Western Movie Rambles

[Bronxgirl48]

> {quote:title=MissGoddess wrote:}{quote}

> > {quote:title=Bronxgirl48 wrote:}{quote}

> > What exactly was Pappy trying to say in TWO RODE TOGETHER?

>

> Maybe, in his words, "The worst piece of crap I've directed in years."

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HA! I wouldn't be as harsh as himself, but I completely understand....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> While I liked it a little better this time than before, I still find it the least inspired of all his westerns. Barely a single shot that was composed with his customary gifts, it almost looks like anyone had filmed it but him. Even the scenery is unexciting (it wasn't filmed in Monument Valley). Linda Cristal was my favorite in the entire proceedings. Oh, and John Qualen's character was rather moving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe I'll appreciate it more the second time around, and find some subtlety I overlooked. Agree about Qualen.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=fxreyman wrote:}{quote}

> Pappy should have put away his director's chair after Donovan's Reef in 1963.

 

But then we wouldn't have had 7 Women, which I regard very highly and a remarkable film at that stage of his career.

[MissGoddess]

> Maybe I'll appreciate it more the second time around, and find some subtlety I overlooked. Agree about Qualen.

 

You might need a magnifying glass. It didn't help that Ward Bond died at the time

of shooting, which really depressed the director and, I think, affected his energy

toward the picture.

 

Chris/Fred---I haven't rewatched *The Tall T*, but I've seen it quite a few times in

the past year on Encore. It's also my favorite Scott/Boetticher western after

7 Men From Now. I like the themes, how evenly Scott and Boone are

matched...in fact, I'd give a slight edge to Boone, who is, at any rate, more

interesting to watch of the two. Boone also seems to be seriously slumming

in the company he keeps (the two psychotic cowboys). You get so much

backstory on his character, that you long for him to turn the corner and leave

his wickedness behind.

 

I was truly shocked by the incident early in the film, with the child. For a movie

of that time, it was pretty strong even though they don't actually show anything.

Just the fact of it occurring was really disturbing and makes clear what kind of

villains your dealing with. I wonder if Once Upon a Time in the West took from that?

[movieman1957]

>I was truly shocked by the incident early in the film, with the child.

 

I think that in its most basic way tells what kind of people we are going to be watching more than anything else in the rest of the movie. They don't fool around and they mean business.

 

I agree Boone is a more interesting character because as we go there are things that seem normal about him. Once Scott and Boone have their stare-off when they meet at the depot there is a kind of respect for each other. Not necessarily a good respect but for what each is capable of doing. They play mind games throughout the rest of the film.

[clore]

>>I wonder if Once Upon a Time in the West took from that?

 

I wouldn't be surprised. In fact, if you wish to make note the next time you watch it, in THE TALL T, the stage was on its way to the town of Sweetwater.

[MissGoddess]

What a great catch, clore! I never would have noticed the mention of "Sweetwater".

[clore]

I do believe that Leone uses the death of the child for the same reason that Boetticher did. This is to let the audience know that these are very nasty people that we are dealing with.

 

In Boetticher's case it serves another function - the beginning of the film is quite light-hearted. Once we learn of the two deaths, the picture takes a 180 in terms of mood. While Leone keeps his head villain in vicious mode for the rest of the film, despite what Boone presided over at the way station, we almost forget that and find some things that are likable about him.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=clore wrote:}{quote}

> I do believe that Leone uses the death of the child for the same reason that Boetticher did. This is to let the audience know that these are very nasty people that we are dealing with.

>

> In Boetticher's case it serves another function - the beginning of the film is quite light-hearted. Once we learn of the two deaths, the picture takes a 180 in terms of mood. While Leone keeps his head villain in vicious mode for the rest of the film, despite what Boone presided over at the way station, we almost forget that and find some things that are likable about him.

 

Excellent point! Because I do have to remind myself what was perpetrated

back there and that Boone was the engineer of all this tragedy. The man of the mind

with almost no heart, vs. the man of the...land?...of instinct and feeling? For all Boone's

civilized veneer of education, he lives like a savage.

 

Then there's the woman, Maureen O'Sullivan (almost unrecognizable, yet you still see she was a handsome woman, certainly not so bad looking as they make her out to be...and considering how most women out there eventually came to look you wouldn't think those men would be so picky). She has to adjust herself to an entirely unforeseen reverse of circumstance. Rather similar, too, to Claudia Cardinale's situation in Once Upon a Time..., though they be two different kinds of woman.

[wouldbestar]

Bronxgirl and MissGoddess: There is a separate thread for this movie in the forum and after I saw it posted my thoughts and asked some questions about how realistic the theme of the movie was on it. Somebody replied that it was just a movie, not a documentary or something like that. Okay, but I thought it was an honest question which might change my opinion of the film. If you saw a film with Hitler a positive person would you watch no matter how good the acting and production values were? That?s my point? I want to know if this is another movie stereotype that needs to be called out as such. I liked the movie but value accuracy more.

