Western Movie Rambles

[rohanaka]

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been in QUARANTINE all the ding dang afternoon and part of the evening too.... (ha... After all that talk about me feeling SO alone.... Life imitating Ramble???) Ha. I kept trying every so often... but up until just now... pretty much every time I would try to reply.... I kept hitting the "yellow wall" ha. (BAH! Stupid message board bug!)

 

If we're going to be on mountaintops, it's nice to know they are in Monument Valley

 

YES!!! The VIEW is terrific from up here... THANKS Ms. Favell... but I am going to have to have a DEEP FREEZE installed.... you know... for my ROPE Collection....

 

PS... Chris...

I agree with you about Vance falling for Rip later. Lord knows why. He stiffed on coming to the house, at least as far as she was concerned. Then pulled $50k out from under her. He abused her, though only the one time.

 

See... now, I agree with you that SHE likely felt like he "stiffed" her... about coming to the house.... and about the 50grand... But I don't think he did. (NOW) I still think he was a character who was NOT what he seemed to be on the surface... but I mean that in a GOOD way.

 

After all... he kept warning her NOT to try and tell him what to do but still SHE kept trying to lead him around by the nose.

 

YES... he was arrogant... and even rude. He was not one to "pamper" her or try to spare her feelings. And the money issue... well.... that DID seem pretty awful at the time. But I think that all this stuff served to show that he reallly WAS his own man and that he was not one to be "pushed around" (or even bought off.... and YES... I know thatt seems like a contradiction until you consider what he DID with the money)

 

And as far as abuse goes, I am sure a case COULD be made for that.. especially in a modern day COURT of law, But... well.. SOMETIMES a person (especially one as "spoiled as Vance was) just DESERVES to be slapped... ha. (And PS, all you folks reading this) NO... I am not saying women (or anyone else..ha) should EVER be mistreated... but in reality... the only thing that REALLY was damaged was her pride.

 

Poor Rip... he's just so misunderstood... ha.

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[rohanaka]

Hello there, Mr. Grey...

 

They didn't offer him any such deal!

 

OH FOR PETE'S SAKE... they never got a CHANCE to.... what were they supposed to do??? Use a OUIJA Board????????

 

And he has too much pride to take such a deal, anyways.

 

Now THAT might be true... but alas... thanks to the Herrera "WITCH" we will never know... ha.

 

He was ready to celebrate, his treat, with his daughter and her man after being swindled by

them! Do you think Vance or good ol' Rip would have done such a thing? No way

 

First of all... they did NOT swindle him... they paid him with HIS OWN currency. It was a FAIR deal. (Granted... NOT the deal he thought he was getting... but it was NOT a swindle either) And second of all... just because he offered to take them to DINNER... does NOT make him a "giver". And no.... I don't think Vance or Rip would have done that if HE had done that to THEM... because HE would have rubbed it all in their FACE.

 

He was a BETTER "loser" than he was a "WINNER". Had he been the one who came out on top with that deal, he would NOT have been anywhere NEAR so gracious to them as they were to him. But for them, there was NO gloating.... not even if you take that remark by Rip about a "son" to it's worst possible conclusion... which I have already explained that I don't... I still say it was a form of a "proposal".

 

T.C. bought Vance the necklace she wished to have.

 

I saw THAT as a familiar "game" of sorts between them. He KNEW the gift she wanted... and she KNEW he would get it for her.... (And PS... it was horrific how the brother and the prospective new sister in law get treated in that scene... (by both Vance AND TC). But in the end... if you think of it... the INSULT was from TC. He was a ?giver? alright.

 

 

He gave her power and sway at the Furies, treating her as almost an equal. He promised her the Furies after he was gone.He even said this with the thought of Flo being his wife. AND, he never ran the Herreras or the other squatters off his land despite the insistence of the bank to do so... until Vance cruelly wronged him.

 

You know.. I got to thinking about this a bit He DID let her run things quite a bit... and he seemed all too willing to let FLO take over as well.

 

Chris may have been on to something (and Jackie too earlier on in one of her rambles... the MOM was likely a "guiding force" in that house when she was alive. I agree with Jackie that the WOMEN in TC's life were a lot stronger than he was.... in a lot of ways. He DID let her "run stuff" (and he also promised her The Furies when he was gone.) But I think the reason for that had NOTHING to do with him being "giving". He was just a "Don't bother me with the details" kinda guy.

 

He took what he wanted... he "made his fortune" and worked hard to GET a lot of stuff... but he was LOUSY at running the business end of things... and the women (both Vance and FLO were not) And I think he had NO idea that Flo had her "schemes" for Vance. So in his mind... he still intended to leave the Furies to Vance when he died... He had NO concept for the fact that it might not even be up to him to leave it to her once Flo got her pretty little paws on it.

 

And as far as him waiting so long to run off the "Herrera"s.... that had LITTLE to do with him... that was Vance's influence on HIM... she kept making deals with him where he AGREED NOT TO. She is the one who kept them from getting cleared out (or wiped out). Without her influence... he'd have listened to the demands of the mortgage companies and they'd have been gone in a heartbeat.

 

T.C. was ALWAYS giving to his daughter and she was ALWAYS taking.

 

When it comes to that.. I DO concede he likely gave her a lot of lovely "trinkets" and gifts, but that was his way of being a "SPOILER" more than a "GIVER".

 

Ohhh, I'll get to

the giving Vance and Rip later this night.

 

GREAT!!!! I will go reload my CANNON.... ha.

