Western Movie Rambles

[rohanaka]

My DEAR Grey Dude:

 

(I swear, if that FLO had said ?My Dear? one more time, I was going to go get a pair of scissors MYSELF! Ha.)

 

Well, before I get started, I will just warn you all, this will be YET another ridiculously longwinded affair, so please forgive me for my ?wordiness?. Batten down those hatches, my friends. My little boat is about to go sailing.

 

And what is it that she did do that makes her have more heart than T.C.?

 

In the interest of time, I will give you only one example:

 

After Vance has her SCISSOR fit and runs off to the Herrera?s THIS is YOUR guy and his response:

 

 

And this is VANCE:

 

 

TC was out for revenge. He meant to make her pay. And he had LITTLE thought about the ?after effects? of his actions. And you COULD say that Vance was the same way when she threw the scissors, and you?d be right. EXCEPT that she threw them at FLO (not her own flesh and blood, not someone she LOVED.) Who KNEW what might have happened when TC set off after Vance that night? She might have been SERIOUSLY injured, or maybe even have been killed, but TC had NO worry over that at all. He?d think about THAT later. (As a parent, all I can say is, this offends my ?MOM-O-METER? in the worlds worst way)

 

All that mattered to him was getting HER back for what she?d just done. Even if you argue that at SOME point TC?s focus shifted from getting back at HER to taking care of the Herrera?s, he STILL had little thought as to her safety and welfare. He was mad, he had had enough, and he was out to get back at her any way he could.

 

She on the other hand HATED what she thought was going to happen to him. In spite of everything, she still loved him, and in the end, (though Juan gave the order) she saved her father?s life. That Herrera Witch was about to drop him where he stood, (and rightly so) but because of her influence on Juan, TC?s life was spared.

 

He did NOT return the favor, by the way (as you already know)

 

He had NO thought for anyone but himself, and he lied and went against his word NUMEROUS times both to her and to the Hererra?s. When he decided to hang Juan, he allowed El Tigre to give him the ?excuse? to make it all end up looking ?justified? But we all know the REAL reason he had Juan killed was two fold. 1) to use him as an example to warn all the OTHER squatters not to come back and 2) (More to the point) to hurt VANCE (His own flesh and blood, and the woman who just played a MAJOR role in saving his life.)

 

So I gotta go with my original statement here. She was MUCH more human than he was. He was cold blooded and ruthless to the core. For all his ?fun? and boisterous exterior, his heart was very black.

 

Which brings me to an interesting observation:

 

I think the reason we have been able to watch the same movie and come down so COMPLETELY on opposite sides of the fence here is because (drum roll please) In a LOT of respects, these are some VERY Gray (I mean GREY) characters.

 

It would be EASY for us all to agree what the right or the wrong of some of these situations were if they were spelled out better for us in the characters and their motivations. But all throughout the story you see pretty much ALL of these characters (maybe excluding FLO, but maybe not) behaving in both black and white ways. But because their actions are viewed from a GREY perspective ( as in WAS it wrong or right for Vance and Rip to use the TC?s to pay off TC?) we can all draw our own conclusions about what they did or did not do based on what WE think is the right answer. This is an extremely ?gray? way to look at things. (which for all my ?black and white ways, I gotta confess I have enjoyed for a change) ha.

 

I truly believe Vance is her father's daughter. She fancies herself as T.C. In fact, I believe she fancies herself TOUGHER than T.C. She thinks he's too soft. I believe she'd definitely have an "El Tigre" beside her, to help her do the dirty work.

 

And who was it that torched the squatters? Was it T.C.? Did T.C. give in to the bank?

 

Did Vance show any remorse or regret for issuing this VERY stern order to El Tigre? Notice

those hands on hips. She means business whenever she does that. That's her serious

signal.

 

I went back and revisited that WHOLE thing. And I think you are both right AND wrong (ha, now THERE?s a ?grey? answer for you!)

 

Now stay with me because this will take some twists and turns here before I am done:

 

I think Vance is at a turning point in the story here. She was hurt so badly by Rip that she is THROWING herself in to being as MUCH like her father as she can. So I agree, she is VERY harsh here.

 

At the beginning of things, she WAS strong and harsh as well, but in a ?spoiled rich girl? sort of way. As the story progressed, and she fell in love with Rip and was then rejected by him, she took on a different aspect to her ?tough girl? personality. Her motivation became to be MORE like TC because HE was against Rip and Rip was now her enemy. She was out to prove that puny Mr. Darrow was not going to get the better of her and she could be as tough and rough and in charge as anyone (including her father) She already had a good start on this to begin with just by the way TC had raised her, but she really threw herself into the role. And so the Vance you are seeing at this point in the story isn?t really HER so much as it is HER trying her best to be like TC.

 

After giving that order to El Tigre, she goes out to deal with the Hererra?s herself. And she WANTS to be as tough as she NEEDS to be to do it. So again, who does she try to be? Not HERSELF, but TC.

 

(she has her hands on her hips HERE too)

 

Juan sees right through her:

 

And she can?t keep up the ?fa?ade? she is trying to hide behind anymore:

 

If you notice, Vance is always at her worst when she is acting like her father. And I think more than anything Vance would LIKE to be as much like TC as possible, but she doesn?t have it in her. Because she DOES have a more ?human? heart. She even recognizes how much she needs to have someone out there keeping her in line. (Because TC never really did, he let her be as free as she wanted to be) That to me shows she understands that it ISN?T always right to just act any old way you want. TC doesn?t have that sort of ?self-censorship?.

 

I do agree with you that Juan was realistic, but I'm not sure if he was a realist.

 

That is likely a better way to say that, I agree.

 

But Juan or anyone else cannot make anyone give them their heart. And he knows this.

You are right. But that isn?t really what I have been trying to say when I refer to ?making her his/him hers. I don't believe you can make anyone yours. They have to come to love you.

 

You are WRONG on the first count (ha) and RIGHT on the second. I think we are saying similar things, I am just not ?splaining? it good enough.

 

It?s not about making or ?forcing? someone to love you, or even ?overpowering? another to make them love you. The way I am meaning the phrase ? to make her his? refers to what I was saying about how you give your heart to someone else and then it becomes THEIRS. By way of explanation I will say that when I fell in love with my husband it was because something I saw in him made me want HIM and no one else. I was drawn to his spirit and his personality, and his inward qualities. I wanted HIM in my life and no one else. In that sense, I became HIS. It was a WILFULL choice on MY part to say: (16 yrs ago this very week as a matter of fact) ?I am YOURS. You have me and you are STUCK with me" (ha) So in that sense, he (or I guess you COULD say instead ?the love I had for him? ) made me HIS. And he would tell you the same about me. (to quote the scripture, ?My beloved is mine?)

