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Western Movie Rambles


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Don't try to distract us with bikini contests! Are you saying Ford is a great director?

 

When he's not baking "apple pie"! Actually, he's pretty damn good to make "apple pie" rather filling. How many directors can do that?

 

I like that comparison of Grufuyd with Elder Wiggs...and the church goers and Elder Perkins. very nice! If you call Elder Wiggs Wiggy, can I call Elder Perkins Perky?

 

Do you think he'd approve? Bear paws!

 

I think you need a bath... get your mind off the bikinis, Layne.

 

No! I need my fun!

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> I was thinking this over a couple days ago: Hitchcock seemed to focus on the innocent man who is wrongly accused. Ford seemed to focus on how Society accused (judged) others.

>

 

Excellent! And I even see a similarity in how both directors considered the eyes of justice are not always blind, but can be highly subjective.

 

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR THE WRONG MAN (and everyone else)

 

Both Hitchcock and Ford seemed intrigued by how we look at things and that ties in to the forming of judgements. Justice is supposed to be blind, right? To stretch a point, the act of viewing and looking leads directly to forming a judgement, doesn't it? In Hitch, I think he uses the subjective camera more often to guide us into viewing the characters and events in a very specific way that he intends, but it can also emphasize how the characters look at events. An obvious example would be The Wrong Man. Events that _look_ innocent to the man in question (and the audience), are depicted as incriminatory in the eyes of the legal system...even the dialogue underscores this. The Wrong Man takes this scenario to the extreme point that objective facts no longer have any moral weight, but rather it's their interpretation (how they're seen) that can put an end to a man's rights and freedoms.

 

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Ford will also use the way characters themselves look at one another and their environment to form conclusions. The Prisoner of Shark Island prefigures The Wrong Man in concept, showing how the "eyes" of justice were no longer blind, but emotionally distorted. In that time of civil unrest, it's the accused placed on trial in a "kangaroo court" who are blindfolded:

 

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Interestingly, Ford makes a case for a "wrong man" but also puts history's viewpoint on trial within the framework of the movie. We can view the events depicted in The Prisoner of Shark Island in a detached fashion now and wonder how such a scenario could take place, but who is to say how history will view certain tribunals taking place today? In Hitch's version, it's scarier because the tragic events unfold in the cold, calm reality of an metropolitan justice system undisturbed by any state of emergency. You can be convicted by a mercilessly blind system that follows only one line of interpreting the facts.

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Sorry about that one picture that won't show up. I've tried everything I know to fix it/replace it including retaking the same cap and saving under a different name, but some "bug" just won't let it show up in that spot. This was the image which shows here plain enough:

 

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> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Is it because you have a "quotation mark" at the end?

>

 

No, I did with and without them.

 

> Now I need to watch The Prisoner of Shark Island. This was all a trick of yours to make me watch more Ford! Underhanded!

 

Thanks a lot! They're just two examples of judging, both happen to be about "wrongly accused" men at the mercy of the system. Both directors indict the system that allowed the injustices to occur.

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i admit I liked taking a Hitch movie you say you don't like, and which is one of my favorites.

 

:D It's slow, boring, and stripped down, mainly because it lacks humor and pace. It's the mirror opposite of Hitch's take on the "wrong man." That part is fascinating.

 

Thanks a lot! They're just two examples of judging, both happen to be about "wrongly accused" men at the mercy of the system. Both directors indict the system that allowed the injustices to occur.

 

I'll try to watch The Prisoner of Shark Island before I fall asleep tonight. I hope it's less than 90 minutes! Leave it to you to reference a Ford film I haven't seen yet! Just awful!

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> :D It's slow, boring, and stripped down, mainly because it lacks humor and pace. It's the mirror opposite of Hitch's take on the "wrong man." That part is fascinating.

>

 

It sounds like you're saying it's CHERRY PIE!!!! What's wrong with you?! One minute you hate movies that take us out of the grim noiry world you love and the next you're criticizing your favorite director for failing to do this for once!

 

I LOVE The Wrong Man, I love it's pace, which is just like a vice grip slowly closing around your throat...I love the harshness of the way it's photographed, giving it reality. The only false note for me was at the end, I think Fonda poorly handled the scene with Vera. Something about the way he spoke the lines just sounded wrong. The words are tender and pleading but his voice was not. I don't know what went wrong there. But until that moment, it has me in its power and I forget I'm watching a movie. Most of Hitch's movies are very "movie movie" to me, I'm terribly conscious of the artificiality---and I love it! But for once he does the opposite and I love it, too! Brilliant.