 

Keep up the good work, Grey Dude... you are keeping me on my toes!!!! :-)

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[HollywoodGolightly]

*YES... he was arrogant... and even rude. He was not one to "pamper" her or try to spare her feelings. And the money issue... well.... that DID seem pretty awful at the time. But I think that all this stuff served to show that he reallly WAS his own man and that he was not one to be "pushed around" (or even bought off.... and YES... I know thatt seems like a contradiction until you consider what he DID with the money)*

 

That actually does make a lot of sense (to me at least) and I was kind of feeling that way even before I read this, although I didn't really get to include that in my ramble. And unfortunately, it may have been the right way to deal with Vance, because she'd been so spoiled and used to ordering folks around. So in the end Rip did her a favor, though it may not have seemed that way at the time he initially took the 50k.

[movieman1957]

Kathy:

 

TC may have been a tough man in the valley but you are right in that he was mostly show with Vance. Every time he tried to overrule her she would make one comment and he would back down.

 

I think TC did get swindled when they paid him with his own "TCs" because everyone knew they were already worthless.

 

I also agree about Vance feeling stiffed about Rip knot showing up but that was only in her head. Rip never did agree to it. On the other hand he didn't do anything to clarify things but that is his way of being the dominant one.

[MissGoddess]

I really have nothing to add to this exciting debate, but I just wanted to post anyway---because I CAN! I couldn't get a reply in all last night because of, to quote Miss Peacemaker, this ding dang board being so messed up. It's definitely easier for me to get on from my office PC than at home (and both use IE so it's not the browsers). I don't know, maybe my office PC is more "powerful" and can break through whatever "wall" is up against us, ha!!

[movieman1957]

Is it time to pick the next western?

[HollywoodGolightly]

Might not be a bad idea.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> Is it time to pick the next western?

 

Looks like The Furies is still going full steam, but we might as well think about

what could be next.

 

I heard someone shiftless finally got around to watching Hondo....

[FrankGrimes]

OH, DO COME IN IF YOU WISH TO HAVE THE FURIES SPOILED, MY DEAR

 

A wondeful day on the ranch to you, Quiet Gal -- Well, before you go to throwing

THAT up in my face?. Let?s compare, YUCK lists shall we??

 

ME: Only a random FEW lonely little veggies

 

YOU: The ENTIRE VEGGIE KINGDOM (minus ONE: ThePOTATO) HA!

 

Okay, you've got me there again. I only like corn, potatoes, mushy green beans, and

sauerkraut. That's it.

 

Come back and talk to me some more after you EAT YOUR VEGGIES, Sawdust Dude.

 

You mean when I grow up?

 

Maybe. But I really have more or less just based most of my ideas about her one what

she DID do. So going with just that scenario, I do not see her as a TOTAL

cutthroat. (although she DID throw those scissors, ha) I think she had a MUCH more

human side to her than her dad. But I realize from reading all this, I am standing out

in the cold more or less here. (It?s a good thing it?s summer. I can USE a little cooler

temps right now, HA!)

 

And what is it that she did do that makes her have more heart than T.C.?

 

Well she more or less got pushed into it (to satisfy the mortgage guys.) I think if she had

had a better option, she?d have taken it. I don?t think (if she had been running things from

the beginning) she would have chosen someone like El Tigre as her enforcer to

?clear them out? like her dad did.(again, because I don?t see her as being that sort

of ?cutthroat? individual) She did have him carry out the order, but that was because

he was the guy her dad had already hired to do that sort of work. Her DAD is the

one who hired the services of that sort of bloodthirsty monster guy to handle

things. I don?t think she would have if she had been doing the hiring. I think she

would have tried to find a different way.

 

I definitely disagree with you about this. I truly believe Vance is her father's daughter. She

fancies herself as T.C. In fact, I believe she fancies herself TOUGHER than T.C. She thinks

he's too soft. I believe she'd definitely have an "El Tigre" beside her, to help her do the dirty

work.

 

 

And who was it that torched the squatters? Was it T.C.? Did T.C. give in to the bank?

 

 

Did Vance show any remorse or regret for issuing this VERY stern order to El Tigre? Notice

those hands on hips. She means business whenever she does that. That's her serious

signal.

 

I think Juan was a ?realist?. He knew that because of her upbringing (as well as his

own) she was not the right woman for him and he was not the right man for her. (and

I am not necessarily just talking about them coming from different social standings,

though that certainly was a part of it) He knew they would not be able to be together,

but he loved her, and he stood by her.

 

I do agree with you that Juan was realistic, but I'm not sure if he was a realist. If he

were, why would he continue to meet with Vance? That would be a waste of time

to a realist. No, Juan wasn't just a realist, he was also a dreamer, a romantic

dreamer. It's his heart that guides him in life, not his head. Most realists let their

head guide them. Juan is "Romeo," of course. He views Vance as his "Juliet, but

she is certainly not her.

 

 

I totally agree that Rip was an ?I want to win it all? kinda guy. And I also agree that

he wanted to beat Vance (or at least not let her beat him) at least at the beginning.

I think even at the end of it all, he was that way to a degree. But again I have to say,

somewhere along the line his motivations for everything CHANGED. He went from

only wanting PAYBACK and the Darrow Strip to understanding there was more to

life than just getting his revenge. And he also went from wanting to put her in her

place to wanting to keep her by his side. (Oh! I am so alone now. There is almost

an echo echo echo in here... ha!)

 

I do happen to agree with you the most with Rip. I do believe he's the one who has changed

over time. But I don't believe he has transformed.

