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Western Movie Rambles


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> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Howdy, Bad Hat!

>

> Who are you talking to?! This is Layne! I'm wearing a white hat, as always. That should prove, once and for all, that I'm a gentleman.

 

Don't make me spit tea all over my monitor!

 

 

> Maybe I can get to it tonight .

>

> *I hope you do. I really liked it after I first watched it, about five years ago. I rewatched it for the first time just a few days ago, and it was even better the second time because I have a better grasp of classic film, now. I enjoyed the women in the film a lot more, this time.*

 

I'm noticing a lot of movies that get better on the second or more viewings, lately, like The Killers.

 

> *You're gonna get a nice mix of women in the film. They don't dominate the screen, but their moments are powerful. I'm sure you will like Fonda and Inger's scenes. I also liked Henrietta's (Jacqueline Scott) talk to Johnny (James Stewart). And you also get to see Miss G in action! That alone is worth the price of admission.*

 

I do see a resemblance between Inger and MissG.... both beautiful blondes.

 

> I was already getting a feeling from the beginning of the film that it was to be a slow spiral downward for Jimmy Stewart and the rest of the town. It seemed very realistic to me. You think that bad things will just go away if you ignore them. Then you try a little bit here and a little bit there instead of just doing what needs to be done, make excuses for NOT doing anything.....when it comes down to the nitty gritty, you shy away, thinking someone else will take care of it or worse, make excuses for inaction. It's easier to keep spiralling rather than to break out of your torpor and go a different direction that is unknown. That spiral is at least comfortable....

>

> *Geez, that was excellent and you have only seen five minutes of the film. I'm confident you will notice a similarity between Firecreek and...*

 

Is this a test? Why do you never finish your sentences, Charlie Brown? :D

 

> *My favorite scene is the one between Johnny and Whittier (Dean Jagger). Lots of hard truths are spoken in the film. Lots of medicine is being swallowed.*

 

I love Dean Jagger, so I hope he helps the medicine go down.... :)

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Don't make me spit tea all over my monitor!

 

Watch it! That wasn't just your monitor! You're supposed to be a lady!

 

I'm noticing a lot of movies that get better on the second or more viewings, lately, like The Killers.

 

I've been greatly helped by discussions with you and others on this board. It's talking about a film that makes me realize I like a film more than I thought or, sometimes, less so. I recently watched Cluny Brown and The Philadelphia Story for the first time and I ended up liking them more upon reflection which was provoked by discussion.

 

I do see a resemblance between Inger and MissG.... both beautiful blondes.

 

Wrong blonde!

 

Is this a test? Why do you never finish your sentences, Charlie Brown?

 

It's always a test with me. :P

 

I love Dean Jagger, so I hope he helps the medicine go down....

 

He does. You'll like his scenes. It's amazing how many "secondary" characters are given powerful scenes.

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Oh. I thought I missed something. I thought you would really like it. I believe you said you liked Holiday, and somehow the two are always linked in my mind.

 

Discussion here always helps me with movies... with Firecreek, I had a sinking sensation in the pit of my stomach as I was watching it, because I could feel it heading down that path toward letting the bad guys get away with anything they wanted....but now I think I can watch it without feeling sick to my stomach, and it's because of the discussion here. :)

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The beauty of these discussions is that there is always more to a film than one might realize. This is often more so on the first viewing. It is great learning experience and I am always happy when I accidentally bring out something for someone else.

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You are right, mm, it works both ways - the person viewing for the first time might delineate something for the more experienced viewer, as well. This happens a lot to me... I get excited when someone watching for the first time brings up a point I hadn't thought of. Fresh eyes see more clearly sometimes.

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FIRECREEK SPOILED

 

Howdy, Five Dollar Nellie -- Wonderful discussion on FIRECREEK, gentlemen!

 

See! Gentleman!

 

This really struck me on my last viewing, too---especially the prevalence of female

characters of all kinds, something unusual for westerns in general.

 

You are very right about that. This is the last time you will do this, right?

 

I love Arthur. You described him and his dreams beautifully and picked the perfect screencaps. See how the dog is his best "friend" and it shows how tied in he is to the essential, just like children are. He can see into people like kids and animals.

