Western Movie Rambles

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> What flow? There's no flow?!

 

Vance will be happy to hear that! I'm crackin', I'm crackin'....

[FrankGrimes]

Vance will be happy to hear that! I'm crackin', I'm crackin'....

 

I'll meet you at the well.

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Vance will be happy to hear that! I'm crackin', I'm crackin'....

>

> I'll meet you at the well.

 

That's crewel.

[rohanaka]

hope you both get to see it one day, it's a handsome looking film (but I still think Trail of the Lonesome Pine has it beat)

 

THANK you, little lady.. for the reminder on that one. I saw you mention it a while back and FORGOT to check on it.

 

I will try to see if I can find it when I go to look for Canyon Passage... and that will likely be when I go to pick up my copy of The Tall T from the library as soon as it comes in.. OH golly.. ha.. I am thinking I need a score card.. ha. Hope I can find CP and TOTLP... but if not.. hope you folks will chat them up anyway..

 

And re: the Tall T... should be a few more days, but maybe by this time next week at the latest. Go ahead and start whenever you folks have a mind to and I will try to catch up.

[FrankGrimes]

You're first!

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> You're first!

 

I'm not going near any well!

[FrankGrimes]

Okay. If you prefer the cave...

[MissGoddess]

Jump in the river, "FRANK"!

[JackFavell]

Put your blinders on:

 

h2. TALL SPOILERS

 

to come.

[JackFavell]

The Tall T has probably the most perfect, understated closing line, ever:

 

 

And since *The Tall T* ends at the beginning, it's only fitting that this ramble will go backwards, because that is the only way the movie and the characters makes sense to me.

 

As I started rewatching the movie this time, I realized that I had not seen the whole thing the last time it was on TCM. I had come in about 15 minutes late without realizing it - when Scott enters the bull riding contest - this is why the "well" references made no impact on me. Yikes!

 

Anyway, back to the future! Towards the end of the movie I could not understand why Brennan did not make a move sooner, and passed up some great opportunities to get the bad guys. I thought it was *Wagon Master* all over again! But as the theme played out, I realized that Brennan was not able to shoot a man in the back. Each time, he gave the villains a sporting chance, by facing them down. The only time it is spoken about is when Frank Usher mentions it in the final scene.

 

 

The point where the movie became really fascinating to me was in the mirroring of characters - you think Lang shows duality? Boetticher echoes characters all the way through the movie. He does this with all of them, but it is most pronounced with the hero and the villain. Usher is Brennan's twin. However, this is a lot more than just a simple western - Nothing is as simple as that. It should have been called the good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

*Pat Brennan* (the good):

 

Brennan is the only man in the movie who has a sense of morals, and the nerve to back it up. He sees things straight, even when life is unpleasant. There is only one way to live, and that is truthfully, honestly, whether you are on the right side or the wrong side of the law. And it makes no difference if what you see is good or bad, but you must actually see it, and see it for what it is, in order to act. You have to put your money where your mouth is.

 

*Frank Usher* (the bad)

Frank and his gang have blinders on. Frank seems like he knows the score, he can see other folks quite clearly. Is he really bad? On second viewing, I think he is like a lot of us, but I almost think that he is worse than bad, he is dangerous. He is a man with power who refuses to act. His motto is live and let live, or more to the point, live and let die. He deludes himself - thinking he is above his partners. He has big dreams, like Brennan, like Mims, too. But Frank makes excuse after excuse for his behavior. He has allowed the station man and the boy to be killed, and has also allowed them to be buried in the most unceremonious way imaginable. He hangs out with scum, and then berates them. At the end, he tells Brennan that he kept kept him alive at the station, but that is overstating, he did not do it out of kindness, he did it out of selfishness, no matter how you look at it. And even as he uses this excuse to make his getaway, he is aiming to come back and take the money. Only his brain makes him different, and that is so completely wasted. He is the saddest character in the movie for me. I felt sorry for him. Good intentions do not make a good man. As much as I like Richard Boone's character, in the end (where it counts), he is no better than Mims, the man he looked down on, because although he says he has morals, he is not willing to back them up with actions. This is the only good he actually does:

 

 

What a waste.