 

I think I see where you are going here. And y ou are right to a degree. Juan was

smarter than she was in terms of knowing about what LIFE means and what REAL

happiness is. And he understood that a man is NOTHING without integrity (hence

the ?I have no stomach for the way you live? line) But I do still think (when it came

to ?love? he more or less WOULD have been trampled. She would have left him and

moved on because he DIDN?T have the stomach for her way of life. And I think THAT

sort of hurt would have been far greater for him than the hurt of just loving her knowing

she was not ever REALLY going to be his.

 

You are right, I do believe Juan is better off not being with Vance in the end. It's one thing

to love a person from a distance and another to love them upclose.

 

I just wanted to make sure you weren't selling Juan short. He's not a pushover. He wouldn't

let Vance trample him. Just because a guy doesn't "slap" a woman doesn't mean he's weak

and a pushover. I felt Juan to be very strong. The strong, silent-type, of course. His

strength is honest persuasion, and that "slaps" Vance as good as anything. Boy, she

REALLY hates those kind of slaps.

 

When I say the words ?his? or ?hers? in this context, I don?t mean she becomes his

property or that she is ?owed by? him. Rather, what I am saying (likely not well enough)

is that when you give someone your heart. It becomes THEIRS. Your affection, your

being, your spirit in general all become a gift to that person. And you have made

YOURSELF theirs. (as in: I am VERY much the QT?s and he is VERY much

mine... because we have given our hearts to one another.) And for me, that IS love.

 

But Juan or anyone else cannot make anyone give them their heart. And he knows this.

 

He has given his heart to Vance but she hasn't given him hers, and he knows she isn't

going to. So what's he to do? Is he to try and force her to give him her heart by

changing who he is? Now we get to the word you so aptly brought up, "integrity." I don't

believe you can make anyone yours. They have to come to love you.

 

HA!!! WHY don?t you just admit it? TMWSLV is one of the GREATEST westerns ever

made and TOM and RANSE are among two of the BEST characters in a

western... EVER. Ha. (they have to be. Otherwise WHY oh WHY would we spend

so much time going back to them again and again... ha)

 

I love to reference it because it's a movie those I'm discussing with are very familiar with.

 

Ok... we can work with this. ha. I think it WAS a love/hate kinda thing.. The FIRST

time around. But not the second. I think by the time things ran their FULL course, they

had BOTH changed in their motivation and what they wanted.

 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree with this. I still believe Vance and Rip are out to

get what they want. They are for self. What united them the second time around was that

they both wished to get back at T.C. They had a common goal and they "needed" each

other to accomplish what they both sought: The Furies. I don't believe they really love

each other. I believe they are attracted to each other, but not in love. And I believe there's

a world of difference.

 

I'd trust Juan before I'd ever trust a businessman like Rip.

 

I would depend on WHAT I was trusting him for. And again, the RIP at the beginning

of the film... I would NOT have trusted HIM further than I can spit (and unless I have

a MOUTHFUL of peas... ha, that aint too far.) Whoa... THAT sounded ladylike. Ha.

 

By the end of the film I think Vance had a WHOLE NEW level of trust for Rip. When

he pulled that $50 grand out of that safe and handed it to her... that made a HUGE

impact on her (AND ME, )

 

I'm still with Juan. I trust him to look out for me at all times whereas I still believe Rip is

looking out for his own interests.

 

His ?mission? changed. It was NOT just about the revenge and the Darrow Strip. It

began to include HER. And I think he really was looking for GENUINE happiness. His

motivation was different.

 

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm of the belief that it was all about his getting

the Darrow Strip back. That was first and foremost. Vance is secondary. And don't feel

sorry for Vance, because Rip is third in line with her, behind the Furies and T.C. Where

does Vance rank with Juan? First.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Juan knew how much Vance loved her father. He knew she loved him more than any other

person. Juan's love ran so deep that he not only sacrificed his life for Vance, he also

sacrificed his family's home. Do you think Rip would ever do such a thing? But, you are

right, Vance wouldn't want Rip to do that. She'd rather have someone challenge her, fight

her, slap her... hard. That's "love" to her.

 

I think what I'm reacting to more is the charm of T.C.

 

Oh yeah... he was a ?charming? pompous jerk murdering thug. Ha.

 

Hater! But I actually know what you mean. I find Doniphon to be a pompous, condescending

jerk at the outset of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance whereas Miss G and, I think, others

do not. I guess it's all about our own sensibilities, and this is why I these kind of discussions. We now know you like people to be snakes. You must love me, then.

 

And I saw him USE his bitterness. (as opposed to wallowing in it) He HATED anyone

in opposition to him and he resented all the mortgage guys telling him what to do. He

REALLY resented getting older and the feeling that all he had was slipping away. His

MOST bitter enemy of all was AGE.

 

That's an excellent point! I do believe T.C. did resent the fact that age was catching up

to him. This is why he jumped into the mud and then later wrestled the steer to the

ground. He had to show others and himself that he still had it. He was still

King of the Furies.

 

They are two snakes, looking to strike. They are the ones who are out to ruin.

 

I saw Rip that way at the beginning.. but NOT at the end. And I NEVER really saw

HER that way at all. True, she WAS bitter because of Flo and because of what TC

had more or less forced her to do, but she wasn?t out to RUIN anything (except

maybe THEIR faulty plans. (ok, and maybe TC too for a while there as well) She

wanted to KEEP the Furies. And yes, also to take it AWAY from him too) But if SHE

had taken it from him, the BANK was about to. So I think she SAVED more than she

ruined in the end.

 

It is true that Vance did help save the Furies from being foreclosed. But that wasn't her

motivation, of course.