 

That's two in a row. You're over your quota. Arthur is full of childlike innocence since he's basically a boy. And you're right, it's because of this that he sees things with honest, good eyes. I like how he fears the night, just as most any child does. And when he walks in on the rape, it's as if an 8-year-old boy has done so.

 

Arthur wishes to become a man, his own man. He's a "boy" with dreams.

 

I love that about him, he is the only one there with real potential, he could represent what the town could be, in fact, he is the only one that believes in Firecreek or who doesn't see it as a mangy, worthless place. Just as the townspeople gave up on Firecreek and see none of its potential to become a real community, they also view Arthur the same way.

 

That's enough! Stop making sense, right this instant! No more!

 

You're right, Arthur seems to be the one person in town who is hopeful. Yet again, this is due to his being a "child."

 

Firecreek is a ghost town, emotionally so. Lots of "dead people."

 

He thinks he can make his dreams come true there whereas everyone else kind of sees it as a nightmare.

 

Oooohhhh, I like that.

 

Yes, Jimmy is the only one who kind of treats him well.

 

And he actually gives him responsibility, showing some faith and trust in him. He knows Arthur cannot be fully counted on, but at least he's giving him a shot to gain his pride.

 

I just hate what happens to him, it's so horrible. The "Indian" woman is raped and the innocent boy/man is murdered for trying to save her. It's kind of a whole snapshot of society and human history.

 

Sadly true.

 

Great comparison! Louise definitely was channeling her Marnie experience, ha! And Dulcie does look to "take things" from men.

 

Do you mean Dulcie or you, Leah? :P

 

I missed that moment, thank you for pointing it out because that is terrific. I have to say, this is one of the best westerns for showing off female roles.

 

And this is what really stood out to me this time, along with Arthur. When I first watched it, my focus was primarily on Cobb, Larkin, and the gang. That's just the surface stuff. I really ate up the "other" stuff, this time.

 

Though Inger has gone through a lot, she shows how hard that kind of life back then could be on women. Because it is not just that her lover died, but she seems to resent the harshness of her life. I don't know how she got to be so well spoken, though, and seemingly very poised, so much so I wonder why she doesn't move her father and herself out of Firecreek.

 

She's stuck (buried), and she's become comfortable with wallowing in her own mud, just like...

 

firecreek25.jpg

 

Also, I want to know who does her hair.

 

Okay, now we're back to you being you. :P

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Jackie, I really look forward to your take on FIRECREEK, ma'am. And thank

you for even mentioning me in the same sentence as the beautiful, talented

Miss Stevens. I wish!

 

She makes the most of her all too brief scenes, so much emotion, vulnerability

mixed with determination. But so fragile. I guess like Gail Russell, I can't separate

her real life from her reel life. She always seems so sad and hurt.

 

Hello, Stanton :P

 

>

> Howdy, Five Dollar Nellie -- Wonderful discussion on FIRECREEK, gentlemen!

>

> See! Gentleman!

>

 

That doesn't include you, Stan!

 

> That's two in a row. You're over your quota. Arthur is full of childlike innocence since he's basically a boy. And you're right, it's because of this that he sees things with honest, good eyes. I like how he fears the night, just as most any child does. And when he walks in on the rape, it's as if an 8-year-old boy has done so.

>

 

You're right...his reaction is one of innocent bafflement...he can't understand

why or how this could be happening and as a simple hearted person, he

immediately acts to STOP this badness. Children don't stand around making

excuses before they finally decide to act.

 

> Firecreek is a ghost town, emotionally so. Lots of "dead people."

>

 

It is...it looks like a ghost town...I'm amazed people who otherwise seem

rather "together" could let the place they live in get so run down. It externalizes

their having given up on life. Even the dead have prettier graves than Firecreek!

 

> And he actually gives him responsibility, showing some faith and trust in him. He knows Arthur cannot be fully counted on, but at least he's giving him a shot to gain his pride.

>

 

I think treating him like he's a regular, contributing member of the community

is all Arthur needs to be happy. It's all most people need....except people

like Larkin. They need to be "stars". He sort of has a megalomania about

having to be the best and important in the eyes of others. Funny how when

he told that to Inger his character really fell in my estimation, just as he does

in her eyes.

 

>

> Do you mean Dulcie or you, Leah? :P

>

 

I mean Leah, yes. I don't relate to her in ANY way unlike what you think

so I forgot her name.