 

It is implied that Frank had the power to change **** and Billy Jack's behavior, at least by showing them a good example - but he has not done that. He is a sad, useless man, just a _talker_ after all, with dreams he will never attain, and it is only fitting that he should end his life with blinders still in place:

 

 

 

 

*Doretta Mims:* (the ugly)

 

Only Brennan can see Mrs. Mims, and he sees her beauty right from the start. Mrs. Mims deludes herself into thinking she actually loved her husband and that he loved her, because of her great need to be wanted. She is bound by her view of her self, pushed into the role of the plain daughter, then wife, much like Catherine Sloper in *The Heiress*. She sees what she wants to in her husband, because otherwise, life would be unbearable. And yet, when the truth is finally laid out for her, it isn't as bad as she thought, because she already knows the truth, deep down. She is NOT the "old maid" that she thought she saw in the mirror, and she has stronger resources than even she imagined. How you view yourself is important, but how you act is more so. Mrs. Mims needs to learn how to hold her head up - for she too, is honorable, and not only that, she is brave. Is she ugly? Or is she simply surrounded by ugliness?

 

Brennan teaches Mrs. Mims to see, to be ruthlessly honest with herself about both the good and the bad about herself and others. That way they can work together to defeat Frank and his henchman. They live to "see" that beautiful day, together, with their eyes wide open, and she becomes beautiful in the process. We could all learn this lesson - to view ourselves with a little more kindness.

 

*Willard Mims* (the _really_ ugly)

 

I couldn't help wondering if the Coen brothers watched The Tall T about one hundred and eighty times before making the movie *Fargo*. Because this guy:

 

 

reminded me so much of this guy:

 

 

except he didn't have my sympathy as much.

 

Actually, *Fargo* is very much like a Boetticher western....

 

and did anyone else think that Billy Jack would have been better if he had not been a Lee Marvin lookalike?

 

The thing I didn't remember was how really beautiful the film was, though the landscape got bleaker toward the end with the rocks and sand. I really do think Boetticher was the heir to John Ford - he makes these simple westerns that really aren't simple. He makes it all look so easy.

 

 

 

 

 

This shot was a particularly creepy reminder:

 

Frank is dressed in the color of bloody meat, but he has a head-in-the-clouds sky blue scarf on.

 

 

I really loved this movie much more the second time around. It was very emotional in a way I can't explain - I am always shocked that Randolph Scott can move me this way. He seems so stoic, but it really isn't true. He has a lot of emotion, it is just under the surface. It's too bad you can't watch him on a big screen anymore.

 

You think that no one will have you because you bite your lip and hang your head....

 

You're as much woman as any of 'em, a lot more than most, but you've got to realize that if you don't think anything of yourself, how do you expect anyone else will?

 

You can't always sit back and wait for something to happen. Sometimes you've got to ...to walk up and take what you want.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 7, 2010 2:18 PM

[movieman1957]

I can see why Sir Francis was waiting on you. Wonderful essay. This has my favorite line to end a movie. It's not just what he says but more how he says it. It is almost as if a father to a crying child. The underlying truth to is that "We got through and we didn't get hurt." Nothing else really matters at that point.

 

If I can be so brazen as to bring a couple of comment I made a few pages back that might show we are thinking along the same lines of some of this.