 

I don't trust Vance one darn bit. If you go against her, she will look to make you pay for

doing so. She's going to get what she wants and she's not going to stop until she gets it. The

reason she doesn't come across as being bitter at the end is because T.C. takes defeat so

very well. He compliments her and then offers to celebrate her and Rip's victory over

him. It's T.C. who takes the bitter out of her.

 

You see, T.C. isn't like Vance. When he doesn't get his way, he doesn't stab someone in

the face with scissors or jump on a horse and ride off in anger.

 

Yes, she was MUCH more relaxed with Juan. But as far as her only being "hard"

otherwise... OH... for pty's sake... look closer. In that scene with her and Rip out in

the evening before the big ?TC takeover, she is very ?vulnerable?. And then the next

day when the big moment comes and she is standing there with TC and he is

BRAGGING on her (instead of yelling at her) She is VERY ?non-combative" and

VERY open to be reconciled with him. A VERY "soft" moment for her.

 

Vance has some tender moments outside of Juan, but, for the most part, she is very

harsh, especially when with Rip. Their relationship is fueled by aggressive

conquest. Each likes to dominate. And her reaction to the conquest of T.C. at the end

has to do with how T.C. treats her, not the other way around. She's very smug and looking

to strike until T.C. pays her a compliment. It's T.C. who takes the edge off of her.

 

Yes. They DID go ahead with their plan, but I don?t think it was wrong for them

to. I think it WOULD have been wrong for them to continue on out of REVENGE. But

by that point, that was NOT all there was to it any more.

 

So if they weren't out to get what they wanted, what else was it? Love? They wanted the

Furies because they love each other?

 

T+.C. was very much same. He suredid take delight in teasing and taunting his

daughter about Rip showing her up, but he quickly stops laughing and comforts her

when he sees how much she is hurt. Still, he GETS WHAT HE WANTS.+

 

He was meanspireted in a way that she was not. He was the kinda guy who DID take

pleasure in hurting others like that.

 

I don't think T.C. wished to see her hurt. He stopped his laughing when he saw she was

crying. But I do think he took pleasure in seeing his daughter wrong and he right. He was

gloating. Vance was definitely meanspirited to Flo.

 

Just as Vance and Rip do. And that's the bottom line with bottom-liners.

 

THEY were NOT that way. At least not that I could see. Maybe Rip was a little with

her back at the begining, and she was too a bit w/ her brother. But overall, I did not

see it. (which is one of the reasons why their reaction after "winning" WAS different

than it might have been had they NOT begin to understand that it was not all about

?sticking it ? to TC.

 

They still got what they wanted in the end, the bottom line.

 

Now see... if they HAD gotten married at the BEGINNING of the story, I would concede

to ALL that you are saying. But I think by the end of things... it is a whole NEW ball game.

 

First of all, NO. Even after their change in personality, I don?t thing Vance would allow Rip to control her, but I don?t think that is so much what their marriage would be like anyway. I think they WILL lock horns... but I think it will NOT be done out of a sense of one trying to get the BETTER of the other. I can see her setting him straight as needed, but I think HE will do the same for her from time to time.

 

I think where our biggest disagreement seems to be is in your thinking Vance, Rip, and even

T.C. have transformed by the end of the story and I believe they have not. I believe they are

still who they are. Those spots remain the same.

 

If Vance and Rip bought back the Furies and then gave it all back to T.C., they would have

changed. If Rip would have given up the Darrow Strip, then I would have believed he changed. But none of this happens. Vance wanted control of the Furies from the outset and that's

what she got. She didn't change. Rip wanted the Darrow Strip from the outset and that's

what he got. He didn't change. Neither one of them stepped away, they plowed through.

 

How about this for changing? Why don't Vance and Rip build their OWN Furies? Why don't

they do something for themselves instead of looking to take what T.C. has spent his life

building from scratch? But, no, they are hellbent on getting the Furies. It's all about power

and control, not about building something for one's self.

 

Ha! I imagine it WILL be a VERY rowdy home. escpecially when TC Jr shows

up.ha. But again I don?t think it will be a "mean spirited" thing. I don't see them

trying to do each other in (verbally or otherwise) but I DO see them standing up to

one another when they disagree. I bet t hey have some good old fashioned knock

down, drag outs.

 

Again, we view Vance differently. I don't believe Vance is one to back down. I do

believe Rip is one who would... at times. But he would eventually get sick of it. Of course,

all of this is speculative and based on how we interpret the characters. And I do believe

Vance will get worse and worse with power.

 

And see... I did not get that at all. What I got was... this was his ?official MARRIAGE PROPOSAL? to Vance.

 

Because before he said THAT line all he had been saying up to this point was ?indefinite?

stuff like ?IF we marry,? etc. I took this to be his OFFICIAL ?Vance and I are getting

married,? statement. (and NOT in a ?face in the mud kinda way so much as a ?I?m here

to stay, so get used to it? kinda way.)

 

That's a very good point about his words being like a marriage proposal, but he was looking

right at T.C. when he said them. He's letting T.C. know he's not going anywhere and that

his son is going to take over the Furies after he is gone. He's standing up to T.C., even

challenging him. At that moment in time, he can, since he's holding all the cards. So he

thinks. I don't believe Rip realizes what kind of gal Vance is and where her loyalties truly

lie.

 

He's not bitter like Vance and Rip, but he's definitely proud and driven

 

HA!! Now if you took that statement and TURNED IT AROUND, I would agree with it. He

may not have been ALL that bitter, but by THIS point in the story, I saw NO bitterness

in Vance and RIP whatsoever (but they WERE ?proud and driven?.)