[MissGoddess]

Hi wouldbestar,

I think you have a fascinating question here, but I confess I need some clarification. Are you asking would I watch a movie that sort of whitewashed Hitler? My answer would be "no". But what I'm intrigued about is what your connection is to The Tall T...is it that we're sort of manipulated by the director to feel "sympathy for the devil" in the way Richard Boone is depicted? Because I really don't think the movie's theme is about that. I actually need to watch the movie again to back that up, though. I admit to not having watched it yet with an eye to any kind of deep thematic ideas. I just thought two kinds of men were being depicted, and one was decidedly charismatic and made you...well, "charmed" may be the word. He knew how to zero in on people's weaknesses, their strengths and play on both. Very devilish indeed. Scott's character, in contrast, is unassuming, quiet (he makes Gary Cooper seem loquacious!) but he is magnificent in his cleanness, for lack of a better word. I mean because it would just never enter his mind to think and act as Boone's character does. He is not self-conscious of this, it's just who he is. He's clean, like the desert is clean, and honest the way it makes you face things honestly. Boone comes soiled with the ambivalence of civilization and its cynical questioning of any kind of morality.

 

This is how I see it, anyway. My praises about Boone had more to do with his personal charisma in the role, as a performer, than the character. That's why I brought up the incident with the child, which haunted me throughout. It told me this was a man capable of anything, but I also saw a man who wasted some God-given gifts of mind and courage.

 

Edited by: MissGoddess on Aug 9, 2010 9:34 PM

[movieman1957]

I think Boone is designed to conflict us. At once he is a man who would do something like he did to the child and on the other he is one who wants a ranch and to do something other than he is doing. He is annoyed at the company he must keep so he revels in talking to Scott. It is a depth his partners can't give him.

 

There is also a scene where Boone takes O'Sullivan her breakfast and lays it next to her while she sleeps and then gently pulls the blanket up on her. It seems as if he is a little regretful that she got caught up in this because she was not the original target.

 

Boone, I think, is the more interesting character. Scott is good but he is Scott. His congeniality at the beginning belies his toughness later but the character is not as varied as Boone's. Nothing wrong with that.

[fredbaetz]

SPOILER****SPOILER***SPOILER***

The Boone character draws you into him as does most good { read "evil" } villians. When he complains to Scott's character about his two killer boys, that they can't help the way they are, he seems to be making excuses for his own lack of morality.I think he sees in Scott the man he would like to be but never can and he knows it. He talks of getting his own spread as Scott has done, but he never will. Boone is a joy to watch. But Scott's quite performance with underlaying emotions of fear, rage, trying to outwit the band of killers. Playing one off the other,especially Skip and Henry. He knows Boone is smarter and there fore more deadly then the other two.The film has one of the best closing lines ever. After all that has happened to her from getting married to robbery turned kidnapping. Discovering your new husband is a coward and is killed, being almost raped and watching the killers gunned down. She already knew he husband married her for Daddy's money. Scott says to her after all is done 'Come on. It's going to be a nice day" And he's right. They're alive and that's all that counts. Plus she traded up in men.....

One more thing regarding this little classic. It is beautifully photographed in color in Lone Pine,Ca....

[movieman1957]

*MORE SPOILERS*

 

The closing line is one of my favorite lines anywhere. I like the way he delivers it. You mention the beauty of the landscape and that is wonderful but in a moment of weirdness it struck me that Scott's outfit matches perfectly the color of the rocks and sand.

 

You are, of course, right about Scott's performance. He must be subtle and on guard the whole time.

 

About O'Sullivan, I've always thought the part to be too whiny but reflecting on it I can understand why she would be. This is a terrifying experience for her. No matter what she thought of him she saw her husband gunned down. She doesn't know enough about Scott, initially, to trust him and after the introduction to the bad guys she, like us, feel they can and will do anything.

 

I really like her willingness to be plain almost to the point of being unattractive here. And she is the right age. However, when Scott grabs her by the hair and plants one on her maybe that changed her own confidence a little. She clings to Scott at the end though.

 

Edited by: movieman1957 on Aug 10, 2010 10:30 AM

[wouldbestar]

Goddess, I was talking about Two Rode Together and how prevalent the practice of Indians kidnapping whites really was. Was this rare or just something we think happened a lot because there are so many frontier movies that it seems that way? Since this is the basis of the film, if it?s an overstatement of fact, I want to be aware of that when I see it again.

 

I have seen The Tall T and Boone?s is more intriguing a character than Scott?s. I keep thinking about what the judge who sentenced Ted Bundy said about how much he could have contributed to society but choose to go the other way. The Boone character was the same but when he kills the father and son, I agree he crosses the line and justice outweighs mercy.

 

I think the woman came out of it stronger and saw herself as more than just plain. Perhaps she found the courage to stand up to her father who seemed not to appreciate her any more than the husband who only wanted her money. I don't know if she had a future with Scott's character but at least she knew one man respected her and wasn't out to exploit her.

