Western Movie Rambles

[movieman1957]

That's funny. I don't really see "The Night Of The Hunter" as a religious film. Lillian Gish is certainly a religious person who lets her faith guide her. For me it's a story about a man posing as a preacher to find something he thinks is owed him. Does his psyche maybe make him think he is along the way? Maybe.

 

"Sgt.York" is another where religion plays an important part but it does in York's life so it is an integral part of the film. It does not overwhelm it. There are explanations for it and the Army is quite sympathetic to York and the recruiting officer does a good job of gently reasoning with him. I certainly wouldn't put it in the same vein as "Hell's Hinges."

[MissGoddess]

But, as I wrote to Jackie, one of my very favorite films is The Night of the Hunter and that is very religious. So I have no idea why that one works so well with me and I struggled with Hell's Hinges religiosity.

 

 

I have the feeling if ol' Reverend had "converted" and changed his ways at the end of NIght of the Hunter you'd hate the film. As he stands, he's one of your "flock".

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Snippy -- I have the feeling if ol' Reverend had "converted" and changed his ways at the end of NIght of the Hunter you'd hate the film. As he stands, he's one of your "flock".

 

Oh, that's for darn sure. But the Reverend is the "Silk Miller" of the film.

 

How do, Cowboy Chris -- That's funny. I don't really see "The Night Of The Hunter" as a religious film. Lillian Gish is certainly a religious person who lets her faith guide her. For me it's a story about a man posing as a preacher to find something he thinks is owed him. Does his psyche maybe make him think he is along the way? Maybe.

 

But how is the Reverend defeated? The film is book-ended with Bible passages, I believe. But I think Snippy hit on it, there isn't an attempt to convert a character or us. We are not being preached to. Still, I find the film to be religious because faith plays a big role. It's throughout the film.

 

"Sgt.York" is another where religion plays an important part but it does in York's life so it is an integral part of the film. It does not overwhelm it. There are explanations for it and the Army is quite sympathetic to York and the recruiting officer does a good job of gently reasoning with him. I certainly wouldn't put it in the same vein as "Hell's Hinges."

 

I may have to give it a watch to see how I feel about it. I don't have a problem with characters being religious or a film taking place in a religious setting or the like. But I do struggle with films that really push a religion on you.

 

For example, Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison is a film that features a very faithful nun. I never once felt that film was preaching to me. But in Hell's Hinges, I really felt it.

[fxreyman]

I agree. York is not a religious film. Although it does show the character engaged in religious thoughts and has the character going to church. It mostly deals with how York thinks of God and the bible and how it relates to killing another human being.

 

The real York also converted after years of drinking and carousing. But the real York was a killing machine during in WWI. At least as far as his real life exploits during the second phase of the ****-Argonne Offensive.

 

I think that Frank should watch this film. It is a very good history lesson with a few inaccuracies thrown in (for Hollywood's sake, as usual).

[MissGoddess]

> {quote:title=FrankGrimes wrote:}{quote}

> Howdy, Snippy -- I have the feeling if ol' Reverend had "converted" and changed his ways at the end of NIght of the Hunter you'd hate the film. As he stands, he's one of your "flock".

>

> Oh, that's for darn sure. But the Reverend is the "Silk Miller" of the film.

>

 

I have to disagree, he is the main character, along with the children. I barely remember "Silk Miller" so I don't see the comparison.

[FrankGrimes]

I have to disagree, he is the main character, along with the children. I barely remember "Silk Miller" so I don't see the comparison.

 

I'm just saying the Reverend is the unapologetic bad guy in the film. Blaze is the hero, not the bad guy. Silk is the unapologetic bad guy in Hell's Hinges. Rachel (Lillian Gish) is actually both Blaze and Faith in The Night of the Hunter. She's the hero but also the one imparting the beliefs of a religion.

[JackFavell]

I do understand your dislike of being preached to, but I also think you are limiting yourself and your film experience - denying yourself some of the movies you think are "too" religious before watching them.

 

Of course, I have denied myself a lot of movies because they have too much Kirk Douglas in them... but I am learning the error of my ways.

[FrankGrimes]

but I also think you are limiting yourself and your film experience - denying yourself some of the movies you think are "too" religious before watching them.

 

But I'll watch anything. It's just a matter of when. I'll have to watch Sergeant York and see if my preconceptions were warranted. I have very low expectations for it because I feel it's going to be too religious. I also don't like war films unless it has an anti-war aspect to it. The one thing I keep going back to is... it's Howard Hawks. How can I not like Hawks? He couldn't just shovel it on me. He's too great a director to do that.

 

Of course, I have denied myself a lot of movies because they have too much Kirk Douglas in them... but I am learning the error of my ways.

 

Paths of Glory!