 

Vance and Rip are definitely proud and driven. They are both like T.C. But I never

sensed the bitterness with T.C. He was enraged by Vance's actions against Flo, but

that's about it.

 

 

 

 

 

He DOESN'T want Rip's hands on his Furies, though. No way.

 

WRONG-O my Grey Friend. He was NOT talking to HER (when he said ?don?t name

my Grandson after me) He was talking to RIP. And he said it in a VERY accepting,

?I?m gonna be a Grandpa? kinda way. He had made peace with the idea of Rip as his

son in law. And NO, if he had lived, I don?t think they would have been ?Best Buds? or

anything. But I think by THIS point they were NOT mortal enemies any longer either.

 

So do you believe, if T.C. had lived, he was going to be the content grandpa who was okay

with answering to Rip and Vance? He was willing to sacrifice power and control? I just

don't believe it. You think the war has ended but I think only a battle has ended.

 

Not yet. But you give it some time and Rip will come to hate T.C. because he will not

be his own man with Vance. T.C. will still haunt him. Vance will make sure of this. "You're

no T.C.!"

 

Nope. Not buying it. He will NOT be the type to let Vance ?run? him. (but Yes, during an ?impetuous? angry moment Vance might spout that out at him to hurt him. Like you

said, they do need a little drama now and then. It would have been interesting to see

how he and TC would have avoided killing each other in the future. ha. I am sure there

would have been some major disagreements. But again, I think the way it ended, (for

me at least) I saw the hate gone out of Rip and Vance, and I saw the ?bitterness?

replaced with better motivations for the things they were doing.

 

Well, I must give you credit for being the optimist. I'm definitely the cynic in this

discussion. I believe Vance loves the Furies and T.C. more than Rip. And I think T.C.'s

standing with Vance will sharply increase in death. His faults will disappear and Rip's will

be magnified. I just don't believe Rip and Vance are in love. They needed each other to

get what they truly wanted, not the other way around. That's not to say they won't be

attracted to each other forever. That's love/hate.

 

I know everybody else is seeing it different.... I just took it all this way (for whatever

reason) and OH.. I am just feeling so lonely here in my little boat... ha. But wouldn?t

life be EVER SO BORING if all we did was say ?Oh, I agree?... ha.

 

I have LOVED what you have written. You have done exceptionally well in expressing your

beliefs and feelings about this film and the fascinating relationships within. I think it's

wonderful that a film can produce two differing feelings. I hope others come to watch the

film and then read our words.

 

Well, I had heard there WERE no ?deep discussions? on here anymore. Perish the thought.

 

And you are big reason why, Quiet Gal. Nicely done.

 

First of all... they did NOT swindle him... they paid him with HIS OWN currency. It

was a FAIR deal. (Granted... NOT the deal he thought he was getting... but it was

NOT a swindle either) And second of all... just because he offered to take them to

DINNER... does NOT make him a "giver". And no.... I don't think Vance or Rip would

have done that if HE had done that to THEM... because HE would have rubbed it all

in their FACE.

 

Vance and Rip did end up with the Furies, fair and square, but they still duped T.C. If he

knew it was they who were buying his cattle, he wouldn't have sold it to them. But he is

to blame for this because he said he didn't care who the buyer was. His own arrogance

cost him.

 

He was a BETTER "loser" than he was a "WINNER". Had he been the one who

came out on top with that deal, he would NOT have been anywhere NEAR so

gracious to them as they were to him. But for them, there was NO gloating.... not

even if you take that remark by Rip about a "son" to it's worst possible

conclusion... which I have already explained that I don't... I still say it was a

form of a "proposal".

 

And, you are right, T.C. probably would have gloated over such an accomplish and I do think

Rip twisted the knife in T.C. with his saying he wouldn't stop until he owned all the Furies.

T.C. brushed that off and offered to celebrate THEIR victory and HIS loss. That's quite big

of him. There is reason he does this, too. It's to show he's not a defeated man.

 

He really is a better loser than winner. Great point.

 

I saw THAT as a familiar "game" of sorts between them. He KNEW the gift she

wanted... and she KNEW he would get it for her.... (And PS... it was horrific how

the brother and the prospective new sister in law get treated in that scene... (by

both Vance AND TC). But in the end... if you think of it... the INSULT was from TC. He

was a ?giver? alright.

 

T.C. wasn't giving to his son, Clay. He had disdain for him. He was extremely giving

to Vance.

 

Chris may have been on to something (and Jackie too earlier on in one of her

rambles... the MOM was likely a "guiding force" in that house when she was

alive. I agree with Jackie that the WOMEN in TC's life were a lot stronger than he

was.... in a lot of ways. He DID let her "run stuff" (and he also promised her The Furies

when he was gone.) But I think the reason for that had NOTHING to do with him being

giving. He was just a "Don't bother me with the details" kinda guy.

 

But he trusted Vance to run the Furies. He was GIVING her power that she

CRAVED. He didn't have to do this.

 

He took what he wanted... he "made his fortune" and worked hard to GET a lot

of stuff... but he was LOUSY at running the business end of things... and the

women (both Vance and FLO were not) And I think he had NO idea that Flo

had her "schemes" for Vance. So in his mind... he still intended to leave the

Furies to Vance when he died... He had NO concept for the fact that it might

not even be up to him to leave it to her once Flo got her pretty little paws on it.

 

I definitely agree with you, T.C. his unaware of Flo's schemes. But I don't think he would

have let Flo snooker him out of the Furies.

 

T.C. was definitely reckless when it came to spending his "money." Life was but a party

to him and he was to be the life of the party.