 

> She's stuck (buried), and she's become comfortable with wallowing in her own mud, just like...

>

 

But she's not a helpless child. She's as "guilty" as any of the others of not

showing enough gumption...until the end. Can you image Katie Scarlett putting

up with a town like that? :D

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Howdy, Mrs. Johnson -- Oh. I thought I missed something. I thought you would really like it. I believe you said you liked Holiday, and somehow the two are always linked in my mind.

 

Yes, I do like Holiday. I like it because it mirrors my own thinking. I think The Philadelphia Story is the better film, and I do like it just a shade more. I didn't after the movie ended. It's been thinking about it and talking about it that has raised its value with me.

 

Discussion here always helps me with movies... with Firecreek, I had a sinking sensation in the pit of my stomach as I was watching it, because I could feel it heading down that path toward letting the bad guys get away with anything they wanted....but now I think I can watch it without feeling sick to my stomach, and it's because of the discussion here.

 

:D Oh, you may still have that sinking sensation, but I'm sure you'll see the good, too.

 

Howdy, Cowboy Chris -- The beauty of these discussions is that there is always more to a film than one might realize. This is often more so on the first viewing. It is great learning experience and I am always happy when I accidentally bring out something for someone else.

 

That's exactly how I feel about it. I like seeing how others take a film. Sometimes it's just as I do, sometimes it's fairly similar, and sometimes it's very different. I find it all fascinating.

 

How do, Five-Dollar Nellie :P -- Hello, Stanton

 

Where's "the Great" part?!

 

See! Gentleman!

 

That doesn't include you, Stan!

 

How could it not?!

 

You're right...his reaction is one of innocent bafflement...he can't understand why or how this could be happening and as a simple hearted person, he immediately acts to STOP this badness. Children don't stand around making excuses before they finally decide to act.

 

But Arthur was frozen. He was in a state of shock, as if he wasn't sure what he was seeing. He just knew Meli was being harmed.

 

It is...it looks like a ghost town...I'm amazed people who otherwise seem rather "together" could let the place they live in get so run down. It externalizes their having given up on life. Even the dead have prettier graves than Firecreek!

 

I really like your "it externalizes their having given up on life." That's definitely it.

 

firecreek26.jpg

 

I think treating him like he's a regular, contributing member of the community is all Arthur needs to be happy. It's all most people need....except people like Larkin. They need to be "stars". He sort of has a megalomania about having to be the best and important in the eyes of others. Funny how when

he told that to Inger his character really fell in my estimation, just as he does in her eyes.

 

Larkin tells her that he needs to "lead." I can understand this feeling. Again, this is attached to male pride.

 

firecreek29.jpg

 

I mean Leah, yes. I don't relate to her in ANY way unlike what you think so I forgot her name.

 

Ha! :P

 

firecreek32.jpg

 

firecreek30.jpg

 

firecreek31.jpg

 

But she's not a helpless child. She's as "guilty" as any of the others of not showing enough gumption...until the end.

 

Oh, definitely. She's pitying herself. She feels trapped, mainly by her own doing. That's usually how it works.

 

Can you image Katie Scarlett putting up with a town like that?

 

:D Scarlett's reflection time is about two seconds!

 

gonewiththewind3.jpg

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Howdy, Stan,

 

>

> How do, Five-Dollar Nellie :P -- Hello, Stanton

>

 

Don't you call me THAT!

 

> Where's "the Great" part?!

>

 

We're still waiting for it to show up.

 

> See! Gentleman!

>

> That doesn't include you, Stan!

>

> How could it not?!

>

 

Wrong question!

 

> But Arthur was frozen. He was in a state of shock, as if he wasn't sure what he was seeing. He just knew Meli was being harmed.

>

 

I know but he didn't take a census before he decided to act, is what I'm saying.

 

> Larkin tells her that he needs to "lead." I can understand this feeling. Again, this is attached to male pride.

>

 

I can understand that, but he took it to a crazy extreme. He was the best...at killing?

 

> Can you image Katie Scarlett putting up with a town like that?

>

> :D Scarlett's reflection time is about two seconds!

>

 

That's how to survive in a town like that! Think about it two seconds...and leave! :P

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Don't you call me THAT!