 

And I think JUAN will tell you, nothing is worse than willingly giving your heart to someone who can never give you theirs in return. He was HERS in the way I just described above, but she was not ever going to be able to be HIS (in that respect).

 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree with this. I still believe Vance and Rip are out to

get what they want. They are for self. What united them the second time around was that

they both wished to get back at T.C. They had a common goal and they "needed" each

other to accomplish what they both sought: The Furies. I don't believe they really love

each other. I believe they are attracted to each other, but not in love. And I believe there's

a world of difference.

 

Well, you are right about the fact that there is a WORLD of difference between attraction and love. But you are also right, we DO seem predestined to agree to disagree. After going through some of those scenes between Rip and Vance again yesterday, I believe NOW more than ever that he loved her (and almost from the beginning) I also believe she loved him by the end of the film, but NOT at the beginning. (but I will come back to that in a while)

 

First I want to get to something that I alluded to in my earlier post. And you were RIGHT. I DO like him now from the very beginning. And I owe it all to YOU, sir. (ha)I

 

do happen to agree with you the most with Rip. I do believe he's the one who has changedover time. But I don't believe he has transformed

 

Back when we started all this, I said that I HATED him in the early parts of the story, but that I thought he really changed a lot as the story went on. But that is because I was viewing him through the same lens as TC. (especially in the EARLY parts of the movie) It is an easy ?trap? to fall into (especially if you take him only on 'face value") And that is what VANCE certainly did (Especially after the ?Dowry Money Incident?)

 

But I have gotten to know my dear sweet, Mr. Darrow a lot better now, and I see in him MANY interesting and thought provoking traits I had not paid attention to before.

 

Now I WILL admit that Rip Darrow has a LOT of issues. He is NOT your average ?White Hat?. He DOES tend to REEK of Grayness. (HA!) He is a "business man" and he DOES like power and money, but he is NO deceiver or ?underhanded? money grubbing swindler. (as I first thought him to be as the early parts of the story were playing out.) Though he does go through SOME changes, I have come to think that he really stays pretty much the same throughout the story. (I know, after me spending all that time HARPING about it. Let?s all roll our eyes together. HA)

 

The real change isn?t in HIM it is in my PERCEPTION of him.

 

At SOME POINT in the past, Rip Darrow has SEETHED with hate for TC. (and the Furies). And while it is true that he never completely ?overcomes? his true feelings for TC, he also doesn?t make his hatred of the man the thing that DRIVES him.

 

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp295/amesann/thefuries/thefuries146.jpg>

 

In fact, it COULD be interpreted by what he said there that he doesn?t even hate him anymore at all (but I don?t think I want to go that far) I will just say that he is more or less warning Vance (from his own experience) that being in love with ?HATE? is a hard way to live. (and I think he did this because he cares for her as much as anything else)

 

And now, to the BIG question:

DOES he love Vance or not? I say he does. And I also say he loves her VERY early on in the story. But at that point, SHE was not ready to love him (yet).

 

Let?s start at the very beginning of this whole thing. Vance will NEVER be happy with any man so long as she idolizes TC so completely:

 

 

Notice she asks Rip that same question but gets a VERY different answer.

 

And PS: Rip knows that TC has it in for him. Earlier in the story TC gives El Tigre the order to get rid of Rip. Even though Rip goes to the wedding party, he wants NO part of the trouble. He knows TC is his enemy (and that ultimately Vance would be too, if things stayed the same as they start out for the two of them) He also knows that TC takes him to be just some lowlife money grubber. ( I think you used the word ?swindler?) And he feels NO obligation to him or to VANCE (of to YOU for that matter HA!) to try and prove himself. He wouldn?t be able to even if he tried. He knows that so long as TC influences Vance and the way she thinks, she will always be a spoiled brat looking to have everything her own way and trying to lead him around by the nose.

 

He tells her he does not want to be pushed around by her, or by TC. But Vance more or less ignores everything she just heard and just decides to play games.

 

When Rip doesn?t show up for ?cake? Vance goes after him. She is bound and determined she is going to get what she wants. And if she had not gone to him like that, it is possible that would have been the end of their relationship. But when she shows up (and starts attacking him by the way, he was rough with her but SHE started it) he is able to give her a glimpse of who he REALLY is. (And it is not the fall at her feet puppy she thought he was)

 

 

He has made it clear to her now that he is his own man and will not be pushed around. But as time goes by, I think he sees that she is still too much her father?s daughter. She still thinks he is only after her money and that she can use it to control him (and he knows it) He has more or less become fatalistic about their relationship:

 

 

And so he goes to The Furies and meets up with TC and they have their chat. And of course it goes very badly. When TC asks Rip if he loves Vance, Rip answers YES. And I think it is because he DOES love her. No matter what you think about him, (and we could go back and forth as to his TRUE nature forever) ONE thing I think you would agree about is that he does NOT seem to be in the habit of LYING, especially to HER. So for him to make a statement like that, I think it would have to be the truth. But he is also wise enough to know that at least at THIS point in the story, Vance is not ready to love HIM.

 

 

TC aims to make her see alright. But he doesn?t want her to see anything but what he THINKS she should see. He has made Rip out to be a certain way and Rip knows that no matter WHAT he does, TC will win. (Remember the line earlier about how he knows when to ?walk away? when he is losing) If he marries Vance (and takes her away from the Furies) she will come to hate him for coming between her and her father. And Rip also knows he will NEVER live up to the image she has of TC. And if he walks away, (and does the noble thing like ?leave the money behind) she will just follow after him AGAIN. But by taking the money, he more or less gets rid of her (but I mean that in a good way, ha) and saves his battle for another day. TC more or less put him in a NO WIN situation. So what does he do (cut his losses and leaves) just like he told her he?d do.

When he came to the house that day, he knew EXACTLY what was going to happen. He needed to show VANCE that he would NOT be pushed around by her or TC. And yes, it DID look bad for him when he took the money. But again, consider what he DID with it later on. He bides his time and waits for Vance to have her eyes opened about TC. That is the only way they could ever be together. And yes, it was a gamble for him to do that. It was a big risk. But it is one that paid off in the end.

 

Another thing that struck me too this time around with my screencaps was the way it almost seemed like Rip is going out of his way to establish HIMSELF in the community by making everyone compare him to TC. Look at what he has named his place: THE LEGAL TENDER. He is almost mocking TC?s ?Illegal? tender with the name. Could he also be trying to show the townsfolk that HE is the one who will play things above board when it comes time to do business? EVERYBODY was sick and tired of getting paid with TC?s. Rip is saying, ?Look, I am the one around here with REAL money?.