 

And as far as him waiting so long to run off the "Herrera"s.... that had LITTLE to do

with him... that was Vance's influence on HIM... she kept making deals with him

where he AGREED NOT TO. She is the one who kept them from getting cleared

out (or wiped out). Without her influence... he'd have listened to the demands of

the mortgage companies and they'd have been gone in a heartbeat.

 

But that's exactly my point. T.C. is GIVING Vance what she wants. Your daughter could

say she wants chocolate chip cookies for dinner every night, but she can ONLY ask. You

are the one with the power to grant such a wish. You are the one who can GIVE her that.

T.C. always GAVE Vance what she wanted with the Herreras, going against the wishes of

the bank.

 

When it comes to that.. I DO concede he likely gave her a lot of lovely "trinkets" and

gifts, but that was his way of being a "SPOILER" more than a "GIVER".

 

But spoiling is a form of giving. You are still handing something over. What did Vance give

T.C.?

 

Vance had sway with T.C., but not power over him. She had to use her head to figure out

how she could gain power over T.C. Her first "power move" was to like a man her father

hated. This is one of the first things a daughter can do to get at their father. And I speak

of Rip, not Juan.

 

Now what if Vance decided to go with Juan? Would she have any power over T.C.? I say

she wouldn't. Juan wasn't interested in playing power games and he didn't have the money

to do so. Ahhh, but what about Rip? Rip is a con artist. Rip also ends up using the

$50,000 he cons out of T.C. to become a banker. As a banker, Rip now has the power

to contend with T.C., hence Vance's interest in Rip the second time around. Again, all

of this is about power.

 

You know, when Vance goes to see Rip about the money for her scheme, it actually

reminded me of when Scarlett goes to see Rhett in jail. Scarlett's interest in Rhett is

purely money. And what does Rhett do? He laughs at her. Rip gives Vance the money

because he is interested in getting the Darrow Strip back. He wants in on the deal.

 

 

 

 

[HollywoodGolightly]

Hondo could be a fun movie for a ramble!

 

After everyone has had a chance to speak their mind about The Furies, naturally.

 

*Notice those hands on hips. She means business whenever she does that. That's her serious*

*signal.*

 

That's a good catch. Excellent use of body language on the part of Miss Stanwyck.

[MissGoddess]

Wowee! The debate is definitely not over, ha!! Run for cover everyone, the "Peacemaker"

is going to have to come back with both guns and all her ropes blazing, lol.

 

Great rebuttal MrGrimes, I have to admit. And you really nailed the characters, for me at

least, especially T.C. I love him now where before I just liked him tremendously. He's

such a toweringly entertaining character. And so alive. Which makes me think

this about Flo: what fool. I mean, all she wanted was his money when she didn't aprpeciate

that for once here was a man worth having. Because the money can disappear but

the man could always find a way to make it back---and still make life fun in the bargain. Not too

often do you find that.

 

I thought this was especially perceptive: "And I think T.C.'s standing with Vance will sharply

increase in death. His faults will disappear and Rip's will be magnified." Boy oh boy,

I can REALLY picture that happening. And just as the mother's room and portrait loomed

over T.C. and Vance, so would T.C.'s portrait and legacy loom over Vance and Rip. People

love to magnify the "legend" of men like that and Vance, because she fancies herself so

like T.C., would do all she could to contribute to that myth-making.

 

Fascinating discussion! And well done with the screencaps by BOTH of you---you guys

really found the exact moments to illustrate your points.

[JackFavell]

But I actually know what you mean. I find Doniphon to be a pompous, condescending

jerk at the outset of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance whereas Miss G and, I think, others

do not.

 

I just had to jump in here. I actually agree with you about Tom...... HE is the blowhard at the beginning of the film... he takes Hallie's love for granted, just as Rance has done later. Otherwise, Hallie would never have fallen for Rance. Does a woman's love do this to a man? Or are all men so full of themselves that they eventually revert to blowhard? Once you have our love, do you have to be such jerks?

 

That's an excellent point! I do believe T.C. did resent the fact that age was catching up

to him. This is why he jumped into the mud and then later wrestled the steer to the

ground. He had to show others and himself that he still had it. He was still

King of the Furies.

 

He jumped in the mud because someone intimated that the bull was "King of the Furies" - he was jealous of that bull...... and he had to take him down, even if it killed him to do it.

 

You say that T.C. was a giver, but I see him more as an "indian giver". (what a terrible phrase) - He promised Vance The Furies, but was willing to let it slip away to Flo at the drop of a hat. He gave Vance jewels, but that was more about his ABILITY to give than about true giving. This is a weak argument to me.

[MissGoddess]

SPOILER

 

I'm starting to picture myself in Flo's place and I'm not sure I wouldn't want to send

Vance away myself, lol, just to teach her a lesson. It's interesting that Vance never

stops to think for a moment that her father is happy with Flo. I'm not saying I don't

disapprove of Flo's sneaky manipulations and phoniness---in fact, I do believe Flo

made a tragic mistake by thinking she needed to use such "tools" as she did in

D.C. She already pretty much had T.C.'s affection, so she could have played it

straight with Vance from the beginning. HOWEVER, I think that even had Flo

played it straight, Vance would have hated her just as much if not MORE, just

as she'd deeply resent any woman coming between her and T.C. and The Furies. So

poor Flo might have gotten stuck with the scissors regardless of how she handled

her, ha!!