 

:D I like your dress. :P

 

Where's "the Great" part?!

 

We're still waiting for it to show up.

 

That was great!

 

I know but he didn't take a census before he decided to act, is what I'm saying.

 

Ohhhh, just let it pass. They'll be moving on in the morning. :P

 

I can understand that, but he took it to a crazy extreme. He was the best...at killing?

 

firecreek34.jpg

 

firecreek35.jpg

 

That's how to survive in a town like that! Think about it two seconds...and leave!

 

Build the town up! Make it better! Make it a wonderful place to be.

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>

> :D I like your dress. :P

>

 

I saw it in the window and just had to have it. :P

 

>

> Ohhhh, just let it pass. They'll be moving on in the morning. :P

>

 

Yes, you were born for Firecreek that's plain enough. :P

 

>

> firecreek34.jpg

>

> firecreek35.jpg

>

 

So what do you really think of Larkin, of the character? You think he had a chance to become something better, like Firecreek, or was it too late for him, too?

 

I thought the expression on his face when he saw what Evelyn did was interesting.

 

> Build the town up! Make it better! Make it a wonderful place to be.

 

From Pottersville to Bedford Falls?

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I saw it in the window and just had to have it.

 

I thought so! And I'm sure you used "credit."

 

Yes, you were born for Firecreek that's plain enough.

 

No truer words. It's the one place where I'd fit in. Evelyn and I may get along. :)

 

From Pottersville to Bedford Falls?

 

Very good!

 

So what do you really think of Larkin, of the character? You think he had a chance to become something better, like Firecreek, or was it too late for him, too?

 

Great question. I'd say it was much too late for him. He had already made up his mind. He was set in his ways just as much as the rest. He was his own "Firecreek." He's no "Gay Langland."

 

I thought the expression on his face when he saw what Evelyn did was interesting.

 

Oh, definitely. Betrayal. I think he was stunned that anyone in Firecreek would have the nerve to do it. Then to see who is was. Wow!

 

firecreek36.jpg

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> I thought so! And I'm sure you used "credit."

>

 

No, I just had Mammy sew the curtains. :P

 

> No truer words. It's the one place where I'd fit in. Evelyn and I may get along. :)

>

 

Yes, she'd shoot you first chance!

 

> Great question. I'd say it was much too late for him. He had already made up his mind. He was set in his ways just as much as the rest. He was his own "Firecreek." He's no "Gay Langland."

>

 

When he was talking to Evelyn, I thought maybe he was going to change his ways,

maybe stay with her or else take her away. But he proved to be what he proved to be.

 

> Oh, definitely. Betrayal. I think he was stunned that anyone in Firecreek would have the nerve to do it. Then to see who is was. Wow!

>

 

To be wrong at the moment he's dying, after a lifetime of always thinking he

had everything figured out right...

 

Was five dollars was a lot of money back then?

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No, I just had Mammy sew the curtains.

 

Always getting someone else to do your dirty work!

 

Yes, she'd shoot you first chance!

 

I better get myself a dog. :D

 

When he was talking to Evelyn, I thought maybe he was going to change his ways,

maybe stay with her or else take her away. But he proved to be what he proved to be.

 

I believe he was honest in thinking about and even wanting to stay with Evelyn, but that would have meant a drastic change in his life. He was just as bad as anyone else in Firecreek. He was just as dead.

 

To be wrong at the moment he's dying, after a lifetime of always thinking he

had everything figured out right...

 

That's nicely said. His ending is very similar to Fonda's "Frank" in Once Upon a Time in the West. The difference being Frank was scared and Larkin was not.

 

Was five dollars was a lot of money back then?

 

I would think so. Heck, wasn't five dollars a lot of money back in the 50s?

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> Always getting someone else to do your dirty work!

>

 

Not really. I shoot Yankees myself. :P

 

> I better get myself a dog. :D

>

 

Scooby Doo!

 

> I believe he was honest in thinking about and even wanting to stay with Evelyn, but that would have meant a drastic change in his life. He was just as bad as anyone else in Firecreek. He was just as dead.

>

 

Now that sounds like you think those people couldn't change if they wanted to.

I think some of them, the younger ones, could. Maybe not Dulcie or Dean Jagger

(boy was his character the king of all defeatists! He had more 'scuses than...)