 

Hater! But I actually know what you mean. I find Doniphon to be a pompous, condescending

jerk at the outset of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance whereas Miss G and, I think, others

do not. I guess it's all about our own sensibilities, and this is why I these kind of discussions. We now know you like people to be snakes. You must love me, then.

 

YOU are such a CRACK up. I will go sick REGGIE on you at any moment. HA. And PS: I think I come down somewhere in the MIDDLE with Tom Doniphon. He may not have BEEN a ?pompous condescending blah blah blah, but at the beginning (especially with Ranse) he was acting like one. (Ha, how?s THAT for a diplomatic answer) Ha.

 

I don't trust Vance one darn bit. If you go against her, she will look to make you pay for

doing so. She's going to get what she wants and she's not going to stop until she gets it. The

reason she doesn't come across as being bitter at the end is because T.C. takes defeat so

very well. He compliments her and then offers to celebrate her and Rip's victory over

him. It's T.C. who takes the bitter out of her

 

NO I still say that happened more or less by the time she and Rip had their convresation the night before. He more or less makes her see the truth. (that the "victory" she thought she was winning was NOT the thing that was going to make her happy after all)

 

Let's face it. From where she started out, Vance had a LONG way to go. She is the one who I think really changes the most in this story. There were times when she is exactly as you describe her here. But I still say by the end of this all she had come to be a LOT more like a REAL person and less like her ?image? of TC

.

You see, T.C. isn't like Vance. When he doesn't get his way, he doesn't stab someone in

the face with scissors or jump on a horse and ride off in anger.

 

NO. He just goes out and HANGS somebody.

 

So if they weren't out to get what they wanted, what else was it? Love? They wanted the

Furies because they love each other?

 

NO. (NOW you are being a SMART MOUTH) ha. Why should they NOT have done what they did?? TC deserved EVERYTHING he got (maybe even WORSE than he got) I don?t have any problem with them beating him at his own game.

 

Let?s face it. TOO Much water was ?FLO-ing? under the bridge for Vance and TC to go back to being the way they were. She had ALWAYS idolized her father and it had made her blind to his REAL nature (which for all of its charm was VERY flawed) She got a GOOD LONG LOOK at his clay feet and things were NEVER going to be the same for the two of them after that.

 

True, the plan she came up with to take The Furies away from him was made while she was VERY angry at him and more or less hated his guts. But she also KNEW that if she did not get The Furies, TC would lose it (either to Flo or to the bank) I have a screencap but I am too lazy (or is it UTTERLY EXHAUSTED, ha) to go look it up) where Rip and she discuss this at the outset of their plans. They BOTH know TC is going to lose The Furies one way or another if things don't change. Once she got over all that hate, what choice did she really have left? She still saw this as her best chance to get The Furies from TC (and/or keep it from going to FLO or the bank) only now it would be a ?hollow? victory for her because she no longer HATED TC but she also no longer had the ?idol? she'd made of him to look up to the way she always had in the past. I don?t think she felt she had any real alternative but to go through with it.

 

And as for Rip, I am sure he was in it for the money and the power. I didn't mean to imply he was "sterling" in his reasons. But I also think he was in it for HER too. And I think he was LONG over using his HATE for TC as a reason to do anything. So by the end of it all, they both had their reasons for following through with it. Maybe they were not ?high and lofty? reasons, but they were still valid reasons more or less.

 

They still got what they wanted in the end, the bottom line.

 

But that does not mean that is was wrong. (listen to me, I can?t believe I am saying all this "GREY speak" HA)

 

I think where our biggest disagreement seems to be is in your thinking Vance, Rip, and even

T.C. have transformed by the end of the story and I believe they have not. I believe they are

still who they are. Those spots remain the same.

 

And you might be right. But really I am thinking that our biggest disagreement comes in that you seem to think that TC is a rascal and perhaps even a ?scoundrel? but still basically the ?good guy? in all this (if there is one) and that Vance and Rip are just money hungry lowlife?s out to take what they can get. But I say it is a LOT more complex than that. They were NOT so ?clearly defined? .

 

If Vance and Rip bought back the Furies and then gave it all back to T.C., they would have

changed. If Rip would have given up the Darrow Strip, then I would have believed he changed. But none of this happens. Vance wanted control of the Furies from the outset and that's

what she got. She didn't change. Rip wanted the Darrow Strip from the outset and that's

what he got. He didn't change. Neither one of them stepped away, they plowed through.

 

But is THIS the only way you would concede there was some ?change? in them? Again, I think one of our biggest disagreements is in how we view the MOTIVATIONS for what it is they do. You see these things as being WRONG for them, (Oh! How did you get to be such a black and white kinda guy?) And I am saying they are NOT necessarily wrong based on what I believe are their REASONS for doing what they do by the end of the story. (and HOW did I ever get so GRAY?? Ha) Are there no other ways you could look at their characters and be able to say that they were NOT the same by the end as they were at the beginning of things?

 

And (ps) I am REALLY taking my new stand on Rip here. Of ALL the characters, I think he changed the least. (But that is because he has the LEAST reason to) Instead of CHANGING, he is more or less REVEALED. He starts out LOOKING one way, but after a closer look, he is something TOTALLY different.

 

How about this for changing? Why don't Vance and Rip build their OWN Furies? Why don't

they do something for themselves instead of looking to take what T.C. has spent his life

building from scratch? But, no, they are hellbent on getting the Furies.

 

HA! Now THAT would be a WHOLE other movie wouldn?t it? And if these two characters were as BLACK AND WHITE as you seem to want them to be, I think it would have GONE that way. (HA, take that you GREY person! )

 

So do you believe, if T.C. had lived, he was going to be the content grandpa who was okay

with answering to Rip and Vance? He was willing to sacrifice power and control? I just

don't believe it.

 

I don?t believe that either. But TC DIDN?T live. And he KNEW he was going to die. That is why he said what he did. He likely would have given them a ?devil of a time? if he had NOT died. (And PS: did you notice that even when he dies he is STILL bragging about HIMSELF. He really didn?t change much AFTER all did he? Ha.)

 

You think the war has ended but I think only a battle has ended.

 

I never said I thought the ?war? was over.But I DO think the war was "DIFFERENT" by the end of the movie. I think Vance had a LOT different perspective on TC and on Rip as well. And she was also more her ?own person? now and LESS like TC. And I think she was ready to love Rip by then. And I think Rip knew that now he had her with her eyes OPEN. And that was what was going to make the difference in their relationship.

 

And I still maintain that by this time, NEITHER of them hated TC anymore.

 

And I think T.C.'s standing with Vance will sharply increase in death. His faults will disappear and Rip's will be magnified.