 

I'm even wondering now if Vance wouldn't have started to resent her OWN mother

had she lived long enough. I can somehow imagine the mother getting slowly

edged out of the top place in T.C.'s affections as Vance grew older---unless she

was strong enough to keep her daughter in her place. I sense she wasn't strong

enough. Clay is probably more like his mother.

 

The speculations are endless. I really am surprised by how much this movie

has yielded. I knew it would make an interesting discussion, but I didn't think

it would get this fascinating! I wish Mad Hat would poke his brim in for a spell.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> You say that T.C. was a giver, but I see him more as an "indian giver". (what a terrible phrase) - He promised Vance The Furies, but was willing to let it slip away to Flo at the drop of a hat. He gave Vance jewels, but that was more about his ABILITY to give than about true giving. This is a weak argument to me.

 

I think you're on to something. The way I see it, T.C. craved affection more than anything else, so he was probably willing to promise and/or give just about anything to make sure he got some, either from his daughter or even from a gold-digger like Flo. I've known men like T.C. - they could pretty much buy any material thing they could think of, but genuine affection was not always so easy to come by.

[JackFavell]

I agree, MissG. I think the mother probably would have faded away to her room quietly and left the two kids (I mean T.C. and Vance) to their own devices. I think she would never have come between them. That's the difference in how I picture her behavior, as opposed to Flo's. And I know I said Flo was all the worst things in the world, but really, she was just a foolish woman in the end. As you say, she could have simply appreciated T.C., and ended her days with him in some kind of relationship, maybe at a neighboring homestead, a la Aline MacMahon... or she could have struck some kind of a deal with Vance..... but she had to play politics and that was deadly for her. She wasn't dealing with stupid people here, but she acted as if she was.

 

She is a sad case....

[movieman1957]

I am not nearly enamored with TC as much as the rest of you. He picked Flo and I don't care for her. She is pretty much just using TC. She may like him but she could have company of anybody if that were all. He won't stand up to his daughter. He hanged (hung?) Juan. It was bad enough he burned out the others.

 

It is my sense of fair play (that may not be the right word) but you work within the law. I don't think what we did to Juan meets that mark.

 

Message was edited by: movieman1957

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=HollywoodGolightly wrote:}{quote}

> I think you're on to something. The way I see it, T.C. craved affection more than anything else, so he was probably willing to promise and/or give just about anything to make sure he got some, either from his daughter or even from a gold-digger like Flo. I've known men like T.C. - they could pretty much buy any material thing they could think of, but genuine affection was not always so easy to come by.

 

Holly, that was very good.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I am not nearly enamored with TC as much as the rest of you. He picked Flo and I don't care for her. she is pretty much just using TC. He won't stand up to his daughter. He hanged (hung?) Juan. It was bad enough he burned out the others.

>

 

I don't think he will stand up as you say, to Vance, because he's so filled

with pride at the same time---he sees himself in her. He likes her fire, it

amuses him and gives him confidence that she can run his beloved empire

after he's gone. Because she's an emporess, just as he's a conqueror.

 

And believe me, I love Juan more than T.C. but I'd love to have both men

in my life---that stupid Vance, she didn't know how fortunate she was to

know TWO such men.

 

> It is my sense of fair play (that may not be the right word) but you work within the law. I don't think what we did to Juan meets that mark.

 

Oh I agree----but this is the west where me like T.C. were their own law. He's never

presented to us as a law abiding, Ransom Stoddard type. He's the archtypical

cattle BARON.

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> I agree, MissG. I think the mother probably would have faded away to her room quietly and left the two kids (I mean T.C. and Vance) to their own devices. I think she would never have come between them. That's the difference in how I picture her behavior, as opposed to Flo's. And I know I said Flo was all the worst things in the world, but really, she was just a foolish woman in the end. As you say, she could have simply appreciated T.C., and ended her days with him in some kind of relationship, maybe at a neighboring homestead, a la Aline MacMahon... or she could have struck some kind of a deal with Vance..... but she had to play politics and that was deadly for her. She wasn't dealing with stupid people here, but she acted as if she was.

>

> She is a sad case....

 

Good point of how she underestimated the westerners here. That is an aspect of

the character I had not considered before and it deepens my appreciation for this

discussion AND the movie. Anthony Mann may have been showing how Eastern

slickness really had met its match with western cutthroat methods (pun intended.)

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> But I actually know what you mean. I find Doniphon to be a pompous, condescending

> jerk at the outset of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance whereas Miss G and, I think, others

> do not.

>

> I just had to jump in here. I actually agree with you about Tom...... HE is the blowhard at the beginning of the film... he takes Hallie's love for granted, just as Rance has done later. Otherwise, Hallie would never have fallen for Rance. Does a woman's love do this to a man? Or are all men so full of themselves that they eventually revert to blowhard? Once you have our love, do you have to be such jerks?

>

 

Ok, I'm ready to take you BOTH on about that any time anywhere. Well, maybe

we better wait till the Furies discussion plays out. Because I can back up my contention

that it was far more than "blowing" off hot air or empty boasting when Tom speaks the

way he does at the outset. But I'm saving my ammo for now.

[movieman1957]

Oh my, there is going to be a fight. Clear the streets. Call the sheriff.

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> > {quote:title=HollywoodGolightly wrote:}{quote}

> > I think you're on to something. The way I see it, T.C. craved affection more than anything else, so he was probably willing to promise and/or give just about anything to make sure he got some, either from his daughter or even from a gold-digger like Flo. I've known men like T.C. - they could pretty much buy any material thing they could think of, but genuine affection was not always so easy to come by.

>

> Holly, that was very good.

 

Thank you!

 

These discussions are very intellectually stimulating.