 

> That's nicely said. His ending is very similar to Fonda's "Frank" in Once Upon a Time in the West. The difference being Frank was scared and Larkin was not.

>

 

Yes, I thought Larkin was more the man than Frank, and more interesting.

One thing I could have wished for was less time with his punks and more

time with him. He is out of the picture for a great deal of screen time.

 

> I would think so. Heck, wasn't five dollars a lot of money back in the 50s?

 

It's a lot to me now! :D

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Not really. I shoot Yankees myself.

 

 

 

I better get myself a dog.

 

Scooby Doo!

 

Do you think Scoob would help me with Evelyn?

 

Now that sounds like you think those people couldn't change if they wanted to.

I think some of them, the younger ones, could. Maybe not Dulcie or Dean Jagger

 

I think any of them could change, including Larkin. But change is tough, especially when you feel alone. I believe people help people change. Ironically, I think Larkin won't change because he's not alone.

 

(boy was his character the king of all defeatists! He had more 'scuses than...)

 

Don't you bad-mouth Mad Hat!

 

Yes, I thought Larkin was more the man than Frank, and more interesting.

 

I agree with you. But let's keep that quiet.

 

One thing I could have wished for was less time with his punks and more

time with him. He is out of the picture for a great deal of screen time.

 

That's true. More Larkin and Evelyn would have been wonderful. But I suppose we needed to fear and hate the gang and that had to come from the punks, not Larkin.

 

It's a lot to me now!

 

That's because you're buying all those dresses, Leah! You shouldn't roll in so many barns, then your dresses would last longer. :P

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>

> Do you think Scoob would help me with Evelyn?

>

 

Res, rye rink so!

 

 

> I think any of them could change, including Larkin. But change is tough, especially when you feel alone. I believe people help people change. Ironically, I think Larkin won't change because he's not alone.

>

 

That's well put. He is afraid to look "less" in the eyes of those scurvy minions. How

pitiful. You know, he reminded me of Fonda's Wyatt Earp if he had taken the wrong

road, like Doc. Maybe because you get a glimpse of the kind of man Larkin could

be. He seemed so reasonable about things....

 

> Don't you bad-mouth Mad Hat!

>

 

Oh boy, that's typical, throwing your compadre under the bus! No wonder

he disappears for weeks on end! You make it too hot for him! :D

 

> That's true. More Larkin and Evelyn would have been wonderful. But I suppose we needed to fear and hate the gang and that had to come from the punks, not Larkin.

>

 

Well, they succeeded, there. James Best and Jack Elam are really good actors, by the way.

 

> That's because you're buying all those dresses, Leah! You shouldn't roll in so many barns, then your dresses would last longer. :P

 

I don't know what you're talking about. If it's one thing I'm known for it's for being clean!

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Res, rye rink so!

 

:D Jinkies!

 

That's well put. He is afraid to look "less" in the eyes of those scurvy minions. How

pitiful.

 

Strange as it is, he's "somebody" because of those punks. They provide him with his power and strength. He's weak without them.

 

You know, he reminded me of Fonda's Wyatt Earp if he had taken the wrong

road, like Doc. Maybe because you get a glimpse of the kind of man Larkin could

be. He seemed so reasonable about things....

 

That's an interesting comparison. Larkin is a wise man with a good grasp on people. He could make it in most any kind of line of work, most definitely a sheriff. But does he have the backbone to do it? He's as spineless as the rest, really.

 

Oh boy, that's typical, throwing your compadre under the bus! No wonder

he disappears for weeks on end! You make it too hot for him!

 

I'm not the one burying him! That's you!

 

Well, they succeeded, there. James Best and Jack Elam are really good actors, by the way.

 

Rosco P. Coltrane! Best and Elam were fantastic. I also loved Gary Lockwood. He was pitch-perfect.

 

I don't know what you're talking about. If it's one thing I'm known for it's for being clean!

 

Ha!

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> Strange as it is, he's "somebody" because of those punks. They provide him with his power and strength. He's weak without them.

>

 

That is so sad because I don't think he needs them at all, but it shows what

he's reduced to if that's the case. As grimey as he is, he's still clearly

superior to them. But, in a way, that makes him worse because he knows better.