 

Re: Frank:

*I think Boone is designed to conflict us. At once he is a man who would do something like he did to the child and on the other he is one who wants a ranch and to do something other than what he is doing. He is annoyed at the company he must keep so he revels in talking to Scott. It is a depth his partners can't give him.*

 

*There is also a scene where Boone takes O'Sullivan her breakfast and lays it next to her while she sleeps and then gently pulls the blanket up on her. It seems as if he is a little regretful that she got caught up in this because she was not the original target.*

 

Re: Mrs. Mims:

*About O'Sullivan, I've always thought the part to be too whiny but reflecting on it I can understand why she would be. This is a terrifying experience for her. No matter what she thought of him she saw her husband gunned down. She doesn't know enough about Scott, initially, to trust him and after the introduction to the bad guys she, like us, feel they can and will do anything.*

 

*I really like her willingness to be plain almost to the point of being unattractive here. And she is the right age. However, when Scott grabs her by the hair and plants one on her maybe that changed her own confidence a little. She clings to Scott at the end though.*

 

You mentioned Boone in his "bloody meat"(?) colored shirt. I had not noticed it but it did hit me that Scott's clothes so perfectly matched the scenery I wondered how deliberate it was. (He even matched his horse early on. )

 

Stepping aside....

[JackFavell]

Oh, don't stop now! That was wonderful!

 

I have to go back and read what you posted - we are definitely seeing things the same way.

 

That scene where he takes Doretta the food just blows me away, because when Boone stands up, you can feel the weight of the world on his back.... all you see is his body, not his face, and it moves me very much to see how stooped he is and almost forlorn. He really didn't want it to come down this way, but he is too weak to stop it. Not in a physical sense, but in a moral one. He will just let things play out - let the two people he feels closest to die because he can't admit he started the ball rolling in the first place. It is too much trouble to try to go against the tide.... inertia will win out.

[movieman1957]

Why did Boone come back? Scott gives him the chance to just go away but he can't. Maybe he won't admit to being beaten. He is no worse off if he goes. He is short two people who he didn't really feel any real relationship with. Where is the strength? Is it coming back to confront Scott or would it have been to just ride off?

[MissGoddess]

That was terrific, Jackie, you've made me appreciate *The Tall T* even more.

 

>

> Anyway, back to the future! Towards the end of the movie I could not understand why Brennan did not make a move sooner, and passed up some great opportunities to get the bad guys. I thought it was *Wagon Master* all over again! But as the theme played out, I realized that Brennan was not able to shoot a man in the back. Each time, he gave the villains a sporting chance, by facing them down. The only time it is spoken about is when Frank Usher mentions it in the final scene.

>

 

I agree with that...and I remember wondering when he was finally going to make a move but each time he could have, it would have either require fighting dirty or perhaps endangering Doretta. He's a cautious man of the west...he can wait for the right time and opportunity. Look how carefully he plans every move, so calculating, it's brilliant. He's really every bit as smart as Frank but infinitely wiser. It bears out what you say about them being mirror images of one another.

 

> However, this is a lot more than just a simple western - Nothing is as simple as that. It should have been called the good, the bad, and the ugly.

>

 

That was great! Especially the "really ugly", ha!

 

I have to admit I despise Mims. I really can't say it's all that much better to marry Doretta for her money (and you can just tell he's going to treat her pretty poorly once they settle down) or Frank's kidnapping and terrorizing her.

 

 

> *Frank Usher* (the bad)

> He is the saddest character in the movie for me. I felt sorry for him. Good intentions do not make a good man. As much as I like Richard Boone's character, in the end (where it counts), he is no better than Mims, the man he looked down on, because although he says he has morals, he is not willing to back them up with actions. This is the only good he actually does:

>

 

Well said. I like how you zeroed in on his self-righteousness, if you will. He was morally weak and made excuses to be sure. It's like he wanted Brennan's respect.

 

Though I still despise Mims more because he had an obligation to his wife and sold her out, whereas she is a stranger to Frank.

 

> It is implied that Frank had the power to change **** and Billy Jack's behavior, at least by showing them a good example - but he has not done that. He is a sad, useless man, just a _talker_ after all, with dreams he will never attain, and it is only fitting that he should end his life with blinders still in place:

>

 

I love that exchange...when Brennan basically tells him "you didn't try" regarding influencing their behavior. Brennan says so little but he put Frank in his place with that one comment.