 

I think at times it will go both ways. I am sure there will be times when those comparisons get

made. But I think overall, Vance will try to take what was good about TC and forget the rest because Juan and Flo will be in her memory too. And that is not likely to go away just because TC died. All Vance has to do to be REALISTIC about TC will be to remember them. And she will get brought back down to earth in a jiffy. Again I say, she is NOT the same old Vance.

 

I hope others come to watch the film and then read our words.

 

I hope others come to watch the film and are able to stay AWAKE long enough to read our words HA! Speaking only for myself this has turned into one of the LONGEST rambles I can remember. But it really has been a fun one.

 

Thanks again Grey Guy. It has been a really great ?RAMBLE RUMBLE? ha. I have appreciated the way you have kept me on my toes!

 

(PS Ms Favell) You say that T.C. was a giver, but I see him more as an "indian giver". (what a terrible phrase) - He promised Vance The Furies, but was willing to let it slip away to Flo at the drop of a hat. He gave Vance jewels, but that was more about his ABILITY to give than about true giving. This is a weak argument to me.

 

WOO HOO!! I will make a seat for you in my little boat any time you are ready!!! Ha.

 

(PS Miss G:) Vance would have hated her just as much if not MORE, just

as she'd deeply resent any woman coming between her and T.C. and The Furies. So

poor Flo might have gotten stuck with the scissors regardless of how she handled

her, ha!!

 

THAT is an excellent point. And I agree with you too about how she might have come to resent her own mother as well.

 

This all goes back to the point I have tried so poorly to make all along. If it were not for RIP coming along, Vance would have stayed a THOROUGHLY unlikable and SPOILED brat. But his influence on her and the situations that came about that he had a part in (along w/ what happened to Juan) caused her to change a great deal by the end of things. (HA. I just had to get that in there ONE MORE TIME!)

 

(PS MOVIEMANChris) I am not nearly enamored with TC as much as the rest of you. He picked Flo and I don't care for her. She is pretty much just using TC. She may like him but she could have company of anybody if that were all. He won't stand up to his daughter. He hanged (hung?) Juan. It was bad enough he burned out the others

 

WOO HOO again. I am making some MORE room in my boat for YOU too!! Ha.

 

(PS Ms G) : People love to magnify the "legend" of men like that and Vance, because she fancies herself so like T.C, would do all she could to contribute to that myth-making

 

Now I think you do have a point. But I think she will do this much the same as Ranse did (or better still, the way the Duke did in Ft Apache) She will know the REAL truth behind the legend. And that will make her want to keep father?s memory looking much BETTER than he really was.

 

(And PSS: EVERYBODY) *I heard someone shiftless finally got around to watching Hondo*

 

YEE HAW! Finally a GOOD good guy! Ha.

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[movieman1957]

How are your fingers this morning? That may be the longest post on record here. However, for all its length it is a great read. Just when you think there isn't much more to be said you come along with a gem like this.

 

I'm glad there is room in your boat. I have a real problem with a father that would exact revenge on his daughter. Even if he has a change of heart he doesn't ever come clean about it.

 

Gray characters abound as you say. That is kind of a primary layer of Mann films. Well, at least his westerns.

[HollywoodGolightly]

*Gray characters abound as you say. That is kind of a primary layer of Mann films. Well, at least his westerns.*

 

I agree, and I would say that even in some of his epic films, as well.

 

There is a wonderful bit in the DVD audio commentary, where Jim Kitses explains how Mann was always fascinated with certain subjects and themes, such as things having to do with a grandiose ruler (someone like T.C. in The Furies for example) or warrior figure, someone with mixed motivations and whose actions are not easily classified as good or bad, and he didn't get to explore those more fully until he got into the epic stage of his career.

 

I can definitely see the connection there, and T.C. is one of my favorite characters in all of Mann's films (well, him and Vance, too!).

[MissGoddess]

This ding dang board!

 

Anyway, beautiful rambling rebuttal Miss Peacemaker! And your boat is

getting croweded (and you know what can happen so put on your "Mae Wests"!

You can borrow CinemAva's).

 

Like Chris, I think this has turned out to be one of the best discussions,

at least since Shane (and in some ways it's better than that one, or at

least more exciting because we have a "showdown", ha! ).

 

(And PSS: EVERYBODY) I heard someone shiftless finally got around to watching Hondo

YEE HAW! Finally a GOOD good guy! Ha.

 

50 will get you $250 that he didn't like Hondo as much as T.C.!

[JackFavell]

Masterful. Just tippy tops in ramblin' Miss Kathy. I am in awe..... you are the King of the Furies.......

[rohanaka]

How are your fingers this morning?

 

HA.... what fingers?? I think after all that I am just down to little nubs! :-)

 

You know me... I'm just one big "blabber mouth". But again, it was a lot of fun coming up w/ all this stuff. And I have to agree with you and everyone else. This movie sure produced one of our more memorable gab sessions. I have to say though that I am more or less RAMBLED out now. (I know.. the moment you all have been HOPING for. ha. She is finally going to SHUT UP!! ha.)

 

Fact of the matter is... I am not so much RAMBLED out as I am WORN out.. ha. I have stayed up WAY to late with all my chattering on and on more than a few times with this one and NOW I am a "bleary eyed mess" ha. The QT and I are going out to dinner tonight and I fear now I will fall asleep in my Fettucini Alfredo!! ha. :-)

 

So I think I have more or less blabbered on about as far as I can go here, so I will give the last "word" on this to the rest of you.... especially the GREY (yet as we have all found out NOT so Grey) Guy. HA!

 

PS Ms Favell: you are the King of the Furies

 

HA. No, but I AM Queen of the "blah blah blah blah blah" (in case you folks hadn't already figured it out yet.) But thanks. :-)

 

PS April: ding dang !

 

Ha. That can be our new "catch phrase!

 

And your boat is getting croweded

 

Ha... Maybe I will have to start quoting lines from "JAWS"

 

We're gonna need a bigger boat! (Especially if that great GREY shark starts circling the water!) ha

 

50 will get you $250 that he didn't like Hondo as much as T.C.!

 

Oh I can't bet against THAT. But at least THIS time I won't be so ALONE in my love for the leading man!! ha. :-)

 

Thanks again, my friends. You make the rambling fun! :-)

[JackFavell]

I better run out and get Hondo..... I am having a devil of a time keeping up with you quick draws....

[movieman1957]

This one probably deserved its own thread but by the time we get into it it is too late. I already have a copy of "Hondo" so whenever everyone is ready.....

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> This one probably deserved its own thread but by the time we get into it it is too late. I already have a copy of "Hondo" so whenever everyone is ready.....

 

Always a quick draw, huh?