 

>

> That's an interesting comparison. Larkin is a wise man with a good grasp on people. He could make it in most any kind of line of work, most definitely a sheriff. But does he have the backbone to do it? He's as spineless as the rest, really.

>

 

You think he's spineless? I think he's immoral. I think he has the

backbone but not the convictions to motivate him in the right direction.

 

> I'm not the one burying him! That's you!

>

 

I never even mentioned the gallant gentleman.

 

> Rosco P. Coltrane! Best and Elam were fantastic. I also loved Gary Lockwood. He was pitch-perfect.

>

 

Who's Rosco P. Coltrane? Is Gary the big mouth punk? He was on a lot of "Gunsmoke" episodes wasn't he? He looks like the kind that was always getting shot by Dillon for his big mouth. :D

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That is so sad because I don't think he needs them at all, but it shows what

he's reduced to if that's the case. As grimey as he is, he's still clearly

superior to them. But, in a way, that makes him worse because he knows better.

 

You said it! If you're a leader of punks, what are you really leading? That's pretty much what Evelyn is saying to him. What does he really got in this world? Sure, he hasn't buried himself in one place, but he's still dead. As Evelyn says:

 

firecreek37.jpg

 

firecreek38.jpg

 

You think he's spineless? I think he's immoral. I think he has the

backbone but not the convictions to motivate him in the right direction.

 

Possibly so. But I think it takes courage to change and to face odds that are against you. Larkin seems like the kind of guy who is only brave when the odds are in his favor. It's easy to push around the weak.

 

I never even mentioned the gallant gentleman.

 

You ripped him for his excuses!

 

Who's Rosco P. Coltrane?

 

What?!

 

dukesofhazzard1.jpg

 

Is Gary the big mouth punk? He was on a lot of "Gunsmoke" episodes wasn't he? He looks like the kind that was always getting shot by Dillon for his big mouth.

 

I'm not sure about his being on a lot of Gunsmoke episodes. I'd have to look it up. :P He was strong as the "lead" punk.

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>

> You said it! If you're a leader of punks, what are you really leading? That's pretty much what Evelyn is saying to him. What does he really got in this world? Sure, he hasn't buried himself in one place, but he's still dead. As Evelyn says:

>

 

I love what Evelyn says there. She really nailed it.

 

>

> Possibly so. But I think it takes courage to change and to face odds that are against you. Larkin seems like the kind of guy who is only brave when the odds are in his favor. It's easy to push around the weak.

>

 

Now that I agree with, about it taking courage to face the odds, but I think he had

that or else he couldn't have lasted as long as he did, or speak as perceptively

as he did. It's just that he ended up leading weaklings because as he said,

his kind was on its way out. I think in his prime he was probably not even in

need of any gang, but when we first see him he's not only old but wounded.

 

>

> You ripped him for his excuses!

>

 

I was talking about YOU Mr. Scuse!

 

> Who's Rosco P. Coltrane?

>

> What?!

>

 

I don't know what that's from. He looks overweight.

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Now that I agree with, about it taking courage to face the odds, but I think he had

that or else he couldn't have lasted as long as he did, or speak as perceptively

as he did. It's just that he ended up leading weaklings because as he said,

his kind was on its way out. I think in his prime he was probably not even in

need of any gang, but when we first see him he's not only old but wounded.

 

Okay, you've convinced me. He had courage. I suppose you need some kind of courage in his world. Either that or plain stupidity. As Evelyn tells him, the kind of men he leads "live for the moment." There's nothing to them. That's pretty much Larkin, too.

 

I was talking about YOU Mr. Scuse!

 

Me?! I never use excuses! :P

 

I don't know what that's from. He looks overweight.

 

dukesofhazzard2.jpg

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>

> Okay, you've convinced me. He had courage. I suppose you need some kind of courage in his world. Either that or plain stupidity. As Evelyn tells him, the kind of men he leads "live for the moment." There's nothing to them. That's pretty much Larkin, too.

>

 

He lived for the moment alright, so he should not have been so surprised at

how he ended up...it's not as if he were relying on his future plans to work out, right?

 

> Me?! I never use excuses! :P

>

 

You're a living excuse!

 

I guess that cap was either from a Smokey and the Bandit movie or some awful

TV show trashing Southerners. :P

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