 

I have a new appreciation for this movie thanks to all of you which is why I keep on the boards. The grumps might make me bristle but they won?t drive me away.

 

Edited by: wouldbestar on Aug 10, 2010 11:35 PM

[MissGoddess]

Ooooooh.....Two Rode Together! Yes, I think during the peak of the Indian wars there were several abductions, in fact I even read an article recently that listed several accounts that were published in their time. It's not so surprising if you consider that all nations have done the same whenever they came in to take over a foreign land. I believe there was also at one time quite a lucrative business between the territories and Mexico in selling white captives.

 

The character of Quanah Parker in Two Rode Together was a figure in just one such account, perhaps the most famous, being the son of a Comanche Chief (he became a Chief himself) and a white woman surnamed Parker who had been abducted as a little girl.

 

I didn't know that about the judge and Bundy, but I can believe it. What a waste.

 

It's a pleasure having you here!

[Bronxgirl48]

> {quote:title=MissGoddess wrote:}{quote}

> > Maybe I'll appreciate it more the second time around, and find some subtlety I overlooked. Agree about Qualen.

>

> You might need a magnifying glass. It didn't help that Ward Bond died at the time

> of shooting, which really depressed the director and, I think, affected his energy

> toward the picture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too bad, yes, that would have made Ford go off his game. I think I've told you this before, but it just never feels like a John Ford movie to me without Ward Bond.

[Bronxgirl48]

What's wrong with me that I can't get into ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST? This was my third go-round and I vowed I would watch all the way through, but I just couldn't.

[MissGoddess]

I think I've told you this before, but it just never feels like a John Ford movie to me without Ward Bond.

 

He was in so many films, that it almost doesn't feel like a Hollywood movie without him.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=Bronxgirl48 wrote:}{quote}

> What's wrong with me that I can't get into ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST? This was my third go-round and I vowed I would watch all the way through, but I just couldn't.

 

Oh boy, I'm the last person to answer that, HA!!!!

 

I know many disagree, especially Mr. Grimes, but I really think the length is too daunting for such a measured, deliberately paced film. And just to show I can be somewhat fair, I feel the same about Cheyenne Autumn --- either you have a tighter pace or a shorter length, but leisurely pacing and long length are tough to endure, even with the most beautiful cinematography (which both films feature). Now that's my uneducated opinion, which I've no doubt is mistaken.

[FrankGrimes]

For me, the pacing increases the tension and my awareness. Silence draws me in, more. My senses are heightened. Foreplay, if you will.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> For me, the pacing increases the tension and my awareness. Silence draws me in, more. My senses are heightened. Foreplay, if you will.

 

Believe it or not, I think foreign language films accomplish those "silences" more effectively than American ones. I think we place too much emphasis on constant stimulation, when silence can be just as rich in sensation, if not more so.

[FrankGrimes]

Believe it or not, I think foreign language films accomplish those "silences" more effectively than American ones. I think we place too much emphasis on constant stimulation, when silence can be just as rich in sensation, if not more so.

 

I completely agree. American audiences (of today, at least) need others to do the thinking and feeling for them. Silence invites (demands) thought and feeling from the viewer. Americans generally say, "boring." They wish to be manipulated.

 

Once Upon a Time in the West does go to the extreme with the "drawn out," but I eat that up. It's because I'm completely drawn to the story and characters.

 

Ironically, the climax is over in seconds.

[FredCDobbs]

> {quote:title=Bronxgirl48 wrote:}{quote}

> What's wrong with me that I can't get into ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST? This was my third go-round and I vowed I would watch all the way through, but I just couldn't.

 

Oh, jeepers, thank goodness. I thought it was just me.

 

During the first 40 minutes, when the only exciting thing that happens is Jack Elam trying to blow a fly off his chin, I knew it was going to be a boring movie.

[MissGoddess]

> I completely agree. American audiences (of today, at least) need others to do the thinking and feeling for them. Silence invites (demands) thought and feeling from the viewer. Americans generally say, "boring." They wish to be manipulated.

>

 

It's true. Just lately, I've been of that mood myself. My attention span seems to have shrunk.

 

> Once Upon a Time in the West does go to the extreme with the "drawn out," but I eat that up. It's because I'm completely drawn to the story and characters.

>

 

I guess that is key to enjoying the movie. I just don't feel it.

 

> Ironically, the climax is over in seconds.

 

Yes, it was odd.

[FrankGrimes]

It's true. Just lately, I've been of that mood myself. My attention span seems to have shrunk.

 

I tend to be patient and curious.

 

I guess that is key to enjoying the movie. I just don't feel it.

 

When I was first getting into classic film and westerns, those my gender and age loved Once Upon a Time in the West. I fit right in with that group. Then, here on this board, I've noticed older men and most women just don't care for it.

 

It's all about our sensibilities. One's "boring" is another's "engrossing." So goes life.