 

 

>

> Brennan teaches Mrs. Mims to see, to be ruthlessly honest with herself about both the good and the bad about herself and others. That way they can work together to defeat Frank and his henchman. They live to "see" that beautiful day, together, with their eyes wide open, and she becomes beautiful in the process. We could all learn this lesson - to view ourselves with a little more kindness.

>

 

That's beautiful, Jackie. I hadn't thought of it that way. He does force her to confront herself and her situation...in a POSITIVE way. For once, soemone isn't painting her and her situation in bleak, hopeless terms. Everyone who talks about her always talks about her in a very negative way, whether referring to her looks or not. I don't think they'd notice her looks...in fact they'd think she was attractive if she had confidence in herself and showed spirit and humor. Heck, out west she'd be a beauty!

 

> This shot was a particularly creepy reminder:

>

>

 

Oh, yes!! I remember shuddering when I saw that. It's so awful, so awful that scene. It really reminded me of *Once Upon a Time in the West*.

 

 

> Frank is dressed in the color of bloody meat, but he has a head-in-the-clouds sky blue scarf on.

>

 

Great observation! I wasn't paying attention to Frank's clothes I was more taken by how Brennan is dressed in exactly the same colors as his landscape. He really is part and parcel of the western land.

[JackFavell]

Do you think it's greed? he wants the money? That's what I originally thought.When will he ever have a chance at that dream ranch without this money? Or is it that he can't let them go and tell someone where he is?

 

Personally, I almost think it is that same thing that drove him to stay with his partners - inertia - he's been with trash so long that he can't do anything else. He has to go back, it's what he does... he can't help it.

[movieman1957]

I think you are right.

 

MissG:

 

I think in a way what was done here to the boy and his father is worse than "OUATITW." (And for its day probably more shocking.) It's not enough to do that to the boy but then to add the complete disrespect of them both by where they end up seems even more cruel.

 

In a way "OUATITW" explains why "Frank" had to do what he did. Now the boy knows him by name. "The Tall T" probably would base the reasoning on the same principle but the "proper" thing to do is the boy in "West" is likely to get a proper burial. (Not that it entered Frank's mind as much as he couldn't bother to bury the boy or his family.) Boone's decision goes an extra step. We almost can't of anyone being THAT evi

 

(And we both picked up on Scott's clothes. Good for me.)

 

Edited by: movieman1957 on Sep 7, 2010 5:03 PM

[JackFavell]

MissG -

 

I despise Mims too.... in fact, he made my flesh crawl more this time as he started talking, because I knew what he was going to do. ICK! **** really did have him pegged - "A Talker". I liked the stare they all gave him as he started trying to weasel his way out of the situation.

 

I agree that Mims is more despicable than Usher but in the end their actions are almost equally deluded, and so they end up mirroring one another even more than Usher and Brennan. Mims and Usher both abdicate personal responsibility, though Frank is more likable because he is not a WEASEL! And by that I mean, even Frank has a code of honor that he lives by - he would not give up his woman to save himself from death..... although if he were to get a sack of money for her, all bets are off. Frank was an honorable man who had given up on life, and let dishonorable men rule him. So in that way he was weak, but he was not cowardly.

 

I too believe that Frank wanted Brennan to like and respect him. I think he felt a real kinship with Brennan, so that makes it doubly sad that he was unable to escape with his life. It was like he wanted to say to Brennan, "You come and work with me" but knew that Brennan could not do that - they were separated by a wall of morality - and that morality was what made him like Brennan in the first place. My favorite line was the one where Frank asked Brennan if he was scared, and Brennan said, "Yes, I am." and then Frank said "Well you don't lie about it, that's something". He knew Brennan was a rare bird that he could come to be friends with.

[MissGoddess]

> MissG:

>

> I think in a way what was done here to the boy and his father is worse than "OUATITW." (And for its day probably more shocking.) It's not enough to do that to the boy but then to add the complete disrespect of them both by where they end up seems even more cruel.