[rohanaka]

Hmmmm...

 

Not a peep out of the Grey Dude...

 

I hope he is not out roaming the countryside gathering up TC's to come back here and try and ruin me.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=rohanaka wrote:}{quote}

> Hmmmm...

>

> Not a peep out of the Grey Dude...

>

> I hope he is not out roaming the countryside gathering up TC's to come back here and try and ruin me.

 

Lol!! It's always suspicious when he's this quiet....

[FrankGrimes]

Not a peep out of the Grey Dude...

 

I hope he is not out roaming the countryside gathering up TC's to come back here and

try and ruin me.

 

Well, yes, me and Mr. Scratch were having a lovely chat.

 

I'll see what I can come up with for you later tonight.

[MissGoddess]

Wow, Miss Peacemaker, I don't blame you for being quiet. Who could answer

such a stirring rebuttal like Shiftless wrote? It must be stunned silence.

[FrankGrimes]

LEGAL TENDER SPOILERS

 

My DEAR Grey Dude:

 

This is not going to go well at all. Where did you put the scissors?!

 

Howdy.

 

(I swear, if that FLO had said ?My Dear? one more time, I was going to go get a pair

of scissors MYSELF! Ha.)

 

Ohhh, my dear. Don't you know I say it because I care so deeply about your feelings, my

dear? I think Europe would do you a lot of good, my dear. I envy you, my dear. I wish

I were going, my dear.

 

After Vance has her SCISSOR fit and runs off to the Herrera?s THIS is YOUR guy and

his response:

 

Revenge. Hateful revenge.

 

TC was out for revenge. He meant to make her pay.

 

Exactly. He took a toy away from her.

 

And he had LITTLE thought about the ?after effects? of his actions. And you COULD

say that Vance was the same way when she threw the scissors, and you?d be right.

EXCEPT that she threw them at FLO (not her own flesh and blood, not someone

she LOVED.) Who KNEW what might have happened when TC set off after Vance that

night? She might have been SERIOUSLY injured, or maybe even have been killed, but

TC had NO worry over that at all. He?d think about THAT later. (As a parent, all I can

say is, this offends my ?MOM-O-METER? in the worlds worst way)

 

If T.C. wanted to kill Vance, he could have. He didn't. The entire Flo incident is "an eye

for an eye," hence the scissors to the eye.

 

All that mattered to him was getting HER back for what she?d just done. Even if you

argue that at SOME point TC?s focus shifted from getting back at HER to taking care

of the Herrera?s, he STILL had little thought as to her safety and welfare. He was mad,

he had had enough, and he was out to get back at her any way he could.

 

All true. And Vance embarks on doing the same against T.C. because he took something

away from her. What I find interesting is that T.C. actually cared about Flo so much as to

say, "I don't care if she is my daughter, she did wrong." Flesh and blood can only go so

far when the flesh and blood is out to hurt you. It's not a free pass. If I spit in the face of

my brother every day and a girl who cares about him wipes the spit off his face, who should

my brother care about more? A woman can be loved by her husband more than her father.

 

I'll be honest, if my daughter seriously and purposely harmed the woman I loved, I'd have

quite a bit of anger inside of me, and even some hate.

 

She on the other hand HATED what she thought was going to happen to him. In spite

of everything, she still loved him, and in the end, (though Juan gave the order) she

saved her father?s life. That Herrera Witch was about to drop him where he stood,

(and rightly so) but because of her influence on Juan, TC?s life was spared.

 

And I believe T.C. would do the same. His words to Vance were more about red-hot emotion

than heartfelt.

 

I don't believe Vance "HATED" what was going to happen to him, she was scared he

could be killed. She loves her father more than anyone else, including Rip. And I think

she loves the Furies and the power it brings more than T.C.

 

He had NO thought for anyone but himself, and he lied and went against his word

NUMEROUS times both to her and to the Hererra?s. When he decided to hang Juan,

he allowed El Tigre to give him the ?excuse? to make it all end up looking ?justified? But

we all know the REAL reason he had Juan killed was two fold. 1) to use him as an

example to warn all the OTHER squatters not to come back and 2) (More to the point)

to hurt VANCE (His own flesh and blood, and the woman who just played a MAJOR

role in saving his life.)

 

It was all to get back at Vance for harming Flo. I think it's very important that you don't

overlook Vance's actions against Flo, in front of her father. This is the trigger. And why

did Vance attack Flo in such a serious, aggressive way? Was it for her father? Or was it

for herself? What was her reason?

 

I think it's also important to note that T.C. never kicked the Herrera's off his land despite

the bank's insistence that he do so. He ONLY did this because it was what Vance wanted.

He always gave her what she wanted. Always.

 

So I gotta go with my original statement here. She was MUCH more human than he

was. He was cold blooded and ruthless to the core. For all his ?fun? and boisterous

exterior, his heart was very black.

 

I don't believe so. I actually think he had a heart of gold with Vance. I also felt T.C.'s

reactions to Flo's denying him her money and his turning down Scotty's money to be

very human. And Scotty tells him he stole it from him. He just laughed at that. He

thought it was bright of him. How do you think Vance would have reacted if Rip didn't

give her the money for her scheme?

 

 

 

 

 

I think the reason we have been able to watch the same movie and come down so

COMPLETELY on opposite sides of the fence here is because (drum roll please) In

a LOT of respects, these are some VERY Gray (I mean GREY) characters.

 

Ohh, definitely. Juan is one of the few who is not grey in the film.

 

It would be EASY for us all to agree what the right or the wrong of some of these

situations were if they were spelled out better for us in the characters and their motivations. But all throughout the story you see pretty much ALL of these characters (maybe excluding FLO, but maybe not) behaving in both black and white ways. But because their actions are viewed from a GREY perspective ( as in WAS it wrong or right for Vance and Rip to use the TC?s to pay off TC?) we can all draw our own conclusions about what they did or did not do based on what WE think is the right answer. This is an extremely ?gray? way to look at things. (which for all my ?black and white ways, I gotta confess I have enjoyed for a change) ha.

 

Very nicely put. And this is why I love grey. We are asked to think for ourselves. This

places the honus on us.

 

I think Vance is at a turning point in the story here. She was hurt so badly by Rip that

she is THROWING herself in to being as MUCH like her father as she can. So I agree,

she is VERY harsh here.

 

That's an excellent point. I completely agree with you.

 

At the beginning of things, she WAS strong and harsh as well, but in a ?spoiled rich

girl? sort of way. As the story progressed, and she fell in love with Rip and was then

rejected by him, she took on a different aspect to her ?tough girl? personality. Her

motivation became to be MORE like TC because HE was against Rip and Rip was

now her enemy. She was out to prove that puny Mr. Darrow was not going to get the

better of her and she could be as tough and rough and in charge as anyone (including

her father) She already had a good start on this to begin with just by the way TC had

raised her, but she really threw herself into the role. And so the Vance you are seeing

at this point in the story isn?t really HER so much as it is HER trying her best to be like TC.

