willingness to do anything to get even. It may not be nice, but it's very human to strike at the thing that is paining you. Vance was strong enough to try to completely eradicate the thing that was biting her. I could see myself doing the same thing.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> Most people, men or women would experience a moment of loss.

 

I think you're absolutely right - but men are generally conditioned not to show it, they're told (usually) from an early age that "boys don't cry" and stuff like that. And I think in most Westerns, the male leads are expected to do, not to feel. (Except maybe with Ford westerns).

 

> And yet, I can still empathize with Vance on her quest for revenge - she had something taken from her that was very dear to her...... whether that was Juan, or The Furies, or her father's love, or a combination of all three, I don't know. But her methods were extremely methodical in her attempt to eradicate the cause of her pain..... And I can truly relate to her anger and her willingness to do anything to get even. It may not be nice, but it's very human to strike at the thing that is paining you. Vance was strong enough to try to completely eradicate the thing that was biting her. I could see myself doing the same thing.

 

Well, in her case, she'd been taught from a very early age to stand up to anyone, to not let anyone get the better of her. And T.C. taught her well. Yet even at the very end, once she feels she's taught her father a lesson, she seems very much willing to let bygones be bygones, to carry on more or less as before, even though she's going to be married and T.C.'s speaking of going off to that Catalina Island. At least that is the impression I got.

 

 

From the way she was smiling at him, I'd say she was more or less willing to "forgive and forget". Of course, Mama Herrera was going to make sure Juan's death was not forgotten...

[JackFavell]

Yes, she forgave him. She was willing to let bygones be bygones. He was her father..... I wonder, do you think she forgave Flo for coming between her and her father, and for trying to take The Furies?

 

I think not. Because Flo was not family. She was small potatoes.... just a means to an end. She didn't count in any way at all to Vance or to T.C. except as a savior or more to the point, a _threat_ to the ranch. The scissors did their job.....they destroyed her. She was just a vain old woman who'd played out all her cards. And her time was up.

 

Sometimes, you just need a good, sharp pair of scissors.....

[HollywoodGolightly]

I think you're right, Wendy. I don't think she'd ever have forgiven Flo. And after having been disfigured the way she was, I don't think Flo wanted to have anything to do with Vance, either.

 

Just kinda makes you glad that there's safety scissors these days...