[movieman1957]

My thought on "York" is that once he is in the Army the religious aspect is not as prominent a part of the picture. He realizes that it is either "them or us." He doesn't like doing it but understands his need to. It is almost a "kill people to save people" situation.

 

Remember the setting here is a very rural Tennessee area so religion is going to play a major part in their lives and the early part of the film does deal with that but I don't find it "preachy" as much as you are watching a man come to terms with his calling from God.

[fxreyman]

I am curious.....

 

What is it with Howard Hawks that you do not like?

 

It couldn't be because he directed the following films, can it?

 

El Dorado

Man's Favorite Sport?

Hatari!

Rio Bravo

Gentlemen Prefer Blondes

Monkey Business

The Big Sky

The Thing from Another World

(uncredited)

Red River

The Big Sleep

To Have and Have Not

Corvette K-225

(uncredited)

The Outlaw

(uncredited)

Air Force

Ball of Fire

Sergeant York

His Girl Friday

Only Angels Have Wings

Bringing Up Baby

Twentieth Century

Scarface

The Dawn Patrol

 

You know by looking at the above list that Howard Hawks was versatile at directing in quite a few different genres: comedies, dramas, gangster films, science fiction, film noir, and Westerns.

I think from what I have read about him that he is the one director who developed the prototype of the post-feminist movement in the "Hawksian" woman archetype. He wasn't sympathetic to feminism, it is just that he projected through his films this ideal that women could be just as strong as men and could have their own way of thinking. And because of this style of allowing women to act like full-fledged characters, women in general became stronger characters in movies afterwards.

 

All you have to do is look at the strong female actors in Bringing Up Baby, Only Angels Have Wings, His Girl Friday, Ball of Fire, To Have and Have Not and The Big Sleep.

 

The other thing about his movies is the way dialogue was used. The screenplay or story was spoken by the actors in a very loose way, more like a conversational way. The way you and I would speak to one another. The dialogue sounded like everyday talking. It was not stilted in anyway, like so many other films from that period. I am always amazed at how the dialogue is spoken at such a fast rate in His Girl Friday.

 

And even though he made some great films, it is a darn shame he never won an Oscar for any of his films. He did however receive a special Oscar in 1975 for his contributions to the film industry.

 

If it wasn't for Olivier winning for Hamlet in 1948, I think Hawks could have won for Red River, although he was not nominated in that category for that film. In fact he was only nominated for Oscar's Best Director once. Can you name that film?

[fxreyman]

I'm Spartacus!

[CineMaven]

Grimesy me boy...I have a question. Would you watch or not-watch "I Confess" b'cuz of the "religious" aspect of things or would you see that the kernel of the story is a man who is a priest wrestling with his conscience about whether to reveal a sacred trust or not? (Religion as Mac-

Guffin. I'm watching the last half-hour of "I Confess" right now...and it prompts this question to

you.

 

Oh yeah...Howard Hawks rules! Foxy...I love your analysis here:

 

"He wasn't sympathetic to feminism, it is just that he projected through his films this ideal that women could be just as strong as men and could have their own way of thinking. And because of this style of allowing women to act like full-fledged characters, women in general became stronger characters in movies afterwards."

 

Very well-put, --Reyman-- Spartacus.

[FrankGrimes]

What is it with Howard Hawks that you do not like?

 

Howard Hawks is my 9th favorite director. I'm a definite Hawks fan. I was saying that Hawks is my great hope for Sergeant York because I can't see him preaching to me. Still, I'm concerned.

 

And I'm a big fan of "Hawksian" women.

 

1. Alfred Hitchcock

2. Fritz Lang

3. F.W. Murnau

4. Anthony Mann

5. Nicholas Ray

6. Robert Wise

7. Otto Preminger

8. John Huston

9. Howard Hawks

10. Jacques Tourneur

[FrankGrimes]

Grimesy me boy...I have a question. Would you watch or not-watch "I Confess" b'cuz of the "religious" aspect of things or would you see that the kernel of the story is a man who is a priest wrestling with his conscience about whether to reveal a sacred trust or not? (Religion as Mac-

Guffin. I'm watching the last half-hour of "I Confess" right now...and it prompts this question to

you.

 

I like I Confess. I like both of the battles within Father Logan. Montgomery Clift delivers a very strong performance and I found Anne Baxter to be sweet.

 

If you'd watch Hell's Hinges, CinemAva, I believe you'd see the difference between the two films. I never feel as if Hitchcock is pushing a religion on me in I Confess... or any of his films. I felt the push with Hell's Hinges.

[rohanaka]

one of my very favorite films is The Night of the Hunter and that is very religious.

 

Funny you should bring up Night of the Hunter, Grey Guy..