>

 

Good point, Chris. They added insult upon injury.

 

 

> In a way "OUATITW" explains why "Frank" had to do what he did. Now the boy knows him by name. "The Tall T" probably would base the reasoning on the same principle but the "proper" thing to do is the boy in "West" is likely to get a proper burial. (Not that it entered Frank's mind as much as he couldn't bother to bury the boy or his family.) Boone's decision goes an extra step. We almost can't of anyone being THAT evi

>

 

It is awful. What a travesty. It is what we cannot forget about Frank, what we MUST not forget, lest we start admiring him for his cleverness.

 

And in a way, it is worse of him to let others do his dirty work while he sits by and profits from it. And looks down on his henchmen.

 

> (And we both picked up on Scott's clothes. Good for me.)

>

 

[JackFavell]

> {quote:title=MissGoddess wrote:}{quote}

 

>What a travesty. It is what we cannot forget about Frank, what we MUST not forget, lest we start admiring him for his cleverness.

>

> And in a way, it is worse of him to let others do his dirty work while he sits by and profits from it. And looks down on his henchmen.

 

You are so right - This is absolutely the bottom line - no matter how attractive Frank can make himself... this is what he IS.

 

Do you think Frank (Usher) would have had the memory of the boy's death in his head for all of eternity, or do you think he would have walked away without a thought - if Brennan had not come along to act as a sort of ideal of what he might have been?

 

What I am asking is if you think that Frank had a real conscience, not just regrets? I still am not sure.

 

Edited by: JackFavell on Sep 7, 2010 8:46 PM>

[MissGoddess]

> I despise Mims too.... in fact, he made my flesh crawl more this time as he started talking, because I knew what he was going to do. ICK! **** really did have him pegged - "A Talker". I liked the stare they all gave him as he started trying to weasel his way out of the situation.

>

 

Just as he talked his way into Doretta's life, I bet.

 

> I agree that Mims is more despicable than Usher but in the end their actions are almost equally deluded, and so they end up mirroring one another even more than Usher and Brennan. Mims and Usher both abdicate personal responsibility, though Frank is more likable because he is not a WEASEL! And by that I mean, even Frank has a code of honor that he lives by - he would not give up his woman to save himself from death..... although if he were to get a sack of money for her, all bets are off. Frank was an honorable man who had given up on life, and let dishonorable men rule him. So in that way he was weak, but he was not cowardly.

>

 

Frank was a man and Mims was a, you said it, weasel. Sadly he is also very much a civilized city boy. The new breed.

 

> I too believe that Frank wanted Brennan to like and respect him. I think he felt a real kinship with Brennan, so that makes it doubly sad that he was unable to escape with his life. It was like he wanted to say to Brennan, "You come and work with me" but knew that Brennan could not do that - they were separated by a wall of morality - and that morality was what made him like Brennan in the first place. My favorite line was the one where Frank asked Brennan if he was scared, and Brennan said, "Yes, I am." and then Frank said "Well you don't lie about it, that's something". He knew Brennan was a rare bird that he could come to be friends with.

 

That is perfect...you said it all that I feel about the real strengths of the film. These lay in the relationship between Brennan and Frank. For Frank, it's as if Brennan represented the road not taken, what he could have been.

 

 

> You are so right - This is absolutely the bottom line - no matter how attractive Frank can make himself... this is what he IS.

 

It is and Brennan doesn't pretend he admires Frank though Frank plainly admires him. If there's any shame for him to feel in his life, Brennan would have sparked it but I'm not sure he did.

 

 

> Do you think Frank (Usher) would have had the memory of the boy's death in his head for all of eternity, or do you think he would have walked away without a thought - if Brennan had not come along to act as a sort of ideal of what he might have been?

 

> What I am asking is if you think that Frank had a real conscience, not just regrets? I still am not sure.