 

After giving that order to El Tigre, she goes out to deal with the Hererra?s herself. And

she WANTS to be as tough as she NEEDS to be to do it. So again, who does she

try to be? Not HERSELF, but TC.

 

That's fantastic! I believe you are right about Vance attempting to be like her father at the

outset of the film. I especially liked your highlighting her tough approach with Juan and

then Juan telling her she's just like her father. This causes her to back down. Keep in mind,

T.C. also backs down with Vance. Heck, he even backs down with the Anaheims:

 

 

 

That was very man of him to do. Ol' Poker Face would have lied through his smile.

 

If you notice, Vance is always at her worst when she is acting like her father. And I think

more than anything Vance would LIKE to be as much like TC as possible, but she doesn?t

have it in her. Because she DOES have a more ?human? heart. She even recognizes how

much she needs to have someone out there keeping her in line. (Because TC never

really did, he let her be as free as she wanted to be) That to me shows she understands

that it ISN?T always right to just act any old way you want. TC doesn?t have that sort

of ?self-censorship?.

 

I think Vance just struggles to handle defeat far more than T.C. and this is why she flees

situations. This is the spoiled brat in her that T.C. instilled. He's VERY guilty of doing

that, too. That's all on him. Interestingly, who is Vance going to run to with T.C. and Juan

both gone from her life? You know she's going to need her escape hatch. Although, I'm

of the belief that she'd order Rip off HER Furies when she doesn't get her way. She's now

the boss, not T.C.

 

It?s not about making or ?forcing? someone to love you, or even ?overpowering? another

to make them love you. The way I am meaning the phrase ? to make her his? refers to

what I was saying about how you give your heart to someone else and then it becomes

THEIRS. By way of explanation I will say that when I fell in love with my husband it was

because something I saw in him made me want HIM and no one else. I was drawn to

his spirit and his personality, and his inward qualities. I wanted HIM in my life and no

one else. In that sense, I became HIS. It was a WILFULL choice on MY part to say: (16

yrs ago this very week as a matter of fact) ?I am YOURS. You have me and you are

STUCK with me" (ha) So in that sense, he (or I guess you COULD say instead

?the love I had for him? ) made me HIS. And he would tell you the same about

me. (to quote the scripture, ?My beloved is mine?) And I think JUAN will tell you,

nothing is worse than willingly giving your heart to someone who can never give you

theirs in return. He was HERS in the way I just described above, but she was not

ever going to be able to be HIS (in that respect).

 

You had to pull the sweet card on me, didn't you? Congratulations on your 16th

wedding anniversary! Poor, poor QT.

 

My entire problem with what you originally said stems from the word "make." Juan (or

anyone else) is powerless in that situation. He can only be himself. If that isn't good

enough for Vance, then it just isn't. She is the one who must make that call, not him.

 

In your explanation, it was YOU who MADE the deicision with your husband. He didn't

clobber you over the head. You had to make the call. But I guess it is true that we all

can look to force the issue if we desire to. However, we are still at the mercy of another.

I need to watch The Collector.

 

Am I right in saying you believe it's up to another to make another see you are right for

them? That makes some sense to me. It's like proving your worth. But Juan couldn't

do this with Vance. He had already proven his worth to her, it's just she valued other

qualities in a man. There's no making involved then unless Juan chose to remake

himself.

 

Now I WILL admit that Rip Darrow has a LOT of issues. He is NOT your average

?White Hat?. He DOES tend to REEK of Grayness. (HA!) He is a "business man" and

he DOES like power and money, but he is NO deceiver or ?underhanded? money

grubbing swindler. (as I first thought him to be as the early parts of the story were

playing out.) Though he does go through SOME changes, I have come to think that

he really stays pretty much the same throughout the story. (I know, after me spending

all that time HARPING about it. Let?s all roll our eyes together. HA)

 

I agree! I don't think Rip changes one bit. He's the same from start to finish. He's a

gambler and a businessman, first and foremost. He's out to get his. Does he like Vance?

Ohhh, definitely. He's out to get his.

 

 

When Rip doesn?t show up for ?cake? Vance goes after him. She is bound and

determined she is going to get what she wants. And if she had not gone to him like

that, it is possible that would have been the end of their relationship. But when she

shows up (and starts attacking him by the way, he was rough with her but SHE

started it) he is able to give her a glimpse of who he REALLY is. (And it is not the

fall at her feet puppy she thought he was)

 

That's not true. Rip slaps the taste out of her mouth before she ever says or does

a thing. He completely starts it.

 

 

And so he goes to The Furies and meets up with TC and they have their chat. And

of course it goes very badly. When TC asks Rip if he loves Vance, Rip answers

YES. And I think it is because he DOES love her. No matter what you think about

him, (and we could go back and forth as to his TRUE nature forever) ONE thing I think

you would agree about is that he does NOT seem to be in the habit of LYING, especially

to HER. So for him to make a statement like that, I think it would have to be the

truth. But he is also wise enough to know that at least at THIS point in the story, Vance

is not ready to love HIM.

 

I do believe Rip has feelings for Vance, more than she has for him. Still, I just cannot

commit to saying he loves her. I think he's all about himself and business before Vance.

Does Rip turn down the $50,000? Do you think he took the money ONLY to teach Vance

a lesson?

 

 

"To Endure Till Kingdom Come." Talk about blowhard. And look what he tells T.C.:

 

 

Rip is always looking to protect HIS interests. It's all about the "Darrow Strip" and

"The Legal Tender." Juan was always looking to protect Vance's interests. Vance

doesn't go for that kind of guy, though. She wants the money and power man, not

the poor lover. She's a businesswoman. She's her father's daughter.

 

You know, this entire discussion has helped me to see the father-daughter angle of this

story all the more. Many fathers view their daughter as their princess and they worry

about the wrong man taking them away from them. They fear to see the "Rip Darrow"

show up on their doorstep. Why is it that I sense you and Jackie being T.C.s with your

daughters?