 

Mitchum's character is a PERFECT contrast to Gish's (in terms of him having a "said faith" and her's being a "REAL faith". I L-O-V-E love the scene where she is inside w/ her shotgun sitting in the dark in her rocking chair.. and he is outside.. and starts singing "Leaning on the Everlasting Arm" and she sings along too.. BOTH of them were singing the same song.. but from a TOTALLY different point of view.. and for a completely different REASON. Anyway.... to get to my point.. despite "religious" references... and his constant use (or misuse) of scripture, etc... I do not in ANY way view this movie as a "religious" film but there are moments of "faith" in the story.. however NONE of them are on the part of Mitchum's character. But again.. it all comes down to interpretation and point of view, I guess.

 

For the record, one of your very favorite films is Sergeant York and I'm wary to watch it because I feel like it's going to be too religious. And I'm a Howard Hawks fan. Maybe I need to take that challenge and see if my fears are justified or not

 

Well I do not presume to know how much "fear" you should have of it.. but I can say that if you feel THIS film (HH) was too "religious" you will likely have similar feelings about Sgt York. There are numerous moments throughout the film where people are praying.. quoting scripture, and putting their faith to use in real and practical ways. But again.. in no way do I view it as a "sales pitch" for becoming a Christian so much as it is a story.. about a man.. who happened to come to faith and it changed his life.. and then he carried that change in him throughout the rest of the events in the story. I personally think it is a very inspiring story (based at least in part on fact) about one man maintaining his personal integrity and accomplishing an outstanding and truly heroic feat, despite great odds. I hope you will give it a chance someday.. but given the issues you have had w/ HH, I am thinking it is not going to be your "cup o tea" too much.

 

(Oh..ha.. and PS: aside from the religous stuff.. there is at least one scene that has some "good ole' boy" comedic bar room brawling in it too.. ha. And we all know how highly you regard THAT sort of action in a movie too. HA!)

[FrankGrimes]

Howdy, Piecemaker -- Mitchum's character is a PERFECT contrast to Gish's (in terms of him having a "said faith" and her's being a "REAL faith". I L-O-V-E love the scene where she is inside w/ her shotgun sitting in the dark in her rocking chair.. and he is outside.. and starts singing "Leaning on the Everlasting Arm" and she sings along too.. BOTH of them were singing the same song.. but from a TOTALLY different point of view.. and for a completely different REASON.

 

Yes, it's a very powerful scene.

 

Anyway.... to get to my point.. despite "religious" references... and his constant use (or misuse) of scripture, etc... I do not in ANY way view this movie as a "religious" film but there are moments of "faith" in the story.. however NONE of them are on the part of Mitchum's character. But again.. it all comes down to interpretation and point of view, I guess.

 

You're focusing on the wrong person. Reverend Powell (Robert Mitchum) is the villain (King Herod), not the hero. The hero is Rachel (Lillian Gish). And what is her "weapon"? Yes, she shoots him with a shotgun, but her real weapon is the Bible and her faith. And she preaches to the children, which is us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe it's a religious film. And, yet, I love the film. It ranks near the very top for me.

 

Well I do not presume to know how much "fear" you should have of it.. but I can say that if you feel THIS film (HH) was too "religious" you will likely have similar feelings about Sgt York. There are numerous moments throughout the film where people are praying.. quoting scripture, and putting their faith to use in real and practical ways. But again.. in no way do I view it as a "sales pitch" for becoming a Christian so much as it is a story.. about a man.. who happened to come to faith and it changed his life.. and then he carried that change in him throughout the rest of the events in the story.

 

And that's my hope with Howard Hawks. I hope he doesn't preach to me. It's based on a true story and the story of the man is how it is. I'm all right with that, to be sure.

 

I personally think it is a very inspiring story (based at least in part on fact) about one man maintaining his personal integrity and accomplishing an outstanding and truly heroic feat, despite great odds. I hope you will give it a chance someday.. but given the issues you have had w/ HH, I am thinking it is not going to be your "cup o tea" too much.

 

I will try to watch it next week. I doubt it will be my speed because of religion and war, but I need to watch it to find out. I'm banking on Hawks.

 

(Oh..ha.. and PS: aside from the religous stuff.. there is at least one scene that has some "good ole' boy" comedic bar room brawling in it too.. ha. And we all know how highly you regard THAT sort of action in a movie too. HA!)

 

When I took some caps from the film, I saw that scene. It's just funny seeing Gary Cooper as such a guy.

[kingrat]

Frank, SGT. YORK isn't preachy, but it's not one of my favorite Hawks films, either. The WWI scenes are well done. The "Tennessee on the studio backlot" part appeals to me less. Location shooting in the Cumberland Mountains would have been a big plus. Gary Cooper tries hard to play Sgt. York, but at this stage of his career Cooper is a bit too old and a lot too sophisticated to make this really believable for me. On the other hand, Margaret Wycherly as his mother is quite convincing. In this era Hollywood always struggled when trying to portray the rural poor, and SGT. YORK is no exception.

