Western Movie Rambles

[JackFavell]

I prefer the sharp kind. They get the job done.

[HollywoodGolightly]

It depends on what the job is... to cut paper, safety scissors do the job just fine. Of course, Vance didn't have any kind of scissors but the pointy kind. And that was just too bad for poor Flo...

[JackFavell]

When cutting out a canker, you need the real thing.

[HollywoodGolightly]

Ah, I see... so you think Flo was like a canker in The Furies?

[FrankGrimes]

It's great to see you on the trail, Cowboy Chris -- I really like what you have written about The Furies thus far. I pretty much agree with all of what you said.

 

Right away I get the sense that Vance is nothing but trouble. She is in "her" room and in "her" dress. (I get the feeling that the mother may have been the one who wasn't like anyone else.) I felt like it was a chance to show up her father. Then when he shows up there is the back and forth about the pearls. She is highly insulted that he would bring her pearls. TC knows it because he did bring her a real one. However, TC feels they are good enough for his future daughter-in-law. How insulting.

 

You are correct, we are being told it's going to be a father-daughter story right from the

start. Who is to control who?

 

I think she wants Rip just because TC hates him.

 

I believe there is a lot of truth to that. She liked that Rip was unafraid to stand up to

her father, too.

 

Then when she gets suckered, well, it's a different world then. No con artist likes

being played a fool. She was played big time.

 

Definitely. She really exposed herself with Rip and she paid the price. I'm not sure she'll ever

allow herself to be exposed like that again. As she tells Juan, love isn't for her. It makes her

feel weak, OUT OF CONTROL. And it's all about control with her.

 

(By the way, I'm not sure I'll ever get movie love. Where else can you slap a woman,

shove her face in a bowl of water and a minute later kiss her.)

 

Ummmm, ain't that how's it done? Uh-oh.

 

My favorite part of Vance's scenes is when Judith Anderson shows up. Vance is being

replaced and she doesn't like it one bit. When she comes down the stairs she is invited

into her own living room. Then she is told that there will always be room for her at the

ranch. Well, I should hope so it is her place. She is an unworthy substitute for "her" but

she will have to do.

 

Vance is terrified at her losing power, especially with T.C. T.C. tells her she's to use

and boss the Furies with him and then it's hers after he's gone. That's his promise. But

that's not good enough for Vance. She must be in control at all times. She's to be the woman

in T.C.'s life.

 

Ah, the bitterness, the backstabbing, the all consuming arrogance to come out on

top. The Herreras pay for it, TC pays for it and to some degree so does everyone else.

 

For me, it's about power and control. T.C., Vance, and Rip are all about this. They each tell

others how it's going to be. They are to set the rules, no one else. Very self-centered.

 

There can't be any happiness. These aren't happy people. They won't have enough

land to satisfy them. They won't have enough money to satisfy them.

 

That's how I feel, as well. Love and happiness are determined by their conquests.

 

I think Vance personalized everything.

 

That's a terrific point. All is to revolve around her.

 

Whether TC meant Flo as a replacement I'm not sure but I doubt it. Maybe TC was

just tired of being lonely. Vance, I think, very much thought she was being

replaced. Many things Flo said reminded her of that.

 

This is how I feel, too. I think T.C. liked the new kind of power Flo provided for him. I don't

think he was looking to stick it to Vance.

 

I thought she was a spoiled brat from the start. She is a woman used to having

her way. She doesn't care if her father is the one to get hurt as long as she can

have what she wants.

 

This is mostly true, but I do believe she truly loved her father and rather not hurt him. Her

actions to hurt T.C. are mostly emotional responses to her not getting what she wants. She

really doesn't wish to hurt T.C. In fact, I believe it tears her up inside to do so. Relationships

with her are abusive, for this reason. She's going to smack you and then possibly feel bad

about it. Still, she's going to smack you.

 

I think Vance was a strong woman but she allowed that strength to get away from her

and used it in a bad way. She never would have made the hostess role but she could

have run that ranch and done it honestly. She tried to be fair with the Herreras. She

had a heart. She didn't use it enough.

 

I think Vance has some heart, but not as much as maybe others here may believe. It's one

thing to care about things you have a personal stake in but another if you have no stake in it

at all. Vance doesn't give a damn about the other squatters. They are faceless to her. They

mean nothing to her. She cares about the Herreras ONLY because of Juan. And why does

she care about Juan? Is it because he is someone important to her or is it because he is

something important to her? And I do believe there is a difference. This leads me to

Miss G's comments...