 

 

>

> I'll try to watch The Prisoner of Shark Island before I fall asleep tonight. I hope it's less than 90 minutes! Leave it to you to reference a Ford film I haven't seen yet! Just awful!

 

You did a fantastic job of giving an overview of judging in Ford and introduced it with a contrast to Hitch. I just wanted to zero in on specific examples by the two. I don't think I chose the best caps, but both featured "line ups". I'm too tired to write a lot, so I focused on two movies that are specifically about justice and the views of the accused.

 

I don't mean for you to watch another Ford, the caps are from the beginning of the film and aren't really "spoilers". This is the first movie Ford worked with Darryl Zanuck on, by the way.

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> {quote:title=JackFavell wrote:}{quote}

> I've had trouble posting photos here too.

>

 

It's so weird! It's like the screencap was a phantom, refusing to be "exposed"!!! It drove me nearly mad, and it's the "line up" shot that I wanted most to compare to Ford's. Weird.

 

> And I say wow! Nice job comparing the two films... awesome!

 

I don't know about that, but thank you. I haven't taken caps in a while so I guess I just needed to practice. :D Have you ever seen The Prisoner of Shark Island, Jackie? And NO, I'm not asking anyone to. I just noticed it's not as well known yet I think it's an important piece of the "history of America" that Ford depicts throughout his oeuvre, one that begins to do more than just tell a story of events, but to interpret them in a unique context. :)

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It sounds like you're saying it's CHERRY PIE!!!!

 

Far, far from it. Cherry pie is a dessert! To Catch a Thief is a Hitchcock "dessert."

 

I LOVE The Wrong Man, I love it's pace, which is just like a vice grip slowly closing around your throat...I love the harshness of the way it's photographed, giving it reality.

 

There is one segment of film noir that I find terribly boring: docu-noir. The Wrong Man is basically a docu-noir. It's a very UNIQUE Hitch film, but I find it to be boring.

 

Most of Hitch's movies are very "movie movie" to me, I'm terribly conscious of the artificiality---and I love it! But for once he does the opposite and I love it, too! Brilliant.

 

I prefer the artifice of Hitchcock. I love his brand of entertainment, tension, sexuality, and psychology. Hitchcock is an "escapist" director, but he's a sneaky one. He has some hidden messages within all of that artifice. And, boy, is he ever stylish.

 

You did a fantastic job of giving an overview of judging in Ford and introduced it with a contrast to Hitch. I just wanted to zero in on specific examples by the two. I don't think I chose the best caps, but both featured "line ups". I'm too tired to write a lot, so I focused on two movies that are specifically about justice and the views of the accused.

 

But I'm in the dark! I need to watch the film before I get it.

 

I don't mean for you to watch another Ford, the caps are from the beginning of the film and aren't really "spoilers". This is the first movie Ford worked with Darryl Zanuck on, by the way.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're evil, Fran.

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> Far, far from it. Cherry pie is a dessert! To Catch a Thief is a Hitchcock "dessert."

>

 

Make sense. You are criticizing a movie for not having enough cherry pie.

 

> There is one segment of film noir that I find terribly boring: docu-noir. The Wrong Man is basically a docu-noir. It's a very UNIQUE Hitch film, but I find it to be boring.

>

 

I find it fascinating. :P

 

> I prefer the artifice of Hitchcock. I love his brand of entertainment, tension, sexuality, and psychology. Hitchcock is an "escapist" director, but he's a sneaky one. He has some hidden messages within all of that artifice. And, boy, is he ever stylish.

>

 

He is all of that, and a master craftsman. I love his movies, too, and they almost form a separate genre of their own for me.

 

 

> But I'm in the dark! I need to watch the film before I get it.

>

 

Oh, you'll still be in the dark no matter what. :P

 

> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're evil, Fran.

 

You are and I am NOT that person!

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Make sense. You are criticizing a movie for not having enough cherry pie.

 

Yes! It's drab. It's supposed to be drab. It's completely bare. It's supposed to be this.

 

I find it fascinating.