 

 

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> It is my sense of fair play (that may not be the right word) but you work within the law. I don't think what we did to Juan meets that mark.

 

Of course it didn't - he was just doing what they call "under color of law". And it was also a white man applying "justice" to a Mexican. This brings up another interesting aspect that I don't think has been mentioned (or maybe I just missed it), which is the part about miscegenation. Wouldn't it have been perceived as miscegenation if Vance and Juan had gotten together? Or was it something that only applied to whites getting together with African-Americans or Native Americans?

 

Mann had been sensitive to racial issues in other movies, like Border Incident and Devil's Doorway. I think he was also aware of the racial issue in The Furies with Vance and Juan.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> Oh my, there is going to be a fight. Clear the streets. Call the sheriff.

 

HA!! Some good THAT will do!

 

[movieman1957]

Ok. Ok. Clear the streets. (He'll be the first one off.)

[FrankGrimes]

THE FURIES SPOILERS

 

Good morn, Fordy Guns -- Great rebuttal MrGrimes, I have to admit.

 

Thank you. But the credit belongs to Quiet Gal. It's her well-thought-out replies and true

feelings that create such a terrific discussion. You know me, I'm reactive. She's the giver

and I'm the taker.

 

And you really nailed the characters, for me at least, especially T.C. I love him now

where before I just liked him tremendously. He's such a toweringly entertaining

character. And so alive.

 

That's how I feel about T.C., as well. I'm not saying he didn't have his many faults and that

he didn't love himself more than anyone else. He was certainly an egotist. Still, his

personality was quite refreshing to me. This is why I feel The Furies is Walter

Huston's film more than Barbara Stanwyck's. He's the one who fills up the screen, ala

Charles Foster Kane (Orson Welles) in Citizen Kane.

 

Which makes me think this about Flo: what fool. I mean, all she wanted was his

money when she didn't aprpeciate that for once here was a man worth having. Because

the money can disappear but the man could always find a way to make it back---and

still make life fun in the bargain. Not too often do you find that.

 

I believe Flo was similar to T.C., hence their own attractions toward each other. They

weren't in love, they just "needed" each other. Again, they were means to an end. Flo

was aging and she was looking for security more so than love and fun. Having said

that, I do think she was having her fun with T.C. T.C. will have his fun with most anyone.

 

I thought this was especially perceptive: "And I think T.C.'s standing with Vance will

sharply increase in death. His faults will disappear and Rip's will be magnified." Boy

oh boy, I can REALLY picture that happening. And just as the mother's room and

portrait loomed over T.C. and Vance, so would T.C.'s portrait and legacy loom over

Vance and Rip. People love to magnify the "legend" of men like that and Vance,

because she fancies herself so like T.C., would do all she could to contribute to

that myth-making.

 

I completely agree with you. All T.C. has to do is say or do the wrong thing and Vance

would get upset with him. Well, he can't do this anymore, so Vance isn't going to get upset

with him anymore. She is only going to see T.C.'s greatness now. Rip has no shot against

a dead legend, a dead legend of a father. He won't be able to escape T.C. at the Furies.

 

And your point about Vance's image of T.C. growing in death because she views herself

as T.C. is an excellent one. She's going to be try and match T.C. in every way. To fall

short of her image of him would be failure. She will be chasing a ghost and Rip will be looking

to escape it.

 

And, just so you know, I've rewatched most of The Far Country. I will get to your

previous comment later tonight.

 

Good morn, Jackie Ford -- But I actually know what you mean. I find Doniphon

to be a pompous, condescending jerk at the outset of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

whereas Miss G and, I think, others do not.

 

I just had to jump in here. I actually agree with you about Tom...... HE is the blowhard at

the beginning of the film... he takes Hallie's love for granted, just as Rance has done

later. Otherwise, Hallie would never have fallen for Rance.

 

That is how I also feel about Doniphon at the outset. He has ALL the answers and

everyone else is beneath him. I find him to be very condescending. Granted, I think his

initial treatment of Ranse to be a natural one: he feels threatened by him. Doniphon was

right to feel threatened, so he DID have the answer there. His instincts were right.

 

Does a woman's love do this to a man? Or are all men so full of themselves that

they eventually revert to blowhard? Once you have our love, do you have to be such

jerks?

 

Yep, we're all blowhards. Look at Cowboy Chris! Biggest blowhard on this board. Me, on

the other hand, I'm a gentleman.

 

Men generally like challenges. Once we cross a finish line, we pull up a sofa.

 

He jumped in the mud because someone intimated that the bull was "King of the

Furies" - he was jealous of that bull...... and he had to take him down, even if it killed

him to do it.

 

That's a very good point. No one is to be better than T.C. He's the king.

 

You say that T.C. was a giver, but I see him more as an "indian giver". (what a terrible

phrase) - He promised Vance The Furies, but was willing to let it slip away to Flo at the

drop of a hat. He gave Vance jewels, but that was more about his ABILITY to give than

about true giving. This is a weak argument to me.

 

Yes, you'll find much "indian giving" with T.C., still, he's giving. But let me ask you this,

why does he allow the Herreras to remain on his property? What's he getting out of that?

 

I like the necklace bit because T.C. KNOWS what his daughter wants and he first teases

her about it before GIVING her what she wants. Still, he gives her what SHE wants.

 

But, you are right, most of T.C.'s giving is done to show he's the boss, he's the one in

charge, he's the one you are to come to. His offer to celebrate the victory of Vance and Rip

was a way for him to stay in power. He was making the decision, not them. It's all about

power. It's good to be the king.

 

I must flee!