 

I can't say that I do. I saw no indication of it. I liked your question about why he came back, it reminded me of Ralls in Wake of the Red Witch and why he stayed down there grabbing the gold when he might have saved himself. I think, like Ralls, maybe Frank just had to know who was tougher, had to know if he could take Brennan. And he'd rather die finding out rather than live a life on the run always saying to himself, "I should have shot that so-and-so when I had the chance."

 

But conscience pangs over the boy? I think he'd gotten long beyond that sadly.

[FrankGrimes]

THE TALL T SPOILED

 

Howdy, Hurrah Gal! -- Now everyone knows why I wait for you. That was exceptional.

 

The Tall T is a highly intelligent western about human nature. Its presentation is fairly simple yet the result is wonderfully deep. I found it similar to Seven Men from Now. Both are terrific watches.

 

Call me dense, but what the heck does the title mean?

 

I really like how you called the film "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." And you framed it wonderfully.

 

I also view the film as strength vs. weakness and how the two can be sometimes confused for the other. Brennan (Randolph Scott) is clearly the strongest character in the film, yet, he admits to be scared and he makes a fool of himself a few times, including bumping his head and...

 

 

Then you got Frank (Richard Boone), **** (Henry Silva), and Billy Jack (Skip Homeier). They've got all the power on their side because they got an arsenal and are crazy enough to use it without remorse. Does this make them strong? Well, all of their weaknesses are used to undo them. In fact, even a Brennan "weakness" almost costs him and Doretta (Maureen O'Sullivan) their lives.

 

Rintoon (Arthur Hunnicutt) was darn near fearless in his approach to challenges, but this also made him foolish. His strength was also his weakness. He's kind of like Stonewall (Elisha Cook, Jr.) in Shane. Just grabbing a gun and firing just isn't the answer. There's got to be some thought.

 

I couldn't help wondering if the Coen brothers watched The Tall T about one hundred and eighty times before making the movie Fargo. Because this guy:

 

What an awesome comparison! That's dead-on!

 

I am always shocked that Randolph Scott can move me this way. He seems so stoic, but it really isn't true. He has a lot of emotion, it is just under the surface.

 

I always think of Randolph Scott as the "blue collar Gary Cooper." Coop is fancy and Scott is plain.

 

But as the theme played out, I realized that Brennan was not able to shoot a man in the back.

 

Fantastic catch.

 

 

Although, there is great irony with that. Billy Jack trust Brennan and this led to the downfall of it all.

 

 

 

So is Doretta the "Charlotte Vale" of westerns?

 

I also got a Man of the West vibe with this film because of Brennan and Doretta being pushed into a "room" with each other and the woman falling for her protector.

 

 

So now we know where Miss G lives!:

 

[movieman1957]

>Call me dense, but what the heck does the title mean?

 

You are not dense at all. Having watched some of the commentary it seems no one else did either. I don't remember what it was going to be called but as I recall even Boetticher didn't know where it came from.

[rohanaka]

Wowsa, Mr. Movieman... see what you started bringing this one up for a ramble???? Ha.. this really looks like a great movie.

 

(PS:Jackie. I LOVED your thoughts in your opening post and I have not even SEEN the movie yet) I am really going to keep all this in mind as I watch... hopefully in the next few days. I am going to check w/ the library Thursday.. (their orders usually come in then) I can see already I have a lot of catching up to do.

[movieman1957]

>Wowsa, Mr. Movieman... see what you started bringing this one up for a ramble????

 

Was that me?

 

Another thing to watch for when you get to see it is pay attention to Scott and Boone when they meet at the depot. They barely stop staring at each other the whole scene. They size each other up less by what they say than how they react to each other. Only once, that I recall, does Scott look away and I think that is at O'Sullivan but it is only for a second.

 

I think this is what gives Boone his respect for Scott. He doesn't flinch. He doesn't look away or drop his head. By continuing to stare at Boone Scott is letting him know this isn't going to be an easy time for him.

[FrankGrimes]