 

Howdy, Fordy Guns -- I think Vance's reaction to the death of Juan is

interesting. She is upset, but mixed with her pain at Juan's tragic death seems to be

the pain of being so utterly routed by her father. Pride and pain mixed. She never

really seems to "mourn". It doesn't teach her what a horrid waste all this power

grabbing and conflict is---it merely steels her to become even more grasping than

ever and of course, vengeful. But I don't see any trace of Juan in her afteward, it's like

he really died completely. I would like to have seen something remain of his presence

or influence on her, some remembrance or sadness, but no, once he's dispatched he's

obliterated from her life and the movie. That's shows how steely she was, I think. Or

maybe it's a flaw in the movie.

 

What a wonderful, brilliant point. Who are you?!

 

You are so very right, Vance never really mourns for Juan. His death merely sets her off

on her quest to wreck her father. She is driven by revenge. She is not avenging Juan's

death, she is looking for revenge against T.C.'s taking something away from her. Again, it all

comes down to power and control between father and daughter.

 

This longing on my part for "remembrance" goes to show how trained I've become

by the "Fordian" perspective. Ford would not have let Juan "die" so completely, if you

understand. I'm not trying to compare him to Mann unfavorably, I'm just saying that I

do feel it shows how callous Vance was that she should never refer to him again in the

course of the story.

 

I believe you have it right, it's about the character, Vance, more than anything else. She

is out for self. She is not going to let you take anything away from her. She's a taker, not

a giver. Juan is the other way. Heck, even T.C. is far more of a giver than her, hence my

liking him more.

[MissGoddess]

What can I say? I have to agree with everything you said---again!

 

Yes, lets get back to how wrong you are about Ransom Stoddard.

 

P.S. I'm thinking now of Vance's character in the context of other, similar

characters in Anthony Mann's movies. I'm thinking of Ruth Roman in

The Far Country in particular. Same thing there---power and control.

[rohanaka]

Hello there Mr. Movieman...

 

Very nice take on the most dysfunctional family in the west

 

Ha... I love that... It could be the title of some sort of new "reality tv show".... ha.

 

And I really like your take on "her"... as the one who kept the family in line... at least while she was alive...

 

I think she wants Rip just because TC hates him.

 

I think it started out that way... but somewhere along the line... she really fell for him. And (especially at the beginning of the movie) I think they BOTH had a lot of "issues" to work out... but in the end.... I think what they felt was genuine.

 

a nasty Wendell Corey

 

OH! Say it aint so!!! (alas.... I am all alone. Picture me... breaking into a chorus of "Oh Solo Mio" right about now... ha. )

 

She had a heart. She didn't use it enough

 

Hmm... Wait a sec, now... there may be hope for you yet... ha.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=rohanaka wrote:}{quote}

> a nasty Wendell Corey

>

> OH! Say it aint so!!! (alas.... I am all alone. Picture me... breaking into a chorus of "Oh Solo Mio" right about now... ha. )

>

 

Guess there may be more than one Wendell Corey fan around these parts, after all...

[MissGoddess]

OH! Say it aint so!!! (alas.... I am all alone. Picture me... breaking into a chorus of "Oh Solo Mio" right about now... ha. )

 

Don't feel bad, Ro, I'm all alone in my views about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, so

I know the feeling. We're on two mountaintops, let's wave at each other!

[rohanaka]

This longing on my part for "remembrance" goes to show how trained I've become

by the "Fordian" perspective. Ford would not have let Juan "die" so completely, if you

understand. I'm not trying to compare him to Mann unfavorably, I'm just saying that I

do feel it shows how callous Vance was that she should never refer to him again in the

course of the story.

 

THAT is a great way to say it, little lady. I do agree both about Ford and also that it WOULD have been good evne just to see a bit of "Juan's influence" bubble up in her somewhere along the way after he died... more or less as a way for her to honor his sacrifice, if nothing else...

 

PS... Mr Grimes:

 

Heck, even T.C. is far more of a giver than her, hence my liking him more.