 

TC aims to make her see alright. But he doesn?t want her to see anything but what

he THINKS she should see. He has made Rip out to be a certain way and Rip knows

that no matter WHAT he does, TC will win. (Remember the line earlier about how he

knows when to ?walk away? when he is losing) If he marries Vance (and takes her away

from the Furies) she will come to hate him for coming between her and her father. And

Rip also knows he will NEVER live up to the image she has of TC. And if he walks

away, (and does the noble thing like ?leave the money behind) she will just follow

after him AGAIN. But by taking the money, he more or less gets rid of her (but I mean

that in a good way, ha) and saves his battle for another day. TC more or less put him

in a NO WIN situation. So what does he do (cut his losses and leaves) just like he told

her he?d do. When he came to the house that day, he knew EXACTLY what was going

to happen. He needed to show VANCE that he would NOT be pushed around by her

or TC. And yes, it DID look bad for him when he took the money. But again, consider

what he DID with it later on. He bides his time and waits for Vance to have her eyes

opened about TC. That is the only way they could ever be together. And yes, it was

a gamble for him to do that. It was a big risk. But it is one that paid off in the end.

 

See, I don't think Rip puts the money aside. I believe he starts his bank with the

money. And the only reason Vance ends up with him again was because she

needed him for his money to wreck T.C., so there was a common goal.

 

But I do agree with you about Rip knowing he couldn't be with Vance as she was. I think

the greatest thing Rip does for Vance is help her become her own woman. She never

baked a cake before until he came along. That's a strong female statement. Rip stood

her up, smacked her, and made her cry. These are things her father should have done to her

but never did. It's Rip who teaches Vance these tough lessons. She's not going to get

everything handed to her on a platter. He's not her father. He's not going to spoil her.

 

One of my friends once told me that very early on in his marriage, his wife told him that he's

mowing the lawn wrong. She said it's not how her father does it. You don't want to tell

your spouse things like that.

 

Another thing that struck me too this time around with my screencaps was the way it

almost seemed like Rip is going out of his way to establish HIMSELF in the community

by making everyone compare him to TC. Look at what he has named his

place: THE LEGAL TENDER. He is almost mocking TC?s ?Illegal? tender with the

name. Could he also be trying to show the townsfolk that HE is the one who will

play things above board when it comes time to do business? EVERYBODY was

sick and tired of getting paid with TC?s. Rip is saying, ?Look, I am the one around

here with REAL money?.

 

Rip was definitely taking a shot at T.C. with his "The Legal Tender" saloon. Of course,

where does he get this real money from to start his bank?

 

YOU are such a CRACK up. I will go sick REGGIE on you at any moment. HA. And

PS: I think I come down somewhere in the MIDDLE with Tom Doniphon. He may not

have BEEN a ?pompous condescending blah blah blah, but at the beginning (especially

with Ranse) he was acting like one. (Ha, how?s THAT for a diplomatic answer) Ha.

 

Grey! We'll have to analyze ol' Doniphon one of these days. Fordy Guns will hang me ten

times over. I won't even make it to a boat.

 

NO. (NOW you are being a SMART MOUTH) ha. Why should they NOT have done

what they did?? TC deserved EVERYTHING he got (maybe even WORSE than he got)

I don?t have any problem with them beating him at his own game.

 

Let?s face it. TOO Much water was ?FLO-ing? under the bridge for Vance and TC to go

back to being the way they were. She had ALWAYS idolized her father and it had

made her blind to his REAL nature (which for all of its charm was VERY flawed) She

got a GOOD LONG LOOK at his clay feet and things were NEVER going to be the

same for the two of them after that.

 

True, the plan she came up with to take The Furies away from him was made while

she was VERY angry at him and more or less hated his guts. But she also KNEW

that if she did not get The Furies, TC would lose it (either to Flo or to the bank) I have

a screencap but I am too lazy (or is it UTTERLY EXHAUSTED, ha) to go look it up)

where Rip and she discuss this at the outset of their plans. They BOTH know TC is

going to lose The Furies one way or another if things don't change. Once she got

over all that hate, what choice did she really have left? She still saw this as her

best chance to get The Furies from TC (and/or keep it from going to FLO or the

bank) only now it would be a ?hollow? victory for her because she no longer HATED

TC but she also no longer had the ?idol? she'd made of him to look up to the way

she always had in the past. I don?t think she felt she had any real alternative but

to go through with it.

 

And as for Rip, I am sure he was in it for the money and the power. I didn't mean to

imply he was "sterling" in his reasons. But I also think he was in it for HER too. And

I think he was LONG over using his HATE for TC as a reason to do anything. So by

the end of it all, they both had their reasons for following through with it. Maybe they

were not ?high and lofty? reasons, but they were still valid reasons more or less.

They still got what they wanted in the end, the bottom line.

 

I still think Vance idolizes T.C. at the end. All she had to do was be around him again and

she'd find this out. It's the same with T.C. with Vance. He loves his daughter and is very

proud of her despite her sticking him in the back, more or less, hanging him.

 

My problem is that Vance and Rip end up with the Furies and that is what they set out to

do in the first place. Instead of building a life of their own and saying, "you know, the Furies

doesn't mean a damn to me anymore," they choose to pull the rug out from under T.C. Sure, they did it legal, just as he killed Rip's father "fair and square." I really don't have any

sympathy for T.C. in losing his Furies. But I also don't see any great big change

in Vance and Rip. They still did what they did and got what they wanted. They went

through with it.

 

If after burning down your house I told you how I had some regrets toward so doing before I

lit the matches, would you feel any better about my STILL burning down your house? The

bottom line is that I still did it, no matter what I felt, before and after. Vance and Rip did

what they set out to do. They are bottom-liners.

 

But, you are RIGHT, they still may love each other because the word "love" is present in

a love/hate relationship. I guess it's just not how I feel love is to be. I'm more like Juan, I

believe in unconditional love. Vance and Rip are conditional lovers to me. I'm not saying

one is right and the other wrong, either.

 

Do you know what movie I was reminded of with Vance and Rip's buying of the Furies?

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. No, just kidding. It reminded me of this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Quiet Man! This is yet another terrific father/daughter film. Mary Kate also has

her dowry. Sean doesn't give a hoot about it. He has his own money and all he cares to

do is love his Mary Kate. So is it about the dowry with Mary Kate? No. She just wants

to know Sean will stand up for her, take her cause. She needs to know this before she

can fully commit all of her love to him. So they burn the money... together, thus cementing

their love for one another. They love each other more than money and possessions. Vance

and Rip ain't burnin' their possessions. They didn't toss the Furies aside and start life anew

with love on their mind and in their heart.

 

I think Vance says it best:

 

 

I have absolutely, completely, throroughly enjoyed all of this discussion with you, Quiet Gal.

I have loved every moment of it, most especially reading your OWN thoughts and

feelings. They have been fantastic. I think you have presented brilliant reasons for what

you believe. Excellent stuff.

[MissGoddess]

These conversations are why I am addicted to this board!

 

Although I would like to know...

 

I need to watch The Collector

 

...what in blue blazes does that have to do with the price of pork?!