 

So do I! But I find it to be boring.

 

He is all of that, and a master craftsman. I love his movies, too, and they almost form a separate genre of their own for me.

 

That's pretty much how I view Hitchcock. For some reason, I cannot call any of his films "film noir" for this very reason. And The Wrong Man is arguably the most "film noir" of all.

 

Oh, you'll still be in the dark no matter what.

 

I hate it when you're right, Lila. :P

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> Yes! It's drab. It's supposed to be drab. It's completely bare. It's supposed to be this.

>

 

Yes, it's supposed to be...so do you think it would be improved if it had some of his trademark light moments like if Henry seduced the blonde hatcheck girl at the Stork club?

 

> So do I! But I find it to be boring.

>

 

What?! How can something be boring and fascinating?? Oh dear, I don't mean to open that can of worms again...

 

> That's pretty much how I view Hitchcock. For some reason, I cannot call any of his films "film noir" for this very reason. And The Wrong Man is arguably the most "film noir" of all.

>

 

It definitely is noiry to me that's why I am astonished you don't love it. Really, it's a shocker that I should like this movie so much and you hate it.

 

> I hate it when you're right, Lila. :P

 

I'm no Lila!

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Yes, it's supposed to be...so do you think it would be improved if it had some of his trademark light moments like if Henry seduced the blonde hatcheck girl at the Stork club?

 

Is the hatcheck girl Gloria Grahame? :)

 

Hitchcock wanted the horror of The Wrong Man to be "reality." That this is a "true story" and that it can "happen to you" is the scare. Any artifice to be added would dilute what he was going for. The only way Hitch could have "livened" the film up is make Manny (Henry Fonda) more emotional. But that's not the point of the film. Again, Manny is the polar opposite of the all the other wrong men in Hitch. Those men flee, Manny sits. What's more exciting to watch, a man fleeing or one who is sitting? One is more exciting, one is more fascinating. :P

 

What?! How can something be boring and fascinating?? Oh dear, I don't mean to open that can of worms again.

 

The concept of The Wrong Man fascinates me. That Hitchcock would make such a film fascinates me. Police procedural fascinates me, but it's boring to watch.

 

It definitely is noiry to me that's why I am astonished you don't love it. Really, it's a shocker that I should like this movie so much and you hate it.

 

I don't hate it! Yet again, we see a brilliant performance by Henry Fonda. For me, he's the greatest actor of all. I mean actor, not "star." Spencer Tracy is someone who I think rivals him. I believe Tracy "wore" comedy better, but I like Fonda's ability to play darker roles in darker films.

 

I'm no Lila!

 

You're on!

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You and your "strong women"!

 

Well I'm sorry, blame my mother! :D She brought me up teaching me to be strong and i grew up very much appreciating the "strong woman" in movies, especially my old movies, b/c back then, women weren't treated as highly as they are now. That's why I love watching Elizabeth Bennet yelling at Mr. Darcy, b/c you don't expect to see a woman doing that to a man in the regency era. It fascinates me!

 

I want me a weak woman![/b]

 

Then date Grace Kelly! :D

 

The entire film! While the film is a light comedy, its message is very heavy. You've got judgments against what is "morally right" all over the place. A man leaves his wife and daughter, marries a younger "native" girl and has children with her. You also have the religious judging in the film and the call for acceptance of different cultures. Then there's Donovan and Ameilia and their judgments of the other.

 

Okay now i see what you are referring to! i had to think about it, b/c that's not ordinarily what i think of when i watch Donovan's Reef. I think of the playfulness and romance! Now i do always think of the difference of Amelie and Donovan and especially what they want to see each other as being, rather than just accepting their cultures. Amelia has that pride and stuffiness at first, mainly b/c she is overwhelmed with such a different culture than her own and not knowing anyone around her.....yet she makes friends quickly and wantingly learns more about that culture and accepts what she sees and hears. it's understandable. Yet when she sits and has a cuppa with her daddy, they have a bit of boooze with it and she comments on how her great aunts and great uncles would not agree with such a horrid sight of behavior. That scene shows her playfulness, I think and the fact that she can let go of the judging of different cultures around her. She starts to form a love for everything she's rapidly blossoming apart of.