 

TC.... a "giver"???????? (even "MORE" of a giver than she was?) She was willing to give him back a share of the whole thing.... after she took it away from him. Heck... Even your *so-called* spiteful, hateful, sefl-serving, viscous (oh wait... Movieman even called him "nasty) and "BITTER" RIP was willing to do that. ha...

 

TC would NEVER have done that for THEM!!!

 

Ha... were we even watching the SAME movie??????????????

 

Oh... my little boat... you did not KNOW I had cannons installed on it, did you???? HA!!!!!!!

[rohanaka]

We're on two mountaintops, let's wave at each other

 

Ha... I like it!! :-) We can send SMOKE SIGNALS.. too.. ha. (as long as no Indians show up and want to buy rifles....ha. (Oh wait... wrong movie..)

[JackFavell]

 

Helloooooo! Katheeee............!

[MissGoddess]

If we're going to be on mountaintops, it's nice to know they are in Monument Valley.

[JackFavell]

Nothing but the best for you two.....

[HollywoodGolightly]

I like the idea of the smoke signals in Monument Valley. Now, how about we also pass the pipe of peace?

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy Quiet Gal -- You are going to get yours later tonight.

 

TC.... a "giver"????????

 

Yes!

 

(even "MORE" of a giver than she was?)

 

Yes!

 

She was willing to give him back a share of the whole thing.... after she took it away

from him. Heck... Even your so-called spiteful, hateful, sefl-serving, viscous

(oh wait... Movieman even called him "nasty) and "BITTER" RIP was willing to do that. ha.

 

They didn't offer him any such deal! And he has too much pride to take such a deal, anyways.

 

TC would NEVER have done that for THEM!!!

 

He was ready to celebrate, his treat, with his daughter and her man after being swindled by

them! Do you think Vance or good ol' Rip would have done such a thing? No way!

 

T.C. bought Vance the necklace she wished to have. He gave her power and sway

at the Furies, treating her as almost an equal. He promised her the Furies after he was gone.

He even said this with the thought of Flo being his wife. AND, he never ran the Herreras or

the other squatters off his land despite the insistence of the bank to do so... until Vance

cruelly wronged him.

 

T.C. was ALWAYS giving to his daughter and she was ALWAYS taking. Ohhh, I'll get to

the giving Vance and Rip later this night.

 

Ha... were we even watching the SAME movie??????????????

 

[FrankGrimes]

Don't feel bad, Ro, I'm all alone in my views about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance,

so I know the feeling.

 

Yes, and rightly so. You're wrongheaded! Is that a personal attack?

 

What can I say? I have to agree with everything you said---again!

 

So you agree! You are wrongheaded.

 

Yes, lets get back to how wrong you are about Ransom Stoddard.

 

Me, wrong? That's unpossible!

 

I'm thinking now of Vance's character in the context of other, similar

characters in Anthony Mann's movies. I'm thinking of Ruth Roman in

The Far Country in particular. Same thing there---power and control.

 

Ronda Castle (Ruth Roman in The Far Country) reminds me more of Helen Ramirez

(Katy Jurado in High Noon). Vance is harsh!

[HollywoodGolightly]

I have to say that I agree with Scott regarding T.C. being ready to celebrate, and treat his daughter and Rip, after what they'd done to him. But at least part of that probably has a lot to do with the fact that, even after all that drama, Vance was still T.C.'s favorite kid, the one he had always loved most. In the end, Vance and T.C. seemed ready to forgive each other, and forget Juan and Flo, respectively, even though both relationships ended in very painful ways. Blood was still thicker.

 

Also, in the case of T.C., I always have felt that older folks may be generally a bit more forgiving than their younger counterparts. But that's just a hunch.

[MissGoddess]

>

> Yes, and rightly so. You're wrongheaded! Is that a personal attack?

>

 

Yes, it is! Don't worry I'm sure you've been reported.

 

>

> So you agree! You are wrongheaded.

>

 

That's your department.

 

 

>

> Me, wrong? That's unpossible!

>

 

Ha!

 

>

> Ronda Castle (Ruth Roman in The Far Country) reminds me more of Helen Ramirez

> (Katy Jurado in High Noon). Vance is harsh!

 

Now I don't think Helen was interested in controlling Will Kane, whereas Ronda was

looking to make Jeff do everything her way. However, I do agree she was not harsh

like Vance, she used her sex appeal more. I can see T.C. liking her.

[FrankGrimes]

Yes, it is! Don't worry I'm sure you've been reported.