 

P.S. I love the screencaps of TC...you touched on some

of my favorite moments. he was so "big" yes and you sure

knew when he was in the room but then Huston could hand you

these quiet, flat moments when the old GREY man ain't what he used

to be. He's at low ebb. What a remarkably rich and varied

performance!

 

P.S.S. Hanged ten times over and filled full of enough lead

to sink your little boat.

 

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

 

Message was edited by: MissGoddess

[movieman1957]

>I have absolutely, completely, throroughly enjoyed all of this discussion with you, Quiet Gal.

>I have loved every moment of it, most especially reading your OWN thoughts and

>feelings. They have been fantastic. I think you have presented brilliant reasons for what

>you believe. Excellent stuff.

 

I too have really enjoyed this discussion. I have learned more than i thought I could see in a film. Thanks to all who played along.

 

The only difficulty with these ramblings is finding a particular movie easy enough when we want to go back and read them. The next time I watch any of what has gone before I'll be in this thread first. The "Rambling" threads are the most enjoyable for me. Lord knows I learn a lot.

[JackFavell]

_Fantastic_ rambles, both of you.

 

Do you know what movie I was reminded of with Vance and Rip's buying of the Furies?

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. No, just kidding. It reminded me of this:

 

Ohhh! Thank you....that scene from TQM was niggling at the back of my mind during this discussion, but it must've stayed in my subconscious...... I am so glad you posted it!

 

Why is it that I sense you and Jackie being T.C.s with your daughters?

 

You may be right, Grimes. But we're gonna have to hang you anyway..... get the rope, Peacemaker.....

[rohanaka]

Well look at you, Grey Guy....

 

Another fine job, sir. (And that goes for everyone else as well) It's been fun. A GREAT gab session to be sure.

 

You all hit on a LOT of fine points and made it a challenge for me to feel like I could keep my little boat a floatin' from time to time.... But it was a "friendly" rumble ramble and THAT is something I always enjoy.

 

And I won't go back down all those LONG twisty, winding, curvy, roads again (re: Vance, Rip, and TC) because as you said MY DEAR Grey friend... on some of this stuff we are just going to have to "agree to disagree". :-)

 

And besides, I can live with you being just plain WRONG about all this if YOU can! HA!!!!!!!

 

Instead, I will just take a moment and bring up a few "highlights", (because I did promise to give you the last word....)

 

You had to pull the sweet card on me, didn't you? Poor, poor QT.

 

Ha... it WAS a "no hold's barred" kinda fight... I figured I'd go "sweet" for a change.. ha. And THANKS for the wishes... And yes.... POOR POOR QT. ha. (he has had a LOT to put up w/ all these years... ha)

 

And PS... I had someone ask me about this the otherday, so... for those who may be reading this that don't already know... It is a LONG time since I last explained that "nickname" for my BELOVED husband.. "QT" is just a "short spelling" for CUTIE (And he IS a cutie, by the way... but I digress. Ha.)

 

Why is it that I sense you and Jackie being T.C.s with your daughters

 

Well.. I don't know how much like TC I am.... but SHE can be VERY Vance-ish sometimes with her little hands on her hips. Ha... Of course... that will just get her in trouble... and she has been known to "do time" in her room for it on more than one occasion.

 

But I have to hide my smile when I send her there though... because it is TOO cute the way she does it...(Yet NOT to be tolerated.... hence.... the "time out". After all, I don't want to raise a "Scissors ****" HA!)

 

Am I right in saying you believe it's up to another to make another see you are right for

them?

 

No. I think that is where we went wrong here... I did not mean it in that sort of LITERAL sense. I merely meant that "he made me his" because I willfully chose to love him based on the things I saw in him (his personal qualities, spirit, general attibutes, etc, etc). I basically was just using a figure of speech (sort of like saying "he captured my heart) It is just an expression. But I meant it to say more or less the same as you have here... To truly love someone is a willful choice by the person who falls in love. And I I totally agree with you that one person cannot MAKE someone else love them.

 

If after burning down your house I told you how I had some regrets toward so doing before I

lit the matches, would you feel any better about my STILL burning down your house? The

bottom line is that I still did it, no matter what I felt, before and after. Vance and Rip did

what they set out to do. They are bottom-liners.

 

Well... I wont' go back down the argument road here.. but I will just add that I can't compare what they did to a criminal act (like your example) And again... I don't hold it against them for succeeding because I still don't think it was WRONG for them to... but I guess that is what happens when GREY rules the day. HA!

 

And PS... after all this back and forth rumble rambling... I am coming over to your house and taking away all your matches... Ha. I like my little house.... it is not fancy... but it keeps the rain off my head.. ha.

 

Do you know what movie I was reminded of with Vance and Rip's buying of the Furies?

 

Oh sure... try to get on my GOOD side by posting screencaps of the GREATEST FILM IN MOVIE HISTORY!!! ha. (And look at you... again w/ the fire... You are like a walking talking episode of CSI waiting to happen.... I'll be by to pick up those matches any moment now. Ha)

 

I have absolutely, completely, throroughly enjoyed all of this discussion with you, Quiet Gal.

I have loved every moment of it, most especially reading your OWN thoughts and

feelings. They have been fantastic. I think you have presented brilliant reasons for what

you believe. Excellent stuff.

 

Right back at you Mr. Grey... you have been doing such a fine job w/ all this rambling lately... my poor little frozen rope collection is starting to gather dust....

 

My thanks to you, and our other "Rumble Ramblers". I look forward to our next "blab" session. :-)

 

Message was edited by: rohanaka

[HollywoodGolightly]

> {quote:title=movieman1957 wrote:}{quote}

> I too have really enjoyed this discussion. I have learned more than i thought I could see in a film. Thanks to all who played along.

>

> The only difficulty with these ramblings is finding a particular movie easy enough when we want to go back and read them. The next time I watch any of what has gone before I'll be in this thread first. The "Rambling" threads are the most enjoyable for me. Lord knows I learn a lot.

 

I've learned a lot too from all of the ramblings I have read so far, it's fun to take an in-depth look at these movies because the best ones have so many layers of meaning and little details, themes, motifs, etc. that are so easy to miss the first few times you watch them.

[JackFavell]

While there's a break in the discussion, has anyone seen this commercial?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf89N1_uz_A

[MissGoddess]

Oh my goodness! What a funny commercial! I had to forward it to some friends!

[FrankGrimes]

You have friends?

[HollywoodGolightly]

A funny commercial. Those chinchillas are cute.

[molo14]

Ha! That was great! I hadn't seen that on television.

[JackFavell]

We used to have a pet chinchilla named Zach, so when this showed up on TV last night, we all came running into the room to watch.....