 

You'll probably find enough of interest in SGT. YORK to be glad you watched it. Be sure to tell us all about what you felt.

[OllieTSB]

I'd hate to bring up THE NEXT VOICE YOU HEAR into this.

[rohanaka]

I'd hate to bring up THE NEXT VOICE YOU HEAR into this

 

Ha.. Ollie so would I. It may only be because I have only seen just a part of that movie.. but I have never quite known what to make of it.. but OH me.. just imagine.. if...

[FrankGrimes]

Hey there, Kingrat -- Frank, SGT. YORK isn't preachy, but it's not one of my favorite Hawks films, either.

 

I believe you. I'm expecting it to be the story of a man and his personal conflict of religion and war. In a way, somewhat similar to I Confess.

 

The WWI scenes are well done. The "Tennessee on the studio backlot" part appeals to me less. Location shooting in the Cumberland Mountains would have been a big plus.

 

I liked what I saw of the early love story, but I don't know how that will play out.

 

Gary Cooper tries hard to play Sgt. York, but at this stage of his career Cooper is a bit too old and a lot too sophisticated to make this really believable for me.

 

Yes, I did notice that in the early scenes.

 

In this era Hollywood always struggled when trying to portray the rural poor, and SGT. YORK is no exception.

 

I'm expecting "Hollywood," that's for sure. Sometimes I like that and sometimes I don't. I'm not big on "bio" pics, either. They are usually too predictable.

 

You'll probably find enough of interest in SGT. YORK to be glad you watched it. Be sure to tell us all about what you felt.

 

I have very low expectations for it, which usually works in favor of a film with me.

 

My Hawks list, to date:

 

1. Only Angels Have Wings (# 15 overall)

2. His Girl Friday (# 26)

3. The Big Sleep (# 133)

4. Scarface (# 148)

5. Rio Bravo (# 211)

6. Red River (# 212)

7. To Have and Have Not (# 238)

8. Bringing Up Baby

9. Ball of Fire

10. Twentieth Century

11. Monkey Business

 

I like all of those films but Monkey Business.

[rohanaka]

You're focusing on the wrong person. Reverend Powell (Robert Mitchum) is the villain (King Herod), not the hero. The hero is Rachel (Lillian Gish). And what is her "weapon"? Yes, she shoots him with a shotgun, but her real weapon is the Bible and her faith. And she preaches to the children, which is us.

 

I was only focusing on him because that is who I thought YOU were focusing on in one of your posts.. I may have misread you.

 

And it is true that there are some very BIG moments with Rachel expressing her faith (and even using like a "weapon" to defend her little ones) but I still do not think that is what would qualify this as a "religious" movie.

 

Truthfully.. I think we have different definitions for that. It would not be the first time. I seem to recall having a similar conversation with you regarding your use of the word "boring" to describe a Ford film that you found " intersting and exciting" (if I am quoting you correctly) We evidently march to the beat of our own "DICTIONARIES" ha.

 

I will try to watch it next week. I doubt it will be my speed because of religion and war, but I need to watch it to find out. I'm banking on Hawks

 

Well, let me know what you think of it. I'm tough. ha. I can take it. Oh gee.. I will be on the edge of my seat for sure, now. (Guess I'd better go put another rope into the freezer.. and maybe sharpen my hatpin.) HA!

[FrankGrimes]

I was only focusing on him because that is who I thought YOU were focusing on in one of your posts.. I may have misread you.

 

The "Reverend" is a false prophet. He makes me laugh but he's also frightening. Mitchum is great in such roles.

 

 

Truthfully.. I think we have different definitions for that. It would not be the first time. I seem to recall having a similar conversation with you regarding your use of the word "boring" to describe a Ford film that you found " intersting and exciting" (if I am quoting you correctly) We evidently march to the beat of our own "DICTIONARIES" ha.

 

You are right. For me, it's about what the message is with a film. Hell's Hinges and The Night of the Hunter have religious messages. They both feature characters speaking the Word, primarily to us.

 

Well, let me know what you think of it. I'm tough. ha. I can take it. Oh gee.. I will be on the edge of my seat for sure, now. (Guess I'd better go put another rope into the freezer.. and maybe sharpen my hatpin.) HA!

 

I actually think I'll be okay with the film, I just don't expect to like it. We will see.

[FrankGrimes]

For anyone that is interested, Ride Lonesome is on Wednesday, October 20th at 8:00 PM (EST). It's a western I just recently watched. If you haven't seen it yet, hopefully you can catch it that day.

[MissGoddess]

Oh! Thank you for that. I'll set up a reminder. I haven't seen Ride, Lonesome in a long while and need a refresher.

[FrankGrimes]

 

And lookie here:

 

 

 

Uh-oh! You better be careful with who you share your birthday with!