 

More detention for me.

 

So you agree! You are wrongheaded.

 

That's your department.

 

 

Now I don't think Helen was interested in controlling Will Kane, whereas Ronda was

looking to make Jeff do everything her way. However, I do agree she was not harsh

like Vance, she used her sex appeal more. I can see T.C. liking her.

 

T.C. would definitely like a gal like Ronda, but she's small potatoes. Helen is a

strongminded, INDEPENDENT businesswoman. Don't you push me to a High Noon

discussion!

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Yes, it is! Don't worry I'm sure you've been reported.

>

> More detention for me.

>

 

I'm sure they have given you a reserved seat by now!

 

>

> T.C. would definitely like a gal like Ronda, but she's small potatoes. Helen is a

> strongminded, INDEPENDENT businesswoman. Don't you push me to a High Noon

> discussion!

 

I can't believe you think Helen is that hard. I see her as a survivor and yes, a smart

businesswoman but because she has no choice, not because she's ambitious. I don't

know what happened with them, or with Frank Miller so maybe i'm missing something,

but I take it that she would have preferred to be Will Kane's wife than an "independent

businesswoman"---all alone. Maybe it's just that Katy brings so much passionate emotion

to her character so you believe the emotional will always outweigh the practical with her---

which is in complete contrast to Vance, who is primarily motivated by ambition, pride,

and other egotistical emotions.

[FrankGrimes]

I can't believe you think Helen is that hard. I see her as a survivor and yes, a smart

businesswoman but because she has no choice, not because she's ambitious. I don't

know what happened with them, or with Frank Miller so maybe i'm missing something,

but I take it that she would have preferred to be Will Kane's wife than an "independent

businesswoman"---all alone. Maybe it's just that Katy brings so much passionate emotion

to her character so you believe the emotional will always outweigh the practical with her---

which is in complete contrast to Vance, who is primarily motivated by ambition, pride,

and other egotistical emotions.

 

I better save my Helen remarks for a High Noon write-up. But, you are right, she's

not as ambitious as Ronda. Still, I see more Helen with Ronda than Vance. Maybe

because I don't view Ronda as seeking power. She's more about business than power.

[movieman1957]

Sir Francis:

 

Thank you for your comments. You make an interesting comment about Juan being "Something" for Vance as opposed to someone. I think that Juan was the one honest thing in her life. Juan may have loved her but he was also not afraid to tell her the truth. He was also not afraid to listen to her. He was the one thing that brought out the "heart" in her.

 

One thing I found out was that the bit about shoving her head in the water was an autobiographical thing from Mann. The Criterion DVD has an interview with Mann's daughter Nina and she related a story of how Mann grew up in a kind of commune. He had a terrible school master who would pick up Mann by the feet and dunk his head in water.

 

Kathy:

 

I agree with you about Vance falling for Rip later. Lord knows why. He stiffed on coming to the house, at least as far as she was concerned. Then pulled $50k out from under her. He abused her, though only the one time.

 

Wendell Corey is a tough guy. This is his most formidable role (how is that for a description?) I've seen him in several movies and I don't remember him being quite this way in anything else.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> One thing I found out was that the bit about shoving her head in the water was an autobiographical thing from Mann. The Criterion DVD has an interview with Mann's daughter Nina and she related a story of how Mann grew up in a kind of commune. He had a terrible school master who would pick up Mann by the feet and dunk his head in water.

 

Thanks for mentioning that, Chris. I haven't had time to go through all the supplements on the DVD just yet. I hope I'll have time to listen to the whole audio commentary, too.

 

Just watched Raoul Walsh's The Tall Men but figure I might as well start another thread for that one, since it's not a very popular movie.

[MissGoddess]

>

> I better save my Helen remarks for a High Noon write-up. But, you are right, she's

> not as ambitious as Ronda. Still, I see more Helen with Ronda than Vance. Maybe

> because I don't view Ronda as seeking power. She's more about business than power.

 

Your High Noon write up. Is that in the same place where all the socks disappear in the dryer? Or is it in Oz or some other mythical place?

 

And Ronda IS about power---she likes to be boss, to control Jeff and she wants to push all the other business out. I think she's extremely egotistical---attractive---but egotistical. And I do like her, especially when she does what she does at the end of the movie. Do you think Vance would do that for Rip?