 

I heavily see the "judgment" of her fathers acts, but Amelia never once turned her nose up when she does figure out the secret. She embraces it passionately!......now i actually love it when she criticizes donovan for the way he raises "his" children when she still thought they were his. It was rather funny!

 

Do you see who Ford considers the "Holier than Thous" of society to be?:

 

oh brother!

 

Edited by: butterscotchgreer on Mar 4, 2010 12:27 AM

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Well I'm sorry, blame my mother! She brought me up teaching me to be strong and i grew up very much appreciating the "strong woman" in movies, especially my old movies, b/c back then, women weren't treated as highly as they are now.

 

No! I blame your grandmama! She's ruined you! :P

 

I want me a weak woman!

 

Then date Grace Kelly!

 

Woohoo!

 

Okay now i see what you are referring to! i had to think about it, b/c that's not ordinarily what i think of when i watch Donovan's Reef. I think of the playfulness and romance!

 

You think of the romance in every film!

 

Amelia has that pride and stuffiness at first,

 

That's because this is John Ford and his Pride and Prejudice.

 

mainly b/c she is overwhelmed with such a different culture than her own and not knowing anyone around her.....yet she makes friends quickly and wantingly learns more about that culture and accepts what she sees and hears. it's understandable.

 

She comes to accept it.

 

Yet when she sits and has a cuppa with her daddy, they have a bit of boooze with it and she comments on how her great aunts and great uncles would not agree with such a horrid sight of behavior. That scene shows her playfulness, I think and the fact that she can let go of the judging of different cultures around her. She starts to form a love for everything she's rapidly blossoming apart of.

 

That's right, Ford and his booze. :P This film is loaded with boozin' and brawlin'.

 

I heavily see the "judgment" of her fathers acts, but Amelia never once turned her nose up when she does figure out the secret. She embraces it passionately!......now i actually love it when she criticizes donovan for the way he raises "his" children when she still thought they were his. It was rather funny!

 

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No! I blame your grandmama! She's ruined you!

 

Oh like you're a perfect gentleman around here! Grandmama's gonna wanna spank you! :P

 

Woohoo!

 

i hope you like impassive girls. :D

 

You think of the romance in every film!

 

Do you have an issue with that?

 

I happen to like the romance in every film! That's what makes me feel all mushy inside and comfortable no matter what mood I'm in. I mean, I can't watch Cape Fear when I'm upset! I'll get even more scared! I have to put on....oh let's see....Pride and Prejudice! Yeah that oughta do the trick!

 

That's because this is John Ford and his Pride and Prejudice.

 

John Ford did not make P&P!! For the last time already! He was way more dramatic!...which I happen to love too.

 

She comes to accept it.

 

That's what I said, silly-pants!

 

That's right, Ford and his booze. This film is loaded with boozin' and brawlin'.

 

What's wrong with a father and his daughter having a cuppa...what is it? Rum? I forget. Daddy always let's me have a sip of his wine! There's no harm in that!

 

Your idea of brawlin' and their idea of brawlin' is a bit different!....unless you're Gilhooley, that is! Heehee!

 

He didn't make a human being out of her! He only kissed her....VERY deeply and breathlessly, but that doesn't mean she was stuck up beforehand! She molded him just as much and made him softer....he needed her too!

 

 

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I saw *Prisoner of Shark Island* years ago - in fact I was probably 14 the last time I saw it... but they used to run it on this one channel all the time, and it was one of my favorites. I probably watched it 5 times before I was that age. I had no idea it was a Ford film then, and actually only recently (maybe two years ago) realized it. Now I know why it fascinated me - in an exciting way. :)

 

At this point, though, I can barely remember it, except for a certain feel it had.....

 

I've been meaning to go back and watch it again for a long time. And I know you aren't pushing us to watch.... it's not your style. We want to watch what you write about because you make it sound so interesting, and we trust your thoughtful opinions.

 

Little Boy - let's get this straight. I am far more like Fran that Goddess is. If anyone should get that obnoxious epithet, it should be me. But of course, you already know that. If Goddess really was anything like those characters, you would never say it.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Mar 4, 2010 9:42 AM

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Little Boy - let's get this straight. I am far more like Fran that Goddess is. If anyone should get that obnoxious epithet, it should be me. But of course, you already know that. If Goddess really was anything like those characters, you would never say it.

 

:D

 

She would complain of the draft and demand her wrap. :P

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